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king-hailz
12-04-2014, 04:17 PM
I really think that these need to come back... It was something great that the games had! Although it wasn't the most realistic aspect of the game, it really added a lot of depth to the character and story of the game! ACU was pretty bland because of this! Some of the greatest moments in the series are in these moments and they need to come back! SERIOUSLY!

Please you have to bring these back!

Do you agree? Tell me in the poll!

JustPlainQuirky
12-04-2014, 04:24 PM
I actually disagree.

I like stabbing people and seeing what sneaky things they did in action.

D.I.D.
12-04-2014, 04:33 PM
No. The new thing is better as a super-DNA power than the old way. I would have been fine with the white room if it was consistent (i.e. I know what they would have said, if they could, thanks to a computer simulation) but the game had the ancestor somehow drawing information from an unreal thing that was hundreds of years in the future.

I also like the new way because it arrives in convenient scraps that give us just enough information to serve the story, but not enough to give us the whole picture. The white room could never have done that.

PedroAntonio2
12-04-2014, 04:44 PM
White Room are way better...or at least do it like in ACU ending where the final target talks to you and explains his motivation while showing his memories, I liked that. But only seeing memories is ridiculous.

dxsxhxcx
12-04-2014, 04:53 PM
I want them back just because reading minds is ridiculous... I used to think that seeing "ghosts from the past" like we did in ACB (with Ezio at the beginning of the game) and ACR (with Altair showing us the way and the Eagle Vision showing us the guards path) already were too much, imagine how I feel about this, I can live with an ancient civilization that were advanced enough to build tools that do amazing things (POEs) and had some sort of sixth sense that isn't that overpowered like it used to be until AC2 but reading minds and seeing through walls is just too much...

deskpe
12-04-2014, 04:58 PM
They should make the interacting with th target not be a static thing.. U dont have to see teir memories or talk to them afetr their death mix it up in the story, some you could talk to before u stab them. some while they are bleeding out. maybe some u can interrogate and then kill.

having 1 certain thing happening every time isn't nessecary, and is kindof dull.

the important story target doesent have to be the assassination mission always either. maybe u assasssinate soemone to draw out another, then stab that guy with a tranqulizer or something.

Shahkulu101
12-04-2014, 05:00 PM
Did anyone notice that ACU explained how 'white room' conversations occurred? It's because the Father of Understanding sees it fit for the Assassin and his victim to talk.

D.I.D.
12-04-2014, 05:00 PM
I want them back just because reading minds is ridiculous... I used to think that seeing "ghosts from the past" like we did in ACB (with Ezio at the beginning of the game) and ACR (with Altair showing us the way and the Eagle Vision showing us the guards path) already were too much, imagine how I feel about this, I can live with an ancient civilization that were advanced enough to build tools that do amazing things (POEs) and had some sort of sixth sense that isn't that overpowered like it used to be until AC2 but reading minds and seeing through walls is just too much...

It is all pretty silly. I like that the new way provides a consistency, pre- and post-mission. He uses the same psychic ability to scope out the surroundings and hear a few thoughts, and then the mission caps off with a more intense version of that in the kill, and in between you've got your Eagle Vision thing. It feels like one system, instead of the jumble of old.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-04-2014, 05:02 PM
I really think that these need to come back... It was something great that the games had! Although it wasn't the most realistic aspect of the game, it really added a lot of depth to the character and story of the game! ACU was pretty bland because of this! Some of the greatest moments in the series are in these moments and they need to come back! SERIOUSLY!!

I agree. It's weird, because I used to dislike them until they were gone. I think the great thing about the speeches was that they humanized the Templars. Now it may be simply that the writing is atrocious in Unity, but previous games - even the badly scripted ones - had bad guys that were complex, and the white room speeches were where that complexity became known. In Unity, all the bad guys are stereotypical bad guys, and it just cheapens the game terribly.

So yeah, bring back the white room speeches and bring back complex and interesting antagonists again. The days of the moustache twirling villain should have died long ago - no one wants them back. Give us bad guys who can at least defend their actions!

