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View Full Version : Imagine a Hardcore mode for AC?



dargor5
01-17-2015, 05:04 PM
Can you imagine this'? I would certainly love for there to be a Hardcore mode, were falling from more than 2 stories without leap of faith will kill you, were dying is well the end of the whole game and you have to start again, you are forced to use no HUD.

Of course the big problem with this is that combat will have to be spotless, and by that I don't mean easy, I like combat how it is now, but have the character actually respond to your command and not 3 strikes and then just stand there waiting to be killed without parrying or attacking

wvstolzing
01-17-2015, 05:30 PM
were dying is well the end of the whole game and you have to start again

With no checkpoints or saves? I don't think that would work -- but otherwise I'm all for varying levels of difficulty in AC, including a 'hardcore' mode.

But they'd better improve the stealth mechanics before including such a mode.

aL_____eX
01-17-2015, 05:36 PM
Imagine glitching to death in the last sequence or so. This mode would not work since AC is known to have glitches all over the place.

dargor5
01-17-2015, 05:59 PM
With no checkpoints or saves? I don't think that would work.

That's why is called Hardcore, otherwise is just Hard difficulty


Imagine glitching to death in the last sequence or so. This mode would not work since AC is known to have glitches all over the place.

Yes that's why the problem for this to work is that the game has to be highly polished without game breaking bugs, it used to be possible, now I'm not so sure

wvstolzing
01-17-2015, 06:08 PM
That's why is called Hardcore, otherwise is just Hard difficulty

Yeah, but an *unreasonable* requirement doesn't make it more *challenging* as a *game*. You just can't play a 40+ hour game without any checkpoints or saves; this isn't an NES platformer.

dargor5
01-17-2015, 06:12 PM
Yeah, but an *unreasonable* requirement doesn't make it more *challenging* as a *game*. You just can't play a 40+ hour game without any checkpoints or saves; this isn't an NES platformer.
Diablo has always had this difficulty this way. Also Fallout and skyrim with the correct mods and I find it very fun to play but again I meant it as a choice, no that the game should be that way

DemonLord4lf
01-17-2015, 06:47 PM
Diablo has always had this difficulty this way. Also Fallout and skyrim with the correct mods and I find it very fun to play but again I meant it as a choice, no that the game should be that way

They still had save points. If you died that save point became moot, but still had save points.

dargor5
01-17-2015, 06:59 PM
They still had save points. If you died that save point became moot, but still had save points.

I guess that's debatable, but overall I would like some sort of raised difficulty, the real problem is the game breaking glitches and bugs, the difficulty right now makes it so is not that bad if you die from been stuck in a glitch or character not responding to command (still frustrating in a way) but in the current game state raising the difficulty can be over the top frustrating.

Namikaze_17
01-17-2015, 07:02 PM
Like critical mode in KH? :rolleyes:

Why not?

dargor5
01-17-2015, 07:24 PM
Like critical mode in KH? :rolleyes:

Why not?

What's KH?

DemonLord4lf
01-17-2015, 07:25 PM
What's KH?

Kingdom Hearts, you fool XO

dargor5
01-17-2015, 07:31 PM
Kingdom Hearts, you fool XO

Lol two letters can mean many things but ok

VestigialLlama4
01-17-2015, 08:26 PM
Can you imagine this'

Well, since we have different titles as of this moment and combat and stealth systems vary, some games have Medicine others have regenerating health, we'll take into account different games.

But okay in Hardcore mode, it would have:
1) Social Stealth:
- Player Actions affect the economy of an area. As per the logic of social stealth, keeping violence to the minimum and not upsetting daily life is a crucial part of an Assassin. So anytime you get into a fight with guards on rooftops or on the streets, that is to say if you make a stack of bodies to test your awesome combat in the middle of a street, the economy of the region will be affected. Shops will be fewer in number (since logically in an unsafe neighbourhood with a serial killing lunatic, merchants won't be comfortable selling stuff, customers won't feel safe buying stuff, suppliers won't be safe bringing stuff to buy and sell), and prices will go way up for some other basic goods. Buildings will also become unsafe(since rooftop workers and maintenance which did exist in those days and must logically exist to accomodate all the soldiers who patrol the rooftops), the crowds will be filled with criminals, beggars, lunatics and other disruptive elements. Parkouring across buildings will lack the easy grasping points and there will be fewer haystacks and the like. If you attack guards, you must either blend back in crowd or kill them stealthily and hide their bodies. Naturally, the number of guards will increase in the area as well.

So if you are a bloody, aggressive psychopathic Assassin then your gaming experience will be an endless warzone where there are few crowds to blend in, few haystacks to fall in, and nowhere to run and hide. Crowds are important to an Assassin, without people, they have nowhere to hide so its in your interest that your fight with Templars don't mess up the lives of people around you.

