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View Full Version : Unity: should they increase rifle range?



softgunforever
12-15-2014, 01:00 AM
i love that they have added rifles to assassins creed finally, but i do not think they have enough range though. the range seems to be around the same as a pistol. i would personally think they should increase the range by 1/3 of it's current range. a rifle for an assassin makes sense, especially in CO-OP where having a sniper on the roof could determine the outcome of a life/death situation for other players, but with the limited range, you'd pretty much have to be a close quarter sniper, which makes no sense. honestly, the range would not be a big issue for me, if they would just let us fire the rifles from roof edges, ropes, and the likes.

medavroog
12-15-2014, 02:50 AM
i love that they have added rifles to assassins creed finally, but i do not think they have enough range though. the range seems to be around the same as a pistol. i would personally think they should increase the range by 1/3 of it's current range. a rifle for an assassin makes sense, especially in CO-OP where having a sniper on the roof could determine the outcome of a life/death situation for other players, but with the limited range, you'd pretty much have to be a close quarter sniper, which makes no sense. honestly, the range would not be a big issue for me, if they would just let us fire the rifles from roof edges, ropes, and the likes.

First of all, "rifles" have been introduced since ACIII way back ... where were you all this time? Secondly, the "rifles" do actually shoot more range than the pistols ... excluding the "blunderbuss". Thirdly, it is not "realistic" to fire a rifle from edges and ropes ... in real-life situations, the recoils will make you fall. Also, we are not talking about "modern rifles" ...

similarly
12-15-2014, 03:53 AM
A couple of things.

1. During the French Revolution, you're only going to see two kinds of should weapons: Smoothbore muskets and rifled muskets. Rifled muskets took far longer to load because in order for the musket ball to take advantage of the grooves (the rifling) on the inside of the barrel, it had to fit the barrel snugly. That meant a lot more ramming time. Also, because musket balls tended to be handmade, it was very difficult to get the size right, and you ended up with a LOT of misfires, jams, etc. If your musket ball gets jammed in the barrel, good luck getting it back out of there. Yes, molten lead was poured into a mold, but often you ended up with ridges and imperfections where the halves of the mold closed, that would have to be filed off.

Rifled muskets had more range than a smoothbore, but at the time, not significantly more. Integral cartridges also had not been invented yet, so after you fire a shot, you have to brush the unburned powder out of the barrel (to prevent buildup and jamming) and then you need to do the primer, wadding, powder, ball, prime the striking surface (etc.) and aim.

2. Smoothbore muskets had a shorter reload time, but slightly less range because they didn't have the interior rifling grooves to spin the ball. An expert probably couldn't hit much of anything over 100 meters away, and the average soldier typically didn't have much of a range over 50 meters.

Likewise, infantrymen on a line usually had a firing reload time about about 20 seconds. An expert infantryman could reload in, at the fastest, about 10 seconds, and that's if the infantryman was REALLY good.

So if anything, the muskets in Unity probably have too much range and fire much too quickly. However, it makes the game go and it's more fun that waiting around, although making up 20 or so animations so you could watch your guy reload his musket would have a certain hilarity to it.

Johnny_R3b
12-15-2014, 05:02 AM
thirdly, it is not "realistic" to fire a rifle from edges and ropes ... In real-life situations, the recoils will make you fall. Also, we are not talking about "modern rifles" ...

since ****ing when has ac been realistic u ****. It would be more fun is all he is saying

medavroog
12-15-2014, 06:06 AM
since ****ing when has ac been realistic u ****. It would be more fun is all he is saying

Since AC the original first game ... it has struck me the dev team is trying to be realistic a possible. ... more fun? I am sure that​ isn't the "motives" for his argument.

Fatal-Feit
12-15-2014, 10:08 AM
First of all, "rifles" have been introduced since ACIII way back ... where were you all this time? Secondly, the "rifles" do actually shoot more range than the pistols ... excluding the "blunderbuss". Thirdly, it is not "realistic" to fire a rifle from edges and ropes ... in real-life situations, the recoils will make you fall. Also, we are not talking about "modern rifles" ...

I'm sure he means being able to equip the rifle as a main weapon and free-roam/etc.

