1. #11
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    As usual, thanks for the detailed proposal Knight_Raime. I'll be keeping my eyes on this thread.
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  2. #12
    Originally Posted by rottmeister Go to original post
    I've read it and I'm not entirely sure what to think from it. I like quite a lot of your suggestions mainly the changes to blocking attacks, however I'm not too sure about your proposition to buff delayed attacks and the change to deflects.

    So if I understand correctly: you can still deflect how it always has been? Dodging into an attack the right time? Then what is the point of adding a new way to deflect? I don't really like the fact that you'd have to input the dodge attack, that'd make it even harder to pull of. The deflects would be on Tiandi's superior dodge attack levels of difficulty because the timing would be more strict due to you having to input an attack on top of a dodge.

    I don't agree 100% with the change to delayed attacks unless the timing would be extremely strict and not something you could mindlessly do over and over or else you basically get a free buff to your light attacks.

    And what exactly is the guard crush? I don't really understand it. You "feint" a gb but still grab the opponent (or attack)? I'm sorry but I don't see the point of this.

    I've been following news around MK 11 recently and 1 mechanic stood out to me. In MK 11 certain attacks have certain requirements to perform whether it be doing certain moves to power up your character (in terms of damage) or moves that can be "amplified" (extend a character's chain or doing more damage by sacrificing something, in MK 11; the power meter) or other things. I'm no expert on fighting games at all, it just stood out to me, maybe we could implement similar requirements in FH to some degree? This way skill and mindgames will come more into play?

    To give an already established requirement in For Honor as an example: Shaman's opponent has to be bleeding in order for her to have access to her bite.
    I'm on mobile so I'm going to just reply to you.

    1) the delayed input buff would be from the maximum possible delay only. But seeing as your the second person to raise issue with this I'm fine with it not being a thing. It was mainly just a clever way to make delayed inputs a mechanic rather than something the devs have to maybe address and remove.

    2) Yes normal deflect input exists still. The point was to address the issue of side deflects being hard to do because of lapping over I frames. The idea was giving you a choice. Input a normal deflect and be slightly safer due to I frame usage. Or do the new input to avoid the I frames but be rewarded with your deflect and a guaranteed follow up.

    3) guard crush is probably my sloppiest idea here. Essentially I was trying to do two things. Add some way for GBs to be apart of mind games. And add command grabs into the game. Essentially guard crush looks like you're going into a standard GB. But then you shift into this stance that's capable of teaching command grabs and normal guard breaks. Feint able GB would be one way of making it apart of mind games. Hence the cancel of the stance with a light.

    4) what that's called in mk 11 I believe is "Crushing blow" where you have to meet a certain requirement. And by doing so it shows an xray of the hit and does more damage. But that can only be done once per match.

    The only similar thing on my list to that is blocked moves give the opponent a move with a new property. It would be interesting if we had more moves gated behind actions via shaman. Though I can't personally think of a way to do that beyond dot being given to most heros.
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  3. #13
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I'm on mobile so I'm going to just reply to you.

    1) the delayed input buff would be from the maximum possible delay only. But seeing as your the second person to raise issue with this I'm fine with it not being a thing. It was mainly just a clever way to make delayed inputs a mechanic rather than something the devs have to maybe address and remove.

    2) Yes normal deflect input exists still. The point was to address the issue of side deflects being hard to do because of lapping over I frames. The idea was giving you a choice. Input a normal deflect and be slightly safer due to I frame usage. Or do the new input to avoid the I frames but be rewarded with your deflect and a guaranteed follow up.

    3) guard crush is probably my sloppiest idea here. Essentially I was trying to do two things. Add some way for GBs to be apart of mind games. And add command grabs into the game. Essentially guard crush looks like you're going into a standard GB. But then you shift into this stance that's capable of teaching command grabs and normal guard breaks. Feint able GB would be one way of making it apart of mind games. Hence the cancel of the stance with a light.

    4) what that's called in mk 11 I believe is "Crushing blow" where you have to meet a certain requirement. And by doing so it shows an xray of the hit and does more damage. But that can only be done once per match.

    The only similar thing on my list to that is blocked moves give the opponent a move with a new property. It would be interesting if we had more moves gated behind actions via shaman. Though I can't personally think of a way to do that beyond dot being given to most heros.
    Thank you for your in depth response.

    1) I don't hate the idea of making the delayed inputs a mechanic, but I just think that the input should be extremely strict for the attacks to be 1 faster and 2 not show the little smoke thing.

    2) Oh okay, that makes sense, fair enough.

    3) It's a really odd concept but I'd have to see it in game to really judge it's usefulness.

    4) Yeah, those were one of the things I mentioned. Kitana for example has to hit an opponent 3 times with her sai to get a crushing blow, but I was also talking about regular "buffs" characters get when doing certain requirements. Liu Kang for example has a regular flying kick but he can prolong the kick by sacrificing some of his power meter (?) while others can extend their combo's or do extra damage. Jax for an example does more damage when his fists are glowing, that happens after he has done a lot with his fists. D'Vorah for example gets a completely new move when she "amplifies" a move and is able to prolong her chain.

