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Flydutch
07-08-2004, 10:02 AM
Several accounts from WWII vets state that with the concentrated arsenal of up to 9x .50's that came with Attack A/C like the A-20, A-26, B-25 and the Navy's lockheed Harpoon, They could cut smal ships in two!
Some even claim they could do that even to a Destroyer!
I understand with the patch 2.02 The .50's will be more powerfull then recently.
And I wonder wouldn't it be hard to use the already existing model of ships breaking in two after torpedoed in midship if you used concentrated hits on that area!?
Even the lesser concentrated and converging fire of wing mounted .50's like the Mustang had or the Navy fighters, where able to blow up ships, even of Destroyer size!
I geuss and hope that anti shipping will be a importand part for the future PF sim.
Much can be imroved over the existing air to
sea model.
Thnx,
Kees.

Flydutch
07-08-2004, 10:02 AM
Several accounts from WWII vets state that with the concentrated arsenal of up to 9x .50's that came with Attack A/C like the A-20, A-26, B-25 and the Navy's lockheed Harpoon, They could cut smal ships in two!
Some even claim they could do that even to a Destroyer!
I understand with the patch 2.02 The .50's will be more powerfull then recently.
And I wonder wouldn't it be hard to use the already existing model of ships breaking in two after torpedoed in midship if you used concentrated hits on that area!?
Even the lesser concentrated and converging fire of wing mounted .50's like the Mustang had or the Navy fighters, where able to blow up ships, even of Destroyer size!
I geuss and hope that anti shipping will be a importand part for the future PF sim.
Much can be imroved over the existing air to
sea model.
Thnx,
Kees.

spoonfish
07-08-2004, 10:22 AM
Cut destroyers in half using .50 machine guns????!!!!!????

HAHAHHAHAH

theRealAntEater
07-08-2004, 10:35 AM
You're making a mistake here.
The strafer nose aircraft were not there for destroying ships, but to suppress defensive fire during the bomb run.
Small freighters (especially with steam engines) or wooden ships might be destroyed by .50 cal fire, but not a warship.
All japanese destroyers sunk by land-based bombers were defintely sunk by bomb hits. The .50s did damage to topsides, killing crews of Flak guns and the likes, maybe causing fires, but nothing a good damage control party couldnt handle.
I think those "destroyer" chases come from misidentification of smaller escorts. The japanese had all kinds of small escort ships like Minesweepers, Corvettes and the likes. Those looked vaguely like destroyers to army air force crews.

Latico
07-08-2004, 10:53 AM
The only way I could see the possibility of .50's cutting a destroyer in hald would be from a diving attack with AP munitions. The rounds would have to penetrate through the deck into one of the ships magazines, detinating the ships own ordnance. And even at that, it would be a lucky shot.

I doubt if .50 cal AP can penetrate a destroyers hull since most of it was heavily armored. Small ships would be another matter, but I think you would still have to hit a magazine.

KIMURA
07-08-2004, 10:58 AM
RealAntEater, I'm even in doubt sinking a freighter with 20mm HE. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You'll find pilots reports which states even sinking a PT with gun fire only guns come to a limit of its performance, not to speak of a 5000ton freighter. Take the example B-25G/H, 10 direct hits were at minimun needed to sink a DD, that means at beast. I guess there's no refering needed about the damage a 75mm can do, even if you multiply the 0.5" hits.

Kimura

Flydutch
07-08-2004, 11:07 AM
First of all,
it is not my claim i was not there!
where you?
But as I stated i have read two separate claims from P-51 pilots claiming blowing up a desroyer not cutting them in two!

It seems possible to me that concentrated fire from six .50's could hit something explosiv like boilerroom, feul or ammo storage once in a while.

When you studie WWII guncamera you will see that a lot of times concentrated hits will ignite explosion of the target.

The claim from cutting small ships in two was made in two seperate books in wich one claimed this happend to a destroyer(yes i do think somethimes they mistook smaller vessels for the larger ones (they might have looked bigger to a adrenline fueled pilot!)

Fliger747
07-08-2004, 11:43 AM
WWII vintage DD's and DE's weren't armored at all, but had what is caled "splinter protection" around a few key areas, gun shields, ready ammo boxes, fire control postions etc. The hull plating was quite light, about 1/4" (10 lb plate)as I recall. The magazines were below the waterline, which would protect them from such light projectiles. What would happen with small "tramp steamers" and wooden hulled minesweepers were boiler explosions, fairly spectacular!

Usally aircrews, even Navy ones tended to over estimate damage caused.

JG53Harti
07-08-2004, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Some even claim they could do that even to a Destroyer!
Thnx,
Kees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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theRealAntEater
07-08-2004, 11:59 AM
Well, there are serveral incidents were destroyers were shot to swiss cheese by shore based MGs or by light weapons of other ships and did not sink.
"Splinter protection" in warship sense includes machinegun bullets.
.50s did certainly do topside damage to Destroyers, I've read multiple accounts of japanese destroyers losing their captains or their entire bridge crews to strafing US fighters, but nothing critical for the ship itself.
I know an occasion during Normandy when two british destroyer shot up a german picket trawler at night. This battle was fought at night at close ranges and the german ship raked the decks of the british ships with 20mm before succumbing to their superior firepower. Both destroyers sustained numerous 20mm hits and extensive topside damage and some casualties, but were never in danger of sinking. So you there you have even more firepower than a Strafer B-25, multiple 20mm cannons and maybe a 3,7 as well shooting at pointblank range at a stationary target, and still the damage was controllable.
At least in ETO, it seems warships were generally quite insensitive to air attacks, even german PT boats sometimes survived direct rocket hits.

GerritJ9
07-08-2004, 02:37 PM
German S-Boote (PT boats) had diesel engines, rather than the petrol engines of British MTBs and US PT boats. Because of their less volatile fuel they were much less likely to go up in a ball of flame than the Allied boats.

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 02:46 PM
is that a new .50 whinning post...? well, just whine enough and you'll get what you ask.

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VW-IceFire
07-08-2004, 02:47 PM
I seriously doubt that even a concentrated and sustained burst by a multitude of attacking bombers would cut destroyers in half. Destroyers are a very serious warship with plenty of armor and hull plating protection. They are designed to absorb battle damage from much more serious weaponry than the .50cal machine gun. What the concentrated nose guns on the Mitchell would do is cause damage to lightly armored or sensitive areas of the upper structure. You would take out gunner stations, damage structures, and cause havoc in those upper sections but you would likely not sink the vessel. Unless ammunition was stupidly stored and then the ship may explode...

The ships that were cut in half were smaller and less armored than destroyers. I know that P-40's in one particular battle found a grouping of small wooden decked transports. The squadron straffed the ships and returned to base. Returned later in the day and did it again. Returned later at night and set both ships on fire...these were smaller vessels and they eventually burned up and sank. They weren't destroyers and after the first attack they likely had no AAA defenses.

Plus those guns on the Mitchell were probably fantastic for the low level hit and run on airfields. Aircraft would succumb to that sort of firepower easily.

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Rhavin_
07-08-2004, 04:09 PM
Aside from ready magazines and depth charges, I can't think of all that much in the way of explosive targets on a DD.
I too have heard stories of destoyers being strafed to the point of explosion. The one account I read involved B-25 gunships. They blew the stern off the DD when the depth charges were jarred loose by cannon and mg fire. Of course I've also read about a large formation of P-51s (D model I think..) shooting up a DD in the Pacific. They lost two aircraft to AA fire and only damaged the DD when one of the burning 'Stangs crashed onto it's bow.

I think the B-25 attack was probably a freak occurance mixed with poor seamanship. (armed depth charges on the deck during an air attack) Strange stuff can happen during a war though. Just watch 1985's Amazing Stories Episode #5 entitled The Mission http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

CORTO.M
07-08-2004, 04:25 PM
Cutting ships in two with .50 mg
this is just a bad joke...

lol (and a P51 was first on the moon....)

As Oleg said last week:

Olegs Words: Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...We give the best effience of elevator on High speed for P-51...

So now you have your arcade P51...pls stop whinning...

Fliger747
07-08-2004, 05:42 PM
Having spent a bit of time underway on several WWII DD's, Fletcher and Gearing Class and a DE of the same vintage (the DE a veteran of Leyte Gulf) I'll assure there was no armour! They weren't called "tin can's" for nothing. Modern "destroyers" are much larger, almost the size of a Brit Light Crusier of WWII!

DD's were variously armed with torpedo tubes, which adds to the potential pyrotechnics aboard. Many of the DE's were armed with the "Hedgehog" projector as well, more potential pyrotechnics. It is surprising that they were as sturdy as they were!

Atomic_Marten
07-08-2004, 06:18 PM
I saw few clips of P-51 strafing. Yes they destroy some ship near Italian coast (that clip appers in movie about redtail P-51 and afro-american pilots who flew them - if I remember correctly). But I doubt that u can do anything to destroyer size ship with .50cal. Even when u crash on her deck like kamikaze were. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 06:41 PM
Those redtailed pilots were the "Tuskegee airmens" , a brilliant FS of WWII

(no idea of what they could have straffed)

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Copperhead310th
07-08-2004, 06:50 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.giffor those who DO NOT BELIVE. better wise up chumps. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

from-Thunderbolt! the Republic p-47 thunderbolt in the pacific. by: ernest r. mcdowell

on the 58th fIGHTER group:

the 58th Fg was awarded a DCU for action that took place off of Mindoro. @ 1800hrs the group was notified that a Japanese task force consisting of 1 battle ship, a heavy cruiser, & 6 destroyers was heading for Mindoro. With only 32 P-47's avalible & battle ready Col. Atkinson picked his 31 most experianced pilots for what seemed a suicide mission. the 69th FS sent up 14 Jugs with the 310th FS furnishing the remainder. Col Atkinson lead the group off @ 2015 hrs while the strip was under attack by Japanese aircraft. the rest of the group followed into the growing darkness.
Lt. Joe Burmuda ran off the runway in the dark & crashed. Major Self & his 69th fs pilots did no get off the ground untill 2130 hrs. one more p-47 was lost on tAKE OFF and a 3rd had to rtb due to engine trouble. THE LAST JUG DID NOT GET AIRBORN UNTILL 2300 hrs.
formation flying was impossible. due to the darkness. so it was everyman for himself. One of the 1st pilots to take of spotted the wakes of the japanese ships glowing in the moonlight.
At 1st the pilots tried to attack while keeping the moon to the ships. but after the 1st pass and the shooting begain, the enemey warships lit up the night sky like the 4th of July.
the ship gunner could not see the p-47's untill the Thunderbolts fired, so the pilots came in at them from all directions- staying on the deck and flying in @ 350-400 mph. after a straifing pass the pilots would switch on thier landing lights after they were out of range to avoid a collition while they climed out. the pilots truned them off again after they turned back for another pass.

P-47's weak my AZZ. .50 cal brownings had no hitting power. lol what a F*cking laugh.
be sure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 07:08 PM
The P47 may have it soemthing really explosive on the deck, or something..

but, im sure you have quite an impartial opinion on .50's Copperhead.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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Atomic_Marten
07-08-2004, 07:08 PM
What exaclty is your point Copperhead? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

ImpStarDuece
07-08-2004, 07:30 PM
Yeah Copperhead. I dont see any proof in that quote. Just an account of P-47 strafing a Japanese battle group and the Japanese returning fire. Surely your not suggesting that the 47s destroyed any of the battle group. All it says is that the ships were straffed and then returned fire. "Lit up the night sky like the 4th of July", if thats what your using as evidence, most likely refers to the birghtness and volume of AAA fire, not enemy damage.

Still straffing attacks with 50 cals would rip up anyone exposed on the deck and punch through lightly armoured structures causing a pretty considerable inconvenience to the battle group.

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Copperhead310th
07-08-2004, 07:31 PM
And like you don't have a bias?
c'mon. PA-LEEESE! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure if the german weapons in AEP were as inaffective as the M@ Brownings are you would be
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif your butts off Immel. but that's not the case is it. as long as the 50 cal m2 brwonings stay porked you LW guys have got easy kills.
and will try to counter anything positive the USAAF flyers here do to get it corected. The LW fanboys are an effective lobby. Such is the nature of the ardent Luft-Whiner. But this is PF? what are you doing in here again? no Run-o-Nines or Run-Ninties in the pacific. oh but wiat.... let me guess. your here to prove that they were in the pacific right? some sort of top secret Axis lend less program thee details of which have been hidden untill just this week eh?

