1. #1
    Fehler's Avatar Senior Member
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    I understand that this plane's performance is modeled after US tests with high grade fuel, and there is a big difference between the US tests and typical Japanese numbers.

    It is possible to tune these planes down a little? Historically, they just werent as fast as they are represented in FB.

    We are already limited in performance on several aircraft because of fuel, and factory/field boosting like the P-47, later war 109 boosts, and the 190 A-4. Thus I ask if the Ki-84 is possibly represented a bit too far towards the "Optimistic" side of the spectrum?

    The plane was a good one, no doubt, but some of the speeds we see in the game were not experienced by real Japanese pilots, and thus are a bit unrealistic.


    http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html
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  2. #2
    Fehler's Avatar Senior Member
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    I understand that this plane's performance is modeled after US tests with high grade fuel, and there is a big difference between the US tests and typical Japanese numbers.

    It is possible to tune these planes down a little? Historically, they just werent as fast as they are represented in FB.

    We are already limited in performance on several aircraft because of fuel, and factory/field boosting like the P-47, later war 109 boosts, and the 190 A-4. Thus I ask if the Ki-84 is possibly represented a bit too far towards the "Optimistic" side of the spectrum?

    The plane was a good one, no doubt, but some of the speeds we see in the game were not experienced by real Japanese pilots, and thus are a bit unrealistic.


    http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html
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  3. #3
    I'm still right behind you Fehler!....finger poised on the gun button!
    In the old days (BEFORE COMPUTERS) I used to ajudicate aerial wargames on a table tennis table and spent hours pouring over data from every book imaginable. But nomatter what I did there was always a complaint from somewhere so I ended up with a 'best data for all aircraft' policy, believe me, its the only way!!
    As I have said in several posts on this....in reality the maximum speed of an aircraft is of very little consequence whilst in combat.
    The only time it comes into play is when you are running or chasing - the same with diving for short periods until trying to regain lost precious height.
    Usually you are in the mid speed range of your flight envelope when skilful manoeuvering and climbing power is what matters.
    So, again, it is best to use the best possible figures quoted for all aircraft....that way there is NO arguement over 'what if'......or...'Fred said'. Let the maths prevail........(somehow I get the feeling that Neal will be here in a minute......I'd better get back to base and land pronto)!!

    Regards,

    SLP
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  4. #4
    LEXX_Luthor's Avatar Senior Member
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    I have a feeling Ki~84 was Superior at lower levels where the internet dogfighters live.

    To find the historically correct results fight with historically correct tactics at high altitude. Also, ask the server admin to set all Ki~84 dogfighter simmers to Rookie like historically correct Japanese pilots in 1945. Then we can get historically correct results.



    Oleg, Ki~84 FM is right on target!


    DM I don't know about.


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    Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

    "You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
    "I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
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  5. #5
    LEXX_Luthor's Avatar Senior Member
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    Also, ask server admin to set up only 4 Flyable Ki~84 and 24 Flyable P~51D for the sea level P~51 dogfighters, then we have historically correct numbers and that will help us get historically correct results.

    Also ask server admin to use big Gulf of Finland map for dogfighting so Ki~84 dogfighters all run out of fuel and crash and P~51 dogfighters win, unless they started their P~51 with the usual 25% fuel--then its a fair fight and they crash too.


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    Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

    "You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
    "I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
    "Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
    :
    "Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
    Close this book forever and don't open anymore!"
    ~Oleg_Maddox

    [This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Wed March 31 2004 at 06:12 AM.]
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  6. #6
    With regard to numbers.....you know and I know that fighter pilots will not engage from a bad position or if they are greatly outnumbered - they would avoid combat. Unless it was fight or die as with e.g. Wake island. If you were caught by suprise - run into the clouds and disappear if you had the edge on performance.
    I think that numbers like 4 to 1 would not really apply locally, globally yes but think of the Red baron's flying circus only engaging with local superiority.
    I don't really know much about this but from the few encounters I have read about......HEARSAY EVIDENCE AGAIN...the combats were fairly even in a lot of cases.
    As regards the pilots....because the KI84 was amongst the best aircraft only the better pilots would fly them. Although designed as an offensive fighter moving deep into enemy territory it was used more and more as a defensive fighter fighting over home territory where the pilots were not captured when shot down but had a nice cup of tea and biscuits. (I'm sure the U.S. pilots would not stoop so low as to try to kill them on their parachutes)........mind you, there was the battle of the Bismark Sea!?
    Oh! one more thing...how often in combat do you find everyone getting in each others way when all attacking one target if you can get one on its own.

