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View Full Version : ok, the 47 rool rate is wrong...what about a paddle prop for the D22?



Ki_Rin
03-04-2004, 09:47 AM
the paddle props on the D27, which bless it with better acc and climb, appear to be missing from the D22, which is strange considering that it was introduced in the D21 block...so now in FB if u want decnet climb and acc in a 47, u have to take a D27, but suffer its lame-*** roll rate and gun platform instability(reative to the "razorback" models)...can we get the correct paddle props for the D22 block P47s, Oleg?...also, maybe we can get the 2x torpedo loadout in 38s...they were tested with them, and did well

Ki_Rin
03-04-2004, 09:47 AM
the paddle props on the D27, which bless it with better acc and climb, appear to be missing from the D22, which is strange considering that it was introduced in the D21 block...so now in FB if u want decnet climb and acc in a 47, u have to take a D27, but suffer its lame-*** roll rate and gun platform instability(reative to the "razorback" models)...can we get the correct paddle props for the D22 block P47s, Oleg?...also, maybe we can get the 2x torpedo loadout in 38s...they were tested with them, and did well

Cragger
03-04-2004, 11:20 AM
Apparently the D22s The Russians recieved where not equipped with Paddle props per Oleg's information. However, now that the sim is stretching more and more into the western front this becoming more irrelavent.

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Magister__Ludi
03-04-2004, 04:42 PM
P-47D fitted with paddle prop had a best initial climb of 3200fpm which is much better that what you have in the game. So keep it quiet.

WhiskeyRiver
03-04-2004, 06:21 PM
why not another D-22. have a US D-22 with paddle blade and Export version without. All you would have to change is the prop and maybe the gunsite.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

SkyChimp
03-04-2004, 06:45 PM
The D-22 exported to the Soviets had the same prop as those that went to the USAAF.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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Bull_dog_
03-04-2004, 06:50 PM
I thought the whole reason for having a D-22 was to model the paddel blade prop ....

I guess I learned something new... I knew it didn't perform like a paddle blade prop but the Jug doesn't perform like a jug in dive or roll either...Oleg just doesn't like her http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I think a paddle blade prop, d-27 roll rate fixed and a little more aggressive dive acceleration would make all us Jug whiners very happy without compromising the integrity of the game...I think this would be a more accurate representation anyways


Oleg???

WhiskeyRiver
03-04-2004, 06:52 PM
So basically we're gettin hosed on 2 variants of the Jug. Un-f*ckin-believable.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

VW-IceFire
03-04-2004, 06:58 PM
Ok...so how about a P-47D-27 US then? Or is that not a difference either?

I'd be really nice to have the D-27 perform as advertised. Its really my only complaint with the game right now...the plane has been a bit of a problem from the start and while things have been improved for the other two models this is the sole remaining thing. The P-47 will and should never be a nimble fighter...but increasing the roll rate to what I'm convinced it historically is will make it the fighter its supposed to be and honestly it'll never be an overmodeled aircraft since we already know what the D-10 and D-22 do in combat. Its just strange that the one with a nicer view has more trouble...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Bull_dog_
03-04-2004, 08:09 PM
Roll rate is the biggy for sure...

I have not read that it doesn't turn good enough, or that its high altitude performance is bad, or that it doesn't attain a high speed in a dive from altitude, or that its 50's are too powerful, or it is too fast etc....

Only roll is not right...now 2 of 3 models are brought to acceptable levels...don't hear much anymore about D-10 and D-22....so why not fix the D-27? I don't understand why it isn't done already... the plane will not become uber, or even inaccurate ... I don't see any comments from Oleg on it either

the paddle prop thing is news to me and it would be nice to have the 22 and maybe 27 modelled that way, but I'm not counting on it.

p1ngu666
03-04-2004, 09:06 PM
they could do a d25 or d30 for example with the changes..
atm d10 is the best, which is odd

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

LuftLuver
03-04-2004, 09:27 PM
And now the Jug's ONE and only advantage, the .50 cals, appear to have been toned down in hitting power. You can easily pour your entire load into a 190 to no structural effect. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Copperhead310th
03-04-2004, 11:52 PM
lol your right. thier even worse now than beofore. we call em .50 Cal BB's.

basicly you dould do more damage with a sling shot & a bag of rocks than with the US Browning >50 Cals. in FB. yet every gun on the german arsenal will kill you with 2 shots. not good.

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310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron)

WhiskeyRiver
03-05-2004, 01:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
lol your right. thier even worse now than beofore. we call em .50 Cal BB's.

basicly you dould do more damage with a sling shot & a bag of rocks than with the US Browning &gt;50 Cals. in FB. yet every gun on the german arsenal will kill you with 2 shots. not good.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
_http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg's probably mad at all of us who pointed out the mistakes in the US fighters FM's. I don't think he grasps what a bullet capable of killing an elephant at 400 yards or destroying APC's (BRDM, BTR's and BMP-1's) at over 200 will do to an aluminum or wooden airplane.

