1. #141
    YodaMan 3D's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by DarkKnight27us Go to original post
    What in God's name are you talking about? Do I think MM in the raid is a mistake, yes. I think it's a dumpster fire waiting to happen. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. How does that mean I'm some kind of "elitist" that only wants to play with hand picked players or that using MM for daily missions or just random missions I want to return isn't my "preferred style"? Also, how does my stance on raid MM or even my original post equate to "I hate all skill builds" in your head?

    Maybe you should stop making up these fantasies in your head and just read what I actually write.

    I have a problem with cluster mines. That's it. I was very specific in what my issue was and what I thought some solutions might be.

    How people are taking that to mean I hate all skill builds or don't want to MM is beyond my understanding.
    You are one of those who stated, that players won't communicate and that you always had bad luck when it came to MM. That was why you stated that MM wouldn't work for the Raid. If you don't like MM, then why do you use it.

    Next according you, you only got to level 15 in TD. Which means you may not have been around for the "NERFINGs". What was that you ask, PvP players that preferred to "Chicken Dance", hated SBs and wanted everyone to run Gun Builds or DPS Builds. So when anything that a SB used, required "NERFING" in their minds. Seekers, Sticky Bombs, Turrets, Healing. It all got nerfed, why would that happen. Cause some DPS player got his feelings hurt. They attacked one after another til it got to the point when using SBs was a wasted effort.

    So my fantasies as you put it. Is based off your statements and the experiences that many of us went through in TD. So when you get your wish that seekers become useless. Then where will you aim your sights and if its not you, then there will be some else who gets triggered by SBs and start asking for Nerfs. Seeing how you are against MM, then use your Clan or Discord and handpick your dreamteam that doesn't use Seekers. You don't play PvP. So you can enjoy your game without attacking someone elses
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  2. #142
    Originally Posted by DarkKnight27us Go to original post
    ... They really need to do a general balance pass to bring up the stuff that's underperforming and lower the stuff that's overperforming.
    What does that mean though? What numbers are you suggesting? What is the maximum armour, health, HZP, DTE, weapon damage, healing etc etc that you feel would balance the game. It isn't just about damage or just about Seekers -- Seekers against someone running 50% explosive res are crap by the way.

    A generalised statement about balance doesn't enlighten any of us as to what it is you want. Even then it's just your opinion which is of no lesser or greater value than the opinion of anyone else. Thus far all you have provided are anectodal comments about your own unique experience in the game which will not translate to the wider community.

    Is 600k armour 0K?
    Is 19m Nemesis OK?
    Is 3-11-7 OK?
    Is 2.5m Diamond back OK?
    Is 1.4m AR OK?
    Is 1m Seeker OK?
    Is 2.4m Bombardier OK?
    Is 69k Assauklt Turret OK?
    Is 90k Flame Turret OK?
    Is 4m Stinger Hive Ok
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...



    For this discussion to move past opinion we need to start looking at facts and how you see these in relation to your beliefs about Cluster Mines.
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  3. #143
    Originally Posted by DarkKnight27us Go to original post
    Maybe it's the gloves, maybe it's not. I can only tell you that I see this daily and usually multiple times a day. They really need to do a general balance pass to bring up the stuff that's underperforming and lower the stuff that's overperforming.
    If it's the daily challenge missions that are an issue then it's probably not a balance issue at all. There's a huge difference between god rolled and average gear, that can account for a lot. Secondly non invade missions are easier than invaded missions; Black Tusk are generally harder NPC's.

    There's also heroic invaded and the raid discovery and the normal raid above that. All builds will need to be capable of doing that conten, which means non invaded challenge is going to be a lot easier. Seekers that do ok on the raid will most likely obliterate anything in non invade missions.

    Additionally players that are used to the higher difficulties will almost certainly perform a lot better in the lower difficulty content. Because of they are used to.

