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[]_---_[] KITT
09-05-2004, 02:09 AM
I never trimmed any plane in FB. But just did that (elevator trim) in a Lagg-3 (4 Series) and it seems to fly faster? Is it just me?

Also trimming is different for different airspeed. Is that right? What speed is best used for trimming?
How do you know the plane is trimmed properly?
Besides elevator trim why would anyone use rudder trim or aileron trim (For emergency, in case of damage?)

Thx b4

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[]_---_[] KITT
09-05-2004, 02:09 AM
I never trimmed any plane in FB. But just did that (elevator trim) in a Lagg-3 (4 Series) and it seems to fly faster? Is it just me?

Also trimming is different for different airspeed. Is that right? What speed is best used for trimming?
How do you know the plane is trimmed properly?
Besides elevator trim why would anyone use rudder trim or aileron trim (For emergency, in case of damage?)

Thx b4

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/roh_kudus/Sig_Tiger.gif
"And if we are able thus to attack an inferior force with a superior one, our opponents will be in dire straits" Sun Tzu

WUAF_Badsight
09-05-2004, 02:15 AM
its essential for bombsite bombing

.
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JG52_Helgstrand
09-05-2004, 02:37 AM
Personally I would say it's very important, a PITA but important.
Your a/c will fly faster and easier when trimmed correctly. And yes it's almost non stop adjustments if you change speed and altitude a lot.
Also on long flights if your a/c is trimmed for altitude and speed you don't have to fight the joystick.
Some a/c in game though don't seem to ever trim right (109).
You know the a/c is trimmed when you don't have to keep pressure on the stick to stay straight and level.

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[]_---_[] KITT
09-05-2004, 03:35 AM
I wish there's an auto trim option in FB. When on you can assign a button to have the a/c trimmed for flight level or in case of wing damage for a straight flying. I'm so lazy to manually trim the a/c

Also
Wouldn't it be cool if the pilot can open up the canopy to stick his head out to see the front plane while taxiing for takeoff like in Firepower (read it in Gamespot).

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"And if we are able thus to attack an inferior force with a superior one, our opponents will be in dire straits" Sun Tzu

Dnmy
09-05-2004, 04:39 AM
Trimming is highly overrated in FB. If you have a stick with low springforces there's absolutely no need for trim whatsoever.

Except maybe for rudder trim, to keep the plane from skidding all the time. In that sense it may help you fly more efficient.
As for elevator and aileron trim, no they won't help you fly faster, it's not like trim can propel your plane nor does trim help create some kind of laminar flow.

In short, you can do without using trim quite easily, because trim is only used to relieve the stickforces. So unless you have a stick with humongous springforces, where you're having to fight the stick all the time to just fly level and straight, you won't be needing trim at all.

Except for 1 situation: to get elevator authority back at very high speeds (>600kph).

--------------------------------

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Extreme_One
09-05-2004, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by []_---_[] KITT:
I wish there's an auto trim option in FB....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That feature does exist - in fact not only can you get auto-trim enabled but auto-navigate, auto-attack and auto-evade. It's called autopilot.

In fact you can switch on your PC, load FB, begin a mission hit "A" and just go off and do something else while yor PC flys for you.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

S! Simon
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[]_---_[] KITT
09-05-2004, 06:59 AM
-----------------------------------------------------
Extreme_One wrote:
That feature does exist - in fact not only can you get auto-trim enabled but auto-navigate, auto-attack and auto-evade. It's called autopilot.

In fact you can switch on your PC, load FB, begin a mission hit "A" and just go off and do something else while yor PC flys for you.Hammer

S! Simon
---------------------------------------------------

Hehehe i'm lazy enough to trim but i do still want to do my own dogfighting. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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"And if we are able thus to attack an inferior force with a superior one, our opponents will be in dire straits" Sun Tzu

F19_Ob
09-05-2004, 07:33 AM
Trim is very important for aiming.
If u leave the plane trimmed so that the nose rises then u constantly have to push it down, and in a firingposition (very bad) this normally result in that a greater portion of the rounds miss, especially at close ranges since the plane twitches up and down.
I generelly see to it that my plane has a slightly descending attitude in firingposition.
Its always much better to choose to lift the nose than being forced to push it down, even in the 109's wich have good bunting characteristics.

I constantly trim the plane up and down in combat.(no slider)It greatly improves the probability of hits.

My opinion ofcourse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Longjocks
09-05-2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
My opinion ofcourse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>An opinion I can relate to and agree with. Also, since getting a new stick with axis on the throttle to control trim, my IL-2 life is so much better. I'm so rejuvinated and excited by it that I still have an erection after two weeks with this feature.

http://users.tpg.com.au/mpdeans/misc/midgesign2.gif "Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."

Extreme_One
09-05-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Longjocks:
...I'm so rejuvinated and excited by it that I still have an erection after two weeks with this feature.
...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's probably a good job you're wearing long jocks then. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S! Simon
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Tully__
09-05-2004, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by []_---_[] KITT:
I never trimmed any plane in FB. But just did that (elevator trim) in a Lagg-3 (4 Series) and it seems to fly faster? Is it just me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not just you, they seem to fly faster when trimmed for me too. It may be an illusion though, I've not done exhaustive testing, and it shouldn't be the case if you have a very steady hand on the joystick.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also trimming is different for different airspeed. Is that right? What speed is best used for trimming?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you must retrim each time you change speed. The best speed for trimming is the speed you intend to fly at...
If you intend to trim only once for each mission, trim for your normal cruising speed, but I retrim elevators every time I change speed. Just after takeoff I trim for best climb speed, once I reach altitude I trim for cruise speed, when I make contact with the enemy I trim for average combat speed, back to cruise speed for the trip home and then trim for landing approach speed once I have the glide slope stabilised with flaps and wheels down.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How do you know the plane is trimmed properly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As someone mentioned above, if you can take your hands off the joystick without your plane instantly deviating dramatically from your intended flight path, it's correctly trimmed.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Besides elevator trim why would anyone use rudder trim or aileron trim (For emergency, in case of damage?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In many aircraft (most of the German aircraft for instance) there isn't any rudder or aileron trim, but where it's available you can use rudder trim to take out prop wash induced slip (yaw). You'll have to re-trim rudder every time you change power settings.
Aileron trim (where available) can help if you have a damaged wing reducing lift on one side, and on some aircraft can be used to take out that slight list to one side that some find so annoying.