Carlos Hathcock used a scope equipped M2HB machine loaded with standard ball ammo to sink sampans at 2500 yards in Vietnam. If a bullet can knock a hole in a boat at 1.5 miles, multiple guns should rip an airplane to pieces at less than a 1/5th of that distance. At 300 yards a 50 cal Browning API round delivers 2271 foot-lbs of energy. muliplied times 8 guns is over 18,000 foot-lb's of energy! Even without an explosive shell, a short burst at convergence range should demolish any fighter out there.

They modeled the Bell X-1's shape after that of a .50 cal bullet. Why? because it had an extremely low drag coefficient.

The castration of the US aircraft in this game is really starting to bug me.

Heres a few examples:

P-47: bullet spread, no paddle blade prop, slow dive, incorrect bullet damage, (D-27) incorrect roll rate, gauges don't work

P-51: bullet spread, too slow, bullet damage, early blackout, cockpit shrouded in darkness

P-38 (as reported by others): torque effects(should be none), roll rate slower in L than J, incorrect turn rate, nose shake when firing(where the h*ll did you come up with that?) Heavy elevator at high speeds(real -38 had no problems diving after anything below 20,000 feet)

P-40 roll rate(fixed), bullet damage

2 emails from Oleg have been posted on this forum expressing his OPINIONS about the P-47 and P-38. He has a low opinion of both these aircraft. Earlier, less effective versions of these aircraft were beating the Luftwaffe and IJAAF even in the early days of the war.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

03-05-2004, 01:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-47: bullet spread, no paddle blade prop, slow dive, incorrect bullet damage, (D-27) incorrect roll rate, gauges don't work<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proof for the first and fifth assumption?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-51: bullet spread, too slow, bullet damage, early blackout, cockpit shrouded in darkness<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proof for the first, second, third, fourth assumption?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-38 (as reported by others): torque effects(should be none), roll rate slower in L than J, incorrect turn rate, nose shake when firing(where the h*ll did you come up with that?) Heavy elevator at high speeds(real -38 had no problems diving after anything below 20,000 feet)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proof for the first, third, fourth, fifth assumption?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-40 roll rate(fixed), bullet damage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proof? Where are these proofs?

Where in the heck did anyone come up with something like "real -38 had no problems diving after anything below 20,000 feet", which is a complete misunderstanding of the initially documented and known material?

Are you absolutely sure you aren't listening to only what you want to hear?

Aaron_GT
03-05-2004, 01:58 AM
"Heavy elevator at high speeds(real -38 had no problems diving after anything below 20,000 feet)"

The P-38 had compressibility issues. Perhaps
this is the source of the elevator forces in the
game.

"Earlier, less effective versions of these aircraft were beating the Luftwaffe and IJAAF even in the early days of the war."

The pilot, tactics, and tactical situations
also play a part, and can be hard to tease
out from figures on kill:loss ratios.

"P-51: bullet spread, too slow, "

It's arguable if it is too slow. With coaxing
it can be got to the correct speed at 7600m.
As to whether it should be easier to get to
that speed it's hard to know without knowing
what North American's testing procedures were.

.50 effectiveness is subjective. I remember
people saying that the I-153 was virtually
immune to MG damage and the first thing I
took out online with a P47 was an I-153 in
a DF server. If I'd had to base my opinion
on that I would have said that they were
very effective. At other times I've had
considerable problems downing aircraft with
the .50. On the whole, though, if I set up
an attack on a Ju-52 and get to about 150 yards
before opening up I can blow a wing or tail
off 2 times out of 3. My gunnery is lousy too.
At 250 yards, it's a completely different matter.
(This is under 1.22 - I am in the UK so don't
have AEP yet). Ditto with the Hurricane IIc -
sometimes a short burst and an He111 goes
straight down, at other times it takes forever.
Sometimes it can be taken out by a couple of
12.7mm guns.

Ki_Rin
03-05-2004, 02:23 PM
i agree with aaron on most points, particularly the 38...to wit the elevator forces high speed. on my first flight, i naturally came to a test dive, and wow! just under700kph, @...6k, steep, around50 degrees, i could tell , compressability. the pitch forces on stick were reversed slightly, but otherwise to no effect....i knew it was already way to late at about 1800-2k, but i tried the flaps (combat), and a signifigant of lift was seen, bu ti crashed...later i tried again, when in a online df, and with the flaps, i managed a narrow pull out on the deck @800kph, along with a fair amount of buffeting...raised the flaps, and an easy zoom climb....the bad news? that beautiful speed decays like nothing else in 38, most alarming, to say the least! anyway, compressibility is a well-known event often associated with the 38, it being one of the first ac to experience it. this association shouldnt mean that this is "the comp. plane"....aside from th B1 rockets comp. or transonic behavior this, all the other ac in the game do not have such a low threshold for this event...why?....anyone whos been in a jug, say a D10, even, going over 1000kph, able to pull out with little difficulty, and often staying in one piece, at the same time...or a La7, until up to 800kph, then she breaks up, hehe
ok, the gun shake seems to be totally uncalled for....this is a heavy, sturdy fighter, a very stable gun platform, specially at high speed.i can accept a little shake, A LITTLE shake, no more than average of any other ac, cetainly...
now i dont know if the 38 cockpit was done in-house or 3rd party, but im sorry to say its not too sh t hot. one only has to look to jane's(that ignorant ****) ww2fighters, and now that was a 38 cockpit...look at it sometime...
i must say the sound of the twin is MUSIC! no complaints there, for sure...otherwise, a nice plane, good climb, great acceleration, stalls a lil easy, but acceptible, but deep stalls are NASTY!the roll issue im not sure if real data on rolls are aileron rolls or rudder asst. but if ya gotta rudder, ya gotta.
AEP is very nice, a great new rng of ac, plus all the rest, my thanks and kudos to OLEG, &lt;S&gt;!
but one thing, oleg, whatever u fix in the gaem, if and when u do, ya gotta start with the yankee stuff, really...airframes(FM), .50cal...

