1. #21
    WiwarK9's Avatar Member
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    When an entire rap culture is about how many years you passed in prison to be a thug no wonder number are disporpotionate (the effect of this same rap culture on arabs in france are catastrophic) but the thing is there a groups like http://www.bmecommunity.org/ who want to help their communties rise but they get almost no coverage by the same media who always side with the "minorities".
    It bring more clicks to emotionaly validate certain group and to anger the rage of another than to spread a positive message.
    Even if your comment, by some people, could be considered borderline racism don't forget that not so long ago Kanye west made the same and he was being even more controversial
    Like the guy who hugged kayne said there are people who help those communities but no one want to talk about them and i don't think kanye is a white supremacist even if a lot of people want it to be true.

    If BGE1 was so inspired by the conspiracy theory of the 11 september i think there are a lot of things they could inspire themselves from this video up there and this video too
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  2. #22
    Kamitto's Avatar Member
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    Jesus Christ.

    I tried, Alexanda. Everyone else.

    But I've got nothing more to say. Some folks are impervious to new information.

    Going to just have to resort to the "ignore user" function, after all. Which sucks.


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  3. #23
    Legion-495's Avatar Senior Member
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    Well, this whole thing of discussion is as apparent as it gets.
    We all have our stance, and nobody backs up.
    Let us agree to disagree.

    But I have to say ignoring something doesn't make anything better.
    And yes sure this goes both ways. I do not intend to ignore anyone here.
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  4. #24
    DevilmanSinner's Avatar Member
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    [SIZE=3}Kamitto, you put a lot of work into this thread trying to be as civil as possible. A number of other posters have...willfully or otherwise, elected to ignore that civility in favour of laziness towards critical theory. You literally established a framework that was then promptly ignored. So I truly do think it's best to just shut down this thread. Which is unfortunate, because this thread could have gone very far in promoting some true understanding.

    BG&E2 will be a very diverse, inclusionary and representative game. It just will. And for us minorities starving for those features, we will be fed. And for those who are annoyed by the presence of those features in games, well there are other games for them.[/SIZE]
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  5. #25
    Legion-495's Avatar Senior Member
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    My primary intent was to point out that I do not entirely agree the way number two and four have been written.

    BG&E2 will be a very diverse, inclusionary and representative game. It just will. And for us minorities starving for those features, we will be fed. And for those who are annoyed by the presence of those features in games, well there are other games for them.
    I agree which is why I always point out that I want to see how it will be.

    Then we have something to judge as Space Monkies.
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  6. #26
    UbiBorghal's Avatar Community Manager
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    I want to thank everybody who participated in this thread, sharing perspectives and opinions. I appreciate the original intent of the thread, which was to present a frame of discussion for subjects that tend to elicit inflamatory responses. The discussion got derailed and became about those topics, as opposed to the more meta "how to discuss."

    I'm leaving this thread open for now, but I want to remind everybody to remain civil. It is fine to agree to disagree. It is not OK to start flaming.

    Let's go back on topic, shall we?

    Thanks!
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  7. #27
    Lyogron's Avatar Member
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    Originally Posted by Kamitto Go to original post
    This forum has a problem.


    I love how structured and eloquently you've put your opening statement (and I'm shocked at the misogynist and racist comments you've received in return, yet not surprised). I do think that the course this thread has taken, however, demonstrates that some people will never be able to accept these rather basic ground rules as the meta level of "how to discuss" because that's just not the framework within which their ideology (or agenda) can exist. They MUST attack the framework. They are unable to move within it, it is just too darn uncomfortable for them. I don't think their lack of knowledge is the problem; sadly, their unwillingness to acquire said knowledge is.

    As George Orwell has said, "all art is propaganda". That means video games as well. You've touched on that issue in your post. I believe it is incredibly difficult for some people to understand the agenda of the narrative media they've been fed for decades. They assume these were not "political" when nothing could be further from the truth. Of course, when a work of art confirms our preconceptions, relies on reductive stereotypes, strengthens the status quo, we feel right at home, we don't feel an "agenda" or a "political angle". But there is one of course, a literally "conservative" one.

    I'm still much of a greenhorn when it comes to the nitty-gritty of diversity questions (and struggle with the concept of cultural appropriation, hence will definitely defer on the experts on that one). It indeed took me a full blown "gate" to, in August 2014, grok a whole lot of very basic things about game culture toxicity. Back then I thought, yes, things are bad, but at least we're slowly going somewhere good, and we're going together as an inclusive community of gamers. That idea was crushed when the far-right push began, a deep rift was unveiled and plainly silly enemy concepts like "SJW" became all the rage. Back then I was concerned with a "well written story" only (having been a literature student in ancient times, that's not surprising). But that inescapably led to questions of inclusion. Of course the greatest autors of [Western] literature were concerned with letting us walk in a person's shoes who is distinct from ourselves, and with showing the situation of and giving a human face to minorities and minoritized groups that formerly were only included as cheap enemy figures or laughing stock. It is not just laudable, but imperative, that video games attempt the same.

    Even when we're talking about characters that act as projection figures and are therewith often quite simply constructed (most often in children's literature, but e.g. also in movies like Star Wars. Luke Skywalker for example), we will have to concede their overwhelming maleness, whiteness, and heterosexuality. What an enormous privilege it is to grow up with so enormously many fictional heroes that, at first sight, "could be us". And this privilege makes some people blind to how minorities and minoritized people deserve their heroes as well: Canon female, POC, LGBTQ+ heroes with their own personality, not just "by choice".

