PDA

View Full Version : Questions After Finishing Rogue (SPOILERS)



Shahkulu101
12-08-2014, 10:31 PM
Where the hell was Shay when the American Revolution was going on? He says he's part of the American rite of the Templar's which hints he was active in America so why didn't he do anything to stop Connor? I imagine that until 1776 when he kills Charles he was searching for the box all over the world and couldn't settle in one place, but after obtaining the box surely he had to sort out things in America?

Between 1758 and 1776 we don't know what he got up to. Is a Shay sequel a possibility?

Since when do the assassins hire gangs to terrorise cities?

Why are the British army portrayed as upright and noble when they are pretty much history's biggest asshats?

Now I know the answer to the questions regarding Shay can be answered by saying Shay didn't exist during AC3's development. So something is necessary to explain the loose threads that Shay's ending brings us. I'd settle for a book, but I'd love it if there was a Rogue DLC in development that explains all this.

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 10:48 PM
Maybe he buried the box and settled down with a family?

Being a Templar is tiring...can't do it forever.

Maybe he was like: "Man, I would go and start **** with that Connor guy, but I'm tired."

Shay probably retired afterwards, who knows?

Though him coming out of his assumed retirement to fight Connor & co. would be awesome. :cool:

And yeah, I think there's something planned for all the 18th Century crew.

We'll see. ;)

Shahkulu101
12-08-2014, 10:53 PM
Maybe he buried the box and settled down with a family?

Being a Templar is tiring...can't do it forever.

Maybe he was like: "Man, I would go and start **** with that Connor guy, but I'm tired."

Shay probably retired afterwards, who knows?

Though him coming out of his assumed retirement to fight Connor & co. would be awesome. :cool:

And yeah, I think there's something planned for all the 18th Century crew.

We'll see. ;)

I would have suspected he retired but after he said 'perhaps we can start a revolution of our own' in response to Charles saying Connor and the Revolution had ruined the Colonial Templar's I thought that was a hint he wasn't done just yet.

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 11:00 PM
I would have suspected he retired but after he said 'perhaps we can start a revolution of our own' in response to Charles saying Connor and the Revolution had ruined the Colonial Templar's I thought that was a hint he wasn't done just yet.

Same here. Maybe he encountered something else that stopped him from coming back?

Or maybe he's establishing a new order to combat Connor''s brotherhood? ( Far-fetched but I can see it)

He must know Haytham's dead, right?

STDlyMcStudpants
12-08-2014, 11:01 PM
I would have suspected he retired but after he said 'perhaps we can start a revolution of our own' in response to Charles saying Connor and the Revolution had ruined the Colonial Templar's I thought that was a hint he wasn't done just yet.
There is implications that he didn't know about Connor.. that he was just hearing about him.....
I assume after he took care of achillies he assumed that there would be nothing left to worry about in the Americas and went back home...
The Revolution he was talking about starting is clearly the French Revolution.... Not going after connor..
BUT I would love to see it happen... Connor Vs Shay.. my now 2 favorite characters lol

wvstolzing
12-08-2014, 11:06 PM
Since when do the assassins hire gangs to terrorise cities?

Since Rogue came out.

Which also corresponds with the time the First Civ gains the ability to master geological forces, and hold the Earth's crust together. For what purpose, we'll surely figure out in the next installment.
So this makes them more advanced than the ancient Kryptonians. One wonders ... did they perhaps shoot a First Civ baby, definitely an Aita clone, to outer space, before the catastrophe?
Maybe the next game will be about the exploits about the Supersage, wherever he landed. Maybe the rocket will make a round trip, and come back to land in Victorian London?

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 11:07 PM
There is implications that he didn't know about Connor.. that he was just hearing about him.....
I assume after he took care of achillies he assumed that there would be nothing left to worry about in the Americas and went back home...
The Revolution he was talking about starting is clearly the French Revolution.... Not going after connor..
BUT I would love to see it happen... Connor Vs Shay.. my now 2 favorite characters lol

If that's the case, where the hell was he in Unity? :rolleyes:

Because apparently Germain was the mastermind.

And so what if he just heard about Connor? If I heard some upstart ****ed up my work and destroyed the Order, I'd come after him too.