Ki_Rin
03-05-2004, 02:23 PM
i agree with aaron on most points, particularly the 38...to wit the elevator forces high speed. on my first flight, i naturally came to a test dive, and wow! just under700kph, @...6k, steep, around50 degrees, i could tell , compressability. the pitch forces on stick were reversed slightly, but otherwise to no effect....i knew it was already way to late at about 1800-2k, but i tried the flaps (combat), and a signifigant of lift was seen, bu ti crashed...later i tried again, when in a online df, and with the flaps, i managed a narrow pull out on the deck @800kph, along with a fair amount of buffeting...raised the flaps, and an easy zoom climb....the bad news? that beautiful speed decays like nothing else in 38, most alarming, to say the least! anyway, compressibility is a well-known event often associated with the 38, it being one of the first ac to experience it. this association shouldnt mean that this is "the comp. plane"....aside from th B1 rockets comp. or transonic behavior this, all the other ac in the game do not have such a low threshold for this event...why?....anyone whos been in a jug, say a D10, even, going over 1000kph, able to pull out with little difficulty, and often staying in one piece, at the same time...or a La7, until up to 800kph, then she breaks up, hehe
ok, the gun shake seems to be totally uncalled for....this is a heavy, sturdy fighter, a very stable gun platform, specially at high speed.i can accept a little shake, A LITTLE shake, no more than average of any other ac, cetainly...
now i dont know if the 38 cockpit was done in-house or 3rd party, but im sorry to say its not too sh t hot. one only has to look to jane's(that ignorant ****) ww2fighters, and now that was a 38 cockpit...look at it sometime...
i must say the sound of the twin is MUSIC! no complaints there, for sure...otherwise, a nice plane, good climb, great acceleration, stalls a lil easy, but acceptible, but deep stalls are NASTY!the roll issue im not sure if real data on rolls are aileron rolls or rudder asst. but if ya gotta rudder, ya gotta.
AEP is very nice, a great new rng of ac, plus all the rest, my thanks and kudos to OLEG, &lt;S&gt;!
but one thing, oleg, whatever u fix in the gaem, if and when u do, ya gotta start with the yankee stuff, really...airframes(FM), .50cal...

JG26Red
03-05-2004, 02:33 PM
nobody is every happy with their favorite plane... there are no planes in this game that are correct on everything..

well, unless its one of those that the russians flew in WW2... i.e. the flying ufo twins la and yak.. lol... feel for ya 47 guys... i tried flying it and its very hard to make it work well, gotta get high and keep speed up or you may be a sitting duck... you have the wrong color stars on you plane i take it.

PzKpfw
03-05-2004, 03:26 PM
The Paddle prop entered service with the D20 block, and comparative tests vs an Fw 190A-5 showed the P-47 w/paddle & WI outclimbed the Fw 190A-5 upto 15000ft.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

VW-IceFire
03-05-2004, 03:41 PM
The P-47 isn't even my favorite plane or even close to it. Its just that when I fly it I kinda feel like something isn't quite right with it all the time. Its pretty good most of the time but not all.

Please check my thread that I posted and do a quick test. We may be dealing with some kind of bug so it'd be nice to eliminate some possibilities by doing some statistical testing.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=527102162

I also wonder if pure roll rate is fine but the initial rate is too slow.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

PzKpfw
03-05-2004, 05:10 PM
I'd like just a simple response from Oleg on the P-47D-27 rollrate. I dont understand why this issue has dragged on w/o any response from him (I have seen anyway). Yet other new threads get immiadate protracted attention.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

Aaron_GT
03-05-2004, 06:00 PM
Ice fire, I know what you mean. The P47 does
feel very heavy, and it is mostly good for
straight lines. I haven't really put in
enough work to be able to dogfight in it well.
The P51 is another matter - much easier to fly,
and a very nice high cruise rate for loitering
ready to hit and run.

Bull_dog_
03-09-2004, 02:44 PM
bump