1. #21
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    His mix up of UB feint into neutral bash doesn't catch back dodges and only catches side dodges if both his opponent dodged on indicator and Jorge both buffers his feint and the neutral GB input. So no. it's not good at catching dodges.

    By that logic HA should be exclusive to heavies or hybrids. yet berzerker has it. Give me an actual reason please.

    Hito's dodge heavy has better range and tracking and is more useful to catch because you can delay it. Jorge's has a very very small delay window and is a full second. Even if the person early rolls the move will still not catch because it doesn't have the range.


    In order to be a good ganker you need to be able to enable you and your allies. You need to have good constant pressure. Jorge cannot enable ganks when the person has stamina. he's got nothing to threaten with when the person has stamina because his bashes are dumb easy to avoid and do not confirm damage. Not to mention that their bashes which feeds stupid amounts of revenge. So Jorge plays on the external waiting to be enabled. Thus not a good ganker. Wipping out 80 damage isn't a plus when any other good hero in 4's can properly gank with someone else and do just as much if not more while also bringing other things to the table.

    Jorge is one of the worst heros to bring in 4's. He's only semi decent in duels.
    The heroe is design to be a Harrasser at close range. Then most of his mooves have a short range. He can still catch his opponent with GB feint if he early back Dodge.
    About side one, as i said it works if opponents make a mistake and early dodge.
    Considering the dmg and the shield Jorme can get from a hammer slam i am fine with it not being too easy to get (while it is not hard to perform as it is right now).

    Since beginning of FH HA was Given to any type of heroe, not 400ms lights.

    I dont have the distance numbers in mind but i definiltly dont have this feeling when it comes to range between HK and Jorme Dodge heavy.
    Anyway why should he has a better one while his Dodge already have HA and feintability advantage ?

    I know, this is exactly what Craic said. But having a bash which you can coordinate with a heavy from team mate, UB and such oos pressure plus the feats he has are not nothing when it come to gank someone or fight in a XvX.

    I agree he is semi decent in 1v1. Specially on PC. Thats why i said somewhere arround B tier.

    But not as trash in 4s.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
    The heroe is design to be a Harrasser at close range. Then most of his mooves have a short range. He can still catch his opponent with GB feint if he early back Dodge.
    About side one, as i said it works if opponents make a mistake and early dodge.
    Considering the dmg and the shield Jorme can get from a hammer slam i am fine with it not being too easy to get (while it is not hard to perform as it is right now).

    Since beginning of FH HA was Given to any type of heroe, not 400ms lights.

    I dont have the distance numbers in mind but i definiltly dont have this feeling when it comes to range between HK and Jorme Dodge heavy.
    Anyway why should he has a better one while his Dodge already have HA and feintability advantage ?

    I know, this is exactly what Craic said. But having a bash which you can coordinate with a heavy from team mate, UB and such oos pressure plus the feats he has are not nothing when it come to gank someone or fight in a XvX.

    I agree he is semi decent in 1v1. Specially on PC. Thats why i said somewhere arround B tier.

    But not as trash in 4s.
    Zerker and BP are both big threats up close and don't have decent range. But they still perform a lot better than Jorge does and it's far harder to avoid their pressure compared to Jorge.
    The shield is gone in 10 seconds and is easily shredded (barring perks) if he hammar slams near anyone in a team fight or while being anti ganked.

    400ms lights exist on hybrids. Both Highlander and aramusha are considered to be half heavy and they both have a 400ms option. Blocking top and reacting to sides will still be possible against my changes. all the changes do is give him a real chance at landing chip damage which he sorely needs right now. Would you rather they make it so his bashes guarantee damage instead? Because that's the only other option for him to get chip damage in.

    Jorge's dodge heavy can only be delayed 300ms into her forward dodge. Hitokiri can delay up to 500ms into her dodge. This extra delay and the fact that it's 700ms with the nerfs to unlocking and unlock into rolls has made it a far more consistent roll catcher. Jorge's can't reliably do so because it's slower and he has no window to really delay it. Because it's entirely too easy to avoid his mid chain mix ups. And his mix ups with his forward dodge heavy are far too reactable.

    Let's put up a common scenario:

    You manage to hit me with the neutral bash which puts me OOS. You light into unblockable feint and go for a GB. I tech the GB because I read the mix up right and then I back dodge immediately. I'm now out of your range. You immediately forward dodge heavy. You let the heavy rip. I parry it because it's 1000ms. I get to back away more because you're likely oos now. You soft feint to GB. I tech it and get another free back dodge because that is reactable. You hard feint into neutral bash. I back dodge because it has poor reach and is reactable at 600ms.

    I now have my stamina again. This is why his forward heavy isn't good at chase down. Increasing it's range/tracking should better help him punish people who buffer into rolls without severely impacting the dodge heavy mix up against someone playing properly.

