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View Full Version : Oleg, since you are around now, can you tell us...



SkyChimp
03-05-2004, 07:32 PM
...why you will not correct the roll rate of the P-47D-27?

You obviously modelled it to roll consistently with that NACA report that has a chart with a 30lb stick force, while the other P-47s to roll with a 50lb stick force.

Your doing this seems inconsistent with your statement to Magister_Ludi in the YP-80 thread where you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
Can you measure the load on a stick in a sim? I don't think so.
Compare with P-51 that met standard of USAAF... This you may a bit measure in comparison on the same speeds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=520105952&p=1

Given the roll rates, it seems on CAN measure the force on the stick in a sim. So obviously, the little man in the P-47D-27 is not pushing the stick as hard as the little man in the P-47D-10 and D-22.

Please, this has gone on long enough. Please fix this glaring inconsistency.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

SkyChimp
03-05-2004, 07:32 PM
...why you will not correct the roll rate of the P-47D-27?

You obviously modelled it to roll consistently with that NACA report that has a chart with a 30lb stick force, while the other P-47s to roll with a 50lb stick force.

Your doing this seems inconsistent with your statement to Magister_Ludi in the YP-80 thread where you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
Can you measure the load on a stick in a sim? I don't think so.
Compare with P-51 that met standard of USAAF... This you may a bit measure in comparison on the same speeds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=520105952&p=1

Given the roll rates, it seems on CAN measure the force on the stick in a sim. So obviously, the little man in the P-47D-27 is not pushing the stick as hard as the little man in the P-47D-10 and D-22.

Please, this has gone on long enough. Please fix this glaring inconsistency.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Gunner_361st
03-05-2004, 08:16 PM
That would be nice indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

LuftKuhMist
03-05-2004, 08:29 PM
We will soon have nice grinded horse meat, all tenderized. Yummy!

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

chris455
03-05-2004, 09:26 PM
Here's an extra helping of horsemeat for you, LKM. Can you say...............
BUMP!
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

necrobaron
03-05-2004, 10:38 PM
Ground horse meat really isn't all that bad. Equineburger anyone? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Oh,and.....

BUMP!

"Not all who wander are lost."

LuftKuhMist
03-05-2004, 11:36 PM
I was joking about "beating a dead horse"... but horsemeat is very good anyhow... and more healthy than cowmeat...

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

LuftLuver
03-06-2004, 01:49 AM
Bump

Willey
03-06-2004, 06:48 AM
bwaaaaaaah horse meat :P

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 09:08 AM
In the meantime...do this test:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=527102162

I'd really like to see if its the same problem.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 12:20 PM
SkyChimp...just a thought but I wonder if the D-10, D-22, and D-27 all roll at about the same speed and infact its the initial roll rate that is off on the D-27. The D-10 and D-22 I notice are very responsive to initiating a roll and while its not a extremely fast one it achieves maximum rate fairly quickly. The D-27 seems to be only a second off of the D-22 but it takes longer to achieve maximum rate and thus that may account for the extra second required to make a full 360 degree roll.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

LuftLuver
03-07-2004, 03:07 AM
Oleg remains silent on this. Very strange. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

SkyChimp
03-07-2004, 06:26 AM
crickets chirping

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Aaron_GT
03-07-2004, 07:48 AM
Skychimp, what roll rate do you think the D-27
should get at 220mph (~350kph) IAS?

SkyChimp
03-07-2004, 07:58 AM
220mph IAS is not the issue, as the roll-rate at 220mph IAS with a 30lb stick-force will be very close to what it is with a 50lb stick-force. 30lbs deflects the ailerons almost completely at that speed, so 50lbs will not make that big of a difference and will largely be a wasted effort.

It's higher speeds that are the issue. Here is what it should look like with a 50lb stick force (red line):

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/50lbs.jpg

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

03-07-2004, 08:05 AM
How about YP-80 roll rate, Chimp ? Do you think it`s correct as it is right now ?

Magister__Ludi
03-07-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
220mph IAS is not the issue, as the roll-rate at 220mph IAS with a 30lb stick-force will be very close to what it is with a 50lb stick-force. 30lbs deflects the ailerons almost completely at that speed, so 50lbs will not make that big of a difference and will largely be a wasted effort.