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Copperhead310th
07-08-2004, 07:31 PM
And like you don't have a bias?
c'mon. PA-LEEESE! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure if the german weapons in AEP were as inaffective as the M@ Brownings are you would be
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif your butts off Immel. but that's not the case is it. as long as the 50 cal m2 brwonings stay porked you LW guys have got easy kills.
and will try to counter anything positive the USAAF flyers here do to get it corected. The LW fanboys are an effective lobby. Such is the nature of the ardent Luft-Whiner. But this is PF? what are you doing in here again? no Run-o-Nines or Run-Ninties in the pacific. oh but wiat.... let me guess. your here to prove that they were in the pacific right? some sort of top secret Axis lend less program thee details of which have been hidden untill just this week eh?

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Copperhead310th
07-08-2004, 07:31 PM
And like you don't have a bias?
c'mon. PA-LEEESE! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure if the german weapons in AEP were as inaffective as the M@ Brownings are you would be
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif your butts off Immel. but that's not the case is it. as long as the 50 cal m2 brwonings stay porked you LW guys have got easy kills.
and will try to counter anything positive the USAAF flyers here do to get it corected. The LW fanboys are an effective lobby. Such is the nature of the ardent Luft-Whiner. But this is PF? what are you doing in here again? no Run-o-Nines or Run-Ninties in the pacific. oh but wiat.... let me guess. your here to prove that they were in the pacific right? some sort of top secret Axis lend less program thee details of which have been hidden untill just this week eh?

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 07:51 PM
is that the nervosity that is makin you post 3 times the same insults..?

Im not a LW or a VVS or a USAAF player.. Im an Il2FB/AEP player..

and I think that even if the .50 are more effective in 2.02, I did like them more in 2.01, which were for me more realistic from what i saw in gun footage. I never had any difficulties to shoot down anything with .50 .. actually, this my my favorite weapons of the game.

in 2.02, yeah sure, they are more effective, and look like green laser beam (vvs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but I think it is less realistic visually speakin.

thats it. I did not need any improvement of .50s, cause they were so deadly already. but now, they are even more. good. its better for me also.

Now, you are askin me what im doin here..? well.. my friend, you are true, no 109 or 190 here, but I could be flying your beloved Corsairs or Hellcat before you even saw a screenshot of it.

Dont be so sad..

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 07:54 PM
and, for ur personal information (so you will go to sleep just a bit more intelligent tonight), you are true.. Some german planes were actually sent to Japan for try outs.

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RCJ99
07-08-2004, 08:03 PM
A WWII destroyer was a fast ship filled with ammo, explosives and torpedo fuel.

Only the US protected their destroyers against
shell/bomb splinters and bullets. The british and japanese destoyers had no more steel than was needed to build the ship.

There is alot of gun camera footage showing US
planes churning the water white around destroyers and they do blow up when the boilers
or magazines are hit.

Its not the 50cals that cut the ship in half its the secondary explosion

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 08:06 PM
yah, that may be, Like I said before. the load on the deck could do it.

but dont try to make us believe that 8x .50s can cut a destroyer in 2 pieces like a sword http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-08-2004, 08:08 PM
I mean, this is not upon .50s..

with your theory, .30 , or german 13mm, or an Italians breda could do the same.

this is not about weapons strenght, but ships weakness.

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fordfan25
07-08-2004, 09:58 PM
i cant speak for any thing but the U.S DD,s becouse i know little about the make up of the jap DD,s as of right now but i can say unless some idot had high explosives stacked on the deck of a u.s DD there is no way any amount of 50. cals could take down a dd. now transport ships and sub,s yes i have seen videos of that lol.

VW-IceFire
07-08-2004, 10:21 PM
Copperhead...great post on the story. I'm sure these things happened...but it doesn't say anywhere in there that they were able to sink the taskforce.

Impressive attack and I'm sure the pilots put on a good show and gave the Japanese navy some real hassles (attack is better than no attack at all and surely they did some damage) but I don't see them having destroyed a vessel. Not without more serious firepower. If every P-47 was armed with HVAR's and pounded some of those ships...then yes...heck yes they would have done some very serious damage. I'm not disputing the potential for airpower, especially from the P-47 (another one of my favorites) but I doubt that .50cal was sufficient to sink destroyer (and up) class vessels except in extremely rare cases where the .50cal set off a secondary explosion that actually did the damage.

These sorts of posts give ammunition to the guys who think were nuts when we say that .50cal doesn't do all that we expected. Destroying Tiger tanks and full blown Destroyers aren't commonplace with this weapon. Blowing the heck out of a FW190 with a well aimed burst on the other hand is quite credible.

Lets not give that particularly small and vocal crowd too much firepower http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Gibbage1
07-08-2004, 10:39 PM
I was talking to a WWII vet about the .50 cal. He said he never really believed in the power of the .50 cal till 1 day he and his wingman were straifing a ship. The ship was a large one with a metal hull. After be did his run (thinking he did not do a damn thing) and passed the ship, he watched his wingman do his run, and the bulletes were exiting from the other side of the ship! He never again doubted the power of the .50 cal.

I dont think a pack of .50's will take down a destroyer, but it can sink a sizeable ship. Just like a fighter, all you need to do is hit something important http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dierk3er
07-09-2004, 12:21 AM
What really happened! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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RdTimeTheCharm
07-09-2004, 01:25 AM
Yes, the .50 MG was indeed more powerfull than currently modeled in FB.

Here is a photo shot by pacific P47 pilot after strafing an island. Unluckily though there was a malfunction and only one bullet actually hit the island, leaving some parts undamaged.

"the war was soon to a end after we could get a P51 close enough to do a strafing mission to Hiroshima and Nagasaki"
- Gen McDonalds

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Pentallion
07-09-2004, 01:43 AM
"Destroying Tiger tanks and full blown Destroyers aren't commonplace with this weapon."

No but the inverse is sadly true in this game. Getting destroyed by Tiger tanks happens all the time. In reality, I doubt it EVER happened.

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Giganoni
07-09-2004, 02:41 AM
I don't doubt that Japanese DDs would light up like the fourth. In the late war the Japanese started putting lots and lots of aa guns on those ships.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 04:19 AM
as Butch2k said on the checksix-fr.com forum, you can have a P-47 destroy a tiger or a destroyer with .50... but that is something that would happend once every 1000 try.. just because you hit something very explosive on the deck, or below the tank.

But I dont believe that you should kill a tiger evertime you shoot at it while he is on a concrete road, or sink a "metallic" ship by cutting it in 2 pieces.

Gibbage, I respet what the Vet told you, and of course this must be true, but you know, it could have been a wooden ship, or a ship carrying some explosive thing unprotected etc etc.

th idea of a 12.7m burst acting like a saw on heavy steel, is an hollywood idea, not a reasonnable one.

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 04:25 AM
btw Icefire, as for this :

"Blowing the heck out of a FW190 with a well aimed burst on the other hand is quite credible."

personally, it was often the case for me, and that since I had .50 on the P39 and P40. even more true with 51 and 47.

you just need to use the weapons at the good distance.

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Warlordimi
07-09-2004, 04:46 AM
Maybe you should borrow a single .50 and fire it towards an hardened steel plate of 3 or more centimeters. Close distance. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Tailking about things you know is a bit different than arguing about things you read.

The gun footage that you can watch, usually do not show DD's, but unshielded transports. you can sink that kind of boat with a strong straffing. But do not expect yours ammo to go through the DD shielding.

That would be great, DD's and CV taking a half dozen of bombs and torpedoes and still afloat! No more dive or skipbombing, no more A-bombs!!! Just send a few Invaders or anything else that carries 12 .50!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Does it happen to you to read what you write down???

BTW, the 332FG managed to destroy a DD, but not with 6 .50, it was with a standard bomb loadout.

Ok, plz, could we stop answering (including me) this kind of X-wing whinnig posts???

theRealAntEater
07-09-2004, 05:10 AM
The 322nd attacked the german TA 22, which was classified as a torpedo boat.
It was in fact an old WW1 destroyer (build 1915) captured from the italians. It had about half the size of a WW2 destroyer, and actually the designation "torpedo boat" was wrong, since it carried no torpedoes anymore! It was in fact some kind of medium sized antisubmarine escort.

While it did not sink, it was damaged so heavily that it was never repaired again.

JG53_Goetz
07-09-2004, 05:57 AM
U are a trifle bemused,hmm?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Destroyers with .50, lool...


eins zwei drei und nochmal feste druff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Warlordimi
07-09-2004, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by theRealAntEater:
The 322nd attacked the german TA 22, which was classified as a torpedo boat.
It was in fact an old WW1 destroyer (build 1915) captured from the italians. It had about half the size of a WW2 destroyer, and actually the designation "torpedo boat" was wrong, since it carried no torpedoes anymore! It was in fact some kind of medium sized antisubmarine escort.

While it did not sink, it was damaged so heavily that it was never repaired again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx for correcting me!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sharpe26
07-09-2004, 06:50 AM
http://www.virtualfighters.net/Ruzne/video/guncamera/Pacific_antiship.avi

take a look at his footage. Compare what happpens to each of the ships shown, and don't forget to consider the number of attacks made.

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 08:15 AM
well.. im sorry, but I see no ship being cut in 2 pieces..

I see only ships taking heavy .50 that would kill anything alive on the deck, but wont do any serious damage to the superstructure.

Exept the one being blown up by the ignition of som high explosive on the deck, no one of this ship seem to have sustained any consequent damage.-

to say the truth this video is a nice example to show how 2.01 dispersion model of .50 is more accurate than 2.02 laser beams.

just look at the splash in water, and compares the 2 patches version.. and tell me which one is more realistic visually speakin..

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Nanuk66
07-09-2004, 09:01 AM
I think someone should send all this data to Oleg immediately!

Surely, with documentation like the original posters and copperheads quote from a book he will almost certainly see that .50's should cut destroyers in half!!!

Talk about chip on your shoulder copper! the discussion was goin reasonably well until you quoted some wierd account that had nothing to do with wot the thread was goin on about. Then the first person that points that out to you is damned as a luftwhiner to which you also bring up the 'ol .50 cal debate.

And before you start im not a luftwhiner, ameriwhiner, ruskiwhiner or anything else. I just dont like completely bias fly-nothing-else 'i want my p47 to rock' whiners like urself. Its been done to death already.

If u wanna make a comment just tell meh if u think a bunch of harmonised .50 cal's could 'saw a destroyer in half'. Cause i dont think it can and if that makes me anti-american or a luftwhiner then so be it - but im neither.

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That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
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Sharpe26
07-09-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
well.. im sorry, but I see no ship being cut in 2 pieces..

I see only ships taking heavy .50 that would kill anything alive on the deck, but wont do any serious damage to the superstructure.

Exept the one being blown up by the ignition of som high explosive on the deck, no one of this ship seem to have sustained any consequent damage.-

to say the truth this video is a nice example to show how 2.01 dispersion model of .50 is more accurate than 2.02 laser beams.

just look at the splash in water, and compares the 2 patches version.. and tell me which one is more realistic visually speakin..

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looks like I got my point across then. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I knew from the start at .50s can't cut ships in half. airplanes sure, though I will admit that this will be quiet hard accomplish with a bomber.

Mr_Nakajima
07-09-2004, 09:28 AM
The histories of Japanese and especially German destroyers are well documented. If you believe that they could be sunk in other than freakish circumstances by 0.5" fire (or .303", or 20mm cannon fire for that matter) you should be able to find examples of it happening.

My main interest is naval history rather than aviation hitory, and in all my reading across the last two decades I have not come across an account of a destroyer sized ship or larger being sunk by machinegun fire alone. I am not saying that it could not have happened, but if you are making such a claim you need to give a concrete example of it having occured - ship name, date, etc.

AnaK774
07-09-2004, 09:38 AM
Have to agree with Immel there (rare)

M2 was good gun, but it wasnt laser beam or tactical nuke launcher

AKA LeOs.K_Anak

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Have to agree with Immel there (rare)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

everything may happend mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

thx to all reasonnable posters of this thread-

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Lancelot_ecv56
07-09-2004, 11:05 AM
I just saw the vide and Merlin is absolutely right.

- First you can see that a lot of the ships straffed are transports, ships that are far less armored that destroyers or any warship.

- Seccond, the first ship that show it blows up, you can't tell what kind of ship it is, you only see its a very small ship, could be a transport, could be a torpedo boat, but certainly its not a destroyer, or anything close to that.

