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Breeze147
05-13-2004, 06:07 AM
I just can't do it. Too fast, too slow, too high, too low, miss turns, crash into other planes, other planes crash into me. And I refuse to use AP, no way.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap16.jpg

Breeze147
05-13-2004, 06:07 AM
I just can't do it. Too fast, too slow, too high, too low, miss turns, crash into other planes, other planes crash into me. And I refuse to use AP, no way.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap16.jpg

Heavy_Weather
05-13-2004, 06:10 AM
offline this is really hard, but when flying with those you have teamspeak, its much easier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-13-2004, 06:16 AM
I wouldn't worry about it too much. As long as you're in the vicinity and have some modicum of organization and tactics with your wingy (online or offline) you'll be o.k.

Formation flying isn't all it's cracked up to be...unless you're doing a demonstration.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
05-13-2004, 06:25 AM
Just keep trying. You'll eventually get it. It took me 3 months, and I'm still learning. Don't you worry. It all comes with lots and lots of practice and time.

BaldieJr
05-13-2004, 08:05 AM
Yeah, be patient. Formation flight in a sim is very difficult.

What helped me was using the FMB to create mission with 1 flight of 4, with me being the last plane in the flight. There were only 4 primary waypoints: one at each corner of the map. After flying the perimeter of the map a few times, it gets easier.

Once you've gotten better at it, add a few zig-zag waypoints and do it again untill you feel comfortable with turns.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Specs:
More expensive than the dining set.
Less expensive than the couch.
Smaller than the dishwasher.
Just as noisy as the refridgerator.
Faster than the cars' computer.
Less practical than the car.
Face it, people who put thier computer specs in thier signature are pretty ****ing wierd.

</pre>

horseback
05-13-2004, 08:23 AM
It's almost the hardest thing in the game, compounded by the tendency of the game to 'hide' other aircraft behind your canopy framing, and the limited field of view. Most of the time, though, if you just concentrate on keeping the formation leader in the center of your 45 degree view at a consistant distance, your wingman won't (usually) ram you.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

ELEM
05-13-2004, 08:24 AM
Strange! I cant play the piano http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

Monty_Thrud
05-13-2004, 08:43 AM
I presume you mean flying with AI in formation...well dont http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...because you will crash into each other and the ground and the sea..mountain etc...make sure that YOU DA MAN up front, in charge,the chief..then they'll follow you...and if you mean online..well exsqueeze me...why fly in formation close enough will do surely...besides you dont want to be too near the others anyway...someones bound to come along and try to shoot them down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

tigerroach
05-13-2004, 08:44 AM
Agreed, it is tough. It is a darn good way to practice flying though, and I think it helps me to make steadier approaches to my targets. So far I keep a little extra distance between myself and my mates to make sure I don't clip anybody.

LeadSpitter_
05-13-2004, 10:01 AM
thats about the only thing track ir is good for http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
05-13-2004, 10:21 AM
we train this with our squad sometimes but its so damn hard to do ,espacialy echelon right/left VIC finger four diamond etc
but flying right behind eachother is pretty easy

me and my wingman/leader can do pretty cool stuff now we are able to do loops wing on wing and such but i admit its so friggin hard.
loose a split second of your concentration and your already meter away from eachother http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sig97th.jpg

KarayaEine
05-13-2004, 10:30 AM
I don't even worry about it now. The AI planes are a pain in the *** to fly with. I usually assign myself as lead and make them follow me! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif (besides I don't have to hear that annoy wing leader shouting at me to stay on course, where the hell are you, etc.)

When I go into combat I tell my wingwan to cover me and the rest to attach whatever respective targets I deem. The AI wingman does a good job keeping up you just have to keep reminding him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid106/p5f881fba318d7f0779ac1d9df0ace079/f96e6284.jpg

"Achtung Kommandant, sind Sie Fl├┬Ąche auf Feuer"

HH Quazi
05-13-2004, 03:28 PM
I think it is one of the funnest aspects of flying with your squadmates. TOOT TOOT and I am good at it. Especially going in a bombing and strafing ground targets. I can generally stay between .08 and .15, either left, center, or right of my lead. But sometimes I'll drift back a bit further if flak and AA is heavy. I can do the same DF'ing, but it doesn't last to long at times because I am generally the one getting my rearend shot up while my lead is bearing down on a target. You have to learn with people and using comms. And it's pretty easy because your lead should give you his throttle and prop pitch settings, then you just match it, adding a bit more power until you reach the distance you want to be behind the lead. Now it takes concentration, especially when you get closer than .10 But I can tell you, it is worth learning. Good luck. S!