    It indeed would be difficult to implement more "Shaman-like" moves into the game. Shaman isn't the only hero whose move-set is based on bleeds though, the bleed team says hello
    In one of the PK rework idea threads I saw someone mention that she'd get a new ability in regaining stamina faster when an opponent is bleeding. Things like that could even help give characters more of a personality. I'm sure there are different ways of giving characters moves with certain requirements apart from making them bleed. perhaps getting them out of stamina or have a "perfect block", which would be an extremely tight timing and it would give certain benefits as in perhaps a guaranteed move. Or maybe a move to prolong your chain but it has a timer for when you're able to use it again, kind of like feats or it could take a sliver from your health bar instead and the more you use the move, the more health you lose each time?

    EDIT: I was thinking of moves that could be "amplified" in For Honor and I came up with a few. Instead of having a 'power meter' it would most likely cost the character a ton of stamina, a bit of health to perform or maybe they could be put into an 'exhausted state' where they can not perform the move again for 2 minutes or so (so it can't be overused). One that jumped out immediately was PK's kidney stabs. normally she only stabs you 3 times but if you were to hold the third light input she'd keep stabbing for 2-3 more seconds but she'd sacrifice any of the three things I mentioned above (I think the latter works best). Another one could be Nobushi's confirmed 3rd stab (or 2nd in HS) if you were to hold the button, she'd stab you more (or way deeper and hold you in place).
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  4. #14
    Originally Posted by rottmeister Go to original post
    Thank you for your in depth response.

    1) I don't hate the idea of making the delayed inputs a mechanic, but I just think that the input should be extremely strict for the attacks to be 1 faster and 2 not show the little smoke thing.

    2) Oh okay, that makes sense, fair enough.

    3) It's a really odd concept but I'd have to see it in game to really judge it's usefulness.

    4) Yeah, those were one of the things I mentioned. Kitana for example has to hit an opponent 3 times with her sai to get a crushing blow, but I was also talking about regular "buffs" characters get when doing certain requirements. Liu Kang for example has a regular flying kick but he can prolong the kick by sacrificing some of his power meter (?) while others can extend their combo's or do extra damage. Jax for an example does more damage when his fists are glowing, that happens after he has done a lot with his fists. D'Vorah for example gets a completely new move when she "amplifies" a move and is able to prolong her chain.

    It indeed would be difficult to implement more "Shaman-like" moves into the game. Shaman isn't the only hero whose move-set is based on bleeds though, the bleed team says hello
    In one of the PK rework idea threads I saw someone mention that she'd get a new ability in regaining stamina faster when an opponent is bleeding. Things like that could even help give characters more of a personality. I'm sure there are different ways of giving characters moves with certain requirements apart from making them bleed. perhaps getting them out of stamina or have a "perfect block", which would be an extremely tight timing and it would give certain benefits as in perhaps a guaranteed move. Or maybe a move to prolong your chain but it has a timer for when you're able to use it again, kind of like feats or it could take a sliver from your health bar instead and the more you use the move, the more health you lose each time?

    EDIT: I was thinking of moves that could be "amplified" in For Honor and I came up with a few. Instead of having a 'power meter' it would most likely cost the character a ton of stamina, a bit of health to perform or maybe they could be put into an 'exhausted state' where they can not perform the move again for 2 minutes or so (so it can't be overused). One that jumped out immediately was PK's kidney stabs. normally she only stabs you 3 times but if you were to hold the third light input she'd keep stabbing for 2-3 more seconds but she'd sacrifice any of the three things I mentioned above (I think the latter works best). Another one could be Nobushi's confirmed 3rd stab (or 2nd in HS) if you were to hold the button, she'd stab you more (or way deeper and hold you in place).
    1) Yeah the other person wasn't fond of the smoke disappearing either. So fair enough. Either way we'd need to find a way to indicate the maximum delayed input visually to another player I think.

    3) I just want to have GB's be something more than they are now. I'm really open to anything. The whole idea is to add mechanical depth to the game so heros don't feel one dimensonal.

    4) Yeah meter burning is also a thing. But i'm not sure how we could apply a meter to for honor. Maybe we could just have fancier versions of moves that are on a different input. for honor already some what messes with the input on the left stick and some what messes with charge based inputs. Why not use those more often to do special versions of moves?
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  5. #15
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    1) Yeah the other person wasn't fond of the smoke disappearing either. So fair enough. Either way we'd need to find a way to indicate the maximum delayed input visually to another player I think.

    3) I just want to have GB's be something more than they are now. I'm really open to anything. The whole idea is to add mechanical depth to the game so heros don't feel one dimensonal.