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horseback
09-05-2004, 11:54 AM
As stated above, trim is very useful for squeezing the most out of your aircraft.

Most aircraft in FB have at least elevator trim, although that may not be true for the biplanes and the I-16, which I rarely if ever fly. As a general principle, though, the faster you go, the more your aircraft's nose will want to rise. After a while, you may find yourself using almost half your joystick's forward 'play' to fly level. This can make it really hard to aim.

Entering a little nose down trim(Ctl-Up Arrow) can remedy this problem. FB has a little delay built in, to counteract the unrealistic effects caused by trim-on-a-slider afficionados who used instant trim during a turn to obtain unrealistically tight turns and zoom climbs, so you'll want to add trim slowly, to see how much it affects your a/c's attitude.

Remember that as you lose speed, your nose will tend to drop, so now you'll need to apply nose up trim (Ctl-Down Arrow) to counter that. The aircraft is default trimmed for nominal cruise speed, so you can return to that setting by hitting Shift-Up or Down Arrows.

The Big Two (109, 190) German fighters mostly are limited to elevator trim-it's up to you to apply rudder to keep your 'ball' centered, but most other fighters have rudder trim, and it's also very handy for maintaining straight and level flight.

Rudder trim is affected by the torque of your engine-the more power (over or under that nominal cruise speed setting) you apply, the more rudder trim input you need, direction depending on which way the prop spins. Default rudder trim assignments are Ctl-Z for left rudder, and Ctl-X for right rudder trim. To return to the default/neutral trim, Shift-Z or X is selected.

Aileron trim is applied along the same general lines as rudder trim, but I've found it to be less critical on the types I fly most (given my limited skills, I'm forced to specialize).

Remember that too much (or too little) trim can lead to stalls (usually at the worst possible times). If you have the extra buttons, as on a HOTAS setup, I recommend assigning at least elevator trim Up and Down to a couple of buttons (if you have a four-way switch to spare on your rig, you might like to assign both rudder and elevator trims to it).

In any case, try practicing with trim settings in QMB or set up a few long practice flights in FMB. If you can spare an axis or two for trims, you may find that preferable to the button/key trim assignments. Learning to use trim properly is the key to getting that last drop of performance out of your ride.

cheers

horseback

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diomedes33
09-05-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
As for elevator and aileron trim, no they won't help you fly faster, it's not like trim can propel your plane nor does trim help create some kind of laminar flow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it can't propel the plane, but it does make it fly aerodynamically cleaner.

Less drag = more speed.

In a way it does help the laminar flow (I know this is a strech) If the plane is so out of trim that you are flying at a high AoA. You'll be constant on the verge of a stall. Trimming it would bring the airfoil back so that is has a good constant laminar flow over it.

If the fw190 didn't have elevator trim i would be porpoising the whole dive and probably never hit anything.

I can pull the nose up a quarter of a degree to get a better shot if I were to use the stick I would overcorrect.

I don't know what planes you fly but in any plane where speed is life (fw190, p51) trim is crucial in the dive and zoom climb. On the other hand a dogfighter (spitfire, la), I can see you only using it for cruising.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
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Dnmy
09-05-2004, 02:42 PM
No trim doesn't create less drag.

It's only there to relieve the pilot's stickforces. Nothing more.

I never use trim, don't have to but for 2 exceptions i already mentioned:

1. rudder trim
2. to get some elevator authority back to pull out of high speed dives.

WUAF_Badsight
09-05-2004, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Trimming is highly overrated in FB. If you have a stick with low springforces there's absolutely no need for trim whatsoever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you do any level bombing with the Bombsite ?

.
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diomedes33
09-05-2004, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
No trim doesn't create less drag.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't create less drage, it orients the plane so it is traveling through the longitudal axis (nose to tail).

The more it deviates from this path the more surface area is exposed which increases drag.

You can do this with the stick, but it is difficult to keep from overcorrecting especially at high speeds. When using the stick you are moving a large surface a very small amount. When using trim it is the opposite. So there is a larger degree of accuracy with the trim tabs.

There is no room for error when using the stick to trim out the aircraft.

Another reason why using the stick to trim is not a good idea. You are using control deflection to make your plane fly straight. So a trimed plane will have more maneuverability in that direction.

For example, bf109s would use a negative g dive to evade hurricanes. If you are using 1/2 deflection to fly straight and are bounced. You only have 1/2 your deflection to maneuver. This may give the hurricane enough time counter it, where if you had full deflection you probably would have escaped.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
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Dnmy
09-05-2004, 04:40 PM
Ofcourse you can trim the plane with the stick.
That's what i've been doing ever since the IL2 demo. I fly always in neutral trim (except for rudder trim ofcourse), so i have full deflection authority all the time for elevator and aileron.
And it's not difficult at all to do. You just gotta make your scalings 100% across the board. So that you can go very light on the stick. Make very small corrections where nescessary.

Maybe those who can not make small corrections tend to correct with elevator trim. But it's absolutely unnescessary. A lot of hassle for little gain. Trim won't make you fly faster. All it does is allow you to fly handsfree. A properly trimmed plane will hold its altitude and speed without the pilot having to touch the stick, that's all trim does, nothing more.

I myself have a FFB2 with adjustable centering force. Ofcourse i set my centering force to zero, so i feel absolutely no stickforce. Ever.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if stickforce is negligable, the need for trimming will be totally absent. As such i can trim the plane with stick alone.

Except for 2 things:

1. rudder trim, to keep the plane from skidding, which means flying a more efficient flightpath.

2. lots of elevator trim, to pull the plane out of a high speed dive. Notably those planes with bad elevator authority at high speeds (P38 or some of the 109's). Other than that it's completely unnescessary to use trim in FB. It's actually gimmick in FB

And let me get another myth out of the way. Trim does NOT allow for more elevator/aileron or rudder deflection. It merely reduces the stickforce in the direction that trim is applied. But it increases the stickforce in the opposite direction.

Dnmy
09-05-2004, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
For example, bf109s would use a negative g dive to evade hurricanes. If you are using 1/2 deflection to fly straight and are bounced. You only have 1/2 your deflection to maneuver. This may give the hurricane enough time counter it, where if you had full deflection you probably would have escaped.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but this is nonsense.