But like I said, I think something else prevented Shay from doing so. :confused:

Shahkulu101
12-08-2014, 11:16 PM
There is implications that he didn't know about Connor.. that he was just hearing about him.....
I assume after he took care of achillies he assumed that there would be nothing left to worry about in the Americas and went back home...
The Revolution he was talking about starting is clearly the French Revolution.... Not going after connor..
BUT I would love to see it happen... Connor Vs Shay.. my now 2 favorite characters lol
I don't think he was referring to any specific revolution, the French Rev started a decade and a bit after he said that. Or maybe you're right and it was in planning for that long, but I assumed he meant metaphorically that the Templar's would rise up against the Assassin's. If he was referring to the revolution then we would have to assume he was working with Germain and his new order of Templar's, but he would have to be concentrated in France for that to be possible and well he's not in Unity...

His home is in the America's with the Templar's is it not? He never lived in Ireland as far as I know.

Well if there is a Connor Vs Shay, either Connor defeats and kills him during the years of the revolution or Shay kills Connor as an old man.

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 11:25 PM
Well if there is a Connor Vs Shay, either Connor defeats and kills him during the years of the revolution or Shay kills Connor as an old man.

Both of those would be weak... -__-

But this is the AVT war, nothing is fair. :rolleyes:

STDlyMcStudpants
12-08-2014, 11:39 PM
If that's the case, where the hell was he in Unity? :rolleyes:

Because apparently Germain was the mastermind.

And so what if he just heard about Connor? If I heard some upstart ****ed up my work and destroyed the Order, I'd come after him too.

But like I said, I think something else prevented Shay from doing so. :confused:
You know darn well where he was in unity... Sequence 1 killing Arnos father


I don't think he was referring to any specific revolution, the French Rev started a decade and a bit after he said that. Or maybe you're right and it was in planning for that long, but I assumed he meant metaphorically that the Templar's would rise up against the Assassin's. If he was referring to the revolution then we would have to assume he was working with Germain and his new order of Templar's, but he would have to be concentrated in France for that to be possible and well he's not in Unity...

His home is in the America's with the Templar's is it not? He never lived in Ireland as far as I know.

Well if there is a Connor Vs Shay, either Connor defeats and kills him during the years of the revolution or Shay kills Connor as an old man.

Well he did say perhaps its time we start one.. not when you wake up tomorrow there will be one lol.... setting up the dominoes.... perhaps after hearing he did indeed go back after connor and thats why he doesnt show up in unity later... both Shay and Connor knew benjamin franklin and george washington so perhaps Connor was uknowingly working for the templars?
Or george washington is just a neutral order... free masons.
And shay is fine with the ideology of the Free Masons and felt no need to step in...afterall shay was never mad at the assassin order, but rather the partical group going around causing earth quakes.. achillies gained wisdom and saw the perspective Shay did which could also explain why shay didnt step in... its really complicated hahahah

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 11:42 PM
You know darn well where he was in unity... Sequence 1 killing Arnos father

That was before Unity's story began, and he wasn't seen or referenced at all in that cutscene.

And the game altogether. :rolleyes:

STDlyMcStudpants
12-08-2014, 11:47 PM
That was before Unity's story began, and he wasn't seen or referenced at all in that cutscene.

And the game altogether. :rolleyes:

sure he was.. you can unlock his outfit...
It's a secret order, you act like there is a shrine of this man somewhere...its not like everybody and their sister knows who shay is.. even Arno's dad...an assassin....didnt know him as anything other than 'the traitor', he said it with assumption, not conviction.

Namikaze_17
12-08-2014, 11:53 PM
sure he was.. you can unlock his outfit...
It's a secret order, you act like there is a shrine of this man somewhere...its not like everybody and their sister knows who shay is.. even Arno's dad...an assassin....didnt know him as anything other than 'the traitor', he said it with assumption, not conviction.

That's not Canon... :rolleyes:

I never said he had to be...

But damn, you'd expect more would happened after doing what he did.

I mean, c'mon.

MegaRock35
12-09-2014, 12:11 AM
Since when do the assassins hire gangs to terrorise cities?


They always used criminals. Ezio used Mercenaries, built a Thieves guild, etc. If you really want to get specific about gangs, play III's prologue again. The only sign of the Colonial Assassins is a big fort manned by well-armed thugs who are being hired by the Assassins.

Also keep in mind they probably didn't hire them specifically to harass people. I'm pretty sure they just work with them because it's convenient and produces disposable labor. Again, look at Ezio's mercenaries, thieves, prostitutes, etc. He didn't hire prostitutes to sleep with people, just to distract them. Sleeping with them is just a thing prostitutes do. Plus Shay can kill the gangs without desync as an Assassin, IIRC, so that could point to the fact that the Assassins aren't above taking out their members.


