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VonShlagnoff
01-30-2004, 02:58 PM

VonShlagnoff
01-30-2004, 02:58 PM

BaldieJr
01-30-2004, 03:01 PM
A plane is a plane
Its just a game
All this jet whining
is making me insane

As proven by this crap poetry.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

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XyZspineZyX
01-30-2004, 03:06 PM
None of the above.

I think ONE jet truly belongs in the sim, the Me262, because it saw quite a lot of meaningful combat and actually made a significant impact. The others (Me162, 163, Meteors and especially the P-80) are pretty much afterthoughts.

carguy_
01-30-2004, 03:16 PM
Well,I think only those jet planes should be in FB that saw combat.Two jets saw combat I`m sure - Me 262 and da Comet.P80,Meteor and Go229 were just projects.I say,ok,each and every jet that saw combat from 1939-8thMay1945.

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faustnik
01-30-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
None of the above.

I think ONE jet truly belongs in the sim, the Me262, because it saw quite a lot of meaningful combat and actually made a significant impact. The others (Me162, 163, Meteors and especially the P-80) are pretty much afterthoughts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree on the Me163. It did see a fair amount of action, even it was better at killing its own pilots than the enemy.

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hotspace
01-30-2004, 03:20 PM
And the Meteor shot down many V-1's over England http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hot Space

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XyZspineZyX
01-30-2004, 03:24 PM
Buzz bomb intercepts? I'd hardly say that qualifies as "combat" in the sim's sense of the word.

As far as the 162 and 163 go, they were desperation planes piloted by kids. It wasn't as if there were established Geschwader flying these, as was the case with JV44 and JG7 flying the 262 jets.

VonShlagnoff
01-30-2004, 03:33 PM
What was it then Daisy picking? V1s were dangerou to shoot down. As for the one p80 mission flown in Italy phhhhh.

VF-17_WOODMAN
01-30-2004, 03:37 PM
I don`t care i just want a flyable B-25

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VonShlagnoff
01-30-2004, 03:41 PM
I hear ya

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 03:43 PM
Both Me262 and 163 saw combat on eastern front and i allow them in some missions. As for other 2 and BI - 1 .. Well, i simply respect time and dedicaton of those who made them. But including them in plane set is questionable on my side http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Platypus_1.JaVA
01-30-2004, 03:47 PM
Personally, I would like to give the allies the Meteor. It was still used in the war but, only for V1 intercepting, IIRC. The Me-163 should also be added.

I feel a bit double harted about the P-80 and the Go-229. On one hand, it is nice to have them, it gives the sim a bit extra but, on the other hand, the Go-229 was still a prototype and IIRC wasn't even armed and they sended two P-80's to italy, early 1945, for flight testing, not combat. that makes it a bit irrelevant for WWII.

I will fly them but, my heart stays with the mid-war planes I think.

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[Gypsy]
01-30-2004, 03:47 PM
No more jets.. propeller driven bombers please...

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Thrawn888
01-30-2004, 03:55 PM
as far as i know the meteor was used to incercept buzz bombs but was also used for ground pounding missions over germany in late 44 and early 45, so i think it qualifies as being in the war.

The 262 and 163 both saw action the 162 while a crazy idea was in the air.

But quite frankly i think any jet idea is welcome and good if you dont like it dont fly it or dont fly in that server and thats that.

JG26Red
01-30-2004, 03:57 PM
262, 162, 163 and easily qualify as they all fought and have air to air kills... meteor to some extent but barely and p80 and g0229 not at all... thats how i feel and how i will adjust my server...

F19_Olli72
01-30-2004, 04:04 PM
While i dont like jets...the He162 DID see action. The only confirmed 'kill' was credited to Lt. R. Schmitt who on 4 May '45 shot down a Typhoon. The British pilot survived and was captured, he confirmed he was shot down by a jet.

Thrawn888
01-30-2004, 04:06 PM
the whole jet whining issue really confuses me, i dont understand why the fuss u dont like a server dont fly in it.

I mean that makes sense right???

