PDA

View Full Version : Why not the P-51D?



XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:16 PM
I saw mentioned that of the new a/c coming up in the patch/addon (which is it, btw) that we may be getting the P-51B & C. My question is: why not the D? I'm no Stang expert, but I did just watch that History Channel show, and they mentioned that the real turning point for the P-51 was when the D model was released with the Merlin engine, rather than the Allison engine. This gave it high altitude ability to go along with it's already awesome firepower, range, etc. and allowed them to escort the B-17 bombinb runs all the way to Berlin and back, whereas the previous attempts to escort by the TBolts had them turning around near Amsterdam, leaving the bombers on their own.

So, why just the P-51B/C? Would the addition of the P-51D bring unfair balance to the game? Or am I wrong and we will see the P-51D?

And, who made the Merlin? On the show the narrator says it's Packard, but one of the pilots said it was Rolls Royce??

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:16 PM
I saw mentioned that of the new a/c coming up in the patch/addon (which is it, btw) that we may be getting the P-51B & C. My question is: why not the D? I'm no Stang expert, but I did just watch that History Channel show, and they mentioned that the real turning point for the P-51 was when the D model was released with the Merlin engine, rather than the Allison engine. This gave it high altitude ability to go along with it's already awesome firepower, range, etc. and allowed them to escort the B-17 bombinb runs all the way to Berlin and back, whereas the previous attempts to escort by the TBolts had them turning around near Amsterdam, leaving the bombers on their own.

So, why just the P-51B/C? Would the addition of the P-51D bring unfair balance to the game? Or am I wrong and we will see the P-51D?

And, who made the Merlin? On the show the narrator says it's Packard, but one of the pilots said it was Rolls Royce??

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:18 PM
dev updates laddie /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:20 PM
It's Rolls-Royce. Same engines as the Spits had (Mk 5 and 9 I believe)

lil'

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:20 PM
What P-51 is in the game right now?

Of course - the P-51D Bubbletop. We're getting it...

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:21 PM
The Merlin is a British, Rolls-Royce designed engine. Packard license built them in America.

And yes, the P-51D will be in FB, it's cockpit is already complete, and the external is already in FB

=======================================

(H).

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:24 PM
The US used Packard Merlin engines. These were just license built Rolls-Royce engines, so were basically the same as used on the Spitfire and Hurricane. BTW the story behind the P51 is quite interesting- it was built for the RAF, was designed by a German and was used by the USAAF. The P51 was practically useless until the British Merlin engine was fitted.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:24 PM
Arm_slinger wrote:
- dev updates laddie

Argh!! I just saw it now! Damn it... I thought for sure I had only seen B&C! Hehe... sorry fellas >8)

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:28 PM
P-51B, C and D all had RR Merlin engines. And contrary to the populary belief 51D was faster than B at low alts (better suited for FB arena), and had roughly the same weight if P51D had the fuselage tank empty (65 US gall). P51B/C had provisions for a fuselage tank too (I don't know if it was installed or not).

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:34 PM
Haven't you looked at the P-51D in the game already?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
Gunther Rall

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/rall4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:51 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Haven't you looked at the P-51D in the game already?

I'm waiting on the patch before I pick up FB :\

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:58 PM
Oh ok.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
Gunther Rall

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/rall4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:15 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- BuzzU wrote:
-- Haven't you looked at the P-51D in the game already?
-
- I'm waiting on the patch before I pick up FB :\

Why.....??
You must be an extremely patient man.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:21 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
--- Haven't you looked at the P-51D in the game already?
--
-- I'm waiting on the patch before I pick up FB :\
-
- Why.....??
- You must be an extremely patient man.

I am. And, I've only recently discovered IL-2, so I'm not exactly bored. I'm having a blast with it! Both online & off. Another couple of weeks I can wait (it will late, you know - I'm a developer, trust me).

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 12:30 AM
Wow! I´m impressed... really, I mean it...

and YOU, you are gonna be impressed, too...

in, I don´t know, three weeks time, you´ll be impressed by your ability to resist temptation, but you´ll also say something like "had I known..."