2) Health
- AC2-ACR Era and Unity - where Medicine Vials are available.
-- Medicine only regenerates small sliver of health to make it through the fight, but you need to go to a doctor after that to heal. Guards and Soldiers can also use medicine to regenerate health(which considering that Ezio and Arno loot them for medicine and Ammo always made me wonder why they can't regenerate health in a fight too) so they can match your character in combat and a straight fight too.
- AC1, AC3 and Black Flag
-- Health regenerates slowly and you can't go into cover and watch the bar fill. You have to either recover your synchronization by acting more like an Assassin (AC1 style) or you can wait for what-should-feel like a long time. But the more you fight, and the lower your health drops the longer the time it takes to regenerate, and your impatience will make you go into half health as well.

3) Combat
- AC1-ACRevelations
-- The Combat in AC1 is pretty good (it's still the hardest) in my view. I still struggle against the heavier guys. Since many of Altair's enemies have mail and armour and Altair visibly doesn't seem to have any, I would say that enemies without armour and helmet should be easier in combat, but heavy set armoured enemies (like the 60 Templars) or higher up, cannot be attacked or killed via Counter Kill with any weapon except the Hidden Blade--fairly hard to master as it is). Throwing Knives aren't Instant Kills on armoured enemies (So you can't cheat your way out of a tough punishing swordfight).
- For AC2, I would say that combat against armoured and heavier enemies should be harder and generally, you can't corner or beat them easily. In Brotherhood and Revelations, I would remove the Kick and Kill-Streak won't work on Papal Guards and Brutes and the fellows who weild halberds and spears, speaking of which, those pike-holding guys will hurl spears and halberds on you (which i have to ask why they didn't do before?) and if they hit you with it, it's a one-hit kill. In these fights you have small margin to dodge it, and you can't use human shields since those spears will go through the guy in front of you and into your body as well, so generally, combat in these games is harder and more intuitive and punishing against the tougher enemies(whose armor and heavy weaponry is not for show).
- For AC3 and Black Flag. Generally, when you get into one-on-one fights, flintlocks and muskets will be more than mere display. If you charge at an enemy on the front and he sees you coming, he will shoot at you. Close range shots are instant-kills. Shots in legs and hands damage your ability to combat and Parkour until health recovers. Harder enemies like the Jaegars or the Grenadiers are tough as it is, but I'd reduce kill streak and counter in terms of efficacy against these guys.
- In Unity, they made the combat more swishy and stylish and its a little bit harder against multiple enemies. Hardcore mode would make most of these enemy fights impossible altogether and force Arno into Stealth and Blend completely, since that's the ultimate logic of an Assassin which UNITY wants to dedicate itself to. Training and Gear collecting will also gain greater importance as that will be the only way to accomodate combat.

4) General Stealth
- After you go back to low notoriety, there should be a cooldown meter (similar to Notoriety but not something you can simply delete by performing some actions) where you must do low-profile actions only. If it increases again, your margin for blending will be reduced even further and you must get into combat(which is made correspondingly harder) to blend back in again.
- Haystacks and Static Hiding Spots (Benches, Rooftop Gardens) are fewer in number, more often than not, you must rely on the crowds to blend in. On higher notoriety levels, you won't have haystacks or other static hiding spots at all, and rely solely on crowds or fighting your way out.
- In terms of Notoriety Meter, I say impose a Three Strikes system but to keep the game fair, divide it by city section. If you get to High Notoriety in general gameplay three times in a given section, you will not lower in notoriety in that area (like say the Carnival area in Venice) ever. The same applies for any area. Which means that it's either combat or high profile all the time.

GoldenBoy9999
01-17-2015, 08:34 PM
Wow Llama, did you just type all of that up? Impressive.

Anyway, I'd like this. FNV is one of my favorite games because of it's hardcore mode. I like managing resources in that game but that obviously doesn't happen in AC. You can save in it, so I'd like checkpoints in AC. I do think it can be entertaining and challenging. Some more realistic combat damage, or fall damage, something to make it more realistic would be fun and a good New Game+ mode.

bitebug2003
01-17-2015, 09:14 PM
What's KH?

Kingdom Hearts (?) :S

No Hardcore mode for me.

Can't deal with the same tedium that AC Unity suffered from

Namikaze_17
01-17-2015, 09:37 PM
What I meant by Kingdom Hearts is some of the options it gives you to make the game harder.

For those who play/played the game(s) you'd know critical mode gives you the options of:

- Staying at your beginning weapon
- Not gaining much health as the story progresses unlike the other modes
- Option to Stay at Level 1 ( Which really makes enemies harder)
- Not gaining EXP ( Which still makes enemies harder)

I know AC isn't like this, but having options like these with Unity's difficulty would certainly make combat more challenging.

wvstolzing
01-17-2015, 09:54 PM
There's a difference between difficulty due to arbitrary handicaps, and difficulty due to increased challenge.

The latter is what's meaningful; the former can be fun, but it's pointless most of the time.