JG26Red
01-30-2004, 04:16 PM
HE 162 apparently had more than 1 kill.. but it was a hastily created plane, which if you think about it was rather remarkable considering the short time to design and make it fly... if they had more time to perfect a few things the plane could have been very deadly

HE-162 IN ACTION
* The first Luftwaffe unit to fly the He-162 was an evaluation unit named "Erprobungskommando 162", formed at the Luftwaffe test center at Rechlin under the command of Oberstleutnant Heinz Baer, a respected combat pilot who was credited with 200 kills.

46 He-162s were delivered to the Luftwaffe in February, allowing Baer's unit to acquire familiarity with the type. That month also saw deliveries of the He-162 to its first operational unit, the "Ist Gruppe / Jagdgeschwader 1 (I/JG-1)", which had previously flown the Focke-Wulf FW-190.

I/JG-1 was pulled back to Parchim, not far from the Heinkel factory at Marienhe, where the Luftwaffe pilots could pick up their new jets. They began intensive training on the type in March, but by that time the Third Reich was obviously on the threshold of collapse and transportation and fuel supply was grinding to a halt under the pressure of Allied air attacks.

On 7 April, the USAAF bombed the field at Parchim with 134 B-17 Flying Fortresses. Two days later, I/JG-1 left their demolished facilities to move to a nearby airfield at Ludwigslust. Less than a week later they moved again, flying north to an airfield at Leck, in Schleswig-Holstein, near the Danish border. In the meantime, II Gruppe of JG-1 had moved to the Heinkel airfield at Marienhe to begin trading their FW-190s for He-162s.

* The He-162 finally began to see combat in mid-April. On 19 April, the pilot of a British Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter who had been captured by the Germans informed his interrogators that he had been shot down by a jet fighter whose description was clearly that of a He-162. The Heinkel and its pilot were lost as well, shot down by an RAF Tempest fighter while returning to base.

On 20 April, a Luftwaffe pilot successfully ejected from a He-162, though the reason for the hasty exit from his aircraft was not recorded. One possibility is that he simply ran out of fuel. The He-162's half-hour endurance was simply not enough, and at least two of JG-1's pilots were killed making "dead-stick" landings after exhausting their fuel.

On 4 May, all of JG-1's surviving He-162s were formed into a special consolidated "Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Group)", but this action amounted to little more than "rearranging the deck chairs on the TITANIC". On 5 May, the Germans agreed to a cease-fire and the He-162s were all grounded.

From mid-April, I/JG-1 had scored a number of kills, but had also lost thirteen He-162s and ten pilots. Most of the losses were from flying accidents, due to problems such as engine flame-outs and occasional structural failures. The difficulties with the type seem to have been due to the fact that it was rushed into production, not that it was an inherently bad design. One experienced Luftwaffe pilot who flew it called it a "first-class combat aircraft".

Erprobungskommando 162 fighters, which had been passed on to an operational unit under Adolf Galland a few weeks earlier, were all destroyed by their crews to keep the jets from falling into Allied hands. However, JG-1 cooperatively turned their He-162s over to the Allies, and examples of the fighter were then flown in the US, Britain, France, and the USSR.

One British pilot who evaluated the He-162 also praised it, though a second British pilot was killed in November 1945 during an air display at Farnborough. One of the tailfins broke off, sending the fighter into the ground.

* The design had some clear weaknesses, of course, such as its short endurance and the fact that the position of the engine left the pilot almost completely blind to the vital rear "six" position. Some sources also state that the back-mounted engine made the aircraft logitudinally unstable, rendering any maneuvers that "threw the aircraft around" unsafe.

However, in one sense the He-162 was remarkable: it was designed and flown in three months, and in the five months following several hundred were built under the most difficult conditions. It was fortunate for the Allies that the He-162 was much too late to be anything more than a footnote to the history of the air war over Europe, but a certain curiosity remains over what it might have been able to do had events been more favorable to it.

A handful of Volksjaegers still exist as static displays in museums around the world. None remain flying. Given that the lack of hardened alloys meant that German jet engines sometimes had to be scrapped after as little as ten hours of flight operations, it is unlikely one of the original He-162s will ever fly again.