- Third, the followed example of a ship straffed, after the first ship that shows it explode, you clearly see its a warship, and very probably a destroyer, and IT DOESN'T BLOW UP, or get cut in half, or anything. It's just being straffed.

- Fourth, that last cut of straffing, and the seccond example where you see that a ships blows up, you can't tell what kind of ship it is. The quality of the video is too poor to tell. You only see its also a small ship, but can't tell if its a transport, warships, or even a submarine.

- And last, even if a lot the of the splashes are caused becaue of the bullets bouncing over the hull of the ships, you can also see that there is a lot of disperssion on the bullets, and are not as accurate as people say here it should be.

So just pointing out accounts of pilotos straffing destroyers, cruisers, battleships, aircraft carriers or whatever, doesn't mean they were sunk because of the straffing.

Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!

FooFTR
07-09-2004, 12:15 PM
I remember reading some ago about a Japanese destroyer being sunk by a .50 cal attack but i can't remember the source or exact specifics of the incident. What i recall is that it was a turbine powered destroyer & the .50 cal's destroyed the turbine and its catastrophic falure sunk the destroyer. A wildcat pilot in the defense of wake did sink a Japanese destroyer with .50 cal fire & 100 pd. bombs.

pcisbest
07-09-2004, 12:43 PM
Okay, how can ANYBODY seriously think that a warship could be sunk by a strafing run, let alone a full-blown destroyer?!!? I cant believe this thread has even gotten this far...3 pages? Come on! The answer should have been obvious, that no machine gun ever made will be able to sink a destroyer by hitting its hull, that is just comical! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If this was the case, destroyers and battleships wouldnt really have needed their main guns would they, they couldve just used the machine guns mounted around deck. Heck, if a .50 caliber bullet could do that much damage to a destroyer, I wouldve hated to have seen what the AA guns and Bofors mounted on the ships would have done in this fictional world some of you guys live in.

Seriously, I think many of you championing for this over-the-top .50 caliber damage need to 1.) learn the difference between a steam-powered cargo ship and an actual warship, 2.) get rid of your biases about Ma Deuce, 3.) read this site: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm , and 4.) pick up a book on elementary physics and/or ballistics.

Yellonet
07-09-2004, 12:53 PM
Couldn't agree with you more pcisbest.

Somebody lock this thread, please, it's just feeding stupidity.


- Yellonet

Third_of_Five
07-09-2004, 01:29 PM
I just do not see point of this thread. We are not little children (well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) to believe this kind of stories.

I just want to point out that many U.S. ships were not sunk even if they take kamikaze direct hit, or Japanese ships with direct bomb hit. And no ammo is comparable with bombs. And yes, if .50 were so powerful, imagine what larger caliber ammo can do then. I can not. I just wish you guys get your PF as soon as possible and go ahead with strafing runs on ships. There is great chance that you will be cutted in two pieces instead of ship. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

pcisbest
07-09-2004, 01:42 PM
They can try it out now, just go to QMB on the Online8Islands map with a P-51 or 47, and strafe the little ships, or go to the Crimea map and strafe those: trust me, the results will be less then spectacular http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

BTW maybe you heard interviews of old WWII fighter pilots saying how they "sawed 'em in half", this does not mean they literally sawed the steel hull in half, it is old fighter jock slang meaning you pelted the enemy pretty substantially http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Flydutch
07-09-2004, 02:15 PM
Gentlemen, Gentlemen,

I certainly have ignited some serious firework here!

1/ I am not complaining about the velocity impact of the .50 period!

2/ The Claim of the .50's cuttingships intwo are again, not made by me but I read this in a couple of books dealing with anti-shipping straffing (I read a lot)

3/ I was not there! where you?
Nor have I seen ships cutthrough, I did see ships blow up alot in Guncamera film/photo.
Even IF I have not seen it, or did it, it does not mean it is not possible or did not happen!

That is like claiming Us Humans are the only living Intelegent species in this entire universe Because I did not see any!
But lets not start a post on wheater to include UFO's or not in PF!


BTW Interesting Guncamera footage, a shame it seems to be only from the less concentrated wing mounted MG's

LW_Black4
07-09-2004, 02:39 PM
I agree that it's comical to think that .50 cals could take out a ship. However, under the right circumstances it may be possible to come close. Here's a historical example.

Coral Sea Battle - Fighter Sweep to Tulagi

The hurt minesweeper Tama Maru, who was limping north at the time was strafed by 4 F4F-3 Wildcat fighter planes looking for the 'Pete' floatplanes that were harassing the Devastators earlier that day. From this low altitude attack, the Tama Maru ran aground and finally sank two days later. From the same attack, those same planes found the old Japanese destroyer Yuzuki and it had to crawl back to Rabaul for emergency repairs after 10 of her crew were killed, including their skipper, and 20 more were wounded.

Spyros, Pablo and I are developing the campaign and this is the history my research has revealed, from the book "The First Team".

LW_Black4

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-09-2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CORTO.M:
_Cutting ships in two with .50 mg_
this is just a bad joke...

lol (and a P51 was first on the moon....)

As Oleg said last week:

_Olegs Words: Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...We give the best effience of elevator on High speed for P-51..._

So now you have your arcade P51...pls stop whinning...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do research on the high speed elevator control for the Mustang and you will see that you statment becomes even more ridiculous and noobish then it already sounds.

People who throw up comments like that are just noobs and flamers.

Good Day

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Tater-SW-
07-09-2004, 03:21 PM
We can get into specifics of what type of ships might have been sunk by strafing alone, but I think from my reading it is clear some were. Pilots attacking escort ships below the size of a full DD might well report them as a DD anyway.

Regardless, I think the game should include either a DM for ships that allows for some serious damage under the right circumstances, or outright sinking in the case of smaller craft (the japanese built far far far more ocean going (barely) small ships and boats than the US as a % of strength).

Another factor is that in accounts from the slot, a DD could very well have ammunition, etc on the decks as they were used in "fast transport" duty.

I'd hate to see any kind of ship DM that allowed for something like a DD sinking after X rounds of whatever hit it, but I would like to see the possibility of fires starting, etc as long as it is realistic. CLs and up would also be vulnerable near their aircraft if they are aboard ship, and the fuel stores have not been made safe (something they'd do if expecting action, but maybe not for surprise air attack).

tater

Yellonet
07-09-2004, 04:05 PM
I do say... this thread has come too far already http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Yes, a ship can be sunk by .50 cal. ammunition. But not all (hardly none) ships can be sunk as a direct cause of .50 cal. fire.

If a ship is destroyed after being shot up by machineguns it is most likely because of some ammo or fuel igniting and - boom - you've got a big hole in your ship...

As for litterally cutting a ship in half with .50 cal. machineguns.. I just can't see this happening unless it's a really small ship made out of wood. Just try shooting a wooden rowing-boat in two with a rifle, that would take a whole lot of bullets... and that's just a rowing-boat.


- Yellonet

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, a ship can be sunk by .50 cal. ammunition. But not all (hardly none) ships can be sunk as a direct cause of .50 cal. fire.

If a ship is destroyed after being shot up by machineguns it is most likely because of some ammo or fuel igniting and - boom - you've got a big hole in your ship...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


that means that even a "lighter" dropped by a P51 at the good spot, could do the job http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Yellonet
07-09-2004, 04:44 PM
Yep.

You could even sink a ship by spitting into the wind. The wind takes the saliva and carries it into someone's eye his hand goes to his eye and the cigarette he was holding flies.... straight down the neck of the dude behind the LSOs shirt, he screams with pain and runs away almost knocking the LSO over... the LSO in a futile attempt to regain his balance drops both his arms and skillfully guides a fully laden Dauntless into the stern of the carrier... boom! Bubble bubble...


- Yellonet

Gibbage1
07-09-2004, 05:39 PM
Its a little known fact that the Yamato was sunk by a P-47. Bombs and torpedo's could not penetrate the thick armor, so they sent a lone P-47 in. The pilot shot the water, the bulletes bounced off the sea floor, and entered the weaker belly armor. True! I read it on the internet somewere. Ow ya!!! In the GD.

Gib

Waldo.Pepper
07-09-2004, 06:07 PM
I pray that this thread goes on FOREVER!

I have not laughed so hard in days.

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-09-2004, 06:44 PM
..strange Gib.. in the version I read, the P47 had to dive underwater for a few sec, than shoot below the hardened belly, than pass below the Yamato and climb high again.

However, this was quite a dangerous move, since that if you would have forgotten to close the canopy.. well, you know.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Gibbage1
07-09-2004, 06:48 PM
I think if Oleg modeled this, the P-47 would overheat even unter water http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
..strange Gib.. in the version I read, the P47 had to dive underwater for a few sec, than shoot below the hardened belly, than pass below the Yamato and climb high again.

However, this was quite a dangerous move, since that if you would have forgotten to close the canopy.. well, you know.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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heywooood
07-09-2004, 06:59 PM
Yes the 'Amphibious Jug' was notorious for its propensity to overheat... but the plasmatorch muzzle flash was so effective at cutting steel underwater that the DoD decided to overlook this small drawback in its overall performance.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Yellonet
07-09-2004, 07:08 PM
During Operation Desert Storm sgt. Henry Brown became the first to have a score of over 30 T-72 kills as he got up to 33 confirmed kills before he was shipped home to a hero's welcoming. He was a machinegun operator in a M1 tank who had developed a special tactic for dealing with enemy tanks, in his own words: Well I sit up in the turret with my M2 and keep a looksie after them ruskie T-72s see, when I spot one I holler to the guys downstairs - go for it boys.. then we sneak up on 'em real close see.. and then I'll just let em have a real good taste of my polly here [Here sgt. Brown pats his machinegun] and BOOOM there he goes.. dang ruskie.


- Yellonet

Yellonet
07-09-2004, 07:16 PM
Is this the thread that will continue in the spirit of the Adam Bomb? The Adam Bomb legacy is indeed a heavy burden.. the complete and utter ignorance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif


- Yellonet

heywooood
07-09-2004, 07:20 PM
This thread IS Da bomb..



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Tater-SW-
07-09-2004, 07:47 PM
I don't think there is some artificial distinction between a ship "sinking to .50 cal fire" and a ship sinking as the result of secondary explosions due to fires caused by .50 cal fire. It would be like saying the Hood didn't sink to naval gunfire, it sank because of a magazine explosion.

That said, the "cut in half" stuff is obviously an exaggeration. A decent enough ship DM should allow for fire and secondary explosions (gassed up planes and bomb carts on deck on CVs, anyone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), and API starts fires.

tater

SkyChimp
07-09-2004, 08:03 PM
Of course the .50 could cut a Japanese ship in two - if the pilot wanted to.

This ship
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/shippics/mikuma.jpg
was strafed by a Wildcat. He didn't land very many hits since 5 of his guns were jammed.

Here, you can see geysers from the .50 slugs striking the water
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/shippics/nachi.jpg

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/j-rogers.gif

LimaZulu
07-09-2004, 08:13 PM
Hey RdTimeTheCharm, what is that explosion actually from?

LZ

Copperhead310th
07-09-2004, 08:17 PM
Guys my whole point in posting that story about the 58th Fg was because they actually used the Jugs to attcak those ships. Armed ONLY with .50 cal Browning M2's. they were under attack. Now why in the sam hell would Col. Atkinson risk the limited amount of planes & his best pilots by attacking those ships with guns only if there was not a good chance of sinking some of them. i mean really think abought it. Even the toughest Japanese naval ship was lightly Armored compaierd to US, or German standerds.
soft decks made of mostly wood...after all if you punch a guy in the nose he just bleeds & wipes his nose. but if you stab him in the heart you kill him. i NEVER sugested that 50's could cut a Destroyer in 1/2 "like a Sword". but it could damage 1 to the point of being severaly disabled. and if a vital organ such as a boiler or magazine were to be hit by heavy MG's....
honestly just stop & think about it for a min.
stop letting your animosoty for all things USA cloud your judgment.

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310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

IIJG11_Spreckels
07-09-2004, 10:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
Having spent a bit of time underway on several WWII DD's, Fletcher and Gearing Class and a DE of the same vintage (the DE a veteran of Leyte Gulf) I'll assure there was no armour! They weren't called "tin can's" for nothing. Modern "destroyers" are much larger, almost the size of a Brit Light Crusier of WWII!