I think one of the worst examples of 'difficulty due to arbitrary handicaps' is in the Civilization series. When you choose to play at 'King', or 'Emperor', or whatever, the game becomes more difficult *not* because the AI starts making better strategical moves, but because it gets huge bonuses, or doesn't suffer from the same handicaps as the player. For example, in Civ 5, AI civs don't have to deal with unhappiness due to population -- and that's just game breaking, in my opinion. I've won a few games at Emperor difficulty, and it was nothing more than an endurance test: The AI throws horde after horde at you, you try to survive. Wow, big deal, such fun.... I'd much prefer constantly *losing* games against a player who makes clever decisions against me.

So, increased difficulty has to go hand in hand with improved AI, and well calibrated game mechanics at the player's disposal. Otherwise it's difficult as in trying to play with your feet as opposed to your hands on the controller, or KB&M, that is, pointless.

Cactiii
01-17-2015, 10:57 PM
Hardcore modes work better in roguelike games. Stories with really in depth stories, long tutorials and/or dodgy or imprecise controls do not work well in hardcore mode, and AC:Unity has all 3. Imagine if you were reading Shakespeare, and every time you mispronounced a word you had to restart from the very beginning, and you couldn't skim any of it. That wouldn't be fun or enlightening, it would just be frustrating. As is, AC isn't set up for a hardcore mode.

I feel like a spinoff DLC/whatever could make this work really well- take a big city and instead of focusing on a story or anything just set up a bunch of randomized assassination targets throughout the map and plop the player in at a random place as a randomized assassin. If the player dies, either everything is totally reset or, better yet, it takes the Shadow of Mordor Nemesis system. Legally somehow.

dargor5
01-17-2015, 11:07 PM
What I meant by Kingdom Hearts is some of the options it gives you to make the game harder.

For those who play/played the game(s) you'd know critical mode gives you the options of:

- Staying at your beginning weapon
- Not gaining much health as the story progresses unlike the other modes
- Option to Stay at Level 1 ( Which really makes enemies harder)
- Not gaining EXP ( Which still makes enemies harder)

I know AC isn't like this, but having options like these with Unity's difficulty would certainly make combat more challenging.

This is already doable by the player, heck I'm doing it, still using Arno's generic suit (just changed the color) the beginning sword and the only upgrades I've done so far are lockpicking. So we already have that mode in game in a way


Hardcore modes work better in roguelike games. Stories with really in depth stories, long tutorials and/or dodgy or imprecise controls do not work well in hardcore mode, and AC:Unity has all 3. Imagine if you were reading Shakespeare, and every time you mispronounced a word you had to restart from the very beginning, and you couldn't skim any of it. That wouldn't be fun or enlightening, it would just be frustrating. As is, AC isn't set up for a hardcore mode.

I feel like a spinoff DLC/whatever could make this work really well- take a big city and instead of focusing on a story or anything just set up a bunch of randomized assassination targets throughout the map and plop the player in at a random place as a randomized assassin. If the player dies, either everything is totally reset or, better yet, it takes the Shadow of Mordor Nemesis system. Legally somehow.

To take your point a little further maybe instead of killing you they just knock you out and take you to jail, now you have to escape and next time you see that guard he'll remember you (probably gets promoted to templar warchief :P JK)

Cactiii
01-17-2015, 11:28 PM
To take your point a little further maybe instead of killing you they just knock you out and take you to jail, now you have to escape and next time you see that guard he'll remember you (probably gets promoted to templar warchief :P JK)

"Jaques LeTimide has been promoted to Templar Warchief level 15"

DemonLord4lf
01-17-2015, 11:35 PM
This is already doable by the player, heck I'm doing it, still using Arno's generic suit (just changed the color) the beginning sword and the only upgrades I've done so far are lockpicking. So we already have that mode in game in a way



To take your point a little further maybe instead of killing you they just knock you out and take you to jail, now you have to escape and next time you see that guard he'll remember you (probably gets promoted to templar warchief :P JK)

Nemesis system? I would actually enjoy that. Even with the quirky combat system in Unity that would make things interesting. I hope they do implement something like that in Justice or any other AC game.

Cactiii
01-18-2015, 06:47 AM
Nemesis system? I would actually enjoy that. Even with the quirky combat system in Unity that would make things interesting. I hope they do implement something like that in Justice or any other AC game.

I think that the problem with implementing a nemesis system is that that's probably going to end up being Shadow of Mordor's 'thing.' It's a really cool idea which I hope gets implemented in more games beyond just Shadow of Mordor, but I can't imagine monolith letting such a good idea just get stolen by other companies, so I'm sure there's a slew of legal protection on it. Maybe it can eventually become a public domain thing, like how more games have taken AC style parkour since it stopped being 'hey, you're just knocking of Assassin's Creed!' in the future. But Shadow of Mordor's nemesis and promotion system in Assassin's Creed? Sounds like heaven.