Anyway, unfortunately, the rifles are pretty redundant in Unity. As unrealistic as increasing the range would be, it would definitely improve the balance and make it heck of a lot more reliable. And after all, the muskets and Air Rifle in the North American Saga had some pretty long range, so I don't see why they shouldn't apply the same distance in Unity.

medavroog
12-15-2014, 12:24 PM
I'm sure he means being able to equip the rifle as a main weapon and free-roam/etc.

Yeah, we can already do that in ACIII ... albeit, cannot sheath and keep the rifle.


Anyway, unfortunately, the rifles are pretty redundant in Unity. As unrealistic as increasing the range would be, it would definitely improve the balance and make it heck of a lot more reliable. And after all, the muskets and Air Rifle in the North American Saga had some pretty long range, so I don't see why they shouldn't apply the same distance in Unity.

Where you see as balance ... I am seeing as unbalance to the gameplay. Sure, by increase the rifle's range will make the gameplay easier ... but such is far from balanced gameplay​.

Fatal-Feit
12-15-2014, 01:38 PM
Yeah, we can already do that in ACIII ... albeit, cannot sheath and keep the rifle.

No, we can't. We couldn't parkour up or down with the rifles, nor could we parkour through trees with them either.


Where you see as balance ... I am seeing as unbalance to the gameplay. Sure, by increase the rifle's range will make the gameplay easier ... but such is far from balanced gameplay​.

Well, how may it unbalance the gameplay? Its distance is only about a fraction above pistols, and unlike rifles, the pistols are loaded with more than 2 shots. And pistols may also be used on ledges and ropes. In your average scenario, the pistol is simply more reliable, as it can already do what a rifle does, but more consistent, and you're allowed to keep your melee weapon.

I've spammed Les Enrages with my club the other day and used each of them 10 times (cuz we're completing club objectives) and I found the pistols be a lot more reliable, especially when taking down guards from a rooftop/etc.

If the rifle had more distance, it just wouldn't be unbalanced. We wouldn't just be able to headshot our targets and call it a day. That's not how the missions in Unity are designed, frankly.

Anykeyer
12-15-2014, 01:42 PM
There is no PvP, why balance is even a concern?

Fatal-Feit
12-15-2014, 01:50 PM
There is no PvP, why balance is even a concern?

Valid point, and neither should realism. I mean, it already flew out the window considering the distance with AC:3's muskets and since then.

But yeah, as OP explained, mechanically rifles are just pretty much redundant. It's nothing new in an AC game, but still. :p

Erfivur
12-15-2014, 01:56 PM
I don't think the rifles need to have a longer range for balance or whatever.

You can't say the pistols make the rifle redundant without considering that the phantom blade makes the pistol redundant.
Or that one handed swords make all the heavy weapons/long weapons redundant.
Why pick those when they don't offer anything new, they still just work in close combat?

The rifles offer an aesthetic choice and are a nice utility(Have you tried running and gunning with them, Arno does a rock'n'roll power slide and takes 'em down, usually ohk).
They do offer some greater range and I think the only thing they lack is a signature move that actually fires a bullet.
It is cool being able to use the rifle as an actual melee weapon for a change and brilliant irony that in melee they're non-lethal and a fair trade-off that they replace the other equipment, I spent a few days playing it just because initiates prompted me too basically and it was surprisingly fun.

I don't think they need a longer range as it'd simply make the game too easy. You can already fire from far out of "detection" range and to have a range as long or longer than the enemy marksman/snipers would render them useless.(As annoying as they are)
Not being able to use the rifle on ledges and ropes also is no problem for me. Finding a position with steady footing is a fair ask for the advantages the rifle brings.

I'm pretty happy with them and looking forward to the guillotine guns.