DD's were variously armed with torpedo tubes, which adds to the potential pyrotechnics aboard. Many of the DE's were armed with the "Hedgehog" projector as well, more potential pyrotechnics. It is surprising that they were as sturdy as they were!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely correct !! Although the DE's a DD's were lightly armored, it is amazing the amount of damage they could sustain.
The link below will show you what I am talking about. If you want to read a story about courage against overwhelming odds - whoa there - we are talking about Japanese battlewagons and heavy cruisers against the bravest men and the guttiest little ships in the history of the US Navy.

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors
http://www.tincansailorsbook.com/index.html
and read about the battle at
http://www.tincansailorsbook.com/battle.html

fordfan25
07-09-2004, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Its a little known fact that the Yamato was sunk by a P-47. Bombs and torpedo's could not penetrate the thick armor, so they sent a lone P-47 in. The pilot shot the water, the bulletes bounced off the sea floor, and entered the weaker belly armor. True! I read it on the internet somewere. Ow ya!!! In the GD.

Gib<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hay dont laugh...a friend of mine was hurt in that very incident. he was scuba diveing next thing you know BAAM some s.o.b shoots him in the head. luckly he was a yankee and the bullet didnt hit any thing important. lol

VW-IceFire
07-09-2004, 10:35 PM
At least there is some good humor around here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-10-2004, 12:04 AM
Copperhead. be assured. Nobody is against USA here, at least im not. Im moving to you country next august, so believe me, no fatal aversion of mine for the USA.

I just hope to have a NON-half biased PF just to make the north american average buyer happy, you know.

I dont know if you noticed it, but american planes of FB are already quite easy to fly, and without "personality", which I personaly find sad, cause they are my favourite.

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pcisbest
07-10-2004, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Of course the .50 could cut a Japanese ship in two - if the pilot wanted to.

This ship
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/shippics/mikuma.jpg
was strafed by a Wildcat. He didn't land very many hits since 5 of his guns were jammed.

Here, you can see geysers from the .50 slugs striking the water
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/shippics/nachi.jpg

_Regards,_
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/j-rogers.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Texas LongHorn
07-10-2004, 05:38 AM
Hey Spreckels, great link to a superb book. "Tin Can Sailors" is a great read. Besides, the Fletcher class Destroyer was just about the finest purpose built ship ever developed for the US Navy. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg

IIJG11_Spreckels
07-10-2004, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Texas LongHorn:
Hey Spreckels, great link to a superb book. "Tin Can Sailors" is a great read. Besides, the Fletcher class Destroyer was just about the finest purpose built ship ever developed for the US Navy. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rgr that LongHorn
Thanks - I have been a student of the naval war in the Pacific for about 25 years.
OT - My cousin was lost on the USS Indianapolis on July 30, 1945. For those unfamiliar with the tragic death of the "Indy", I built the follwoing memorial page for my cousin which tells the story.
The Indy has been the inspiration for several movies and books and was mentioned in the original "Jaws" movie.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/annisall/JamesB.html

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/annisall/images/JamesB.gif

Vampiric666
07-10-2004, 10:19 AM
ok, u can have .50s cutting destroyers in 2.... but i expect having japanese 30mm cannons sinking carriers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Gunner_361st
07-10-2004, 11:43 AM
You are all mistaken. The .50 HMG COULD sink WWII destroyers. All the ground crew needed to do is use the depleted uranium rounds, much like they do today in the A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank ground attack plane.

Granted, you need to get the Flux Capicitor functioning properly so you can travel back in time to deliver this ammunition to Allied forces, but hey... Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

Does anyone know if my egg and porkroll sandwich is finished yet? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Major Gunner of the 361st vFG

P.S. - I truly hope that they include small, wooden transport ships for people to sink so a thread like this, as amusing as it is, never appears again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1087.jpg

Hans-Schultz
07-10-2004, 12:58 PM
the tuskegee airmen sunk a destroyer with .50s

Bull_dog_
07-10-2004, 04:16 PM
.50's not only could sink ships, they did. Any unarmored vessel would be damaged by them. Submarines, Cargo ships, and Destroyers were sunk with guns...although this wasn't just a routine thing. Often when a fighter aircraft got close enough to a destroyer to damage it, the plane was shot down by AAA, not the other way around.

I read one instance in the Philippines where a P-51 pilot sunk a Destoyer out of self defense when after making a run at a target he rolled out and found himself in gun range of a destroyer and heading at it at high speed. The Jap destroyer, realizing an attack was just made, began to open up and the Mustang pilot started firing hoping to clear the deck and avoid being shot down...apperently, he hit a vital spot and blew it up! Credit one destroyer to a Mustang...the account makes it out to be a most unusual occurance...certainly not planned and not the norm.

Cutting a ship in two??? Well I don't know about that, but there are plenty of small ships, subs and other vessels that fell prey to .50 cal MG's...not cruisers or battleships, but those unarmored types...it is a matter of historical fact that some ships "could" be sunk...just don't expect it every time you roll in because I don't think it happened too often (destroyers that is), but plenty of vessels fell to Beau's, Skeeters, A-20's and B-25 guns (not bombs and rockets)

pcisbest
07-10-2004, 08:45 PM
Can someone post some vids of ships "blowing up" from machine gun fire, as all I have seen so far from the gun footage is the bullets kicking up water all around the ship and flashing on the steel surface as their incedinary mixture smacks into the side, kinda of what happens in IL-2 when you think about it.

McCallaway
07-12-2004, 06:03 AM
Late war Japanese Battleship, when iron and fuel were hard to find. She was cut in half with one .50 bullet. CQFD.

http://mail.bris.ac.uk/~lijeh/seaorig.jpg

Atomic_Marten
07-12-2004, 02:18 PM
This hilarious thread still goin' on?
Then;

**Bump**

For others to join in-here and take a look at some genious ideas (about sinking warship with machine gun(s)).

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-12-2004, 02:57 PM
Bull_dog.. what are your sources...? 1945 sunday morning propanganda http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ?

------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-12-2004, 03:01 PM
btw, im kidding you. I really believe .50 can start a secondary explosion on a Destroyers, but than its this mistake of the ship crew that sink them, and not the .50 ... .30 would have done the same it seems.

And dont take occasional quotes as a generality.

We want generality in PF, and not rare and exeptional things-

------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

Atomic_Marten
07-12-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vampiric666:
ok, u can have .50s cutting destroyers in 2.... but i expect having japanese 30mm cannons sinking carriers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bottom line http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

bump

heywooood
07-12-2004, 06:40 PM
I once sunk a canoe with a peashooter... yep - at band camp.

Man - I HATED that counselor.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Atomic_Marten
07-12-2004, 07:16 PM
This is gettin' better and better...

***bump***

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2004, 08:17 AM
Oh no....

and I thought the 0.50 whine threads were bad. If Oleg has 0.50s cutting destroyers in half I`ll puke!

And I`m going back to GD & ORR quick before I spy more juvenile stupid claims!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

Warlordimi
07-13-2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by McCallaway:
Late war Japanese Battleship, when iron and fuel were hard to find. She was cut in half with one .50 bullet. CQFD.

http://mail.bris.ac.uk/~lijeh/seaorig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Great!!!! Didn't laughed like that since a time, now...

Atomic_Marten
07-13-2004, 02:37 PM
*bmp*?

LeadSpitter_
07-13-2004, 06:44 PM
yes cutting ships in half, but its not the .50 but the explosion doing the damage, many of the japanese and german cruisers had wooden decks which where not armored like the us deck and carriers decks which were wood but had armor underneath the wood.

Im not sure what they are hitting under the deck fuel supply ammo stores, pressurized steam engine on the japanese ships But literally tears the ship in half from the explosion.

I also seen footage of 1 500lb bomb sinking a japanese carrier. In fb one 500lb bomb cant even sink a sub or frigate.

look at the p38s rockets they cant even destroy factories, im sure all of you seen footage of them destroying large factories with just rockets. ont he 38 and hvars on the corsie and hellcat

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-14-2004, 06:37 AM
What u say LeadSpitter_ makes sense unlike some other posts.

Of course that .50 can sink ship in real life with let's say Mustang with "lucky shot". But that is an exception and not rule, and guys imagine if we have chance to do that in IL-2 or PF. But then again in theory it is possible to do that with all kind of different ammo (in real life).

This whole issue is pretty much down to this ".50 can penetrate and destroy (sink) enemy ship if the burst is concentrated in one spot of hull or whatever" or similar.

Hilarious.


**fump*

theRealAntEater
07-14-2004, 10:05 AM
Leadspitter:
Wooden decks are to keep sailors busy cleaning them, they're just neat, nothing more. In every navy, there was steel below the wooden deck. German and japanese ships were not really different from US ships in the respect. Where did you get that nonsense? The only navies that really build lightweight cruisers and destroyers were the french and italian (french cruisers were unarmored except for splinter protection), and even those did not have all wooden decks.


If you look at www.combinedfleet.com (http://www.combinedfleet.com) you have the detailed "biographies" of all japanese destroyers.
None of them was sunk by Gunfire. Actually only those at Bismarck Sea and 1 or 2 later in New Guinea were sunk by the USAAF.
The Mustang pilot most likely took a small subchaser or a patrol boat for a destroyer. USAAF pilots were not exactly good in ship recognition and even USN pilots sometimes made mistakes. And incidentially, pilots always tend to enlarge the ships they see: a cruiser becomes a battleship, a destroyer a cruiser and so on. The cruiser Mikuma sunk at Midway was first thought to be a battleship until the wreck was photographed.
Most were sunk by Submarines or USN or USMC planes, with bombs.
Regarding carriers, this page tells us:
- Shoho (light carrier sunk at Coral Sea by USN carrier planes) - seven torpedoes and 13 bombs of 500 and 1000 lb, the majority being the latter.
The Midway carriers:
- Akagi - 2 1000 lb bombs setting off a chain reaction of parked and fuelled aircraft; burned out but still afloat, sunk by 3 torpedo hits of japanese destroyers
- Kaga - at least 4 1000 lb bombs setting off the same chain reaction as Akagi and Soryu, later wreck hit by 1 US submarine torpedo, sunk after burning a day and a night
- Soryu - 3 direct hits, 2 near misses by 1000 lb bombs which touch off parked aircraft, sunk after a few hours
- Hiryu - 4 direct bomb hits by 1000 lb bombs, 1 torpedo by japanese destroyer to finish her off, but sinks only after half a night

Ryujo (light carrier sunk at Guadalcanal) - four 1000 lb bomb hits, "many" near misses and 1 torpedo hit.

1944-45 losses
- Hiyo (converted liner) - 2 arial torpedo hits
- Shokaku - 3 submarine torpedoes
- Taiho - 1 submarine torpedo causing gasoline fumes which were lit by uncautious damage control teams
- Zuikaku - Seven air torpedoes and nine bombs (caliber unknown, between 500 and 1000 lb)
- Zuiho (light carrier) 1 air torpedo and 1 500 lb hit, around 100 near misses (!) which do the most damage. Still sinks on even keel with very light casualties
- Chitose (converted seaplane tender, light carrier) - 3 torpedo hits
- Chiyoda (sistership) - 4 direct bomb hits, later sunk by countless 8, 6 and 5 inch hits by US Cruiser force, no survivors
- Unryu - three submarine torpedoes
- Shinano - four submarine torpedoes
- Amagi (in port with skeleton crew) - six bomb hits and one "tiny tim" hit
Escort carriers were all sunk by Submarines, Junyo, Hosho and Ryuho survive the war.

Actually the only carrier positively sunk by a single bomb was American:
The USS Princeton on 24th October 1944 was attacked by a single D4Y2 Judy dive bomber and sunk after its bomb caused a Midway-like disaster.
While it is claimed that this bomb was 500 kg, the normal bomb load of a Judy was 250 kg, which is just about a little more than 500 pound... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Blutarski2004
07-14-2004, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by theRealAntEater:
Leadspitter:
Wooden decks are to keep sailors busy cleaning them, they're just neat, nothing more. In every navy, there was steel below the wooden deck. German and japanese ships were not really different from US ships in the respect. Where did you get that nonsense? The only navies that really build lightweight cruisers and destroyers were the french and italian (french cruisers were unarmored except for splinter protection), and even those did not have all wooden decks.