Why are the British army portrayed as upright and noble when they are pretty much history's biggest asshats?

Not every individual member of the British army was a cackling dog-kicking baby eater. I'm sure they've abused their power, every army has had members that do, especially back then. But I'm pretty sure orders for stuff like smallpox blankets come from the top.

Also George Monro is pretty much the only redcoat in Rogue shown not to be a jerk, and even that's debatable (TV Tropes seems big on portraying him as inducing Stockholm syndrome in Shay, which seems valid but undermines the point of the game). Individual members are neutral at best, and still disposable. Plus, shooting at me for being on the rooftops in the settlement I just won for you? Pretty jerky, Sniper dude.

Shahkulu101
12-09-2014, 12:32 AM
They always used criminals. Ezio used Mercenaries, built a Thieves guild, etc. If you really want to get specific about gangs, play III's prologue again. The only sign of the Colonial Assassins is a big fort manned by well-armed thugs who are being hired by the Assassins.

Also keep in mind they probably didn't hire them specifically to harass people. I'm pretty sure they just work with them because it's convenient and produces disposable labor. Again, look at Ezio's mercenaries, thieves, prostitutes, etc. He didn't hire prostitutes to sleep with people, just to distract them. Sleeping with them is just a thing prostitutes do. Plus Shay can kill the gangs without desync as an Assassin, IIRC, so that could point to the fact that the Assassins aren't above taking out their members.



Not every individual member of the British army was a cackling dog-kicking baby eater. I'm sure they've abused their power, every army has had members that do, especially back then. But I'm pretty sure orders for stuff like smallpox blankets come from the top.

Also George Monro is pretty much the only redcoat in Rogue shown not to be a jerk, and even that's debatable (TV Tropes seems big on portraying him as inducing Stockholm syndrome in Shay, which seems valid but undermines the point of the game). Individual members are neutral at best, and still disposable. Plus, shooting at me for being on the rooftops in the settlement I just won for you? Pretty jerky, Sniper dude.

Ah, you're right about the criminals part. I just never connected the dots, although the gangs in Rogue do seem to be especially bad. I think they wanted to highlight the fact Assassin's are wrong to advocate freedom by suggesting that it leads to lawlessness or something. Plus how many of them are just hired criminals and not just actual Assassin's? The stalkers and Assassin captains certainly aren't average gang members. And doesn't hiring guys like that completely compromise the order? Not since Abbas were the Assassin's as corrupt as they are in Rogue. I'm not too bothered personally, but it makes Rogue's story rather cut and dry when it seemed like it was going to be full of blurred lines.

The British bit was ignorance on my part I'll admit. I actually really liked Monro and never got the sense he was trying to manipulate him, the two exchanged so much pleasantries I was actually speculating that they would get together! I don't understand the Stockholm bit really.

MegaRock35
12-09-2014, 12:48 AM
Ah, you're right about the criminals part. I just never connected the dots, although the gangs in Rogue do seem to be especially bad. I think they wanted to highlight the fact Assassin's are wrong to advocate freedom by suggesting that it leads to lawlessness or something. Plus how many of them are just hired criminals and not just actual Assassin's? The stalkers and Assassin captains certainly aren't average gang members. And doesn't hiring guys like that completely compromise the order? Not since Abbas were the Assassin's as corrupt as they are in Rogue. I'm not too bothered personally, but it makes Rogue's story rather cut and dry when it seemed like it was going to be full of blurred lines.

The British bit was ignorance on my part I'll admit. I actually really liked Monro and never got the sense he was trying to manipulate him, the two exchanged so much pleasantries I was actually speculating that they would get together! I don't understand the Stockholm bit really.

Yeah it was a bit simplistic. Some of the gang points is probably just because the game actually bothered to explore the whole "supporting the criminals" thing. Not sure how many were just gang members or actual Assassins, but the game and the devs made a point to call them Gang Leaders, and I think one dev said they were trained by Assassins. Maybe it's because Hope uses them to train actual Assassins, so they paid attention and picked up on it? It isn't clear cut, 'cos even the Stalkers seem to carry daggers like the Agile guards instead of Hidden Blades.