You don't have less deflection with or without trim. It's the same deflection either way. All trim does is relieve the stickforce in the direction that trim is applied. It doesn't create more deflection. It only seems that way, but it's just not like that in FB. Also not in real life.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Hawgdog
09-05-2004, 04:54 PM
Trim will help you turn quicker, go faster and a bunch of other good stuff.
I mapped it to another joystick slider and it works great. Should have done it years ago.

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essemm
09-05-2004, 05:04 PM
If I didn't use trim, I wouldn't hit squat while shooting.

IVJG51_Swine
09-05-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
As for elevator and aileron trim, no they won't help you fly faster, it's not like trim can propel your plane nor does trim help create some kind of laminar flow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it can't propel the plane, but it does make it fly aerodynamically cleaner.

Less drag = more speed.

In a way it does help the laminar flow (I know this is a strech) If the plane is so out of trim that you are flying at a high AoA. You'll be constant on the verge of a stall. Trimming it would bring the airfoil back so that is has a good constant laminar flow over it.

If the fw190 didn't have elevator trim i would be porpoising the whole dive and probably never hit anything.

I can pull the nose up a quarter of a degree to get a better shot if I were to use the stick I would overcorrect.

I don't know what planes you fly but in any plane where speed is life (fw190, p51) trim is crucial in the dive and zoom climb. On the other hand a dogfighter (spitfire, la), I can see you only using it for cruising.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, Specter, I was curious if you could explain exactly when you use the trim in the 190? I gather it is just prior to attacking after a dive on a target to make minor corrections. If you could expalin in detail when you use the trim I would appreciate it. Thanks a bunch
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WTE_Galway
09-05-2004, 05:16 PM
trim in a real aircraft actually moves the control surface (and the stick/yoke!!) to the position it would be in if you were holding the same attitude so I do not see it having any aerodynamic effect by itself .. what it will do is remove the subtle oscillations in attitude that result from trying to manually hold attitude and that may help in some way


I do agree that unless you have a stock standard linear joystick profile you need trim to shoot easily


the soft joystick profiles most people recommend soften the response around the point where the joystick is centred but with an untrimmed plane you are not flying with the joystick centred .. this makes for very erractic shooting


on another point .. I find it interesting that the delayed trim response where it takes a few seconds to have an effect that was introduced to limit the advantage of putting trim on a slider actually disadvantages keyboard users more than slider users .. the delay causes keyboard users to "overshoot" and oscillate around the correct trim value .. almost making it MORE essential to use a slider

WUAF_Badsight
09-05-2004, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Other than that it's completely unnescessary to use trim in FB. It's actually gimmick in FB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

again . . . . . do you fly Bombers in FB at all ?

do you use the Bombsite at all ?

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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Dnmy
09-05-2004, 06:10 PM
I don't fly bombers (too boring) but if i would fly bombers i wouldn't use trim either.
I can fly all the planes handsfree and trimfree. Also the planes that don't have any trim such as the I16 or I153.

Like i said, trim in FB is highly overrated. It's just a gimmick. You only have to remember 2 situations where you want to use trim:

1. rudder trim
2. elevator trim at high speeds to pull out of high speed dives.

It's really nothing more but a gimmick for those who like to fiddle with unnescessary stuff, or those who don't have a steady hand.
The rest of us can do just fine in FB, without all the trimgimmicks.

LuckyBoy1
09-05-2004, 06:43 PM
Don't use trim!! Use your controls instead because I need an easy kill now and then!

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WTE_Galway
09-05-2004, 07:24 PM
if you refuse to use trim then you want to make sure you use a dead flat joystick profile

diomedes33
09-05-2004, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:

Sorry but this is nonsense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to admit that I made a mistake on the trim-tab planform. I had a confused professor last year tell me that it worked as I explained below. After reading through a couple text books and a few articles on the net. I accept that you are right to a point Dmny. The trim-tab does not give any more deflective force, but is essential in any high speed gunnery pass. It also lets the plane fly cleaner because it orients it in such a way that it minimizes drag.

Just a side note:
I started on the runway with fw-190d9 trimmed neutral. Added full deflection with the stick and then trimmed full positive. The elevator moved a couple degrees after the trim. I have no idea how the internal workings of the cables are. But the end result seems to be the same.

The stabilizer-trim design however, does give you more deflective force. As far as I know the 109 only has this design. The example I gave earlier still stands, but only with a 109.

This article at simhq gives a good description of the different systems in use.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003c.html

-----------------------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>disregard
Its not nonsense. If the plane is out of trim and you have to compensate by moving the stick to fly neutral. It will be less effective in that direction.

Here's a quick paint diagram that I hope will help explain what I was trying to say

--removed the drawing just in case someone is skimming--

Because you are already compensating the difference in lift for level flight, there is less effective travel in the untrimmed airplane.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also the 109's, possibly others, elevator trim doesn't move the elevator, it moves the entire rear stabilizer, which in turn, changes the dynamics of the elevator entirely. Making it more effective.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

[This message was edited by diomedes33 on Sun September 05 2004 at 07:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by diomedes33 on Sun September 05 2004 at 08:06 PM.]

diomedes33
09-05-2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IVJG51_Swine:
Hello, Specter, I was curious if you could explain exactly when you use the trim in the 190? I gather it is just prior to attacking after a dive on a target to make minor corrections. If you could expalin in detail when you use the trim I would appreciate it. Thanks a bunch
~S~ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S~ Swine,

First of all I use trim to fly level, or close to it. I can never get it exact but within 5 m/s is good enough for me.

I have my elevator trim bound to one of the rotaries on my x45 throttle. After I've lined up above my target and am about to start my run. I trim the nose a little heavy and dive on it.

I make little corrections with the aileron and adjust the trim a little as needed. I pretty much try to make the bogie stay fixed on the screen. In the ideal situation I dive below the bogie and come up underneath it.

After I shoot I start a gradual climb and use the trim to hold it so I can extend as high as possible.

I use the trim to make tiny corrections that are next to impossible with the joystick and to keep the 190 from porpoising.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

LuckyBoy1
09-05-2004, 07:47 PM
DioDude! Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Quiet! Man, you keep this up and I'm gonna actually like, have to work for my kills!