It's higher speeds that are the issue. Here is what it should look like with a 50lb stick force (red line):
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You bored us to death Skychimp. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif

How about posting some funny things like a explanation for the red line you have drawn there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Magister__Ludi
03-07-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VO101_Kurfurst:
How about YP-80 roll rate, Chimp ? Do you think it`s correct as it is right now ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Turn rate at high speed is not for sure. Too bad the resident expert Blotto is not here to confirm.

WWMaxGunz
03-07-2004, 08:13 AM
We can make glue here... lots of it. Hot glue no less.


Neal

03-07-2004, 08:31 AM
Chimp, could you do some detailed testing for the YP-80`s roll rate ? You have so many sources on that area, could you please make a similiar chart like with the P-47 ? After all, US planes is your department..

Aaron_GT
03-07-2004, 09:20 AM
I was just curious, SkyChimp, as the D-27
roll rate in the game seems spot on for
figures for the D-30 posted in the other
P-47 roll rate thread. But the poster who
mentioned the D-30 figures hasn't mentioned
anything for higher speeds. Hopefully they
will (want to prod the other thread, Chimp?)

SeaFireLIV
03-07-2004, 11:55 AM
Great, SkyChimp, just great, and you wonder why Oleg was away so long.... Guess he`ll dissappear again soon... Besides wasn`t your last post on this supposed to be the final one? Probably why he came back.

It never ends...

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/libhawker.jpg
In his excitement to get Ordnance info for Oleg, Hawker made a bit of a mess at the local Library....

SkyChimp
03-07-2004, 03:24 PM
I see Huck and Isegrim, aka the Uber-Twins, aka Magister_Ludi and V101_Whatever, are back with a vengence, both after having been banned.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

faustnik
03-07-2004, 04:20 PM
Gotta support the Chimpster in this age old fight.

The Jug is big, it's fat, it can't turn, but it should be able to roll.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

Bull_dog_
03-07-2004, 05:04 PM
I'm with skychimp and will continue to be.

I don't have as many posts as most folks here, but I support every jug whining thread I can find. I love flying the Jug and now the Lightning as well...heck the Mustang too for that matter. Most of my posts are regarding the flight performance of the Jug

I could tell I flew the Jug alot when people on line started asking me why I wasn't flying a Jug that day...

Oleg has chosen a conservative approach in all aspects of the American "big 3" ...Mustang, Lightning and Jug. I don't know why, but there is not a characteristic on any of those planes that I think is overmodelled...I can't say the same of other aircraft. The lightning is still too new, but overall I like it ...except that gun vibration...but that is another post...still there is no aspect of that plane that I can identify right off that seems over modelled.

Now all we ask for is the roll rate to be fixed on the D-27 and now I'll officially chip in with Paddle Blade props on the D-22/D-27.

Sky Chimp...if you keep posting...I'll keep whining too. Even if we drive poor Oleg to madness... I have a lot of respect for Oleg and the game he has created...best thing going no doubt...I just want my jug to roll and fly like it has a paddle blade prop

GR142_Astro
03-07-2004, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
Oleg has chosen a conservative approach in all aspects of the American "big 3" ...Mustang, Lightning and Jug. I don't know why, but there is not a characteristic on any of those planes that I think is overmodelled...I can't say the same of other aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best summary of US planes in FB I've seen yet. What are you, an attorney? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The US big 3 certainly seem to adhere to the laws of physics, while the toy 190 continues to spin on its axis like it's on a wire.

It is mind boggling that Oleg won't pay a visit to this thread and tell us what is going on here.

The D27 roll rate is too slow.

____________________________

"If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limosine anyway." ~TheClash~

Gunner_361st
03-07-2004, 05:49 PM
Bumpity Bump Bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

chris455
03-07-2004, 10:36 PM
Has Oleg ever taken a stand on this one, as he did the Fw190 forward view debate?

No.

Charts, footage, reports showing that the D27 rollrate is correct "as is"?

None.

Counter-arguments from 1C that only the 30lb stickforce should apply to the D27, not the 50lb?

