1. #1
    Clarification: I made two threads. Both talked about the same thing. The first wasn't as well received, so I posted another one where I tried to make more sense, but I still linked them to the original thread I made. I expected people only to read it, but some of them commented on it, thus reviving it. The second one got locked, but it had a clearer explanation than the first one. This is the original first thread, but it contains the contents of the second, clearer thread.

    Here's the link to the official trailer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...z&list=FL6R3z5b7K1fI

    Now, if you didn't read the original thread, I will sum it up for you. In each game, they've renovated the combat system. In AC2, you could disarm enemies and you had alot of new weapons, along with the ability to strafe. AC2 had brought alot of new animations to combat thanks to the increased weapon variety and Ezio's versatility. I believe I can speak for most of us when I say the reason why combat is appealing in Assassin's Creed is because of the gory killing animations and overall fluidity of combat. In AC:B they added kill chains. Personally, I beleive that kill-chains were a step-back because the way they were programmed made the game's combat incredibly repetetive and easy. It also made the game cater less towards stealth and more to being a one man army(and that's not what AC is about). Here is how they can 'Innovate the Combat System'

    This time around, we can revamp the combat system and make it new and exciting again by add a game-mechanic/ability where you will more often than not have to counter-kill more than one enemy. To do this, you would have to perform a counterkill while already in a counter-kill animation. Looking at it from a realistic persective, it makes sense because if an assassin was in a sword fight with multiple guards, and he so-to-say performed a counter-kill on one guard, the other guards wouldn't just stand there and watch their comrad die, they would try to intervien and save him by attacking the assassin.

    Here's how the game-mechanic would function - When you performed a counter-kill, more often than not, the button config would appear. I'm talking about the same config that appeared in the cutscenes in AC2 that let you react during the cutscene. On the config, one or more of the buttons(A,B,X, maybe Y) would be highlighted. If you successfully hit the button before the config disappeared, Ezio would perform another counter or counter-kill on the [second]guard that tried to attack him. If you failed, Ezio would either just perform the counter-kill on the single gaurd, or get hit by the guard, interrupting his original counter-kill and thus you hadn't killed anyone in the counter-kill. The config wouldn't appear for a split second though, I'm thinking somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds, a good mix between difficult and easy.
    This system in combat was used in a similar fashion in the Bourne Conspiracy video-game. If you're confused, watch this video and it will make more sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbk9nE7ztME

    There are some examples in the Revelations premier trailer(the link on top), I will list them for you.

    1:13 - 1:18 Ezio stops the first gaurd from attacking him, jumps over him, and disarms the second guard. On the config, pressing B would activate the animation of disarming the second guard.

    1:18 - 1:20 Ezio disarms the first gaurd, then he evades and kills the second gaurd. After countering and disarming the first guard, pressing X on the config would activate the animation to kill the second guard.

    1:20 - 1:25 Ezio grabs the first guard's hand and sword, he is about to disarm him, but then another gaurd attacks. He takes the first guard'ss sword, and directs it to parry the other gaurd's attack. Then he kicks the second gaurd away, and kills off the other gaurd with his own sword(if this was gameplay, Ezio would keep the sword because he performed a disarm counter-kill. This could be triggered by pressing X on the config to kill the original guard he was disarming. In this scenario, if the button wasn't pressed, the gaurd would have slashed Ezio, Ezio wouldn't have disarmed the first gaurd, and he would lose some health. Or, Ezio would have deflected the second guard's attack, but he wouldn't have killed the first guard, he would have just snatched away the sword since the guard's hand was in a vulnerable position. Also, unlike the Bourne Conspiracy and AC2, time won't slow down or freeze when the config appears.

    1:25 - 1:32 After counter-killing the first gaurd(Ezio snapped his neck), a second gaurd comes up and grabs him from behind. As a third gaurd is about to attack Ezio, he breaks the gaurds hold of him and gets out of the away, the second gaurd gets killed by his own ally. To finish it off Ezio stuns the third guard with a headbutt and knee to this face. This animation could've been done by pressing B on the Config, as B is been used to break an enemy grabs. If the button wasn't pressed, Ezio would've taken ALOT of health, or maybe even died since that would've been a very fatal attack.

    1:32 - 1:36 Ezio stuns a guard(punches him twice in the face) and then another guard tries to attack him. He grabs the guard's arm and redirects the sword into his body.


    There's a couple more examples, but I think you get the idea. Those were just Ezio's unarmed attacks, I can give you a quick example for other weapons like swords. Ezio performs the counter-kill where he slashes a guard across the chest and then stabs him hard in the belly, as another guard tries to hack Ezio, he turns around, rips it out his blade from the first guard's chest and slices the gaurd who was about to attack him in the throat with the tip of his sword or hacks him in the neck.

    Don't pay attention to what buttons I said you would have to press in the examples. This is how the config in Double Counters should work.