If you look at http://www.combinedfleet.com you have the detailed "biographies" of all japanese destroyers.
None of them was sunk by Gunfire. Actually only those at Bismarck Sea and 1 or 2 later in New Guinea were sunk by the USAAF.
The Mustang pilot most likely took a small subchaser or a patrol boat for a destroyer. USAAF pilots were not exactly good in ship recognition and even USN pilots sometimes made mistakes. And incidentially, pilots always tend to enlarge the ships they see: a cruiser becomes a battleship, a destroyer a cruiser and so on. The cruiser Mikuma sunk at Midway was first thought to be a battleship until the wreck was photographed.
Most were sunk by Submarines or USN or USMC planes, with bombs.
Regarding carriers, this page tells us:
- Shoho (light carrier sunk at Coral Sea by USN carrier planes) - seven torpedoes and 13 bombs of 500 and 1000 lb, the majority being the latter.
The Midway carriers:
- Akagi - 2 1000 lb bombs setting off a chain reaction of parked and fuelled aircraft; burned out but still afloat, sunk by 3 torpedo hits of japanese destroyers
- Kaga - at least 4 1000 lb bombs setting off the same chain reaction as Akagi and Soryu, later wreck hit by 1 US submarine torpedo, sunk after burning a day and a night
- Soryu - 3 direct hits, 2 near misses by 1000 lb bombs which touch off parked aircraft, sunk after a few hours
- Hiryu - 4 direct bomb hits by 1000 lb bombs, 1 torpedo by japanese destroyer to finish her off, but sinks only after half a night

Ryujo (light carrier sunk at Guadalcanal) - four 1000 lb bomb hits, "many" near misses and 1 torpedo hit.

1944-45 losses
- Hiyo (converted liner) - 2 arial torpedo hits
- Shokaku - 3 submarine torpedoes
- Taiho - 1 submarine torpedo causing gasoline fumes which were lit by uncautious damage control teams
- Zuikaku - Seven air torpedoes and nine bombs (caliber unknown, between 500 and 1000 lb)
- Zuiho (light carrier) 1 air torpedo and 1 500 lb hit, around 100 near misses (!) which do the most damage. Still sinks on even keel with very light casualties
- Chitose (converted seaplane tender, light carrier) - 3 torpedo hits
- Chiyoda (sistership) - 4 direct bomb hits, later sunk by countless 8, 6 and 5 inch hits by US Cruiser force, no survivors
- Unryu - three submarine torpedoes
- Shinano - four submarine torpedoes
- Amagi (in port with skeleton crew) - six bomb hits and one "tiny tim" hit
Escort carriers were all sunk by Submarines, Junyo, Hosho and Ryuho survive the war.

Actually the only carrier positively sunk by a single bomb was American:
The USS Princeton on 24th October 1944 was attacked by a single D4Y2 Judy dive bomber and sunk after its bomb caused a Midway-like disaster.
While it is claimed that this bomb was 500 kg, the normal bomb load of a Judy was 250 kg, which is just about a little more than 500 pound... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Not sure what point you are trying to make here. WW2 CV = 20,000t to 30,000t displacement. Generally speaking, WW2 DD's = &lt;2000t displacement, although the late-war Sumner/Gearing Classes were 2250t and certain classes of large Japanese DD'2 exceeded 2000t.

DD's (and smaller escorts often mistaken for DD's) were customarily built of mild steel with skin plating perhaps 6-8mm thick. As such the interior compartments of such ships were vulnerable to 50cal AP at ranges up to 1000 yds or more. They carried no armor. Not even the main battery gun-houses were armored. They were actually intended as weathershields, which might protect personnel from flying fragments. The expected damage of 50cal fire was to personnel and internal and external ship systems (pierced pipes, severed cables, destroyed instruments and controls, etc). Those huge numbers of 50cals so artfully installed by Pappy Gunn in the noses of 5th AF B-25s were intended for suppression of shipboard AA, not for "sawing ships in half"; the B-25s carried bombs and other ordnance to actually sink the target ships.

It is fair to say that no battery of 50cal mg's is ever going to cut a DD sized ship in half. That having been said, it was entirely possible for a small ship to be crippled or "mission-killed" by 50cal fire. Remember that any such strafing attack would involve not a single fighter but probably a flight of four - up to 24 x 50cals. When all the planets were correctly aligned a large secondary explosion might conceivably sink a ship as large as a DD - but this would have been a highly noteworthy event indeed

BLUTARSKI

theRealAntEater
07-14-2004, 11:33 AM
Sure, but none had wooden decks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I was speaking about the "1 500 lb bomb sinks a carrier" thing. I know the general layout of a vessel of that era.

It seems to me most japanese ships in 1944 were simply overwhelmed by swarms of US aircraft.

Sharpe26
07-14-2004, 12:36 PM
either that, or they had their ordinance still on deck and planes fueled up, as happened at Midway.

horseback
07-14-2004, 04:52 PM
I spent a little time in the USN, with three years on a Garcia class Frigate, which was a little smaller than a WWII DD, and made of essentially the same materials, except that like most warships built after the 50s, the superstructure was aluminum (better CG, dontcha know).

When we went into the yards, they cut a big section out of the hull to remove the boilers' supercharger, and I obtained a few pieces of the hull plating for souvenirs. None were more than 5-6mm thick (I'm holding one in my hand now), and as stated earlier, they are mild steel. I remember my USAF veteran father's shock when I brought one out for him.

I have no problem imagining .50 or even .30 caliber AP rounds penetrating the hulls of destroyers or escorts and puncturing the boilers. An attack by a flight of Jugs or standard USN fighters could easily turn one into a drifting hulk, because without your boilers, you'd be out of power, or at least grossly underpowered (there was often a diesel engine for backup on the modern warships, altho as an Electronics tech, I couldn't tell you if it was used for more than electrical power, or if it was less susceptable to damage than the boilers).

Being dead in the water is an uncomfortable experience under calm conditions; the ship rocks and rolls a lot more than when it is underway, and if the decks are torn up and slippery with blood, fuel oils and various other fluids, with hot steam shooting out of the damaged pipes and no electricity for lights below decks, it would come pretty close to my definition of hell. If the weather were the least bit inclement, things could get nasty in a hurry.

Would .50 cals cut a DD in half? No. But enough of them applied liberally, even without setting off explosions, could render it into a drifting hulk, for all intents and purposes hors de combat, and leave it to eventually sink if it can't get it's engines going again or get outside help.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Baco-ECV56
07-14-2004, 05:26 PM
Gee you outsmart every warship designer from 1900s to 1945!

I don´t see the need for naval guns gents, just refit every DD with .50 cals to sink other DDs...

Type 42 DDs (made entirelly out of aluminum, No armor whatsoever) got hit by hundreds of 30mm rounds during the South atlantic conflict in 1982. Yeap DDs full of electronics, missiles, and fuel, and not one of them was put out of comission...

We are talking about aluminum frigates with lots of wireing (and sensitive electronics) and missiles and 30mm fire not .50, hit´m hard... Nothing ahappend...

weird isn´t it?

Afetr all .50 cal shred iron made DDs to pices...

nut´s just nut´s...

owlwatcher
07-14-2004, 05:36 PM
I think they stopped using aluminum on ships because aluminum tends to burn.
At one time it was used to save top side weight.
I pretty sure the Falklands proved this true.

huggy87
07-14-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
I spent a little time in the USN, with three years on a Garcia class Frigate
cheers

horseback

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You are old school horseback. What years were you in. Were you an officer or what was your rate?

horseback
07-14-2004, 07:49 PM
Huggy,

I was an ETR2 (Electronics Technician, Radar, E-5), when I got out in '81. Boot camp in San Diego, 'A' School at Great Lakes (always thought I should have gotten a 'Wintering Over' ribbon for that-do you know that people there actually chill their beer by putting it outside?), 'C' school at San Diego again, then I was homeported in Pearl from Bicentennial Day (4 July '76) to July '79 on the Davy Maru, aka the USS Davidson (FF-1045), working on the air and surface search radars, IFF, Navigational systems (TACAN, LORAN & OMEGA), switchboards and radar repeaters.

We only did one WESTPAC during that time, as well as the yard period mentioned. Most of the rest of that time was spent sailing around off the Hawaiian Islands, with a couple of short hops out towards Midway. The Davy had been pretty much run into the ground during the Vietnam period, so we spent an embarrassing amount of time dead in the water when the boilers would quit on us.

I spent the next couple of years herding Ensigns while assigned to the staff of Surface Warfare Officers' School Detachment at NAB Coronado. My next to last duty day at SWOS, John Lennon was murdered. My last duty day, Hinkley shot Ronald Reagan. I was afraid that if I re-upped, something really bad might happen on my next duty day, so I got out after six years.

And you?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Hans-Schultz
07-14-2004, 08:30 PM
taken from
http://www.kent.wednet.edu/KSD/SJ/TuskegeeAirmen/Tuskegee_Timeline.htm

"June 25, 1944--pilots of the 302nd Fighter Squadron sink a German destroyer with machine gun fire from their P-47's"

tanken from
http://www.crispusattucksmuseum.ips.k12.in.us/GALII/2250.aspx

"The 332nd Fighter Group also distinguished themselves in June 1944 when two of its pilots flying P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft discovered a German destroyer in the harbor at Trieste, Italy. One of the pilots, Lieutenant Gynne Pierson of the 302nd Fighter Squadron, using only the aircraft's 50-caliber machine guns, strafed the destroyer, causing it to explode and sink. This was another unprecedented aerial gunnery feat of World War II."

horseback
07-14-2004, 09:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baco-ECV56:
Gee you outsmart every warship designer from 1900s to 1945!

I don´t see the need for naval guns gents, just refit every DD with .50 cals to sink other DDs...

Type 42 DDs (made entirelly out of aluminum, No armor whatsoever) got hit by hundreds of 30mm rounds during the South atlantic conflict in 1982. Yeap DDs full of electronics, missiles, and fuel, and not one of them was put out of comission...

We are talking about aluminum frigates with lots of wireing (and sensitive electronics) and missiles and 30mm fire not .50, hit´m hard... Nothing ahappend...

weird isn´t it?

Afetr all .50 cal shred iron made DDs to pices...

nut´s just nut´s...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DDs were originally intended to be torpedo ships, and because of their speed and blue-water capability, were used to counter U-Boats in the Great War. This primary function continued during WWII, with secondary roles as short-range Naval gunfire support, AA platforms and radar pickets.

Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts (or Frigates) were never intended for ship to ship combat, but in the Pacific, USN DDs and DEs mounted torpedoes and 5" guns for their main batteries. I expect that the German and Japanese destroyers were similarly armed. They rarely got close enough to their enemies' surface units to use their AA weapons on them.

The RN destroyers in the Falklands were victims of hit and run attacks; their AA capabilities made it extremely hazardous for an airborne attacker to loiter and make more than one quick pass. As far as I know, the Argentines rarely flew in groups of more than three or four, and they were at the limits of their range when they encountered the British ships. They didn't stick around and make multiple passes, even assuming they had the ammo for it.

A major part of shipboard training for all hands is damage control and firefighting. My contacts with the RN led me to believe that they were at least as professional as we in the USN were, and after a quick attack while they were at General Quarters, they would be able to put out any minor fires and repair their systems fairly quickly. Since they knew that they were entering a combat zone, they probably scraped off the linoleum from their interior decks and made the ship as fire proof as possible en route to the South Atlantic combat zone.

A Japanese or German Destroyer caught alone at sea by a flight of four or more fighters could expect them to make repeated passes in the face of primarily hand aimed AA guns. They didn't have proximity fuses or radar guided automated fire control systems. They would have had a vastly harder time defending themselves, and if the fighters had sufficient fuel, they'd stay at it until they'd run out of ammo or the ship was dead in the water, even if they took losses. An attack like that could last for several minutes, during which the DD's ability to defend itself against them steadily deteriorated.

A DD at that time was about 400 ft long and about 35-45 ft wide, carrying a crew of 250 or so, of which maybe 75 actually were manning the guns. The rest were inside the skin of the ship, trying to perform damage control, operate the propulsion systems (mostly high-pressure steam boilers), treat the steady stream of wounded, keep the interior lighting and communications working, con the ship, and scream for help on the radio, all while HMG bullets are ricocheting around inside the passageways and compartments closest to the skin of the ship, say within ten or fifteen feet of the hull. That would leave at most a twenty feet long zone down the center of the ship safe from the bullets, but not necessarily from their effects. Crewmen would still be expected to stay at their assigned stations, subject to the penetrating rounds or not.

To add to these complications, the Captain and much of the command team would have been on the bridge in those days, and often were among the first casualties, because the bridge was a primary target and easily identified. This could put the ship adrift, literally and figuratively, until the senior surviving line officer could establish control (if he was able to at all).