DONB3397
01-30-2004, 07:42 PM
One of the appeals of FB is its commitment to accuracy. They've modeled a/c from before the war til its conclusion. And the jets were there.

If we want to make sure they stay in a real time frame, I guess we can set up servers for specific time frames (and planesets).

The only requirement, I think, is that the jets be modelled realistically. The He162 had a half-hour flight time, and no one ever successfully landed it flamed out. It was a tiny a/c with very little wing area. It must have been a bugger to land under any circumstances. The Komet went straight up and came straight down; no one ever cruised around looking at the scenery. It landed on a skid.

If the FMs line up with reality, why not include them?

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woofiedog
01-31-2004, 02:00 AM
To Stiglr,
Maybe a book or two may help with your insight of WW2 aircraft and uses of such aircraft.
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Tully__
01-31-2004, 02:07 AM
The Me262, the Me163 and the He162 all have a place. The Meteor and P-80 arguably have a place. The Whittle has as much right as the P-80 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't mind them, as hosts & mission designers can allow or disallow them as they choose. I'd be rather upset though if there was no way to control their use.

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VonShlagnoff
01-31-2004, 04:18 PM
ttt

Black Sheep
01-31-2004, 07:35 PM
Jets that actually flew in the war, sure, if someone wants to model them then fine, include them by all means I say.

Personally, they don't do anything for me but if early jets light your fire I'm not going to try to stop anyone from flying them offline or on their own servers. As many others have pointed out, those of us who aren't into jets and think they're be a little uber compared to the props aren't going to be forced to fly on servers that support their use.

The one thing I would like to see myself are more bombers; I really hope the B25 makes it as a flyable bird in the expansion pack as I am sick of the bloody H111, good ship though she is.

More bombers ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

HarryVoyager
01-31-2004, 08:05 PM
Well, to be brutally honest, the German jets don't have a place in this sim either. They are simply so much faster than any other aircraft that they are banned from nearly every server out there. About the only servers that do not restrict the 262 are the ones hosted by new players, who haven't figured out how to remove them.

I mean, sure you can host games with the 262 allowed, and the P-80 banned, but it gets awefully lonely in there with just German jets, and nobody else to play with.

Harry Voyager

WUAF_Badsight
01-31-2004, 08:17 PM
well with more options im sure WW2 jet use is going to increase

i love 262 coops & trying to survive them isnt easy

flying the 262 requiers more patience as your TnB isnt as easy or tight , its not only new people that host with the 262 enabeled , its also those that want the challenge of flying them & fighting them

BM357_Raven
02-01-2004, 03:06 AM
I think there should be jets but people should not fly them. If they do fly them they should try hard not to fly them well. If they are unable to fly them poorly then they should restrict their loadout to Bombs Only!

The other alternative would be that the LW would only fly the Emil. And to further this fantasy it would only make sense to award the P-51 with two more 50 cal's and perhaps merely another 500 horse.

That would be optimal.

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BM357_Raven
02-01-2004, 03:08 AM
And with that, I wish to retract everything I have ever said... Please do not read anything I posted in the past.


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WUAF_Badsight
02-01-2004, 05:39 AM
`
ok .....

i promise to only ever fly my Emil when its Mustangs on the other side from now on



my 4000 pound thrust , twin turbine jet Emil

JtD
02-01-2004, 06:27 AM
I think jets have a right to be in the sim, but I don't fly them (frequently).

BaneTheEvilOne
02-01-2004, 06:53 AM
German jets (except ho229) should have place online as they did in real war, p80 never flew operational missions in European theatre and should be banned from servers, people can fly them ofline same as go229, the way i see this, because soon Americans will ask for f16 in FB, lets have some respect for history, in 1945 ONLY GERMANS HAD OPERATIONAL JETS IN EUROPEAN THEATRE. Only gloster meteor was present, but it was a crapy plane to fly, thats why they put p80 in. This kiss *** is discusting.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-01-2004, 07:28 AM
i think the 262 should be included in the late war servers,but i wish there was an option to make them limited so not everybody will fly them as it was in real life.
the 262 got any right to be in late war 1944/45 servers just as much as the K4 and the la7.
i understand people dont like them and that its hard to stay alive against them,but its not impossible to shoot them down i.e take a p47/p51 go fly on 5/6k and BnZ the crap out of them and if that wont work do some base camping http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
as for the p80 and the ho226 i dont care for them but a jet vs jet (what if) situations will be fun