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/tech_lbguide.htm#001%20Security%20Issues

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
I use the trim to make tiny corrections that are next to impossible with the joystick and to keep the 190 from porpoising.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but this is a totally unrealistic use of trim. You use trim as primary flight control, but that just isn't the way it's done in real life nor in FB.

Trim isn't used in real life to make tiny corrections. You use the primary flight controls to make tiny corrections and adjust trim after, to relieve the stickforce. Trim is only a secondary flight control. You put the stick where it needs to be to fly level and straight and then you trim away the forces.

But i'll give you that we can't feel the effect of those virtual stickforces. At least not until we reach those ultra high speeds. Actually the only force you feel when travelling at normal cruising speeds is the centering force of your X45. While that centering force may be strong, it doesn't simulate anything. There is no centering force on a real control column in a real plane. After you trim in a real plane, the stick remains where you put it, it doesn't return to center. So any centering force for PC joysticks is totally bogus. Think about that.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I think the centering force is only there to prevent the stick from falling over when it's not used, which is why i disabled the centering force on my stick, but that aside.

Trim is only used to relieve stickforce. It doesn't make you turn faster or fly faster, it doesn't create less drag. It's only there to help the pilot not getting too tired from having to push the stick down all the time, when he just wants to fly level and straight. And it's certainly not there to make tiny flight corrections.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
if you refuse to use trim then you want to make sure you use a dead flat joystick profile<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't refuse to use trim. I mentioned before that i use trim only in 2 situations:

1. i use rudder trim to keep from skidding too much
2. i use much elevator trim to pull out of high speed dives.

For the rest it isn't nescessary to use any trim whatsoever in FB. Mainly because i can't feel any virtual stickforce. And if the stickforce is absent, there's no need to trim, because trim is only used to relieve stickforce. You only "feel" the effect of the virtual stickforce at very high speeds where you feel your elevator becoming less responsive. That's the countering stickforce kicking in. And that's where you wanna use trim, to relieve that stickforce. Actually in FB i think with enough trim, you can cancel out that stickforce totally.

BTW my joystick scalings are all at 100% across the board.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Like i said, trim in FB is highly overrated. It's just a gimmick. You only have to remember 2 situations where you want to use trim:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok well . . . . your wrong

go fly a Bomber , use the Bombsite , & come back here & try & say trim isnt needed

.
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WTE_Galway
09-06-2004, 01:03 AM
I use a FFB stick so there actually is stick force

however trim in game, even on a FFB stick, does not MOVE the stick position the way it should IRL in moat aircraft.. your stick always stays centred in game whereas in most aircraft winding trim actually moves the position of the stick .. basically your stick or yoke when trimmed sits in the same position it would have previously have been held in to maintain the same attitude

if you actually use 100% stick settings trim will NOT effect your gunnery that much

.. but many people on these boards advise using a softened stick profile (like the "oleg" profile) and with those profiles you will want to trim so you are in the softer part of the profile as you shoot

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 01:12 AM
ok Dnmy says :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
It doesn't create more deflection. It only seems that way
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but then we have :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
I started on the runway with fw-190d9 trimmed neutral.
Added full deflection with the stick and then trimmed full positive. The elevator moved a couple degrees after the trim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know which one i believe

Trim in FB might not exactly replicate how Trim works in RL , but so what

its a usefull feature thats needed in certian situations

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Dnmy
09-06-2004, 01:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
I use a FFB stick so there actually is stick force

however trim in game, even on a FFB stick, does not MOVE the stick position the way it should IRL in moat aircraft.. your stick always stays centred in game whereas in most aircraft winding trim actually moves the position of the stick .. basically your stick or yoke when trimmed sits in the same position it would have previously have been held in to maintain the same attitude

if you actually use 100% stick settings trim will NOT effect your gunnery that much

.. but many people on these boards advise using a softened stick profile (like the "oleg" profile) and with those profiles you will want to trim so you are in the softer part of the profile as you shoot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand what you're saying, but FFB force isn't the same as stickforce you'd feel in a real plane.

Trim in FB does not move your physical stick, but it does move the virtual stick.
And i don't know about you, but my joystick certainly doesn't stay centered in the game. Let me put it this way, the centering force on a PC joystick serves absolutely no simulation purpose.

Using trim to make tiny corrections to aim better is totally unrealistic btw. I make tiny corrections with the stick alone. And because i like high responsiveness i use those 100% settings across the board (zero deadzone and no filtering).

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 01:24 AM
It isn't important how a 190's elevator looks when sitting on the runway.

It's important that you feel the effect of trim in flight.

It won't create bigger deflection, it only lessens the virtual stickforce in the direction in which you apply trim. But thing is that you can't feel that virtual stickforce. Not until you're travelling at very high speeds that is.

I don't really care if you believe it or not. I'm only telling you that when you use trim you fuss around with controls for nothing really. But if you like fussing around with a useless control, be my guest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Trim isn't nescessary in FB, except for 2 things:

1. rudder trim
2. at very high speeds.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 01:30 AM
ok so you dont think that Trim does anything in FB ?

i know what it does for me , are you trying to say that trim is ineffective ? that it does nothing ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
It isn't important how a 190's elevator looks when sitting on the runway.

It's important that you feel the effect of trim in flight.

It won't create bigger deflection, it only lessens the virtual stickforce in the direction in which you apply trim. But thing is that you can't feel that virtual stickforce. Not until you're travelling at very high speeds that is.

I don't really care if you believe it or not. I'm only telling you that when you use trim you fuss around with controls for nothing really. But if you like fussing around with a useless control, be my guest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

.
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diomedes33
09-06-2004, 01:35 AM
@Dnmy

The tiny corrections thing is more a downfall of the technology then what happens in real life. My joystick settings are set as sensitive as I can get them. And still I can't make the minor corrections that I need to shoot down the plane. That's why I fell back onto the elevator trim. These are very very small corrections. For instance, I'm shooting at a plane from 300 m and am hitting just behind the cockpit. I just nudge the trim to place the bullets inside the cockpit, moving the nose of the plane a 10th of a degree maybe less.

However, triming the plane for level flight and slightly negative in a dive doesn't seem like an unrealistic use. In real life the pilot would be exhausted if he didn't.