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/QuasiPOWsmall.jpg

mortoma
05-13-2004, 05:09 PM
I can fly any of the planes pretty well in formation so it can be done. Just takes months or years of practice to fly at that level. However, when you are assigned to fly escort, the AI planes fly in such a strange fashion, it's very hard to follow them precisely, even for me. They constantly speed up and slow down, they skid through turns using only rudder ( or mostly rudder ) and also they make extremely abrubt manuevers and turns that would be dangerous to do in real life. I've always wondered where on earth that the guys at Maddox games got the idea that formation flying during escorting is/was even remotely the way it's portrayed in the game. But I find formation flying in straight lines and "normal" turns really easy to do. I have tracks of me flying formation that would convince you it can be learned. And yes, you guys are all good enough to learn it.

GuillermoZS
05-13-2004, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
However, when you are assigned to fly escort, the AI planes fly in such a strange fashion, it's very hard to follow them precisely, even for me. They constantly speed up and slow down, they skid through turns using only rudder ( or mostly rudder ) and also they make extremely abrubt manuevers and turns that would be dangerous to do in real life. I've always wondered where on earth that the guys at Maddox games got the idea that formation flying during escorting is/was even remotely the way it's portrayed in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ThatÔ┬┤s because fighters shouldnÔ┬┤t lose their velocity advantage escorting bombers... so they fly arround the bombers at double speed than them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tsisqua
05-13-2004, 06:48 PM
When trying to fly in formation, keep your hand constantly on the throttle. Find the speed that is the average of the rest of your flight, then trim the plane to travel at that speed without you having to spend too much attention pulling back, or pushing forward on the stick. You can get much closer to the other planes in your group than you would think. If flying with ai, the next plane in the group will be almost out of your view, unless you look over at him, which you should do frequently.

Well, there is my 5 cents worth. If only one of the Silver Trigger guys were here to tell how the experts do it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tsisqua

willyvic
05-13-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
If only one of the Silver Trigger guys were here to tell how the experts do it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tsisqua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They practice and know the bird. Flight lead is responsible for close coordination and calls. Smooth stick handling and keeping "ahead" of the aircraft are a must. Look me up sometime and I'll give ya a demo.

http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/mig3u.jpg

HH Quazi
05-13-2004, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
When trying to fly in formation, keep your hand constantly on the throttle. Find the speed that is the average of the rest of your flight, then trim the plane to travel at that speed without you having to spend too much attention pulling back, or pushing forward on the stick. You can get much closer to the other planes in your group than you would think. If flying with ai, the next plane in the group will be almost out of your view, unless you look over at him, which you should do frequently.

Well, there is my 5 cents worth. If only one of the Silver Trigger guys were here to tell how the experts do it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tsisqua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah. The Silver Trigger guys have got to be the best there is. I'd like to get some tips from them also. Who knows, ST_Pawnee might show up and share a few tips with us. That would be super. I have checked their web site out and can't remember ever seeing anything concerning advice on formation flying. But for sure, they are phenominal. S!

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/QuasiPOWsmall.jpg

AlGroover
05-13-2004, 09:37 PM
If you've got enough rank, you can tell them to loosen formation. This stops a lot of collisions.

Papa_K
05-13-2004, 10:07 PM
The biggest problem (to me) is the tendency of FB's aircraft NOT to slow down -- sonic darts that will only deccelerate by turning -- chop the throttle all you want -- speed will only creep down unless you maneuver or use flaps.

Back to the point:
It helps a lot to know lead's airspeed. Find that narrow rpm range above and below the setting that will hold that speed. Then it's little throttle movements, little stick corrections, etc. to stay there.

Like everything else, Practice... but close formation work isn't the #1 priority.

Papa_K

ptegomerpyle
05-13-2004, 10:40 PM
If I'm second on my pair with a wingman aslong as i can stay about 30 or 40 behind them at too which ever side the formation dictates then I'm pretty happy.

When I'm the lead in my pair I just do the same but in position behind the 2nd plane in the lead pair, when it comes to combat i dont stick too them i do my own thing and keep my wingman covering me.

http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v32/PrivatePyle/monkeysig.gif (http://www.virtualnicotine.com)

ST__Pawnee
05-14-2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Who knows, ST_Pawnee might show up and share a few tips with us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, hehe.

Formation flying is something that needs patience and a lot of practice. Here's a few tips to consider:

1. The lead plane shouldn't not try to keep a certain speed, but a certain throttle per centage, for example 70%. This is because depending on if you are climbing/decending your speed will constantly change, but as long as the leader keep at 70% you can easily find the average aera of where to keep your throttle. Throttle control is very hard to do well, and is maybe more important than the flying itself. This mostly has to do with experience, but if the leader turns left, and you fly right wing, you will have to throttle up, since you are flying a larger turn than the leader. The opposite is if the leader turn right. Then you'll have to throttle down. I can post a track from one of our practices soon, where you can see how much we actually adjust the throttle.