    I don't know what else to really say. Jorge needs you to be OOS in order to do anything. that in itself is a problem when he can't reliably OOS someone. In a team fight scenario you're already timing your dodges correctly due to unblockables. and since his are poor at dealing with that they don't pose a big enough threat. You are seriously playing wrong if you end up OOS in 4's. It's just far too easy to ignore Jorge. And as I already said. Even if I accept his "easier" to setup big damage punishes as a positive that doesn't carry enough weight when you have other ganks that compete with his damage and they're done with heros who can do more than Jorge can in regards to 4's.

    Hell. I can and have taken centurion into 4's with my group and we get the big boy punishes all the time because I can access pin all the time and setup both me and my team. I understand that the big boy is a menace to uncoordinated random pub matches. And I understand the fear that buffing him would give someone who plays in that situation. Unfortunately that doesn't change anything and should be a mentality that you dropped ages ago. Heros need to be healthy and viable in higher play in order for the game as a whole to flow better. Otherwise you create very disjointed experiences which doesn't do anyone let alone the game any good.

    Perhaps some of my suggestions might be a bigger problem than I can think of. But that doesn't change that Jorge needs big buffs and he's not acceptable in his current state. If you can't even agree to that then there isn't really anything to discuss.
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  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Zerker and BP are both big threats up close and don't have decent range. But they still perform a lot better than Jorge does and it's far harder to avoid their pressure compared to Jorge.
    The shield is gone in 10 seconds and is easily shredded (barring perks) if he hammar slams near anyone in a team fight or while being anti ganked.

    400ms lights exist on hybrids. Both Highlander and aramusha are considered to be half heavy and they both have a 400ms option. Blocking top and reacting to sides will still be possible against my changes. all the changes do is give him a real chance at landing chip damage which he sorely needs right now. Would you rather they make it so his bashes guarantee damage instead? Because that's the only other option for him to get chip damage in.

    Jorge's dodge heavy can only be delayed 300ms into her forward dodge. Hitokiri can delay up to 500ms into her dodge. This extra delay and the fact that it's 700ms with the nerfs to unlocking and unlock into rolls has made it a far more consistent roll catcher. Jorge's can't reliably do so because it's slower and he has no window to really delay it. Because it's entirely too easy to avoid his mid chain mix ups. And his mix ups with his forward dodge heavy are far too reactable.

    Let's put up a common scenario:

    You manage to hit me with the neutral bash which puts me OOS. You light into unblockable feint and go for a GB. I tech the GB because I read the mix up right and then I back dodge immediately. I'm now out of your range. You immediately forward dodge heavy. You let the heavy rip. I parry it because it's 1000ms. I get to back away more because you're likely oos now. You soft feint to GB. I tech it and get another free back dodge because that is reactable. You hard feint into neutral bash. I back dodge because it has poor reach and is reactable at 600ms.

    I now have my stamina again. This is why his forward heavy isn't good at chase down. Increasing it's range/tracking should better help him punish people who buffer into rolls without severely impacting the dodge heavy mix up against someone playing properly.

    I don't know what else to really say. Jorge needs you to be OOS in order to do anything. that in itself is a problem when he can't reliably OOS someone. In a team fight scenario you're already timing your dodges correctly due to unblockables. and since his are poor at dealing with that they don't pose a big enough threat. You are seriously playing wrong if you end up OOS in 4's. It's just far too easy to ignore Jorge. And as I already said. Even if I accept his "easier" to setup big damage punishes as a positive that doesn't carry enough weight when you have other ganks that compete with his damage and they're done with heros who can do more than Jorge can in regards to 4's.

    Hell. I can and have taken centurion into 4's with my group and we get the big boy punishes all the time because I can access pin all the time and setup both me and my team. I understand that the big boy is a menace to uncoordinated random pub matches. And I understand the fear that buffing him would give someone who plays in that situation. Unfortunately that doesn't change anything and should be a mentality that you dropped ages ago. Heros need to be healthy and viable in higher play in order for the game as a whole to flow better. Otherwise you create very disjointed experiences which doesn't do anyone let alone the game any good.

    Perhaps some of my suggestions might be a bigger problem than I can think of. But that doesn't change that Jorge needs big buffs and he's not acceptable in his current state. If you can't even agree to that then there isn't really anything to discuss.
    Ok, but if all heroes got Zerk pressure for example 4s would just be a big mess.
    Devs already said they want to makes heroes as viable as possible in 1v1 without making the 4v4 experience impossible to deal with.

    Atm a lot of different type of heroes have 400ms lights. Even big daddy law. But these things are not good design wise Imo and arent a reason to make others mistakes like this.