So, as I stated, a determined air attack by four or more fighters equipped with six or eight .50 cal. MGs each could easily wreck a DD or DE, leaving it dead in the water with a third or more of its crew dead or wounded and badly demoralized, its propulsion gone or badly damaged, communications down or lost, and if it spent a period of extended time adrift, with a serious navigation problem for its depleted officer complement. The ship would often be just as lost to the enemy as if it had been sunk, and the loss of a couple of fighters would be a cheap price to pay.

Destroyers were built for speed, and considered expendable. They had no armor to speak of beyond their speed, and the designers of warships immediately prior to and during WWII had a limited appreciation for the damage an attack from the air could do. It took another forty years before adequate antiaircraft defenses for small ships could be devised, and most of them are still easy meat for an air attack, even with only guns.

Do a little research and thinking Baco, and come up with a reasoned response. I've seen the wrecks of Japanese ships in South Pacific waters with thicker hull metal than my ship boasted, and they often had a lot of half inch holes in them.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

huggy87
07-14-2004, 10:13 PM
Horseback,
I was just born when you entered the Navy. I entered myself in 97'. I have been in for 7 years now- all of it as an FA-18 pilot. I made two med/gulf deployments but am currently on shore duty as instructor. I can get out in 3 years.

I haven't quite decided whether to stay in or not. If I stayed, I would only have 10 more years before retirment and the nice pension. After shore duty, however, going back out to sea looks less and less attractive. I'm hoping the airlines will be hiring again strong when I can get out.

It sounds like you had some great duty stations (except for the great lakes). I don't know any ET's, but I have a lot of respect for the AT's I've worked with. There are so many different electronic systems on the hornet that they really have their work cut out.

Do you think modern DDs, FGs, and CGs are spoiled with their gas turbine engines? I sure don't envy boiler powered ships.

Cheers
Huggy

Atomic_Marten
07-15-2004, 01:04 AM
The more this funny thread goes on, the it become more interesting, 'cause people are posting something that makes sense.

However, this whole issue is so ridiculous, and guess why. I have no dobt over capabilities of 12,7mm rounds (0.50cal), in fact IMO that is the best weapon one fighter can be armed with (all around use vs. bomber, for dogfight, strafing, for pure and unspoiled fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif).

But it is really time to say that this whole issue makes no sense - there is no point. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

If we have a possibility to sink serious ships with 0,50 cal ammo in PF, then I will not buy this game ( http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gifI guess I will buy it just to find that I have been scr*w*d).

My analogy is simple: imagine then impact of large calibar ammo (cobra http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif), and we have flying carrier buster without need to carry bomb or torpedo. Total insanity and arcadish 100%.

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-15-2004, 04:09 AM
Huggy, I bet you know it already, but that is THE song for U. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(oh yeah, I know what you are going to tell me, those guys are USAF pussies, but well, they still rock ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

http://www.f16techs.com/I'm%20a%20Pilot.wma

(JUST COPY THE WHOE ur INTO YOUR BROWSER-)
------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

SeaFireLIV
07-15-2004, 06:03 AM
Wow! this farce is still going?!

If you guys have figured only one thing out by now it`s this:

That if anyone talks rubbish long enough others might actually start to believe it.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

Atomic_Marten
07-15-2004, 06:45 AM
Hey SeafireLIV actually you're quite right. Herr Goebels was reffering to the same thing... He said (however I cannot tell his actual words but you'll get the big picture): "if u repeat lie long enough it becomes the truth". Of course in German.
Sad but true. Now I must get back in cockpit of my P-39... now where did I put it this time?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-15-2004, 07:47 AM
Actually, Atomic, that might be where I got the quote from. It seems you are one of the few trying to balance things out with some semblance of sanity.

Indeed, if these guns can do this, then why have bombs? Why have torpedoes? Just fly out with a Squadron of 0.50 carrying aircraft and shoot all those destroyers and carriers instead!!


And if they`re saying well there`s a mite of a chance that they might hit some explosive munitions or the boiler or whatever, well then ANYTHING could! Not just .50 cals! And it would be a rare event too!


It`s just such a silly thread: HEY! Let`s go all the way!

You could even have a seagull do a poop on a sailor`s head, he bumps into another sailor pulling on board some munitions, that happen to be a bit delicate- and BOOM!

Destroyer sunk by seagull! Let`s fly a Squadron of Seagulls out instead to poop on Destroyers - it`s possible! It could work! Oleg!!

Why am I even entertaining this subject? Perhaps because it is so amusing!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

horseback
07-15-2004, 08:56 AM
Let's get something straight here. Modern surface warships come in only two flavors: Carriers and Destroyers (I don't care if you call them Cruisers, they're based on the same hull as the the Spruance class, and that makes 'em destoyers). The electronics and missiles you can pack on a modern warship pretty much makes armor irrelevent, and the extra weight would detract from the agility that might alleviate, if not avoid damage from incoming ordnance. A Frigate is slightly smaller and less heavily armed than a Destroyer, and is usually equipped with one screw (propeller, you landlubbers) and two powerplants as opposed to the two screws and four powerplants of a Destroyer.

Note to Huggy-gas turbines are much more capable and less vulnerable than high pressure steam, and have the added benefit of being cooler and cleaner to work on. My radar room was one of the few spaces on the ship with any air conditioning, and I had a standing 'open door' policy for snipes-I'd worked at an aluminum extrusion plant in Phoenix before enlisting, so I have a personal appreciation of heat exhaustion. Being spoiled does not enter into it. It's safer and better to have gas turbines.

Modern Cruisers/Destroyers are several orders of magnitude smaller than a carrier, which is able to invest in a certain amout of armor in addition to the usual defensive systems. Its sheer size and weight provide a certain amount of protection from splinters or blast at or near the skin of the ship in any case.

In WWII, there were several classes of surface warship larger than a Destroyer, mostly much more heavily armored above and below the waterline; three or four classes of Cruiser, and Battleships, which varied widely by class. None of these would be much more than irritated by a strafing by fighters, and vastly more dangerous to the attackers-by virtue of their size, they could mount a LOT of light AA.

But these didn't have the speed of the destroyer, and rarely operated independently, instead being part of a task group or as consorts to heavier ships, making a strafing attack much more problematic. Being shot at sucks; being shot at from more than one direction really sucks.

So the larger classes of warship got the attentions of the dive and torpedo squadrons, while the fighters could content themselves with protecting them from enemy fighters. Lone fighters or flight of fighters would report a spotted task force and stay out of their way.

In contrast, a single or even a pair of small boys (destroyers or escorts) out by themselves, as often occured for Kriegsmarine and IJN units, would make a perfectly suitable target for the attentions of a flight or more of fighters. Most of these types lacked radar in the Axis navies, so an attack could be made with a good chance of surprise and doing a lot of damage on the first pass.

Did it happen often? No. Oceans are big, and ships are small, and hide under clouds or squalls if they think enemy aircraft might be in the area. Even today, with satellites and electronic means of detecting enemy transmissions available to modern fighters, it's not easy to spot a single ship from eight or ten thousand feet on a reasonably clear day with the Mark One Eyeball.

Telling the difference between a relatively defenseless DD (that might kill you before you disable it) and a Cruiser (that would kill you, with no chance of you doing meaningful damage) from outside their weapons range was an important survival skill, and would make an interesting feature for the game.

Destroying a DD or DE with HMG fire would be a one in a thousand chance, but disabling or heavily damaging one in six or eight passes (by two or more fighters) is quite realistic. Damage models for the ships would have to be more detailed, and there would have to be a chance for ambush by AA-optimized subtypes (IJN and USN destroyers were sometimes modified specifically for this role in Carrier task groups), but it would be perfectly legitimate.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Tater-SW-
07-15-2004, 11:41 AM
Horseback is right. Also, note that the IJN employed MANY ships of DE class and below for duties they were not well suited for. These smaller craft were extremely vulnerable to strafing attacks.

Charaterizing this thread as "a F6F-3 should have a chance of sinking a CV with guns" is silly. MG fire can seriously damage or sink boats/ships, it's just a matter of WHAT ships/boats. That said, sinking ships is HARD. I'd much rather see a ship DM that allows strafers to leave with a ship burning, but not X hits then it sinks, but no visible damage before that. I think having some visible damage would be enough, I just hate the all or nothing DMs in FB/AEP (yeah, you can strafe guns til they burn, but it's bloody hard, and impossible on merchant ships that should be most vulnerable of all since they have no guns to burn).

DDs could be seriously hurt, dunno about sinking---seems pretty unlikely---short of massive secondary explosions (depth charges, torpedos?). DEs? Smaller patrol craft?

The game really needs a few classes of smaller ships used as merhcant/supply/patrol ships. They range from 15 to 1000 tons (jap DDs and Old DDs (ww1 era, called 'ODD' by USN) range from ~700 to over 2000 tons, for comparison) (BTW, i have pictures if the designers want them)

Barges (MLC). The japanese used a plethora of barges, US intel named 11 types, they are 5-75 tons displacement. Some had armored superstructures and were used as costal patrol craft. Many could be shredded by MG fire. 1 75mm hit from a B-25H would obliterate these.

Sea Trucks (kaijo torakku). Many of these were used everywhere. Smaller wooden hulled versions (SD) 100-300 tons and under, larger steel hulled versions (SC) 300-500 tons, amd the even larger, usually steel FTDs at 500-1000 tons. All of these are vulnerable to MG fire, particularly since they would usually be loaded with supplies (gas, ammo, etc that doesn't like API fire). I have reports that 3-4 75mm hits from a B-25H were enough to sink them outright (meaning they sank so fast the B-25s watched them sink before they left the area).

Luggers. t=These are motorized sailboats. The sails were not always even set. The name comes from the type of sail (a 'lugsail'). These range from 15-150 tons, usuaslly wooden. MG bait. I have a picture of a lugger almost literally cut in half. these were vulnerable to even small arms fire (.30 cal).

Junks. Near China Japan used many captured junks. 200-1000 tons.

The above craft/ships were used in numbers far exceeding the total number of larger naval craft in total, BTW. Thousands of them.

tater

[This message was edited by Tater-SW- on Thu July 15 2004 at 10:54 AM.]

theRealAntEater
07-15-2004, 01:06 PM
"DE" Type sounds a bit fuzzy
Actually the japanese did not come up with real decent escorts until it was too late.
Most of the war they had nothing between full size fleet destroyers and coastal craft. For ocean escort, fleet destroyers had to be used which were hardly equipped for ASW. On average, a japanese destroyer only had around 18 depth charges before 1944.
Only in 1944 the Matsu-Class DEs and the smaller Kaibokan ships started to come into service.
The Matsu class looked ugly, but was maybe the finest DE design of the war, very easy to build, faster and a lot better armed than US DEs. They also build another version as fast transports, which had a stern ramp to roll off landing craft or midget submarines. These would have been ideal for "Tokyo express" operations, but the times of these were over in 1944. Their only really suitable employment was during the "TA" operations to shuttle supplies from Luzon to Leyte in October 1944.
AA was always a weakness of Japanese destroyers:
Theoretically the 12,7 cm (5 inch) gun of the fleet destroyers was dual-purpose, but poor turning speeds and low elevation angles made this purely academic. In a surface battle this gun was equal to US guns, but it was not a good heavy AA gun. Even worse, the IJN for some reason never had a medium-caliber AA weapon. For the Allies and for Germans, weapons in the 37 to 40 Milimeter range were the most important AA assets (a 40mm hit could keep a kamikaze from crashing into you, a 20mm hit could not). The japanese only had their 25mm Gun, and improved AA by stuffing more and more of these guns on their ships. Almost all destroyers had their C turret removed to make space for more 25mm mounts in 1944. Even if some destroyers had around fifty of those 25mm Guns, a hit from them was not enough to stop a sturdy US carrier plane from its attack. A single Bofors mount would have been more effective.
The japanese did have an excellent heavy AA gun, though, a 10 cm semi-automatic weapon fitted to the large Akitsuki class destroyers; these were so large they were regularly identified as cruisers by the US and actually served the same role as light IJN cruisers.
These were the best IJN destroyers of all and at least in a night engagement, the 10 cm gun made up for its lack of range by a very high rate of fire.
The Matsu class was not fitted with the usual destroyer 12,7, but with the 5 inch high-angle AA gun used as secondary armament and heavy flak on IJN cruisers, carriers and battleships. Why the IJN did not start to fit all of its destroyers with this weapon is a mystery to me.
It seems to me that the IJN still put too much emphasis on surface warfare in 1943-44 when it should have been clear that the days of surface torpedo attacks were over.