As for the trim as a primary use, I remember reading two instances on these boards where trim was used as a primary control. One was about the p47 in a dive. The pilots would use the trim to reduce the side slip because their legs would become fatigued trying to counter it with the rudder. Another is the 109 and its compressibility issues. Someone posted an article written by an ace on the eastern front about a year ago. He was diving at around 700 kph and the only way that he could pull out of the dive was to use trim. I know these are the two reason you said you'd use trim, but I was making the point that they were used for primary controls.

Joystick centering issue: the x45 does not have force feedback so all I feel is the centering force. There may be no centering force in a real plane, but there is back pressure. Removing the centering force can be argued to be just as unrealistic. Flying in a real plane you can feel where you are going. You know when the plane is flying close to level, you can feel the wings buffet if you are pushing the airframe to hard and the stick will go where the plane wants to fly (with no input pilot or trim)

Ahhh the drag thing again. As you probably know an airplane does not always fly in the same direction that the nose is pointed. Due to prop wash, engine torque, imperfections in the airframe, winds, bullet holes, leaking gas tanks ... etc. If the plane is not flying along its nose-tail line, there is more drag because of the increased surface area normal to the line of travel and the thrust vector is not pointing in the line of travel either. If you align the plane with the direction it is going you optimize the thrust and minimize the surface area(drag). Trim works really well for this.

Trim doesn't create some sort of mystical forcefield around the plane but it can bring everything into alignment so that the plane is flying as efficiently as possible.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 01:39 AM
No i'm saying that trim can be used in FB to lessen or even cancel out stickforce.

But because we're talking about a game, it's the virtual stickforce that i'm talking about.
And that stickforce you can't feel. What you feel is the centering force of your stick.

You only feel the effect of that virtual stickforce when you're travelling at high speeds only. You "feel" your elevator becoming less responsive. Your physical joystick may be pulled all the way to the back, but the virtual joystick won't move because of those virtual stickforces (that we can't feel).

Because we can't feel the virtual stickforces, there will be no need for trimming either, because trimming is only used to relieve stickforces. That's all it's there for.
It isn't there for making tiny flight corrections (not even in bombers).

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
However, triming the plane for level flight and slightly negative in a dive doesn't seem like an unrealistic use. In real life the pilot would be exhausted if he didn't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's exactly my point.

In the sim you won't get exhausted at all

Not unless you have a stick with humongous centering spring force ofcourse. But that force must not be mistaken for the virtual stickforce, because centering springforce doesn't simulate anything. It's absent in real life.

Trim doesn't make the plane fly as efficiently as possible, it helps the pilot relieve the stickforce. That's all it does.

diomedes33
09-06-2004, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
You only feel the effect of that virtual stickforce when you're travelling at high speeds only. You "feel" your elevator becoming less responsive. Your physical joystick may be pulled all the way to the back, but the virtual joystick won't move because of those virtual stickforces (that we can't feel).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we can't use trim to cancel out those virtual stick forces and then add another 40lbs of force to get the full deflection of the elevator?

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 01:51 AM
Ofcourse you can.

That's what i've been saying all along remember?

You feel the effect of those virtual stickforces at high speed only. And that's where you wanna dial in some elevator trim to lessen or even cancel out those stickforces so you can get full deflection again.

Only 2 situations where you want to use trim:

1. rudder trim to keep from skidding
2. elevator trim to pull out of high speed dives.

For the rest it isn't nescessary to use trim because unless you have a joystick with humoungous centering springs, you won't feel exhausted at all keeping the the stick in the proper position to fly where you want to fly.


edit:
if you happen to have a stick with humongous centering springforces, keep in mind that those centering springforces simulate absolutely nothing.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 02:09 AM
i take it that you do not know how to use the bombsite that is in FB

Trim is needed for level flight for level bombing as well ( even tho getting it "just so" level isnt possible )

you saying that trim isnt needed in Fb is one big fat red herring dude

.
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Dnmy
09-06-2004, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
I know these are the two reason you said you'd use trim, but I was making the point that they were used for primary controls.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's an article on SimHQ describing trim and how it's used as a secondary flight control only.

Here it is:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003a.html

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

RobertNighthawk
09-06-2004, 05:00 AM
Trim on a slider anyone?

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 05:44 AM
Certainly.

Ever since the unwary FB masses regarded the slider trim as a cheat and as a result the trim response was slowed down, it only meant that trimming correctly was made more and more awkward. Especially when you have to use the keyboard. So now, the trim feedback is so slowed that it's a PITA to get a properly trimmed plane.

That is ofcourse only if you choose to use trim. If you don't choose to use trim, you can fly trimmed properly with stick alone, except for the 2 exceptions i mentioned (rudder trim, high speed dives). There's another exception to bypass the slow sloth trim: with a CH stick.
That stick has 2 rotaries to trim elevator and/or aileron, with instant feedback.

So yes, if you're going to use trim, by all means don't use the keyboard but map it to an axis. But the best is to only use trim in the cases i mentioned (rudder trim, and only elevator trim to pull out of high speed dives).

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

LuckyBoy1
09-06-2004, 10:18 AM
If trim was not the way to go, commercial aitline pilots who get paid a fuel bonus for using less of the reddish, diesel like substance would not use it in favor of stick control.

As far as the stick centering thing goes, a real plane with good flight characteristics does tend to center the stick when you let go.

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/tech_lbguide.htm#001%20Security%20Issues

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

diomedes33
09-06-2004, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Ofcourse you can.

That's what i've been saying all along remember?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can use the trim to keep it in the dive just as well as pulling out of it. That's what I'm doing with the "tiny corrections" thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
There's an article on SimHQ describing trim and how it's used as a secondary flight control only.

Here it is:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003a.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With the exception of adjusting for the dive, that is exactly what I'm doing. Even in the dive, I'm using trim so I don't have to fight the stick and spoil the shot.

It takes time to climb up to 6000 m, its very easy to hold your climb rate using trim, rather then constantly pushing down, pulling up on the stick.

When I'm cruising looking for a target, most of the time I'm looking out the side of the plane. I don't want to constantly fight the plane to fly level. Plus navigating is a much easier task, especially when you don't have icons and map-path on. Bomber pilots could never line up their runs if they constantly had to counter roll, yaw and pitch.

When in a dive, as speed increases, lift increases, the plane slowly comes out of balance. Adding a few notches of trim is better solution for me than to constantly fight virtual stick pressure all the way to the target.