    Is it possible what you have an issue with is the way clusters affect the gameplay, rather than any balance issue with the cluster seeker skill itself?
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  4. #144
    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    What does that mean though? What numbers are you suggesting? What is the maximum armour, health, HZP, DTE, weapon damage, healing etc etc that you feel would balance the game. It isn't just about damage or just about Seekers -- Seekers against someone running 50% explosive res are crap by the way.

    A generalised statement about balance doesn't enlighten any of us as to what it is you want. Even then it's just your opinion which is of no lesser or greater value than the opinion of anyone else. Thus far all you have provided are anectodal comments about your own unique experience in the game which will not translate to the wider community.

    Is 600k armour 0K?
    Is 19m Nemesis OK?
    Is 3-11-7 OK?
    Is 2.5m Diamond back OK?
    Is 1.4m AR OK?
    Is 1m Seeker OK?
    Is 2.4m Bombardier OK?
    Is 69k Assauklt Turret OK?
    Is 90k Flame Turret OK?
    Is 4m Stinger Hive Ok
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...



    For this discussion to move past opinion we need to start looking at facts and how you see these in relation to your beliefs about Cluster Mines.
    A pity that I only have two thumps.

    Besides, there will be four exotic items more released (6 in complete), so the next outrage and (being) mortally offended (that is very important) can already be practiced.
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  5. #145
    Originally Posted by YodaMan 3D Go to original post
    You are one of those who stated, that players won't communicate and that you always had bad luck when it came to MM. That was why you stated that MM wouldn't work for the Raid. If you don't like MM, then why do you use it.
    You really need to pay better attention to what I actually say and stop making up stuff I never said. I have said, MM for the raid would be a disaster because people don't communicate. Why do I know this? Because I have run missions and even the Discovery Mode raid with MM and guess what, no one communicates. So MM for the normal raid, where communication actually matters, is a problem. I've never made any claim about bad luck or good luck when it comes to MM and I definitely never said I don't like MM. Those are things you've made up in your head that I've never actually said.

    Originally Posted by YodaMan 3D Go to original post
    Next according you, you only got to level 15 in TD. Which means you may not have been around for the "NERFINGs". What was that you ask, PvP players that preferred to "Chicken Dance", hated SBs and wanted everyone to run Gun Builds or DPS Builds. So when anything that a SB used, required "NERFING" in their minds. Seekers, Sticky Bombs, Turrets, Healing. It all got nerfed, why would that happen. Cause some DPS player got his feelings hurt. They attacked one after another til it got to the point when using SBs was a wasted effort.
    Now you're really just making up stuff. I said I have 4 characters that got to end game on PS4 (I ran them all through the first Incursion and some of Underground) but on computer I didn't have any past lvl 15 for TD1. Because you can't transfer your characters I had to start over and the group I was playing with didn't care for the extreme focus the game put on the DZ so we stopped playing The Division and moved on to Destiny. And yes, there were plenty of PvP players calling for nerfs, but that's because PvE and PvP need to be balance separately, they're essentially two completely different games and what works great in one might be severely under, or over, powered in the other.

    And again, I've been a proponent for more build diversity and more powerful skill builds in THIS game because it was needed. But now I think this one very specific skill is too overpowered.

    Originally Posted by YodaMan 3D Go to original post
    So my fantasies as you put it. Is based off your statements and the experiences that many of us went through in TD. So when you get your wish that seekers become useless. Then where will you aim your sights and if its not you, then there will be some else who gets triggered by SBs and start asking for Nerfs. Seeing how you are against MM, then use your Clan or Discord and handpick your dreamteam that doesn't use Seekers. You don't play PvP. So you can enjoy your game without attacking someone elses
    No, your fantasies are based off you're imagination and inability to understand what others are actually saying. Even in this last part, you claim I want all seekers to become useless, please point out where I said that. All I've said is that the cluster mines (not ALL seekers) seem way too powerful to me and need to be toned down a bit. And again, where have I ever said I'm "against MM" that wasn't directly in relation to the normal raid? And you really need to take a serious step back if you think I'm attaching you or anyone else's play style.
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  6. #146
    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    For this discussion to move past opinion we need to start looking at facts and how you see these in relation to your beliefs about Cluster Mines.
    For starters, most of what you said doesn't matter to me since it seems to mostly pertain to PvP. Next, get the devs to release all the hard numbers they have on the game so that we can have all the pertinent data. Finally, then we can go through the hard data numbers and help the devs balance and fix things.