    'X' which represents your armed hand, would mostly end up killing the second guard. 'A' which represents your legs, would either evade an attack, stun an enemy by performing a kicking attack, or parry an attack. Keep in mind that evading an attack might result in 'friendly fire' among the guards. 'B' which represents your empty hand, would break a gaurd's hold on you(again, possibly getting him killed), use a gaurd as a human shield, or throw a gaurd away. It could also be used to disarm guards or stun them with your fists.

    The config won't always appear while performing a counter-kill, though and in my idea you would only have to press one button. 75% of the time it would appear, 50% of the time you would have to hit a high-lighted button to avoid being hit, and 25% of the time pressing it wouldn't be necesary to sustaining health. Sometimes, more than one highlighted button would appear. You could have the option to hit either A or B, or X and A, each would perform different animations. You would explore it just to see the cool new combat moves.

    That is the main purpose of the thread, but I have other ideas to contribute to combat. The enemy AI should be smarter, similar to how they were in AC1. In AC1, Templar Knights could all counter/parry/dodge/taunt/grab/perform combos. Sine AC1, Ubisoft has introduced archetypes. Each archetype should be able to perform each of these, but remember that they are supposed to be easier to kill than templars. For example, a Seeker is more likely to block(parry) an attack and a Agile is more likely to taunt and dodge attacks. The guards should also able to perform a defense break, the same way Ezio does(by kicking them). The defense break cannot be countered, and it is meant to keep you from holding the parry/block button the whole time you're fighting someone. Guards cannot perform a defense break while they are attacking, though. If you can still block attacks, but if you're holding it down for like 8 seconds, a guard would perform a defense-break, followed by a combo. In AC1 a combo was when a Templar Knight attacked you about 3 times and you ended up on the ground, it wasted a good portion of your health, too. More skilled guards and Templars would perform defense breaks and combos quicker and more often. For example, if you're fighting a Templar, he can defense-break you if he notices you're holding the deflect button for 3 seconds. That being the highest, a standard guards would perform it after 8 and heavy guards would perorm it after around 5. Note: Some of these abilities for AI should be very uncommon for typical guards, only elite guards or Templars. Such as performing counters and combos.

    One last important thing, something needs to be done about kill-chains. I think kill-chains should only allow you to get a max of 2-4 kills. They were very overpowered in ACB. All you had to do was counter a kill, and begin a kill-chain. If you were good, you could kill +10 gaurds because you were allowed to perform a counter-kill in the middle of a kill-chain animation. This is why Brotherhood got boring, it was exactly the same, and very easy. With this 'Double Counter' idea implemented, to begin a kill-chain you would have to kill an enemy offensively, in other words, with a combo. This was what kill-chains were intended for: to promote offensive combat. You shouldn't be allowed to counter in a kill-chain. You would be able to evade(RT+A) an attack if you were in the middle of a kill-chain, but you would not be able to perform a counter-attack, this way your kill-chain would be interrupted. This would work very will if you implemented the Double Counter idea, because you wouldn't be able to begin a kill-chain after performing a double-counter.

    My 'Double Counter' idea is very good because it would be a great addition the combat system that Ubisoft tries to revamp each game, it would add tons, maybe hundreds of cool, gory, and badass animations, making combat very new and refreshing. Combat would even be more diverse because offensive and defensive combat would be so different, but both being effective ways to clear an area.

    Thoughts? Other Ideas? And please, I am pushing for this because I love the AC sereies, it is my favorite franchise. I was let-down a little by AC:B and I don't want this franchise to become one of those repetetive, the same thing re-done each year type of games. I only ask that you comment on this discussion and come back to reply to other comments so that Ubisoft can notice this thread. They're read it if its one of the most discussed.