    I understand your scenario, but again you need perfect conditions to deal with Jorme oos pressure like this. Looking at the amount of hammer slam going on currently reality even at decent level isnt that easy.

    I also dislike when i hear he "cant do anything" if you are not oos. He still has a kit with HA, undodgeable and UB. I 100% agree he doesnt have the best mix up on that but still he can fight someone outside of oos situation. Plus he can heal himself on hits which only Shaman, Shugo, Shinobi and Shaolin can do in the entire roaster (with his bash) outside of him.
    He just became far more dangerous once you got oos and it oblige you to be carefull and to be less offensive. Not in the same way than Hito but Jorme also is killing offense as you always fear to throw some feints and then got oos after one bash or just got parried once and get the hammer slam...

    To recap, i definitly agree with the vision that all heroes should be viable and as i said i agree his hitbox should be improve so you cant ignore him too easly.
    But this is really the only thing i could agree with when it come to buffs.

    My fear was that the team only hear the buff some people have mentionned for him but not the nerf.
    Just look how Ubi insulin only talk about your buff proposal he passed to the team but nothing about your nerf proposal.. do you get what i mean ?

    We should be carefull at how we express what we wish for him.
    I and many people here said Hito for example needed both Nerf and Buff. It was pretty clear.

    But about Jorme i feel like we only hear about the buff from the top players.
    In your OP there are some nerf proposal i really like too. My point is only to make people understand a healthy change would be both nerf and buff as you suggested even if i may not agree with all of them.
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  4. #24
    Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
    Ok, but if all heroes got Zerk pressure for example 4s would just be a big mess.
    Devs already said they want to makes heroes as viable as possible in 1v1 without making the 4v4 experience impossible to deal with.

    Atm a lot of different type of heroes have 400ms lights. Even big daddy law. But these things are not good design wise Imo and arent a reason to make others mistakes like this.

    I understand your scenario, but again you need perfect conditions to deal with Jorme oos pressure like this. Looking at the amount of hammer slam going on currently reality even at decent level isnt that easy.

    I also dislike when i hear he "cant do anything" if you are not oos. He still has a kit with HA, undodgeable and UB. I 100% agree he doesnt have the best mix up on that but still he can fight someone outside of oos situation. Plus he can heal himself on hits which only Shaman, Shugo, Shinobi and Shaolin can do in the entire roaster (with his bash) outside of him.
    He just became far more dangerous once you got oos and it oblige you to be carefull and to be less offensive. Not in the same way than Hito but Jorme also is killing offense as you always fear to throw some feints and then got oos after one bash or just got parried once and get the hammer slam...

    To recap, i definitly agree with the vision that all heroes should be viable and as i said i agree his hitbox should be improve so you cant ignore him too easly.
    But this is really the only thing i could agree with when it come to buffs.

    My fear was that the team only hear the buff some people have mentionned for him but not the nerf.
    Just look how Ubi insulin only talk about your buff proposal he passed to the team but nothing about your nerf proposal.. do you get what i mean ?

    We should be carefull at how we express what we wish for him.
    I and many people here said Hito for example needed both Nerf and Buff. It was pretty clear.

    But about Jorme i feel like we only hear about the buff from the top players.
    In your OP there are some nerf proposal i really like too. My point is only to make people understand a healthy change would be both nerf and buff as you suggested even if i may not agree with all of them.
    I mean that's a fair point. But not what i'm asking for. Zerk's pressure is very different because of his ability to cancel recoveries with movement. And yes that is true. But I don't believe my changes drastically push Jorge in any direction. At best he might become high B or low A with my suggestions in 4's. His kit still heavily revolves around bashes and bashes feed revenge. Meaning he can't be as aggressive as he'd like to be.

    I'll have to disagree. I think 400ms lights can be good design wise if placed in the right places. The reason I don't see giving Jorge a 400ms light option is a problem is because his light finishers both in and out of mix ups are not great. Undodgable property makes them very easy to deflect. And because his combo bash doesn't chain there isn't much of an incentive to early dodge. It's possible that they might become some what threatening if they allow you to combo into finishers off of the in combo bash in the future. If you were cool with letting that happen I could drop back asking for 400ms lights. But i'd still like the lights to be a little faster than 500ms.

    I wouldn't call it perfect situations to be honest. The most common experience I see from people being OOSed by Jorge is from his neutral bash. If you're already doing a good job at spacing him it's very easy to avoid his pressure even during OOS. I understand this is a bit harder when in a 4's situation. But I still don't think it's often that you'd be OOS in 4's.
    I understand the distaste of hyperbolic verbiage as I have it too. However I can only feel like it's the only way to get someone's attention about a terrible situation.

    Maybe looking at the individual buffs overwhelmed you. So instead i'll just give you the goals of my rework. Maybe that will help you come around. Or at least more easily understand my and other people's perspectives on the hero.