    But if you think having a single build that out performs any other build in the game is a good thing, I guess there's nothing else to discuss.
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  7. #147
    YodaMan 3D's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by DarkKnight27us Go to original post
    You really need to pay better attention to what I actually say and stop making up stuff I never said. I have said, MM for the raid would be a disaster because people don't communicate. Why do I know this? Because I have run missions and even the Discovery Mode raid with MM and guess what, no one communicates. So MM for the normal raid, where communication actually matters, is a problem. I've never made any claim about bad luck or good luck when it comes to MM and I definitely never said I don't like MM. Those are things you've made up in your head that I've never actually said.



    Now you're really just making up stuff. I said I have 4 characters that got to end game on PS4 (I ran them all through the first Incursion and some of Underground) but on computer I didn't have any past lvl 15 for TD1. Because you can't transfer your characters I had to start over and the group I was playing with didn't care for the extreme focus the game put on the DZ so we stopped playing The Division and moved on to Destiny. And yes, there were plenty of PvP players calling for nerfs, but that's because PvE and PvP need to be balance separately, they're essentially two completely different games and what works great in one might be severely under, or over, powered in the other.

    And again, I've been a proponent for more build diversity and more powerful skill builds in THIS game because it was needed. But now I think this one very specific skill is too overpowered.



    No, your fantasies are based off you're imagination and inability to understand what others are actually saying. Even in this last part, you claim I want all seekers to become useless, please point out where I said that. All I've said is that the cluster mines (not ALL seekers) seem way too powerful to me and need to be toned down a bit. And again, where have I ever said I'm "against MM" that wasn't directly in relation to the normal raid? And you really need to take a serious step back if you think I'm attaching you or anyone else's play style.
    Then use your Clan or Discord Channel for grouping up for these missions. Then you get to handpick who you run with. Seekers won't be a problem for you then.
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  8. #148
    Originally Posted by YodaMan 3D Go to original post
    Then use your Clan or Discord Channel for grouping up for these missions. Then you get to handpick who you run with. Seekers won't be a problem for you then.
    So your solution is that I don't bother playing the game with new people and that I avoid meeting new people because there is one build out there that is severely overperforming?

    Also, are you jealous of people in clans and that can use Discord or something? You seem to have a very unusual fixation on those things.
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  9. #149
    Solkard's Avatar Senior Member
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    I'm assuming this must be something to do with the new gloves, because I've had a full Destructive/China explosives set since before the update and the only improvement I've noticed using seekers, is a more managable cooldown. I've tried the cluster and single seekers and they still aren't as effective as just shooting enemies with my gun. Unless someone is playing on normal/story mode or just potato at aiming, I'm calling BS on seekers being OP.
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  10. #150
    LubzinNJ's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Solkard Go to original post
    I'm assuming this must be something to do with the new gloves, because I've had a full Destructive/China explosives set since before the update and the only improvement I've noticed using seekers, is a more managable cooldown. I've tried the cluster and single seekers and they still aren't as effective as just shooting enemies with my gun. Unless someone is playing on normal/story mode or just potato at aiming, I'm calling BS on seekers being OP.
    It's 100% the gloves. Don't have them yet, my explosive seeker build pre-TU5 was just as effect and in terms of overall damage in a mission was doing just as much compared to everyone else. That and because skills got an "upgrade" more people are taking the time to make the build, so people are seeing it more often in game.

    When you add the ability to infused insane damage onto them from the gloves yes they probably can seem OP....but that is the gloves not the skill.
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