I fly at 800 kph a lot of the time, if I wasn't using trim, I would miss the mark 90% of the time. Even in slow flight around 400 kph, if the plane is out and you have to constantly fight a lift force, how many bullets will hit what you're aiming at versus if the plane was flying straight on its own?

On a lot of DF servers there is no-cockpit, externals on, on the deck turn fighting furballs right next to your airbase. On these servers trim would be useless. I don't fly these servers anymore because I do not enjoy this type of flying.

Most of the time I'm at 6000m looking down and have to fly minimum 10 minutes to find anything interesting. I don't want to be fighting the stick the whole time. I need to be looking around and maintaining a good sa.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

NonWonderDog
09-06-2004, 11:37 AM
Aren't you people arguing the same people that keep telling us over and over again that the deflection of our joystick has only a secondary relation to the deflection of our virtual stick?

I keep reading on these boards that 100 percent joystick deflection is not 100% virtual control stick deflection but rather the maximum force the pilot can apply to the stick. It easily follows that proper trim can result in more stick travel at high speeds.

In any case, the stabilizer trim on the Me-109 could definitely lead to less drag in proper trim. Normal trim tabs work by more or less adding a small amount of lift and drag to keep the control surface in place, so they should have no effect on speed.


...do the trim tabs still work if you lose elevator control in the sim? Do they act like they should? I'm curious, I usually have to jump out if I lose elevator, so I never tried to fly it on reversed elevator trim.

[This message was edited by NonWonderDog on Mon September 06 2004 at 10:47 AM.]

diomedes33
09-06-2004, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Aren't you people arguing the same people that keep telling us over and over again that the deflection of our joystick has only a secondary relation to the deflection of our virtual stick?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
In any case, the stabilizer trim on the Me-109 could definitely lead to less drag in proper trim. Normal trim tabs work by more or less adding a small amount of lift and drag to keep the control surface in place, so they should have no effect on speed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imagine a plane with a lot of side slip. The plane could be traveling at a 30 degree diagnal off the nose. So since the air is hiting the plane from the side. More drag is induced by the side of the fueselage and rear stabilizer. Since these surfaces in this direction are not very aerodynamic, it will create turbulant flows over the fueselage and induce more drag.

True, a trim-tabbed plane will induce a small amount of drag, to push the plane so that its flying in the same direction as the nose, but its far less then the drag induced by the sideslip.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
...do the trim tabs still work if you lose elevator control in the sim? Do they act like they should? I'm curious, I usually have to jump out if I lose elevator, so I never tried to fly it on reversed elevator trim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the 109 maybe, because the whole stabilizer moves. But on the trim-tab equiped planes, the trim tab is on the trailing edge of the elevator, so if the elevator is gone or damaged. The trim tab will be ineffective also.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 04:05 PM
I don't know what people you talk of but 100% deflection in the game is just that, 100% deflection, whether that be the virtual stick or the physical PC joystick. It's the same, meaning that you can't command more deflection than 100% whether you use trim or not. Don't let other people fool you into believing that you can command more than 100% with trim, because that's just not the case in FB nor in real life.

The thing is that pilot strength is modelled in the game, which means that at certain high speeds, the virtual pilot doesn't have enough strength to command the full 100% deflection, because of the aerodynamic forces acting on the controls. As an example, maybe only 25% deflection is possible at those high speeds. Or maybe even less.

That's the situation where elevator trim comes in handy. Because trim in FB is there to relieve the stickforces. Dial in trim and you can cancel out those stickforces, so that the virtual pilot can again command 100% deflection irregardless of those high speeds. I mention these high speeds because you only experience this effect in FB at high speeds.

At lesser speeds, the virtual pilot has plenty of strength to command 100% deflection. There's no need to relieve the stickforces, hence no need to trim.

Trim doesn't make you fly faster, turn faster, fly more aerodynamically clean, causing less drag or something. All that is simply nonsense.
The only trim of some importance in FB to fly efficiently (without skidding too much) is rudder trim.

BTW elevator trim doesn't work if you lose an elevator, nor does rudder trim or aileron trim work, when you lose your rudder or aileron respectively.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
I don't know what people you talk of but 100% deflection in the game is just that, 100% deflection, whether that be the virtual stick or the physical PC joystick. It's the same, meaning that you can't command more deflection than 100% whether you use trim or not. Don't let other people fool you into believing that you can command more than 100% with trim, because that's just not the case in FB nor in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you see this is the red herring part

while the elevator itself might not even move more (but it actually does on certian AC when you trim at full deflection) you still get increased elevator authority when you add trim to a fully deflected stick

so Dnmy isnt telling the full truth here

& hes ignoring 100% the need for trim in all controls for level bombing simply cause he finds bombers "boring"

red herrings aplenty dude

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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diomedes33
09-06-2004, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Trim doesn't make you fly faster, turn faster, fly more aerodynamically clean, causing less drag or something. All that is simply nonsense. The only trim of some importance in FB to fly efficiently (without skidding too much) is rudder trim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that statement were true, you would not be able to control an airplane the way it is now. Ailerons, Rudders and Elevators would have no effect.

An airplane is only meant to fly forward, all other directions are more inefficient than that. The more it deviates fromt this path the more drag and less aerodynamic the plane is.

Here's a graph from aerospaceweb.org plotting drag coefficient versus angle of attack.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/airfoils/high-alpha/cd-vs-alpha-180deg.jpg

Same concepts hold true on the yaw axis.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

[This message was edited by diomedes33 on Mon September 06 2004 at 03:30 PM.]

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
You can use the trim to keep it in the dive just as well as pulling out of it. That's what I'm doing with the "tiny corrections" thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't get me wrong, it's fine with me if you use trim to make tiny corrections. Everybody is free to "game the game" the way they please.

But the proper way to use trim is through trimming away the stickforces. And with stickforces i don't mean centering springforces. (Those centering forces serve absolutely no simulation purpose at all).

You put the stick where it needs to be and then you start trimming away the stickforces. Unless the aerodynamic forces are so heavy that you can't use the stick anymore then you dial in trim (if possible) to relieve the stickforce.

Thing is that you can't "feel" the stickforces not even if you are travelling at very high speeds. You only see the effect that it seems as if you can't command 100% deflection. You can't feel the forces in the game, hence the need to use trim is at the very least, questionable.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
while the elevator itself might not even move more (but it actually does on certian AC when you trim at full deflection) you still get increased elevator authority when you add trim to a fully deflected stick
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

prove it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

weasel75
09-06-2004, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
It only seems that way, but it's just not like that in FB. Also not in real life.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on the aircraft. Not all aircraft trim the main-surface. There are special trim-surfaces for that job.