GreyBeast_P39

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 12:34 AM
outsch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif


Message Edited on 07/31/0311:34PM by JG53Frankyboy

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:03 PM
GreyBeast wrote:
- Wow! I´m impressed... really, I mean it...
-
- and YOU, you are gonna be impressed, too...
-
- in, I don´t know, three weeks time, you´ll be
- impressed by your ability to resist temptation, but
- you´ll also say something like "had I known..."

I hope you're right. In the meantime, I'll wait...

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:14 PM
Hi there!

Sometimes, I think the makers of these documentaries have a lot to answer for.

I saw that same documentary some months ago. The statement made in it was misleading, if not totally incorrect.

Yes, the real 'turning point', as you might call it, did indeed come when the P-51 airframe was mated with the Rolls Royce Merlin engine (built under license by Packard, as somebody has already mentioned).

With this magic marriage, the P-51 became the fighter that it deserved to be. One of the best engine/airframe combinations of WW2 was created.

It now had the required high-altitude performance, the ability to engage Luftwaffe fighers on at least equal terms and, crucially, brilliant range (up to 1600 miles with drop tanks).

But this 'turning point' with the RR engine was the P-51B and C. The D was a refinement, standardizing many of the improvements introduced during production of the B and C models (for example, the change from 4 x .50 to 6 x .50 armament).

The D also had some refinements of its own, notably the cut-down rear deck and 'teardrop' canopy, which substantially altered the P-51's appearance. The D became, if you like, the 'quintessential' P-51 and was built in the largest numbers.

Nevertheless, it was the P-51B/C that formed the vanguard of the air superiority revolution in the skies over Germany. 3,738 were built and they carved out their place in history for quite a few months before the D model ever appeared in combat.

The production P-51B was the first Mustang variant ordered in quantity by the USAAF. This and the very similar C model served mainly in the role of long range escort and the first such operation was to Kiel in December 1943. By March 1944, the first mission to Berlin was made.

Somewhat later in 1944 the first D models entered combat and it really wasn't until nearer the end of that year that the D became the predominant version, by which time Allied air superiority had been fairly well secured.

Mind you, in my opinion, there wasn't much around that could beat a P-51D for looks!

Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 05:00 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- So, why just the P-51B/C? Would the addition of the
- P-51D bring unfair balance to the game? Or am I
- wrong and we will see the P-51D?
-

P-51B/C will be better dogfighters (lighter and faster than the P-51D), so no balance problems.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 05:16 PM
nicli wrote:
-
- Blind-SC- wrote:
-- So, why just the P-51B/C? Would the addition of the
-- P-51D bring unfair balance to the game? Or am I
-- wrong and we will see the P-51D?
--
-
- P-51B/C will be better dogfighters (lighter and
- faster than the P-51D), so no balance problems.

Once again this is not true. P51B were only slighlty faster at high altitude and slower at lower alts (than P51D), because they had a less powerful Merlin engine and a different supercharger setting. P51C had roughly the same weight with P51D with the fuselage tank empty (65 US gall). Don't forget that P-51C also had provisions for fuselage tank. Also P51B had only 4MG which suffered from jamming problems if fired under G load (corrected in later P51 models).

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 03:40 AM
Hi guys!

Small amendment to my previous post:

My comments on entry of the D model into combat apply to the 8th Air Force fighter groups, based in England. Some units, based in the MTO, received their Ds a little earlier.

For example, the 15th Air Force's 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups, based in Italy, began replacing their Spitfire Vs with P-51Ds in April 1944.

However, the main focus of my post was the 8th's fighter groups based in England. The D model did not begin to arrive there until May 1944 and by June, only four groups (the 4th, 339th, 352nd and 361st) had begun the transition.

By the end of July, this had grown to ten groups (adding the 20th, 55th, 355th, 357th, 359th and 364th). Then there was a gap of a couple of months or so, until September when the 479th began the change-over, followed by the 353rd in October, the 356th in November and the 78th in December.

Some groups changed directly from P-47s. Nevertheless, other groups flew both the B/C and D models for months after the changeover began.

D-Day, and all the missions flown in its immediate wake, were handled by P-51Bs, along with P-47s and P-38s, all of which proved very capable.

Primary sources:

*Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force - Jerry Scutts

*MUSTANG - Stewart Wilson

Best regards to all,
panther3485