just my 0.2 cents

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Kampfmeister
02-01-2004, 07:30 AM
Personally, speaking as an off-line player which most of us are, I think that only those aircraft that managed to make it into front line service should be included in the game even if they didn't get to see any action before the war ended. The Me-262, Me-163, He-162, and Meteor. The P-80, sure why not. The Go-229, kind of pushing it, so I would say no. The B1, should never have been included, but it is an interesting oddity. Anything else should be put in a special future add-on such as in the case of BF1942's Secret Weapons.

I think there has been too much emphasis put on jets lately, trying to appeal to a certain crowd, while many planes (fighters & bombers) that played a significant historical part in the war have for now been brushed off to the side and their entry into the game delayed. I too would like to see more emphasis put on the bombers.

VonShlagnoff
02-02-2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaneTheEvilOne:
German jets (except ho229) should have place online as they did in real war, p80 never flew operational missions in European theatre and should be banned from servers, people can fly them ofline same as go229, the way i see this, because soon Americans will ask for f16 in FB, lets have some respect for history, in 1945 ONLY GERMANS HAD OPERATIONAL JETS IN EUROPEAN THEATRE. Only gloster meteor was present, but it was a crapy plane to fly, thats why they put p80 in. This kiss *** is discusting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Appart from the meteor being operational in'45

MosDef_99th
02-02-2004, 12:50 PM
I think the main thing about these jets is the fact that they, IMHO, unbalance the servers a bit. Generally, once 1 pilot starts flying a 262, and well, within 5 or ten minutes at least half the people are flyin em, so what was a pretty matched prop game becomes a jet fest. Some of us tend to prefer the WW2 propeller theme of the game, which is awesome enough, but hey...we don't call the shots, do we? So I guess they can include whatever planes they want to, and we will fly them, but if the SERVER's start to become saturated with Go-229's and crap...well....I'm sure there'll be some hosts with sense.



But still, I would sure prefer an F4U, or B25, or Me110, or Hs129, or....


(p.s. and don't tell ME to model it myself, I'm just a consumer, who has to right "discuss" my preferences on the discussion forum)

JR_Greenhorn
02-02-2004, 01:51 PM
All the arguments for balance and "deserving" jets aside, to me the best idea I've yet seen is allowing the server to restrict the number of each aircraft type availible.
As has been stated previously, it would allow the limited use of jets ingame, and have the side benefit of adding incentive to return to base and land safely. Does anyone else believe this is a great idea as well? (Perhaps its time for another poll)

LeadSpitter_
02-02-2004, 05:55 PM
Hosts have the option to choose planesets, so all planes up to 46 are welcomed here, I personally would like to see more flyable eastern front aircraft and half the work is done they just need cockpits.

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TheGozr
02-02-2004, 05:59 PM
It's not a Game, I AM AT WAR...



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DaBallz
02-02-2004, 07:10 PM
Push the date to 1947 and you get the B-47 StratoJet, the P-86 XP-86 Sabre, and the F9F panther. That's just a few American planes, many more British and Russian types can be added.

I for one want to see a P-82B twin mustang.
The P-82/F-82 never saw combat (untill Korea), but were flying
and would have seen squadron service if WWII
had dragged on till Christmass. Also the P-51H
would be nice.

Since Oleg is allowing one of a kind prototypes
in the game, how about the three light weight
P-51's, the P-51F,G, and J. The P-51G would
easily out climb any prop fighter in the game and was nearly as fast as a P-51H.

By the way, there are rumors the Brits tried the P-51G in combat ofer France! They certainly got one for testing in early 1944.

Time to climb for a P-51G, 20,000' in 3.4 minutes, that's 6,100m in 3.4 min! Top speed 470mph@20,000'. Armament was installed and is the same as a P-51H, 6 X .50's.

That should eat a La-7 with ease!

Bring on an XP-72....The ultimate Thunderbolt.

Da...