    My goal was to address his bad anti gank and some what make his ganks/team fights more palletable. I set out to do this by trying to give him some actual chip damage potential through his bashes, make his mid combo mix up more consistent, and rounded out the edges with better recoveries, hitboxes, and semi better chase down.
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  5. #25
    Best adjustment - delete the character and try again. Its flawed from the ground up it & should never have left the drawing board. A character built to stop other characters fighting properly is just such a terrible idea it takes the cake as worst launch to date

    I have never said it before but this one needs a hard reset and whoever thought it was a good idea needs to get moved away from control of characters

    Like sieg said nerfs would have to come with buffs, but I just cant see a way to get such a terribly thought through design to function without either breaking it to useless or making it just a toxic presence in the game outside of a massive overhaul of the kit
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  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I mean that's a fair point. But not what i'm asking for. Zerk's pressure is very different because of his ability to cancel recoveries with movement. And yes that is true. But I don't believe my changes drastically push Jorge in any direction. At best he might become high B or low A with my suggestions in 4's. His kit still heavily revolves around bashes and bashes feed revenge. Meaning he can't be as aggressive as he'd like to be.

    I'll have to disagree. I think 400ms lights can be good design wise if placed in the right places. The reason I don't see giving Jorge a 400ms light option is a problem is because his light finishers both in and out of mix ups are not great. Undodgable property makes them very easy to deflect. And because his combo bash doesn't chain there isn't much of an incentive to early dodge. It's possible that they might become some what threatening if they allow you to combo into finishers off of the in combo bash in the future. If you were cool with letting that happen I could drop back asking for 400ms lights. But i'd still like the lights to be a little faster than 500ms.

    I wouldn't call it perfect situations to be honest. The most common experience I see from people being OOSed by Jorge is from his neutral bash. If you're already doing a good job at spacing him it's very easy to avoid his pressure even during OOS. I understand this is a bit harder when in a 4's situation. But I still don't think it's often that you'd be OOS in 4's.
    I understand the distaste of hyperbolic verbiage as I have it too. However I can only feel like it's the only way to get someone's attention about a terrible situation.

    Maybe looking at the individual buffs overwhelmed you. So instead i'll just give you the goals of my rework. Maybe that will help you come around. Or at least more easily understand my and other people's perspectives on the hero.


    My goal was to address his bad anti gank and some what make his ganks/team fights more palletable. I set out to do this by trying to give him some actual chip damage potential through his bashes, make his mid combo mix up more consistent, and rounded out the edges with better recoveries, hitboxes, and semi better chase down.
    I dont think your ideas would bring his pressure on the Zerk level either. But as we look to agree about thats good it doesnt.

    Lets agree to disagree on the 400ms part. Tbh this is because i would really like that FH try to keep a minimum of difference between types of heroes. Since s8 the game has start to loose this with Tiandi and JJ and i just wouldnt like to see all heroes having the same tools in their kit regardless of their Tank or assassin label.
    Their current test with the possible 33ms variation would maybe allow to establish new rules about it in the futur.
    I would be fine for his combo bash to chain rather then giving him 400ms tbh yes. It look more appropriate.

    Thats true anti gank is not something he is good at and your suggestion could help him in this area without making him too good in 1v1 thanks to the stam dmg nerf etc.
    In group fights he is not that bad if he is at max reknown imo. It depends if you want to use scout or not (thats a good feat for him) but if you keep using the Thor hammer this can definitly turn a group fight into an almost guaranteed win. But yeah his efficiency relly on a 4th feat which is not great either.
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  7. #27
    Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
    I dont think your ideas would bring his pressure on the Zerk level either. But as we look to agree about thats good it doesnt.

    Lets agree to disagree on the 400ms part. Tbh this is because i would really like that FH try to keep a minimum of difference between types of heroes. Since s8 the game has start to loose this with Tiandi and JJ and i just wouldnt like to see all heroes having the same tools in their kit regardless of their Tank or assassin label.
    Their current test with the possible 33ms variation would maybe allow to establish new rules about it in the futur.
    I would be fine for his combo bash to chain rather then giving him 400ms tbh yes. It look more appropriate.

    Thats true anti gank is not something he is good at and your suggestion could help him in this area without making him too good in 1v1 thanks to the stam dmg nerf etc.
    In group fights he is not that bad if he is at max reknown imo. It depends if you want to use scout or not (thats a good feat for him) but if you keep using the Thor hammer this can definitly turn a group fight into an almost guaranteed win. But yeah his efficiency relly on a 4th feat which is not great either.

    If I wanted to run scout I could run valk or shaolin or shaman. All 3 would be better team picks for ganking. But yes his unique tier 4 is proper good if positioned right.
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