softgunforever
12-15-2014, 08:18 PM
balance and realism? i have a golden spear that can kill an officer/seeker with two hits, sometimes one, i have a pistol with eight barrels, each having the ability to take down any enemy i hit with a single shot, please tell me where i might find said "balance" because it seems to have eluded me.
realism? you are really mentioning realism in a game that gives you the ability to see enemies/loot/targets through the walls of buildings, a game revolving around **SPOILERS** killing a man who owns a golden sword made of a material unknown to man, which allows the wielder to shoot lightning at anyone he sees fit........ realism... right.
really, extending the range of rifles, or at least allowing them to be used to the same extent as pistols would only make it more fun for us who like to use rifles, and if you worry about how easy it would be to simple snipe everything from a rooftop, let me just remind you that 4/5 of all assassination missions require you to find the target inside a building, so you will likely have to go melee a few chumps, also unless you have the silver rifle, you will have to reload every shot, and even with the best gear for ranged weapons (from what i have seen looking at the stats anyway) you are only allowed a total of 11 reserve bullets, which if you have not invested in the assasin cache, is not a lot, so really, increasing the range or the possibilities will only make rifles more fun AND useful.
and as a final FYI, i have compared the range of the silver rifle to the long gun and 8barrel, and it seems to me the range is almost identical, the rifle might have half a meter more range.

similarly
12-16-2014, 02:47 AM
balance and realism? i have a golden spear that can kill an officer/seeker with two hits, sometimes one, i have a pistol with eight barrels, each having the ability to take down any enemy i hit with a single shot, please tell me where i might find said "balance" because it seems to have eluded me.
realism? you are really mentioning realism in a game that gives you the ability to see enemies/loot/targets through the walls of buildings, a game revolving around **SPOILERS** killing a man who owns a golden sword made of a material unknown to man, which allows the wielder to shoot lightning at anyone he sees fit........ realism... right.
really, extending the range of rifles, or at least allowing them to be used to the same extent as pistols would only make it more fun for us who like to use rifles, and if you worry about how easy it would be to simple snipe everything from a rooftop, let me just remind you that 4/5 of all assassination missions require you to find the target inside a building, so you will likely have to go melee a few chumps, also unless you have the silver rifle, you will have to reload every shot, and even with the best gear for ranged weapons (from what i have seen looking at the stats anyway) you are only allowed a total of 11 reserve bullets, which if you have not invested in the assasin cache, is not a lot, so really, increasing the range or the possibilities will only make rifles more fun AND useful.
and as a final FYI, i have compared the range of the silver rifle to the long gun and 8barrel, and it seems to me the range is almost identical, the rifle might have half a meter more range.

Well, when you say it like that ... lmao. Epic reply.

medavroog
12-16-2014, 05:26 AM
No, we can't. We couldn't parkour up or down with the rifles, nor could we parkour through trees with them either.

Well ... you are right ... but we still can walk with it in hand during free-roam.


Well, how may it unbalance the gameplay? Its distance is only about a fraction above pistols, and unlike rifles, the pistols are loaded with more than 2 shots. And pistols may also be used on ledges and ropes. In your average scenario, the pistol is simply more reliable, as it can already do what a rifle does, but more consistent, and you're allowed to keep your melee weapon.

The way I understood the game is ... the dev team removed a lot of features from older titles in order to give the gameplay more challenges. Thus, to allow more range on the rifle will actually make the gameplay easier ... not saying that isn't a good addition, but I believe the dev team will not tweak it to make things easier.


I've spammed Les Enrages with my club the other day and used each of them 10 times (cuz we're completing club objectives) and I found the pistols be a lot more reliable, especially when taking down guards from a rooftop/etc.

I will not argue against your insights because you do have a point ... the problem is, like I stated before, the dev team isn't going to make things easier for us on this mere argument. Shall we going to make it solid, we need a better argument.


If the rifle had more distance, it just wouldn't be unbalanced. We wouldn't just be able to headshot our targets and call it a day. That's not how the missions in Unity are designed, frankly.

Right, "unbalanced" might not be the correct term ... what I tried to voice is, the gameplay is designed to be difficult in someways of which I doubt the dev team will easily swayed by our words just like this.

JohnConnor2012
12-17-2014, 01:34 PM
I'm no ballistics expert and appreciate that ACU's emphasis should be on game balance and not historical accuracy, but 18th century muskets had an effective range of 50-100 yards and some flintlock pistols a woeful 3-4 yards, pretty much useful only in close quarter fighting. Earlier AC iterations were a lot more realistic about reload times too. Maybe ACU should at least try to reflect this distinction? Just sayin'..

medavroog
12-17-2014, 04:00 PM
I'm no ballistics expert and appreciate that ACU's emphasis should be on game balance and not historical accuracy, but 18th century muskets had an effective range of 50-100 yards and some flintlock pistols a woeful 3-4 yards, pretty much useful only in close quarter fighting. Earlier AC iterations were a lot more realistic about reload times too. Maybe ACU should at least try to reflect this distinction? Just sayin'..