WUAF_Badsight
09-06-2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
prove it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your the one doing all the claiming here

you say that trim gives zero extra elevator deflection

how about you prove that instead

explain why the K4 can only get close to its historical 24 second turn level at 6K with MAX trim as compared to 30 - 33 seconds you only can achieve with spwan default trim ?

huh ?

i think your either lying or assuming wrong or just spreading red herrings on purpose

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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diomedes33
09-06-2004, 05:14 PM
Here's an article from NASA explaining that drag is a function of area in the direction of travel.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/drageq.html

If the plane is flying a few degrees off from ideal, the surface area exposed to the air stream can easily be greater than the trimmed rudder used to counteract the adverse yaw of the engine torque, dive, aileron moment, whatever...

----------------------------------

For elevator trim not give more deflection, get a plane that has elevator trim (except 109 series). Switch to external view. Trim netural. Add maximum stick pressure. No aerodynamic forces are acting on it, so this should be the full deflection of the elevator. Now trim full positive. The elevator will move another 5 degrees or so. So it would appear graphically at least that you do get more deflection depending on the trim setting. I've tried this on fw190, p51 and p47, they all work the same way.

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 06:18 PM
No, you gotta prove it with a track. Then send it to Maddox to prove him wrong

Because the man himself has assured us here that there is no way to get more than 100% elevator deflection with trim.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i tested it myself to be sure. And for sure with max elevator trim you won't get more elevator deflection.

I don't really care if you believe it or not. I'm just telling it like it is http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And about that K4, you're discounting the stickforce that you can't feel in the plane. But that stickforce you lessen with trim so instead of the 95% deflection, you get 100% with max trim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Dnmy
09-06-2004, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
Here's an article from NASA explaining that drag is a function of area in the direction of travel.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/drageq.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nowhere in that article is anything mentioned about trim "supposedly" decreasing drag in real life, let alone in FB.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

diomedes33
09-06-2004, 06:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
Here's an article from NASA explaining that drag is a function of area in the direction of travel.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/drageq.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nowhere in that article is anything mentioned about trim "supposedly" decreasing drag in real life, let alone in FB.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no it doesn't, I used it to prove that drag was a function of surface area. When the plane is out of trim, there is more surface area which means there is more drag. The surface area of the control surfaces that the trim changes are much smaller then the total surface area exposed because the plane isn't flying in a straight line.


Again if this was not true, an airplane could not be controlled by ailerons, rudders and elevators.

For example next time you are driving, put your hand out the window. First with your palm pointed towards the road, then with your palm facing straight ahead. The statment that you are making says that there is no difference in the drag force between one or the other.


aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

[This message was edited by diomedes33 on Mon September 06 2004 at 05:55 PM.]

Snoop_Baron
09-06-2004, 07:35 PM
Guys, Dnmy is right. I don't know if he just likes playing around with you guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or simply can't seem to explain himself to you.

To understand why he is saying that trim is only needed for those two cases (rudder and high speed pull out) you need to understand his joystick setup.

He has a MSFFB2 joystick with NO CENTERING FORCE. For those of you without a MSFFB2 stick or haven't tried flying with out the FF centering force this is how it works. You can move your joystick to any position and keep it there without exercting any force. It will not automaticaly go back to the center like regular spring centered PC joysticks. In fact the stick will even stay where you put it with hands off. So because he doesn't experience any stick forces there is no need to use trim (except those two scenarios). So for example if he is flying a mustang at full throttle instead of trimming he will push his stick a little bit forward of the center position and leave it there, it will stay there even hands off. The mustang will now be "trimmed" for level flight. In real lie you would do something similar. You would push the stick forward untill the mustang was flying level. To do this you would have to exert a physical force then you would use trim to eliminate that physical force after which you could let go of the stick and it would stay in that forward position all by itself, just like it does on his joystick since he has no centering force. There is no need for Dnmy to use trim because he doesn't have an force to trim a way like a real pilot does. And guess what neither do any of us. The only force we feel is that provided by our joysticks return to center springs or FF. This force is not what you would feel in real life, but it does lead to similar problems. Because it makes it more difficult to keep the stick exactly in one place. So a lot of sim pilots use trim so they can keep their PC joystick centered and not have to fight the centering force. Also if you don't use 100% for your axis setup keeping your joystick in the center will help with aiming because other wise the amount of deflection needed will vary depening on your axis setup and can also make precise aiming difficult.

So if you are using a PC joystick with a constant centering force then you will find trim usefull outside of the two cases that Dnmy listed but this is because of the way your joystick works which is different from how a real control stick works in real life. Using a stick with no centering force doesn't require trim becuase it works more like a real life stick but without the centering force. I could do this with my MSFFB2 stick and have tried it but I'm just not used to it and I find that with so little resistance I move the stick to much.

Hope that helps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
Snoop
ps. And yes you wouldn't need to use trim for level bombing with his setup. Just move the stick until the bomber is flying straight and level and just leave it there. Even hands off. If you have a MSFFB stick try it. It's easier than using trim with a regular PC Joystick.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Snoop_Baron
09-06-2004, 07:36 PM
Dnmy thanks for making me post all that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Thanks for recommending a MSFBB2 stick a long time ago, I love it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

diomedes33
09-06-2004, 07:59 PM
AHHHH HAAA, thank you Snoop_Baron. That explains a lot. I knew the msffb was force feedback, but I did not know that it would hold the stick wherever you put it. On my stick, if you removed the centering force the stick would flop around uncontrollably and create more problems then solve. (Saetek cyborg, x45 and had an old thrustmaster a few years ago)

So with this setup, the plane is still in balance, except the trim is the placement of the stick.

Since pilot strength is modeled in game, can you really get the most performance out of the plane without trim?

Plus this doesn't apply to the 109 because the stabilizer-trim setup that it has.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
Guys, Dnmy is right. I don't know if he just likes playing around with you guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or simply can't seem to explain himself to you.

To understand why he is saying that trim is only needed for those two cases (rudder and high speed pull out) you need to understand his joystick setup.