    4) Yeah meter burning is also a thing. But i'm not sure how we could apply a meter to for honor. Maybe we could just have fancier versions of moves that are on a different input. for honor already some what messes with the input on the left stick and some what messes with charge based inputs. Why not use those more often to do special versions of moves?
    4) Yes, it'd be cool to see some "fancier versions of moves that are on a different input".
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  6. #16
    Guard crush isnt a bad idea, GB feinting could be unless maybe you combined alot of your ideas into an onblock (enemy block) option to charge an un-CGB guard break (think a better cent punch complete with orange 'you are about to be grabbed' warning) - this can be feint-able. In theory this should encourage people to throw attacks to interrupt as thats the only out at that point

    EDIT: this would make issues with out of stamina though
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  7. #17
    I don't think game require such big changes, but some really interesting and should be added.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    lethal block damage:
    Very good idea, but I would make everything simpler without perfect blocks:
    - If you have 1 HP then opponent's heavies drain and stop regeneration of your stamina, 30dmg heavy drain 30stm, then characters with strong heavies or big stamina will have advantage, the one way to stop it is parry, the heavy which drain last stamina kills you, enemies with 1 HP in OOS will die automaticly from blocking, heavy only.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Soft feint guard breaks now exist for every character in the game on AT LEAST opener heavies.
    I think it is bad idea, because characters with soft-feint will lost their lose their individuality, also character with fast/gb invulnerable will lost it too.
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  8. #18
    Originally Posted by rottmeister Go to original post
    I've read it and I'm not entirely sure what to think from it. I like quite a lot of your suggestions mainly the changes to blocking attacks, however I'm not too sure about your proposition to buff delayed attacks and the change to deflects.

    So if I understand correctly: you can still deflect how it always has been? Dodging into an attack the right time? Then what is the point of adding a new way to deflect? I don't really like the fact that you'd have to input the dodge attack, that'd make it even harder to pull of. The deflects would be on Tiandi's superior dodge attack levels of difficulty because the timing would be more strict due to you having to input an attack on top of a dodge.

    I don't agree 100% with the change to delayed attacks unless the timing would be extremely strict and not something you could mindlessly do over and over or else you basically get a free buff to your light attacks.

    And what exactly is the guard crush? I don't really understand it. You "feint" a gb but still grab the opponent (or attack)? I'm sorry but I don't see the point of this.

    I've been following news around MK 11 recently and 1 mechanic stood out to me. In MK 11 certain attacks have certain requirements to perform whether it be doing certain moves to power up your character (in terms of damage) or moves that can be "amplified" (extend a character's chain or doing more damage by sacrificing something, in MK 11; the power meter) or other things. I'm no expert on fighting games at all, it just stood out to me, maybe we could implement similar requirements in FH to some degree? This way skill and mindgames will come more into play?

    To give an already established requirement in For Honor as an example: Shaman's opponent has to be bleeding in order for her to have access to her bite.

    Heck I would be happy to just get the requirement of this exact hit has to land to move to next so it triggers the effect. I don't know how many times I see a beserker start swinging before he gets to his opponent.

    Just so he becomes uninterrupted and who ever is on the receiving end gets screwed either by a second hit that doesn't always show on guard UI or a overhead that's unblockable. So add together the recoil from blocking the first heavy attack then the control delays from the consoles and the defender is virtually at the mercy of the stamina gods.

    And I know you say at your level of play their is no issues with blocking. And I will have to call that for what it is.

    Because I know a few grand masters above 200 renown and you put them in a breach match in pvp against let's say a some level 45 squad. And just listen to the chat audio.

    When were the you all of them are constantly constantly complaining that something is B's because they seemingly can't block fast enough. Or that someone is cheating because they can't parry them once in several attempts.

    And another thing that I would kinda like to see happen is with the chains. I understand the whole you move from this set of moves into this set and so on. But make it exactly that not repeat same chain over and over.

    But let's take once again beserker for example he has if I remember correctly six or seven different ways to start his chains but once he finishes for example the 3 heavy hit chain. He just has to go right back to it until he's OOS but their is no break between them.

    Unlike orochi her 3 light hit chain if you try and repeat it again she pauses for a brief moment and the opponent has a small window to do something. But that momentarily pause is some times the difference maker.

    I would also kinda like and see several of the characters with the infinite chains be just like every other character. Who's chains are usually 3 maybe four hits max. Or just eliminate the whole limited hit chains on every other character. I mean a Aramusha who just goes off on his chain using lights only can easily put down one opponent and move to a next.

    It hasn't happened to me personally but I seen a video on YouTube or maybe twitch that it did happen to a team. Where there was two defenders one was fighting the Aramusha and got demolished. They tried everything dodging to the side and even back didn't help because Aramusha seems to take the entire distance of a dodge in a single step or his attack automatically tracked.
    And the second defender was caught turned away from the Aramusha and totally open for everything. I'll see if I can find it and post it later.
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