    Here's the conclusion for what should be done to combat

    -The Double Counter mechanic
    -Nerfing of kill-chains
    -Improving enemy AI

    P.S. I don't want combat to be HARD in Revelations. It should take skill but your skills shouldn't be strained when fighting even 3-4 guards. An average amount of guards is between 3-6, consisting of mainly normal guards, and maybe one or two seekers/brutes. A skilled player who is adept with the combat system will kill an average group of guards quickly, losing minimal health. A novice player facing the same group will lose some or even a good amount of health, and he will take more time than the advanced player because he will have difficulty countering, starting kill-chains, etc. This skillset should escalate so that if you are up agains 15 guards, even though a skilled player might enjoy that challenge, a novice player would run away, because fleeing would be the more rational option.
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  2. #2
    kriegerdesgottes's Avatar Senior Member
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    I don't know I like the chain mechanic and yes it can be easy but it's not like it doesn't take skill because you have to be constantly watching all the guards around you (assuming you by some miracle come across more than 4 at once) and sure, the likelyhood of you being killed in combat is small but who cares. I don't like being killed but I feel like you can get really good at the combat in ACB if you want to or you can stand there and just block but if the guard has a lance or axe then you have to rethink your strategy so I don't get why people don't like the combat. The combat in two was too annoying if anything because you could block or swing over and over and the guard would just deflect your swing and although I didn't have a problem at all with the combat in AC I or II I do like Brotherhood's combat a lot too.
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  3. #3
    iN3krO's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by kriegerdesgotte:
    I don't know I like the chain mechanic and yes it can be easy but it's not like it doesn't take skill because you have to be constantly watching all the guards around you (assuming you by some miracle come across more than 4 at once) and sure, the likelyhood of you being killed in combat is small but who cares. I don't like being killed but I feel like you can get really good at the combat in ACB if you want to or you can stand there and just block but if the guard has a lance or axe then you have to rethink your strategy so I don't get why people don't like the combat. The combat in two was too annoying if anything because you could block or swing over and over and the guard would just deflect your swing and although I didn't have a problem at all with the combat in AC I or II I do like Brotherhood's combat a lot too.
    All u have to do is to attack and counter-attak if you see a guard attaking you... using guard down feature from ac1 you could be able to do killstreaks only if the guards are "distracted" which would force you to look for the guards arround you..
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  4. #4
    kriegerdesgottes's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yeah but ACI still had no challenge to the combat whatsoever and don't get me wrong I still love that game but it's combat was annoying too where you hit the guy and he smacks you down then another guy hits you while you are on the ground and Altair had about 6 counter moves that he did over and over. It was def fun at the time but when I play that game now I get bored real fast and I used to sit and play it for hours daily.
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  5. #5
    iN3krO's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by kriegerdesgotte:
    Yeah but ACI still had no challenge to the combat whatsoever and don't get me wrong I still love that game but it's combat was annoying too where you hit the guy and he smacks you down then another guy hits you while you are on the ground and Altair had about 6 counter moves that he did over and over. It was def fun at the time but when I play that game now I get bored real fast and I used to sit and play it for hours daily.
    Are you kidding me? LOOOL the guards smacking you down and another guy hitting you was the best part of the game, you had to play with ur mind not like now... I still play Ac1 and i'm less boring playing Ac1 instead of AcB...

    Don't care for the animations... they are part of the looking but i prefer having a bad-looking game with good gameplay rather than having a wonderfull game with bad gameplay...

    Exemple: Cs1.6 is better than CoD, however cod is more realistic and more enjoyable -> at pubs <-

    __________________________________________

    Maybe it had no challenge but the combat was time wasting (realistic) so you would prefer acomplish a mission thought stealthy ways instead of going thought agresive ways (like real assassins would prefer)

    Even so, the roberto de sables battle (with those templars) was hard for me... I had to repeat it like 8 times (or more)... i don't remember any mission i had to do that in Ac2/AcB o.o maybe they were too easy no?
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  6. #6
    ShaneO7K's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by daniel_gervide:

    Exemple: Cs1.6 is better than CoD, however cod is more realistic and more enjoyable -> at pubs <-

    CoD and realisim....what?
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  7. #7
    iN3krO's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daniel_gervide:

    Exemple: Cs1.6 is better than CoD, however cod is more realistic and more enjoyable -> at pubs <-

    CoD and realisim....what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Have you played Counter-Strike?... it's much more false than cod... learn to compare games?
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  8. #8
    kriegerdesgottes's Avatar Senior Member
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    I'm sorry it sounded like you said ACI is more enjoyable than ACB and my head exploded so you are probably one of those people who thinks oh the game should be harder because we all know that difficulty is fun. lol You know what I hate most about Math? it's freaking hard. I don't play games to have try as hard as I can to kill a guy. I play AC to feel like a badass without trying too hard. And sure I will agree there should be some level of challenge and difficulty but I've said it before and I'll say it again AC does an ok job with it. You can play the game and just counter and kill or you can dodge attacks and hit them from the side and do an instant kill or you can just counter or jump on a lift and crush the guys underneath you can make it fun. It's just like people who complain about it being not stealthy enough, If you want to play the game stealthily, no one is stopping you from doing so.
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  9. #9
    ShaneO7K's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by daniel_gervide:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daniel_gervide:

    Exemple: Cs1.6 is better than CoD, however cod is more realistic and more enjoyable -> at pubs <-

    CoD and realisim....what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Have you played Counter-Strike?... it's much more false than cod... learn to compare games? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's a little stupid trying to compare a game which is around ten years old and a game which is much more modern.

    Of course it won't be as realistic as CoD, try and pick something more fair for a game to be compared with rather than something thats age will let it down.

    So i'll finish this from what you just said to me..."learn to compare games?"
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  10. #10
    @kriegerdesgotte
    I added a clarification to the post so you might better understand what I meant. Also, the chain mechanic really doesn't take skill. All you have to do is counter one gaurd(and the counter animation is longer than it was in AC1 and 2) and you can kill atleast 4 gaurds before you get hit again. A skilled player can counter gaurds while in a kill-chain so he can easily take on +10 gaurds, the same would apply for this. A skilled player, who could anylize the gaurd's movements would be very good at this combat system. The combat system is all about hand-eye coordination and reflexes.
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