    I had really hoped that the fans of a game with a complex, not sexualized female (and likely Asian) protagonist that doesn't focus on some random love affair of hers would be a bit more open to these questions (thankfully, some that I've met here are ).
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  8. #28
    Legion-495's Avatar Senior Member
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    Movies are a total nightmare at this.
    Series are usually a bit better.
    I grew up with "Jim Button and Luke the Engine Driver".
    And that was as diverse as it got for children a few years back. Compared to that it seems quite good today.
    Oh man, there are so many old children books with the N-Word in Germany/Austria.
    I don't really see them as bad, because at the time words were different (George Orwell is everywhere).

    Nobody sets a barrier to create anything different as far as I know.
    We see few representations of minorities because they are minorities (this seems very logical to me).
    I don't see that what exists is an issue nor things that get created.
    It is that minorities need to represent themselves in those media. Now granted that is probably very hard, but if laws are in place what I hope it should be a fair competition for everyone.
    Diversity will grow with time. That is what I think.
    And forcing people to create diverse material doesn't look like a solution to me. That has to happen on their own terms. Only then it is true diversity.
    That is the case for BGE2. They want to create a diverse game.
    There need to be people which want to create all that for any media.

    I think it would be way easier to do that in movies or TV shows compared to games because a game gives you feedback on what you do. There needs to be enough good content that goes this way and people will like it. After that, it will very likely hit the mainstream.
    A game is no easy one-way communication.
    That will make this a complex thing to easily screw up. <= This is the issue, why people dislike it.
    During the time the game is not out that will probably stay a concern. People go crazy over the smallest of issues.

    I really would like to see an almost done basic character creator and a few dialogues.
    What government structure is it we deal with in the game? Dictators? Communism? Capitalism? Will those have social structures? I think those will heavily impact on how diversity will be shown. We should expect to see few white humans^^
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  9. #29
    WiwarK9's Avatar Member
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    "It is that minorities need to represent themselves in those media. Now granted that is probably very hard, but if laws are in place what I hope it should be a fair competition for everyone."
    Why should their be laws in place ?
    We live in an era where it has never been so easy to spread your work and to kickstart it, there are a ton of site like https://royalroadl.com/home who let you post your stories with the tag you want.
    There is twitter, youtube if you want to advertise your work and to make it known.
    The problem is you are talking about minorities = not a majority, wich make it a niche market and a lot of minorities are not in comfortable situation enough too spend money on entertainement.

    "Diversity will grow with time. That is what I think."
    Yes it will grow, but for it to grow there has to be a strong exemple about a story wich feature a lot of diversity and who work and bge have all the ingredients to be this exemple , the fact that anthropomorphic characters exist open the doors to all type of character.
    The thing is today a lot of diversity we saw is more akin to tokenism than true diversity and the problem with tokenism is you don't see anymore a character as an indivudial but as a representent of their race/gender and adding bad traits to those character = hating the group that he represent wich lead you to restriction in your writing wich lead you to a **** story.
    This is what happen when you portray black character in a bad way, if they were all on the good side no one would complain .https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/...e-in-far-cry-5
    Their was also a comic featuring the death (impaled) of trans character, the goal of the author was to show the america under the rule of a leader like donal trump but even with all the good intention of the author he still got the heat and was called a transphobe.

    Their was a time when the goal of stories where to change the mentality of people and to do that they had to pass an hidden message where the consumer uppon discovering it could see how wrong he was thinking,
    today the goal is to please the certain people without trying to change anything (partisan writting).
    One of the thing that give me hope is this part from Ancel instagram.

    michelancel : Still a lot to do for the place of women in our society

    otakyuubiI find this funny coming from you considering the hypersexual way you drew the nymphs in Rayman Origins. Practice what you preach, Michel.

    michelancel @otakyuubi Hi and thanks for your comments . I m more thinking about equal rights instead of restrictions ( do this , don’t do this . Draw this not that etc...) . Inclusion instead of exclusion . If someone wants to show it’s nice shapes he or she can do it freely with no different judgements . My pic was more to remind recent affairs showing women beeing used as objects , beeing manipulated. It’s more a metaphoric photo than anything else

    otakyuubi @michelancel Thank you for your reply Michel. I am a huge fan of Rayman and your works and have been since I was 8. I am all for equal rights but not for restrictions either especially when it comes to art, since I'm an artist myself. My point was that, Western societies already give women the privileges they need and want and there is no need to complain about sexism and inequality, or to use the oppression of other women to justify our complaints, we should also fight for them as well. As for your nymphs, I have no problem with them, just the fact that it seemed too inappropriate for a child's game and the fact I saw some contradiction between them and your post. Anyways, thank you for being respectful and reasonable. Take care.

    If Ancel want to do wathever he want without being pressured by any group more power to him that's why i have hope in this game and that's why whatever come out of it i know it's a game made with the heart and with an artistic vision.

    Here are some nice shapes
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  10. #30
    Legion-495's Avatar Senior Member
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    As in same treatment for everyone laws. Not that we would need an extension on that to make some more equal
    I think we have those basically globally for the most part.
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