2. View. Don't use padlock!! Never ever! The only view you will need if you fly right wing, is to tap once on your POV-hat to the left (press shift+F9 if it switchs back to normal position and try again) . Then you will be forced to keep the lead plane insight of your limited view. Also in the view mentioned above you will have full control over your wingtip and nose. It's a bit hard to get used to maybe, but as soon as you get the hang of it, you're progress will rise as a rocket. And don't use outside views, lol, then you'll never learn proper formation flying (maybe you will, but it will take 10 times longer time).

3. Many of you are probably most interested in flying tight formation to and from a target, but if you are flying aerobatics the leader should fly as precice and steady as possible. As being the leader it is very tempting to always check how you're wingmen are doing, but if you are doing a loop, lowpass, or barrel-roll, consentrate on your own steady flying instead. Every move you do must be smooth, and if you are doing a tight loop, do it by constantly and smoothly pulling harder until you reach the level of pulling you want.

4. Many of you say it's impossible/hard to fly with the AI, but the AI can be the best leader for straight formation flying. Just set a plane to fly at 300km/h (plane will fly at 50% throttle, at least for the P-40E) and make it fly straight for a long time in the Full Mission Builder. Then insert yourself behind the leadplane, and start the mission. Then you're free to fly as much straight flying formation you would like. It's very good practice.

5. Aerobatics need good communications, especially by the leader. Tell every little move you do, and every throttle change to keep your wingmen updated on what is going on. Make the communications easy, for example: "Loop, GO"

6. Choose the correct plane. Many of the late war planes had quite low energy-bleed compared to the early planes. Also the plane should have a responsive throttle. The 109 series has unfortunately a very slow throttle, and if you are a beginner keep the 109's on a distance. One of the best planes for formation flying are: P-40 series, La-5 series, P-51 series, Fw-190 series, Spitfires, I-16's, Hurricane's and some other, consider both throttle controll and cockpit view. The P-39 is also quite good, but has a somewhat limited view to the sides.
In other word: Good energybleed is good for formation flight.


This was only a few tips, but to get good in formation flying, practice often and also with the AI. If you fly campaigns, fly formation to the target and back. In dogfights, you can fly formations with friends, squadmates or other interested. Flying together also make you more dangerous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

And, remember, practice! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ST_Pawnee

EDIT: If there's anything you wonder about formation flyin, ask! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mortoma
05-14-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
I presume you mean flying with AI in formation...well dont http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...because you will crash into each other and the ground and the sea..mountain etc...make sure that YOU DA MAN up front, in charge,the chief..then they'll follow you...and if you mean online..well exsqueeze me...why fly in formation close enough will do surely...besides you dont want to be too near the others anyway...someones bound to come along and try to shoot them down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I fly with AI all the time and have none of the problems you have mentioned. As a matter of fact, I only fly with AI, and never as flight leader. I do a really fabulous job at it so I don't understand where you are coming from. I have endless tracks of my career missions and every one of them will show that I am flying formation with no problems whatever.

mortoma
05-14-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GuillermoZS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
However, when you are assigned to fly escort, the AI planes fly in such a strange fashion, it's very hard to follow them precisely, even for me. They constantly speed up and slow down, they skid through turns using only rudder ( or mostly rudder ) and also they make extremely abrubt manuevers and turns that would be dangerous to do in real life. I've always wondered where on earth that the guys at Maddox games got the idea that formation flying during escorting is/was even remotely the way it's portrayed in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ThatÔ┬┤s because fighters shouldnÔ┬┤t lose their velocity advantage escorting bombers... so they fly arround the bombers at double speed than them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can fly easily at double spped and not fly anything like the AI does it. They fly like idiots when on escort.
I fly by myself at about 60% throttle and ignore the AI when on escort missions. This is the only
time I don't fly formation with them. My 60% throttle is usually about double speed and I fly nice easy circles around the bombers with no crazy manuevers. This is the way it was done in WWII, at least by American pilots. But one flight would stay on the left side of the bomber stream and one on the right, so they could head the enemy off at the pass. But they made sensible turns, not the crazy antics you see the FB AI do. Sometimes American escorts would fly ahead of the bomber stream too. Sometimes all four sides were covered with the flight at the back at higher altitude. I was talking about crazy manuevers, not speed. Also there is no reason to constantly speed up and slow down like they do. A constant throttle can be maintained.
And you said they fly at double speed but you must not fly with the AI in FB cause when they slow down, they can get absurdly slow, before speed up again.