    regards,

    SLP
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  7. #7
    LEXX_Luthor's Avatar Senior Member
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    Excellent points...

    Ki~84 used as short range defense...like Fb109 which had similar short range dogfighter superiorty over the USA planes.

    Ki~84 was given to better pilots.

    Engagements that actually happened were more evenly balance numberwise than 4 to 1.

    But the key importance of air warfare when one is struggling is putting planes out there with no opposition if possible, hence the reason why the strategic numbers of P~51 (and others) gave it superiority over Ki~84 even if Ki~84 was superior dogfighter and Ki~84 were "saved" for use when they could be numerically equal in certain fights. When one is obviously winning, then the goal is to go out and find the enemy and finish them off, but by then the outcome of dogfights have already been decided.

    Also, there was not that many better Ki~84 pilots left by 1944.

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    Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

    "You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
    "I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
    "Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
    :
    "Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
    Close this book forever and don't open anymore!"
    ~Oleg_Maddox
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  8. #8
    The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Gale) was numerically the most important fighter serving with the Japanese Army Air Force (JAAF) during the last year of the Pacific War, and was probably the best Japanese fighter aircraft to see large-scale operation during this period of the war. The Hayate was fully the equal of even the most advanced Allied fighters which opposed it, and was often their superior in many important respects. It was well armed and armored, was fast, and was very maneuverable. Although it was generally outnumbered by Allied fighters which opposed it, it nevertheless gave a good account of itself in battles over the Philippines, over Okinawa, and over the Japanese home islands. So desperate was the need for Ki-84s in the last months of the war, Japan was building underground factories with a planned rate of 200 aircraft per month.

    Read more here
    http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...her/ki-84.html
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  9. #9
    mike_espo's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
    The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Gale) was numerically the most important fighter serving with the Japanese Army Air Force (JAAF) during the last year of the Pacific War, and was probably the best Japanese fighter aircraft to see large-scale operation during this period of the war. The Hayate was fully the equal of even the most advanced Allied fighters which opposed it, and was often their superior in many important respects. It was well armed and armored, was fast, and was very maneuverable. Although it was generally outnumbered by Allied fighters which opposed it, it nevertheless gave a good account of itself in battles over the Philippines, over Okinawa, and over the Japanese home islands. So desperate was the need for Ki-84s in the last months of the war, Japan was building underground factories with a planned rate of 200 aircraft per month.

    Read more here
    http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with some of your post. However, I think the ki-43 was still the main fighter of the JAAF. Such was the damage from allied bombings that the quality of all japanese aircraft had become questionable at best. Production of planes from fall of 1944 to the end of the war was curtailed significantly even though the Japanese industry tried to de centralize. Also, most of this production of planes was being conserved for kamikaze attacks during the expected invasion of the Japanese home islands.

    As for the FB ki-84, none of the quality issues are modelled in our sim, so we are getting the best possible product. Most sources state aircraft performance was significantly lower due to lack of quality.

    "Fatte vede che ridemo!"
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  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mike_espo:

    I agree with some of your post. However, I think the ki-43 was still the main fighter of the JAAF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Ki-43 may be the "main" fighter, but the Ki-84 is the "most important" fighter during the last year of the Pacific War.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    As for the FB ki-84, none of the quality issues are modelled in our sim, so we are getting the best possible product. Most sources state aircraft performance was significantly lower due to lack of quality.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    i think the quote about the ki-84 being the equal or superior to allied planes is in spite of quality of production.
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