He has a MSFFB2 joystick with NO CENTERING FORCE. For those of you without a MSFFB2 stick or haven't tried flying with out the FF centering force this is how it works. You can move your joystick to any position and keep it there without exercting any force. It will not automaticaly go back to the center like regular spring centered PC joysticks. In fact the stick will even stay where you put it with hands off. So because he doesn't experience any stick forces there is no need to use trim (except those two scenarios). So for example if he is flying a mustang at full throttle instead of trimming he will push his stick a little bit forward of the center position and leave it there, it will stay there even hands off. The mustang will now be "trimmed" for level flight. In real lie you would do something similar. You would push the stick forward untill the mustang was flying level. To do this you would have to exert a physical force then you would use trim to eliminate that physical force after which you could let go of the stick and it would stay in that forward position all by itself, just like it does on his joystick since he has no centering force. There is no need for Dnmy to use trim because he doesn't have an force to trim a way like a real pilot does. And guess what neither do any of us. The only force we feel is that provided by our joysticks return to center springs or FF. This force is not what you would feel in real life, but it does lead to similar problems. Because it makes it more difficult to keep the stick exactly in one place. So a lot of sim pilots use trim so they can keep their PC joystick centered and not have to fight the centering force. Also if you don't use 100% for your axis setup keeping your joystick in the center will help with aiming because other wise the amount of deflection needed will vary depening on your axis setup and can also make precise aiming difficult.

So if you are using a PC joystick with a constant centering force then you will find trim usefull outside of the two cases that Dnmy listed but this is because of the way your joystick works which is different from how a real control stick works in real life. Using a stick with no centering force doesn't require trim becuase it works more like a real life stick but without the centering force. I could do this with my MSFFB2 stick and have tried it but I'm just not used to it and I find that with so little resistance I move the stick to much.

Hope that helps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
Snoop
ps. And yes you wouldn't need to use trim for level bombing with his setup. Just move the stick until the bomber is flying straight and level and just leave it there. Even hands off. If you have a MSFFB stick try it. It's easier than using trim with a regular PC Joystick.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

aka 3./JG51_Specter
http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Snoop_Baron
09-06-2004, 10:16 PM
No problem m8, I'm glad I could clear up any confusion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I didn't realize this myself the first time I heard him talking about it either.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
AHHHH HAAA, thank you Snoop_Baron. That explains a lot. I knew the msffb was force feedback, but I did not know that it would hold the stick wherever you put it. On my stick, if you removed the centering force the stick would flop around uncontrollably and create more problems then solve. (Saetek cyborg, x45 and had an old thrustmaster a few years ago)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you can think of it that way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So with this setup, the plane is still in balance, except the trim is the placement of the stick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Since pilot strength is modeled in game, can you really get the most performance out of the plane without trim?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you can get the most performance, except when the stick forces are so great that the sim pilot cannot get full stick deflection without the use of trim. This will only happens at high speeds which is one of the two cases for which you need trim with this setup:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
2. i use much elevator trim to pull out of high speed dives.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only other need for trim with this setup is rudder trim.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
1. i use rudder trim to keep from skidding too much
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you use the MSFFB2 twist stick it has a spring that centers it so it is awkward and difficult to keep the stick constantly slightly twisted to the left or the right in order to keep from skidding to much. The same thing applies to regular foot pedals that have a return to neutral spring.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Plus this doesn't apply to the 109 because the stabilizer-trim setup that it has.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the details of how the 109 stabilizer trim setup works so I can't agree or disagree with that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If you elaborate, maybe we can all come to an agreement on how that should and/or does work.

I think the main thing to keep in mind when using trim in this or any other simulation is that our PC sticks do not work or feel like real airplane control sticks. If you don't keep this in mind it is easy to get confused or get the two worlds mixed up.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Snoop_Baron
09-06-2004, 10:25 PM
On a realted note, two things I would liked changed about trim is:

1. Get rid of the immediate return the center with no time delay bug that I've read about. (When you use the keyboard command, it does not happen using a slider).

2. Think of some way, maybe using a hud message to help us set trim accurately in the face of no tactile feedback that a real pilot has. For example:
a. Maybe a "trim set" message when the trim has stopped moving after a series of keyboard clicks.
b. Maybe some sort of "back preasure neutral" message.
Just throwing out some ideas anyways. I find with a little experience it is pretty easy to use trim if I use the knob on my X45 throttle.


s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Dnmy
09-07-2004, 12:37 AM
(@ Snoopbaron, thx http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

i won't agree that using trim causes less drag opposed to not using trim causing more drag. You trim a plane for a certain attitude and speed. But you'd be able to keep a plane at that same attitude and speed with the primary flight controls alone. It's just that the real pilot would get tired after a while doing just that. Which is why the real pilot uses trim. Other than that, for that same attitude and speed there would be no difference in drag whether you use trim or not (maybe using trim in real life causes even more drag because you dirty the planes surfaces).

Virtual pilots don't get tired of holding the stick in that position because we can't feel the effect of that stickforce (i.e. not until we reach high speeds). The only force we might feel is the centering force on the stick which is not the same as the aerodynamic force acting on the controls. Virtual pilots may get tired of fighting the centering force on the stick, but then again, that centering force serves absolutely no purpose at all. That's why trim in FB is highly overrated, virtual pilots don't trim away stickforces (you can't feel that stickforce), they use it to unrealistically trim away the centering force, or they unrealistically use trim to make tiny corrections. But that isn't what trim is for.

So to conclude there's only 2 situations where trim is remotely important in FB:
1. rudder trim (to keep the plane from skidding)
2. elevator trim to get elevator authority back at high speeds.

Trim in FB is a psychological thing. You tend to think it does wonders. But when all is said and done there's absolutely no difference whether you use trim or not (except for the 2 situations mentioned above)
--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Monson74
09-07-2004, 01:04 AM
I've never used trim for anything except for bomb runs - IMO it does not make any difference & I don't mind working on the stick constantly. You need to stay awake all the time in a hostile environment anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

Monson


"The Zerst├┬Ârers will form an offensive circle." - G├┬Âring

WTE_Galway
09-07-2004, 01:15 AM
well personally I also like to trim to build up a good habit for RT flying

one thing is for sure ... its certianly the case that the so called "fix" for trim on a slider has actually made it easier for slider users compared to keyboard users to trim rather than harder