Silence.

The requests are simply ignored.
An answer would be nice!

There is NO REASON to have corrected the D10 and D22 and left the 27 wallowing.

Through what alchemy was it determined that the reasons to correct the lackluster rollrates of the D10 and D22 were applicable and valid,but that these same argumants did not apply to the D27?

Oleg?

Anyone?

So, Skychimp keeps posting. I hope he keeps posting this till hell freezes over. And lots of us will keep bumping, and maybe someday Oleg will give us a ruling- in the form of an historic rollrate for all the Jugs, or a compelling reason as to why it should not be so.

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

LuftKuhMist
03-08-2004, 12:44 AM
The classic:
Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? No. Can we have it dad? ALL RIGHT YOU CAN HAVE IT BUT SHUT UP!!!

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

LuftLuver
03-08-2004, 02:56 AM
Classic LuftKuhMist post.

You add nothing to this community. Time to excuse yourself.

PzKpfw
03-08-2004, 02:56 PM
Thne problem with LuftKuhMist's post is 'dad' actualy answered 8P.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

LuftKuhMist
03-08-2004, 05:53 PM
I need to excuse myself now?

I don't add nothing to the community but I add money in Oleg's pocket. So I can post here mind you.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

LuftKuhMist
03-08-2004, 06:02 PM
Anyhow I admit that the P47 is cannon fodder right now. Happy? Can I give you a tissue so you're not angry against my poor person?

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

blabla0001
03-08-2004, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VO101_Kurfurst:
How about YP-80 roll rate, Chimp ? Do you think it`s correct as it is right now ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this comming from the guy that is telling off other people when they discuss other things then the topic at hand and says that they try to sabotage his thread.

Why don't you open your own thread about the YP-80 roll rate Barbi, instead of trying to sabotage this thread by trying to change the topic?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

blabla0001
03-08-2004, 06:13 PM
Oh and Barbi, you better change your login from LuftKuhMist to VO101_Kurfurst before you hit the reply button or else it's going to be too obvious....

VW-IceFire
03-08-2004, 06:24 PM
Having Sky Chimps feedback and a little better understanding of the issue I did some more quick tests at higher speeds (500kph) to see what performance I get. While the D-10 rolls in the area of 3-4 seconds the D-27 is way out there at 7 seconds for a 360 degree roll.

Having read this stuff online, seen it on SkyChimps chart, seen some stuff referenced to the NACA tests, and this site which has info from Americas Hundred Thousand (http://www.p47advocates.com/messages/1310.html) it seems like our roll rate is off. So I've gone from convinced its good back to convinced its wrong...but only at high speeds. At speeds like 400 kph its very accurate but at speeds at 500 kph and higher its definately modeled for 30lbs stick force. This partially afflicts the D-22 as well (which seems to reside in the middle).

Unlike some other issues this seems pretty cut and dry. I really do encourage folks to go and test the P-47 out (it'll take you all of 5 minutes) with a stop watch and try and match it to the data floating around on the internet and in books.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

SkyChimp
03-08-2004, 07:19 PM
I think Oleg has stated, in rebutting Huck in another thread, something to the effect that the game doesn't approximate stick force, but rather stick travel.

Ok, that's even better.

The P-47D-27 had the same alerions and aileron range of movement, as well as the same stick and stick movements as the D-22.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

LuftLuver
03-08-2004, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I think Oleg has stated, in rebutting Huck in another thread, something to the effect that the game doesn't approximate stick force, but rather stick travel.

Ok, that's even better.

The P-47D-27 had the same alerions and aileron range of movement, as well as the same stick and stick movements as the D-22.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sooo, given these parameters the D27 should roll just like the 22. I don't think non-jug pilots understand what this would mean for this aircraft. I've spent some decent stick time in the D27 and it would be a new aircraft with a historically accurate roll rate.

Oleg, you there?

Koohullin
03-09-2004, 04:39 AM
He was around today but looks like The Man is ignoring this thread for he does not want to answer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SeaFireLIV
03-09-2004, 06:09 AM
Hmmm...

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/storm.jpg
Soon... Very soon....