Because a lot of players like the OP ranted about the realistic reloads ... I believe such swayed the devs to change it in this title. Perhaps with more rants ... the range might actually be increased ... shall not in this title, perhaps in the next.

softgunforever
12-17-2014, 04:55 PM
Because a lot of players like the OP ranted about the realistic reloads ... I believe such swayed the devs to change it in this title. Perhaps with more rants ... the range might actually be increased ... shall not in this title, perhaps in the next.

excuse me, im pretty damn sure i did not "rant" about anything in my OP, i simply suggested a change to rifles -_-

medavroog
12-17-2014, 05:58 PM
excuse me, im pretty damn sure i did not "rant" about anything in my OP, i simply suggested a change to rifles -_-

When have I said you ranted in your post? I said we need more rants about the range perhaps to achieve what was achieved in the past with rants​ about the reloading.

softgunforever
12-17-2014, 06:14 PM
When have I said you ranted in your post? I said we need more rants about the range perhaps to achieve what was achieved in the past with rants​ about the reloading.

oh, i must have just misunderstood your other post, to me "Because a lot of players like the OP ranted about the realistic reloads" sounds like you are claiming i ranted. my bad.

medavroog
12-17-2014, 06:18 PM
oh, i must have just misunderstood your other post, to me "Because a lot of players like the OP ranted about the realistic reloads" sounds like you are claiming i ranted. my bad.

No, I wasn't refer to you. I meant in the past there were players who share your view about the rifle's range as well as the reload time, they chose to rant about their case ... and to my amazement, the ACUnity actually allowed the rifles to reload much faster [seems those rants worked]. So, perhaps ... you know.

Aenigmatix
12-17-2014, 06:54 PM
Do the rifles need more range? No, not at all. They already have plenty more range than the pistols. And these are 18th century rifles we're talking about, not modern day sniper rifles. They're only accurate up to point, if historical accuracy means anything to you. Or even if it doesn't mean anything to you, consider that this game is supposed to emphasize stealth over combat. Giving the rifles any more range would make a lot of the missions way too easy if 'm able to pick off snipers from a comfortable distance without alerting other guards.

I don't think increasing the range would make the game any more "fun." I have fun by challenging myself to be sneaky and use stealth to pick off my enemies, which Ubisoft has consistently said Unity was meant to emphasize more than any other previous Assassin's Creed game. And I carry a rifle as my main weapon most of the time--I just don't need to use it often.

medavroog
12-17-2014, 07:35 PM
... And I carry a rifle as my main weapon most of the time--I just don't need to use it often.

I use rifle for stealth take-downs all the time ... smoke bomb and then wack.

softgunforever
12-18-2014, 12:28 AM
I use rifle for stealth take-downs all the time ... smoke bomb and then wack.

rifles are great melee weapons if you feel killing soldiers doing their jobs to be immoral! :D

medavroog
12-18-2014, 09:40 AM
rifles are great melee weapons if you feel killing soldiers doing their jobs to be immoral! :D

I do kill them after​ I wacked them to the floor ... wack, loot, stab ... wack, loot, stab ... wack, loot, stab.

dsmchris
12-24-2014, 04:15 AM
Perhaps the solution to the issue of the range of each weapon is not extending the rifles killzone, but in decreasing the effective range of the pistol. Reload time and realism is not the topic in question, but rather there being a purpose in carrying a weapon with a longer barrel and giving up a blade or blunt object. If realism where a concern and rifles and pistols shot accurately at the same distances, wouldn't all infantry soldiers have just used pistols that where lighter and easier to carry about?
On a side note, it really irritates me getting shot in the back a block away through crowds of people and overturned carriages.

Johnny_R3b
12-24-2014, 02:20 PM
Because a lot of players like the OP ranted about the realistic reloads ... I believe such swayed the devs to change it in this title. Perhaps with more rants ... the range might actually be increased ... shall not in this title, perhaps in the next.

the only thing that is swaying back and forth is your standpoint on realism then rewording what someone said to make it sound like it is on your side. you just plain ****ing wrong. ******* narcissist.