Baco-ECV56
07-15-2004, 01:08 PM
Horseback, first of al I should apologice for losing my temper. And yes probably I should read a lot mor on WWII DD´s. But regarding the Thinking... I am, man and it seems sooo unlikelly that 4 fighters should be alble to easylly sink a Destroyer. I just can´t get it thruog my head.

I must respect your data since I have none of my own to contradict it (I haven´t researched it much).

But I just can´t see how a 2000 Ton, ship can be sinked by four tyny fighters. Yes I agrre that they can cripple her, they can cause masive dammage, but to sink it ...


Yes DD´s should lose their hability to respond fire and even be out of comission for a short period of time. But To have them sunk seems to me to be to much. If this theory was right, why didn´t the germans use fighters (a FW 190 or a Me 110 have a lot more firepower than 6 .50 cal) in the English channel to stop convoys? Or Why didn´t the Alies use fighters to disrupt sea trafic in the northen atlantic?¨

I belive that in the Pacific there were lots of small ships, and trasports that could surelly be sunk by MG fire. But a full blow Destroyer is very hard to belive. Sorry.

Besides, there have been presented perhaps 2 or 3 acounts of DDs sunk by Fighters...
That´s 3 ships in 5 years of fighting...
It still does not support the need of implementing this in PF.

Lets say for argument sake that there were 10 acounts, 20?, thats 20 medium ships in the hole war.

How often do you think it should happen in PF, if at all?

It would be like asking to make infantery an efective anti-air weapon becouse a couuple of hundred soldiers got luky and shot down aircrafts with their rifles...

This feature would be as cheesy as Oleg´s tanks blowing you out of teh sky with their main gun.

Tater-SW-
07-15-2004, 01:29 PM
Yeah, by DE class an below I was using USN terminology. Real DEs weren't all that common (frankly either were IJN DDs, they only built ~80 I think during 1937-45, the US built almost 800 DD/DE). They used some of the smaller craft, and ODDs as erzatz escorts (the japanese took to escorted convoys late, and even then they were pretty lame attempts, maybe 10 ships (compared to our 100+ ship convoys in the Atlantic).

Regardless of the ~80 DDs in service (not counting about 30 ODDs almost all below 800 tons), 50 or so were under 1400 tons, the balance were mostly ~1800 tons.

US DEs were from 1400-1600 tons. (all 500+ of them built during the war) DDs were originally 1500 tons or so (treaty limit) except for older, smaller types. The later US DDs were up over 2000 (Fletcher was 2100 or so).

tater

tater

[This message was edited by Tater-SW- on Thu July 15 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

Blutarski2004
07-15-2004, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by theRealAntEater:
"DE" Type sounds a bit fuzzy
Actually the japanese did not come up with real decent escorts until it was too late.
Most of the war they had nothing between full size fleet destroyers and coastal craft. For ocean escort, fleet destroyers had to be used which were hardly equipped for ASW. On average, a japanese destroyer only had around 18 depth charges before 1944.
Only in 1944 the Matsu-Class DEs and the smaller Kaibokan ships started to come into service.
The Matsu class looked ugly, but was maybe the finest DE design of the war, very easy to build, faster and a lot better armed than US DEs. They also build another version as fast transports, which had a stern ramp to roll off landing craft or midget submarines. These would have been ideal for "Tokyo express" operations, but the times of these were over in 1944. Their only really suitable employment was during the "TA" operations to shuttle supplies from Luzon to Leyte in October 1944.
AA was always a weakness of Japanese destroyers:
Theoretically the 12,7 cm (5 inch) gun of the fleet destroyers was dual-purpose, but poor turning speeds and low elevation angles made this purely academic. In a surface battle this gun was equal to US guns, but it was not a good heavy AA gun. Even worse, the IJN for some reason never had a medium-caliber AA weapon. For the Allies and for Germans, weapons in the 37 to 40 Milimeter range were the most important AA assets (a 40mm hit could keep a kamikaze from crashing into you, a 20mm hit could not). The japanese only had their 25mm Gun, and improved AA by stuffing more and more of these guns on their ships. Almost all destroyers had their C turret removed to make space for more 25mm mounts in 1944. Even if some destroyers had around fifty of those 25mm Guns, a hit from them was not enough to stop a sturdy US carrier plane from its attack. A single Bofors mount would have been more effective.
The japanese did have an excellent heavy AA gun, though, a 10 cm semi-automatic weapon fitted to the large Akitsuki class destroyers; these were so large they were regularly identified as cruisers by the US and actually served the same role as light IJN cruisers.
These were the best IJN destroyers of all and at least in a night engagement, the 10 cm gun made up for its lack of range by a very high rate of fire.
The Matsu class was not fitted with the usual destroyer 12,7, but with the 5 inch high-angle AA gun used as secondary armament and heavy flak on IJN cruisers, carriers and battleships. Why the IJN did not start to fit all of its destroyers with this weapon is a mystery to me.
It seems to me that the IJN still put too much emphasis on surface warfare in 1943-44 when it should have been clear that the days of surface torpedo attacks were over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Excellent summary!

BLUTARSKI

horseback
07-15-2004, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baco-ECV56:
Yes DD´s should lose their hability to respond fire and even be out of comission for a short period of time. But To have them sunk seems to me to be to much. If this theory was right, why didn´t the germans use fighters (a FW 190 or a Me 110 have a lot more firepower than 6 .50 cal) in the English channel to stop convoys? Or Why didn´t the Alies use fighters to disrupt sea trafic in the northen atlantic?¨

How often do you think it should happen in PF, if at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said it was about a one in a thousand occurance, and the only likely way for it to happen is for ordnance exposed topside to be set off, or in the case of the lone DD or DE type caught alone far out to sea by a minimum fo four fighters, disabled, and unable to get their engines back up before the weather gets nasty.

Or you might not sink it, but tear it up so bad that units sent to assist are unable to tow it to safety and are forced to scuttle it after rescuing the crew (there were a number of these occasions, though not all were the result of an air attack). Sinking isn't always a sudden, catastrophic event. Some ships could take days. There were a few examples during the Guadalcanal campaign, and it seems to me that Yorktown was scuttled at Midway.

As for LW aircraft attacking shipping with their guns, they did on occasion, but the RAF usually maintained patrols over the convoys, which limited those opportunities. A convoy in the Channel could whistle up a lot of fighter protection in a hurry (or in a Spitfire), and to be honest, it probably didn't occur to the jaegerkorps to bother with ships.

About the Allies on the North Atlantic, except for the few early war exceptions like the Bismark and (I think) the Gneisau (sp?), the only surface warships in the North Atlantic were Allied. The American practice in the Pacific started with fighters trying to distract AA gunners from the dive and torpedo bombers they were escorting in the absence of fighter opposition. As the war dragged on, and fewer Japanese fighters were found, merchantmen and lighter warships presented themselves as targets of opportunity.

Remember, the Japanese were way behind in the development and use of shipboard radar, and aircraft could approach without being seen or heard until the last couple of minutes at most. That's barely enough time for a well disciplined crew to get to their GQ stations and have some of their weapons ready to engage targets. In two minutes, fighters coming in at 250 mph have traveled 8 miles (13 km), and are probably already making their first passes.

In the Med, too, the 15th AF did not have a lot of aerial opposition, and as aggressive young men will, they looked for something to shoot at, and tearing up destoyers and gunboats seemed like a good way to keep the pressure up on the enemy. American fighters had a plentiful firing time for the period, and they weren't shy about using it all up.

The AAF made information about likely targets & successful attack methods well known to its pilots via short documentary or training films, as well as a bimonthly magazine formatted confidential intelligence report called Impact. There were a couple of articles about Navy techniques applicable for Air Force aircraft that I'm aware of, although I don't think any had a title like ".50 Cals Cut Enemy Destroyers in Half". That one would have been on the National Inquirer.

Generally, .50 cals could wreak havoc on a light warship, and a squadron attack might well take the ship off the board in the game. More likely, tho, is an attack with 5" HVARs followed by gun runs in the late-war scenario (by summer, 1944), and that would sink a destroyer with some regularity.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

alarmer
07-16-2004, 06:06 AM
Phew this was the first time I visit the PF forum and this is what I find! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would like to thank all parties in participating in this comedy act. Its been better laugh than some Jim Carreys movies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The 0.5cal dispersion issueb was somehow reasonable but please lets think about it for a while and just let it go.. Let it go nice and easy. I have nothing against US armament but sometimes you guys go too far. The chances of 0.5cal fire sinking a DD class ship is the same as seagull dropping **** into captains eye making him steer the ship on a reef.

ps. The couple first pages were the best, I loved the nuclear 0.5cal detonation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tater-SW-
07-16-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Several accounts from WWII vets state that with the concentrated arsenal of up to 9x .50's that came with Attack A/C like the A-20, A-26, B-25 and the Navy's lockheed Harpoon, They could cut smal ships in two!
Some even claim they could do that even to a Destroyer! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

alamer, the DD was never stated as a fact, rather as a contemporary claim that I think everyone agrees is very unlikely (sinking = unlikely, "cutting in two = impossible). I still see P-47 pilots on the history channel recounting how they bounced 50 cals off roads to underside of tanks and destroyed them---which couldn't have happened. Contemporary accounts need a grain of salt in terms of claims. The "DD" attacked might have been a med-large sea truck with AA guns on it, or even a PC, PG, or other smaller class of warship---many of which were old ww1 ships.

The first bit about cutting small ships in two isn't that far fetched, though. Luggers, junks, barges, and sea trucks were decimated by air attack. Barges apparently were pretty durable, and since they sailed mostly at night, the were "sunk" while already beached many times, repaired, and refloated if strafed. (we need the SB-24 that had surface search radar and was used as a nighttime barge hunter)

In the New Guinea-New Britain area, the japanese lost (their number, not claims) 600 barges by May 1943 (from The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2).

tater

Tater-SW-
07-16-2004, 08:12 AM
I'd also add that the pilots even claiming "cut in two" isn't clear. Currently what would "we lit them up" mean? Set afire, or just shot at a lot? The quotes (if we could see what they really were) might just mean they got tore up by .50 cal gunfire and later sank or burned, not that they got cut in two as if by a buzzsaw.

tater

Baco-ECV56
07-16-2004, 12:27 PM
OK Horsebak, I can go along those lines, but que problenm is that PF is a flight sim, not a naval sim. So the question is, How many ships clases we aill have and what will the damage model be like.

The perfect set up would be to have som small clases, liske PC, PG, barages and water trucks that could and should be torned upo by .50cals, or medium MG fire. Then the DDs should have a damage model that would consider critical hit areas that should criple the ship. Those areas should have a hi PK number thow. So it would be posible but not an every mission ocurrance to disable a DD or DC.

I don´t know if the dev team is up to such a task considering that ship DM even thow it should be critical to a Pacific sim, is not their priority.

At least not a DM that considers MG or Cn fire from the air.

I trully hope we get a prety sofisticat Dm for ships, since they´re the backbone of the ground forces in the theater and more than just targets of oportunity, often being the main target for a given mission.

What I don´t want to see is a DD being sunk in every mission with MG or Cn fire. Now rockets and bombs should do the trick http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

But I would really like to se a good DM for BB, Cruisers and CVs, witch where the main targets for arial attacks.

theRealAntEater
07-16-2004, 02:19 PM
Actually regarding the night time Thunderbolt strafing; i've read a similar thing from a japanese Pilot.
Sadamu Komachi scrambled in his lone Zero in mid 1943 when a few US destroyers shelled Kavieng at night. After missing with his bombs, he strafed them until he was out of ammo. He reported "I set serveral fires to the US ships and chased them out of the bay".
The fires were real: in their haste to fire back, the AA gunners had not removed the tarpaulins from their guns and had set them on fire. The destroyers retreated because their shelling mission was complete.
I suppose something similar happened there, only sides reversed.

Atomic_Marten
07-16-2004, 02:27 PM
DM? Anyone speaks of damage model? If Oleg don't make P-39 DM hard as a rock (invulnerable will do just fine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif) and FM like on Su-25 and if he do not add torpedo racks I will officialy protest. On this forum. Yes.