Also yeah, it's fine, the redcoats did messed up things, so it IS weird to see them like that, especially after two straight games of fighting them. :P Monro was cool, and though he seemed to manipulate Shay a bit (he did ask an injured man he just met to rescue a guy for him...), I do think he really was just a nice guy. Pretty sure it said he actually disobeyed orders to save Shay, and he was close with the Finnegans, so I don't think it was purely a calculated act.

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 01:34 AM
I want a book of Shay's life from Liam's death to the retrieval of the box. Also explain why he wasnt mentioned in Haytham's journal

And DLC of what he did after he got the thing.


Maybe he was like: "Man, I would go and start **** with that Connor guy, but I'm tired."

LOLOLOLOL. I want a comicstrip of this.

Him standing all triumphantly

then him sinking back into his warm comfty chair, lol

Namikaze_17
12-09-2014, 01:57 AM
LOLOLOLOL. I want a comicstrip of this.

Him standing all triumphantly

then him sinking back into his warm comfty chair, lol

Haha. XD

Agreed.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2014, 02:04 AM
The world's a big place, with a lot of things to do in it. Shay seems like a pretty important dude. I suppose it's not even that far fetched for Shay and Connor to even both be involved in the American Revolution, yet never cross paths.

MakimotoJin
12-09-2014, 02:41 AM
The world's a big place, with a lot of things to do in it. Shay seems like a pretty important dude. I suppose it's not even that far fetched for Shay and Connor to even both be involved in the American Revolution, yet never cross paths.

The fans demand it.At least both talking things out.

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 03:32 AM
The world's a big place, with a lot of things to do in it. Shay seems like a pretty important dude. I suppose it's not even that far fetched for Shay and Connor to even both be involved in the American Revolution, yet never cross paths.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2011/09/mind_blown.gif

SHAY WAS HAYTHAM'S BACK UP PLAN ALL ALONG!

bgfgty66
12-09-2014, 03:37 AM
I have a question, Did Shay replace Haytham as head Templar when Haytham died? Shay seemed like he was very important dude, after all in every scene when we as the player where in the real world that one abstergo agent was fanboying all over the place about Shay.

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 03:38 AM
I have a question, Did Shay replace Haytham as head Templar when Haytham died? Shay seemed like he was very important dude, after all in every scene when we as the player where in the real world that one abstergo agent was fanboying all over the place about Shay.

We don't know.

wvstolzing
12-09-2014, 03:42 AM
I have a question, Did Shay replace Haytham as head Templar when Haytham died? Shay seemed like he was very important dude, after all in every scene when we as the player where in the real world that one abstergo agent was fanboying all over the place about Shay.

Probably not; otherwise he wouldn't have been a "nobody, as far as I know" to the annoying woman at the start. Neither she, nor Otso seemed to be sure who Shay was at the beginning; it doesn't seem like he became a grandmaster.

(Though regardless of that, it was odd for top-level Templars not to know anything about him.)

cawatrooper9
12-09-2014, 03:45 AM
Shay seems to be pretty off the record. After all, even Berg seemed to know little about him

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 03:47 AM
Shay does everything underground and covers up his tracks.

I like that.

I like to think he censored himself out of Haytham's journal.

bgfgty66
12-09-2014, 03:47 AM
(Though regardless of that, it was odd for top-level Templars not to know anything about him.)perhaps Shay really did something crazy that revolutionized the Templars, hence the secrecy? made a pact with the first civilization, after all isn't Juno or something living in abstergos computers...or something

mikeyf1999
12-09-2014, 03:54 AM
Isn't it possible shay wasn't mentioned in the journal because haytham didn't want connor to know about him?
I mean, he loved his son, but i doubt he'd just say, "oh yeah, the guy who I instructed to find a box that can help with locating artifacts holding the world together is still out there and most likely alive" I mean, pretty sure connor would get the wrong idea, hunt shay down and kill him without actually knowing shay's intentions

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 03:56 AM
Isn't it possible shay wasn't mentioned in the journal because haytham didn't want connor to know about him?
I mean, he loved his son, but i doubt he'd just say, "oh yeah, the guy who I instructed to find a box that can help with locating artifacts holding the world together is still out there and most likely alive" I mean, pretty sure connor would get the wrong idea, hunt shay down and kill him without actually knowing shay's intentions

One problem

"My father never lied to me. With this journal, I intend to preserve this custom" -Haytham

I think Shay took himself out of the journal.

gnosis_guyver1
12-09-2014, 04:09 AM
Where the hell was Shay when the American Revolution was going on? He says he's part of the American rite of the Templar's which hints he was active in America so why didn't he do anything to stop Connor? I imagine that until 1776 when he kills Charles he was searching for the box all over the world and couldn't settle in one place, but after obtaining the box surely he had to sort out things in America?

Between 1758 and 1776 we don't know what he got up to. Is a Shay sequel a possibility?

Since when do the assassins hire gangs to terrorise cities?

Why are the British army portrayed as upright and noble when they are pretty much history's biggest asshats?

Now I know the answer to the questions regarding Shay can be answered by saying Shay didn't exist during AC3's development. So something is necessary to explain the loose threads that Shay's ending brings us. I'd settle for a book, but I'd love it if there was a Rogue DLC in development that explains all this.



The assassins needed men and influence but unlike the noble thieves, mercs and courtesans of ezios time all with clear limits and codes like the thieves never steal from the poor the assassins little helpers had none.

My guess the assassin saw them as necessary so telerated those hell Liam did something like that with Kesegowaase he did quite a few brutal acts against British soldiers unnecessary ones mind you.

My guess the british in those days when everything was going good for em might have been that and the king was less paranoid. Sadly the king got more paranoid letter on. whihc led to the revolution.

STDlyMcStudpants
12-09-2014, 04:12 AM
We also have to remember that these are 'memories'
That just because a certain ancestor doesnt REMEMBER a figure doesnt mean they werent there.. how do we know shay just wasnt behind the scenes and Connor never met him or knew of him...
And same goes for Shay.. What if he never knew connor and achillies were behind the red coats getting their butts handed to them? :D
WHAT IF.. Nothing happened the way connor remembers things and he was tellling himself lies in his head hahaha

JustPlainQuirky
12-09-2014, 04:14 AM
What if Shay found a Piece of Eden that allowed him to wipe memory of himself and the box from the world for the sake of hiding the box/protecting society? :0

Namikaze_17
12-09-2014, 04:42 AM
What if Shay found a Piece of Eden that allowed him to wipe memory of himself and the box from the world for the sake of hiding the box/protecting society? :0



"But In the end, it doesn't matter how history remembers me..."

Yeah, I can see that. ^^

wvstolzing
12-09-2014, 05:14 AM
We also have to remember that these are 'memories'
That just because a certain ancestor doesnt REMEMBER a figure doesnt mean they werent there.. how do we know shay just wasnt behind the scenes and Connor never met him or knew of him...
And same goes for Shay.. What if he never knew connor and achillies were behind the red coats getting their butts handed to them? :D
WHAT IF.. Nothing happened the way connor remembers things and he was tellling himself lies in his head hahaha

That would be awesome -- and there have been similar theories in the past, e.g., about the Ezio trilogy being *his* version of all the events, the way his simple & egocentric mind wanted to construe everything. However, that's not AT ALL how the developers have approached the 'genetic memories' business -- for them it's like capturing candid footage, from the past, as one-dimensional as that.

STDlyMcStudpants
12-09-2014, 05:30 AM
That would be awesome -- and there have been similar theories in the past, e.g., about the Ezio trilogy being *his* version of all the events, the way his simple & egocentric mind wanted to construe everything. However, that's not AT ALL how the developers have approached the 'genetic memories' business -- for them it's like capturing candid footage, from the past, as one-dimensional as that.

I know.. but its nice to think about hahaha

mantledarcanum
12-09-2014, 10:05 PM
Issue:
Shay plays paddycake with Dorian: Dec. 27, 1776
Connor and Haytham have their final meeting: Sept. 16, 1781

That gives us a few years of nope.

wickywoowoo
12-09-2014, 10:54 PM
I'd laugh if there is a scene in AC3 with Haytham talking to some random Irish guy and no one has remembered or picked up on it yet. Surely Rogue was in development at the tail end of AC3's work if the times Ubisoft give are real so it is possible he's hidden away somewhere as you'd expect they had his name and story planned by then.

MegaRock35
12-09-2014, 11:12 PM
I'd laugh if there is a scene in AC3 with Haytham talking to some random Irish guy and no one has remembered or picked up on it yet. Surely Rogue was in development at the tail end of AC3's work if the times Ubisoft give are real so it is possible he's hidden away somewhere as you'd expect they had his name and story planned by then.

Not all of the games get the same development time. Revelations was less than a year, Brotherhood was a bit over one IIRC. Plus this is Ubisoft Sofia rather than any of their "A" teams. I imagine they got table scraps as a budget (hence the reused assets).