And THEN I'm goin' to bust h*ll outta those nasty carriers...No matter haw hard they are to sink. Yeah

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-18-2004, 04:02 PM
bump

Since I'm bored to death http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif and like this thread.

Obi_Kwiet
07-18-2004, 05:47 PM
Counln't a bullet go through the top part which is wood, and hit the powder or gassoline?

Penguin_PFF
07-18-2004, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The game really needs a few classes of smaller ships used as merhcant/supply/patrol ships. They range from 15 to 1000 tons (jap DDs and Old DDs (ww1 era, called 'ODD' by USN) range from ~700 to over 2000 tons, for comparison) (BTW, i have pictures if the designers want them)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tater:

That's quite a list of smaller vessels you threw together. Having a variety of targets is important...

Contact me via e-mail: daniels369 at hotmail dot com

I'd like to make use of any info you might have.

Tater-SW-
07-18-2004, 09:18 PM
rgr, it's kinda late, i'll get on it tomorrow.

the book I mentioned about the japanese merchant marine, is excellent, BTW. I bought it as a reference, and ended up reading it straight through the saturday I bought it, lol.

tater

Charlie901
07-19-2004, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Several accounts from WWII vets state that with the concentrated arsenal of up to 9x .50's that came with Attack A/C like the A-20, A-26, B-25 and the Navy's lockheed Harpoon, They could cut smal ships in two!
Some even claim they could do that even to a Destroyer!
I understand with the patch 2.02 The .50's will be more powerfull then recently.
And I wonder wouldn't it be hard to use the already existing model of ships breaking in two after torpedoed in midship if you used concentrated hits on that area!?
Even the lesser concentrated and converging fire of wing mounted .50's like the Mustang had or the Navy fighters, where able to blow up ships, even of Destroyer size!
I geuss and hope that anti shipping will be a importand part for the future PF sim.
Much can be imroved over the existing air to
sea model.
Thnx,
Kees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I don't see why not! It's been well documented that .50 Cal's have even destroyed Tiger Tanks after all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tater-SW-
07-19-2004, 10:27 PM
Here are a few pics:

A small cargo ship, probably a small sized sea truck after attack by MGs (set ablaze, not immediately sunk). &lt;EDIT&gt; I got email back from Mark Parillo (author of the book in question). He thinks this is an 80 ton SD sea truck.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/possible_sea_truck_sm.jpg

Various types of IJN/A barge (note that the IJA had to have a transport navy of its own since the IJN didn't always cooperate with them). Note the small ship lower right is probably a medium sized sea truck. I'm looking for good images of luggers---the one I have has it hit by planes and in splinters. A principle difference to a sea truck is a sail mast over the rear pilot house (front mast being for cargo loading).

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/barge_types_small.jpg

More later.

tater

[This message was edited by Tater-SW- on Fri July 23 2004 at 09:33 AM.]

Penguin_PFF
07-19-2004, 11:33 PM
Cool, I didn't even know somebody had written a book on such things... I'm poorly read when it comes to nautical subjects.

Got your e-mail BTW, roger on the scanning.

Tater-SW-
07-20-2004, 11:56 AM
Here's another:

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/ships.jpg

C and D look like sea trucks, and the USAAF photo interpretors think they are ~150 gross tons displacement. That would make it an SD (wooden hulled sea truck), though the rear masts make me wonder, I have other pictures that look similar and they are called luggers. I think the distinction is probably somewhat arbitrary. Note the ship labeled a lugger is partially hidden in spray from a bomb blast. All 4 vessels were sunk, BTW. The arrow is my addition, and points out the A-20 they mention. This is from IMPACT a USAAF magazine for allied aircrews (has how-to articles on tactics, BDA, photo interpretation quizes and so forth, really cool).

tater

Tater-SW-
07-20-2004, 12:05 PM
In the image above, also note that the trees are not palms, and come right to the edge of the sea. This is typical, many palms, particularly on larger islands like Guadalcanal are cocnut palms, and are planted crops. That means they should be in really even rows, I'll post pictures later.

tater

Tater-SW-
07-21-2004, 10:38 AM
This is from a series of pictures of what NOT to do when attacking shipping at low level.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/luggers.jpg
The two ships in this picture are luggers, and as was typically done during the day they were at anchor near an island, with camoflage applied (note: it would be VERY cool to have a static version of each japanese small cargo type with palm fronds all over it!). The smoking B-25 upper right is a few seconds behind the plane taking this picture. Too few seconds behind---a bomb from the photo plane can be seen in the splash behind the right ship skipping.



http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/luggers2.jpg
The dark explosion on the right is the right lugger in the 1st pic. The tall explosion, middle, is the left lugger in pic 1. The left most explosion/splash is the B-25---its wing was removed by the blast from the photo plane's bomb exploding in the right lugger. The two forground ships are actually barges, and I'm not sure if the craft closest to the B-25 impact is a barge or a small sea truck.

tater

Tater-SW-
07-21-2004, 10:56 AM
Also, in the 2d picture, they say arrow points at the bombs from the stricken B-25 skipping off the water. I think (based on another picture in the series) that the large shape left is the wing itself, and the right blob is either a bomb, or perhaps the landing gear.

Note that in the first picture that palm trees are planted in neat rows, while the jungle closest the cargo vessels is deciduous---that or it may be at least partially camoflage---looks like a little walkway on right next to the small beached boat.

I know the palms in AEP kill FR, I think with the right mix of stuff, and a large tile of palms in rows (like large forests now) FR issues could be dealt with.

tater

Tater-SW-
07-21-2004, 11:00 AM
LOL, keep forgetting stuff. The above two images were taken near Hansa Bay, New Guinea, 28 August, 1943.

Bearcat99
07-22-2004, 09:10 PM
As far as I know 50 cals never destroyed Panthers or destroyers... at least not with lead alone. They did however ignite gas cans, ammo magazines etc. on more than one occasion and thus destroy a couple of small ships and tanks but 50s alone with nothing else involved? Never happened. AFAIC though... if it cant run it is taken out. It doesnt have to be blown to bits just made non functional..

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IMMERSION BABY!!

Tater-SW-
07-23-2004, 10:24 AM
Never destroyed any small freighters?

Look, most were bombed out, no question, but barges, luggers and even some sea trucks were sunk by gunfire. Strike that, there were mission killed, or destroyed by gunfire.

Remember, the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu weren't sunk by bombs, they were set alight with uncontrollable fires by bombs which resulted in induced explosions (Akagi was scuttled). Hiryu was set ablaze, and also suffered induced explosions, but was shipping water fairly soon, bomb damage may have been durectly responsible (or near misses).

The point is that ships can sink form secondary explosions that are the result of uncontrolled fires caused by any number of mechanisms, including MG fire. I think MG fire taking out a DD or bigger is probably not worth putting into the DM, but I'd still like to see the ability to set parts afire on some larger ships (notably the cat-launched seaplanes---that should be a strafable bit that catches fire as the gun tubs do in AEP). I think barges, luggers and sea trucks need to have a DM that sets them afire after some abount of API hits em.

BTW, I have a picture of a seat truck like the one above in this thread burning furiously from MG fire. The thing looks like a viking funeral (only difference between it and the sea truck smoking, above is some palm frond camo).

tater

Atomic_Marten
07-24-2004, 04:44 PM
*jpg*

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-24-2004, 06:25 PM
What Flydutch is trying to say he/she wants to cut Japanese junks in two.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-25-2004, 03:26 AM
*bmp?* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tater-SW-
07-25-2004, 11:11 AM
Sea truck set ablaze by gunfire. I don't think that fire will be under control any time soon. &lt;BEG&gt;
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/burning_sea_truck.jpg

tater

PS-I'm actually not really in favor of ships being sunk anything like they are in AEP, I'd much rather leave a harbor with ships burning/smoking unless they take catostrophic bomb or torp damage and break in half and sink (the small cargo craft I've been talking about would sink almost instantly from a bomb, though, I'll scan the lugger literally blown to splinters by a bomb). A better (mostly wider) smoke column coming from ships would be far better than a sinking, IMHO, since that's what pilots actually saw, even the SBD drivers at Midway. Ships tend to take a looong time to sink, even small ships.

Atomic_Marten
07-27-2004, 01:45 PM
That would be cool Tater to have ships that would take realistic time to sink when they're strucked mortally.
BTW nice pics.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Tater-SW-
07-27-2004, 10:00 PM
Note that while this vessel was sunk by bombing, no bombs have yet hit it. The B-25 isn't even over the ship and it is already afire from .50 cal. Not "cut in half" but at serious risk du to fire (and about zero firefighting damage control on a ship of that type).

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/strafing_sm.jpg


tater

PS--I will have a scan in a bit of a USN ammo ship blow up from japanese strafing alone.

LeadSpitter_
07-28-2004, 06:19 AM
Im sure you seen the guncamera which is real footage in the movie tuskegee airment which wasnt really accurate being it was not a p51 but two p-47s.

The 332nd Fighter Group also distinguished themselves in June 1944 when two of its pilots flying P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft discovered a German destroyer in the harbor at Trieste, Italy. One of the pilots, Lieutenant Gynne Pierson of the 302nd Fighter Squadron, using only the aircraft's 50-caliber machine guns, strafed the destroyer, causing it to explode and sink. This was another unprecedented aerial gunnery feat of World War II.

Leeroy Roberts interview

http://www.wwiihistoryclass.com/transcripts/Roberts_L_021.pdf

There is also a couple other cases as well with guncamera and documented.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-28-2004, 07:38 AM
did you miss that info from Anteater in THIS topic ??

"The 322nd attacked the german TA 22, which was classified as a torpedo boat.
It was in fact an old WW1 destroyer (build 1915) captured from the italians. It had about half the size of a WW2 destroyer, and actually the designation "torpedo boat" was wrong, since it carried no torpedoes anymore! It was in fact some kind of medium sized antisubmarine escort.

While it did not sink, it was damaged so heavily that it was never repaired again."

Tater-SW-
07-28-2004, 07:54 AM
Many WW1 DDs were pressed into service in WW2 by all sides. The 4 stackers the US gave the UK were stripped of the torpedo tubes and used as escorts (many tubes were placed on Fairmiles, making erzatz PTs). The japanese also used WW1 type DDs (called "ODD" in the USN recognition manuals) for various functions.

Many WW2 DDs were ~2000 tons, while a lot of the earlier types were indeed about 1/2 that, some were even smaller. That doesn't make them not DDs though, and it would be understandable for the after action reports to call them DDs. In the IMPACT magazines I've been reading, they reposrt sinking IJN "frigates" or "destroyer escorts"---for lack of a better thing to call them, they applied what seemed closest to a US type. Many were probably actually PCs, I'm gonna hit the recognition manuals and see if I can ID some.

tater

LeadSpitter_
07-28-2004, 09:37 AM
Koln, Konigsberg, Karlsruhe (German WWII Light Cruiser). That was the class and its the same in the guncamera footage.

Believe who you want i dont care

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Tater-SW-
07-28-2004, 09:39 AM
USN ammunition ship strafed by japanese aircraft. (18 March, 1945)

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/USN_ammoship.jpg

I don't think the DM for ships will be fine enough to have something like this happen unless every bullet that hit did a simple check for a % chance of cblowing the ship up... like 1 in a few hundred thousand rounds might do it randomly, lol. Realistically for PF, we need normal results for a given pass. MG fire should start fires, even if they don;t sink the ship model, but are just there for looks.

As an aside, since we will have objects ON TOP of CVs, will we have objects able to be put on top of other ships? Ie: can we place ground objects---say, fuel trucks---on the decks of ships? Also, planes that are near ground object explosions on the ground take damage, do, or can ships take damage in PF from that situation? If you could place a ground object on a ship, and the explosion of that could do enough damage to sink it, then there would be a way in the FMB to make certain ships of your own choosing vulnerable as "ammo ships."


tater

[This message was edited by Tater-SW- on Wed July 28 2004 at 08:48 AM.]

Blackdog5555
07-29-2004, 02:58 AM
You never know. the top decks of WWII Destroyers werent armoured (mostly). look at the damage caused to the USS Forrestal by one AGM 45 shrike. dam near sunk an aircraft carrier. (of couse it was the secondary explosions ofthe WWII 500+lb bombs/ several hundred gallons of aviatin fuel. bla bla) I have watched gun footage of a B25 10 gun go after freighters. pretty awesome sight.

Carnage2681
07-29-2004, 02:33 PM
Hmmm, after reading this I hope the next German Main Battle Tank is armed with an cal 50. as Main Cannon.