D.I.D.
12-04-2014, 05:08 PM
I agree. It's weird, because I used to dislike them until they were gone. I think the great thing about the speeches was that they humanized the Templars. Now it may be simply that the writing is atrocious in Unity, but previous games - even the badly scripted ones - had bad guys that were complex, and the white room speeches were where that complexity became known. In Unity, all the bad guys are stereotypical bad guys, and it just cheapens the game terribly.

So yeah, bring back the white room speeches and bring back complex and interesting antagonists again. The days of the moustache twirling villain should have died long ago - no one wants them back. Give us bad guys who can at least defend their actions!

La Touche is presented rather nicely, I think. Arno despises him all the way through, and we're lead to do the same, but in the end he sees a revelation via the psychic vision that makes him sympathise with him and see how his life could have taken a very different turn. If this had been a white room thing, it wouldn't have been so powerful, because it would have been La Touche defending himself, telling Arno that he ought to pity him, and that's not the same thing. Arguably it would have said something odd about La Touche that he was even asking for that consideration. The vision, because it's a camera of sorts, is more cleanly the "truth".

Pr0metheus 1962
12-04-2014, 05:09 PM
Did anyone notice that ACU explained how 'white room' conversations occurred? It's because the Father of Understanding sees it fit for the Assassin and his victim to talk.

Where does it state this? I thought the Father of Understanding was an idea, not an entity.


La Touche is presented rather nicely, I think.

Yeah, but he's the only one. The rest come off as just complete jerks. The White Room kinda forced the writers to give them a defence for their actions. Now that it's just a sort of glimpse of what's been said, they're not forced to defend the bad guys. If they started making it all about their reasons for doing what they do, I'd be fine with it staying the way it is, but so far, it's not about that, so it doesn't work as well as the White Room used to.

Shahkulu101
12-04-2014, 05:17 PM
Where does it state this? I thought the Father of Understanding was an idea, not an entity.

I'm probably wrong, but the talk at the end with Germain after you kill him...that's a white room speech right? And in it, Germain says that he's already dead but the Father of Understanding sees it fit for them to interact or something along those lines. Or maybe that wasn't a normal white room convo like from previous games but a special occurrence because he was a Sage.

D.I.D.
12-04-2014, 05:27 PM
I'm probably wrong, but the talk at the end with Germain after you kill him...that's a white room speech right? And in it, Germain says that he's already dead but the Father of Understanding sees it fit for them to interact or something along those lines. Or maybe that wasn't a normal white room convo like from previous games but a special occurrence because he was a Sage.

As I recall, Germain questions the entire basis of their conversation, as to whether it's even really happening or if it's just Arno's concussion. It makes sense for Germain, even a possibly hallucinatory Germain, to insist that it's something granted by the god in their belief system but the game isn't saying for sure that this is what's really happening. It seems as though AC is pretty ambivalent about gods in general, saying that the ancient gods of Rome were just echoes of TWCB, and that this is why they shared their names and personalities. They show us a lot of religions, but they don't allow any of them to play a part. Sometimes they even mess with those religions a bit - Jesus's crucifixion is supposed to be a Templar-orchestrated thing, in the backstory.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-04-2014, 05:30 PM
I'm probably wrong, but the talk at the end with Germain after you kill him...that's a white room speech right? And in it, Germain says that he's already dead but the Father of Understanding sees it fit for them to interact or something along those lines. Or maybe that wasn't a normal white room convo like from previous games but a special occurrence because he was a Sage.

No, you're right. But from the words he uses, I guess it could be seen in either light.

Shahkulu101
12-04-2014, 05:40 PM
Yeah it's definitely not a 'for sure' confirmation but it could certainly be interpreted that way.

SixKeys
12-04-2014, 08:14 PM
No, I like the new approach. All the games were starting to follow a predictable pattern.

Assassin: "I had to kill you, because you're evil."
Templar: "You're wrong! I'm not evil and here's a lengthy soliloquy explaining why!"
Assassin: "I see your point, but you're still wrong and here's a lengthy rebuttal."

Unity may not have handled the post-assassination cut scenes in the best possible way, but it was a step in the right direction. Would have liked to see more examples like LaTouche, where it showed you a sympathetic side without doing too much explaining. Show, don't tell.

Xstantin
12-04-2014, 08:28 PM
I really liked the final one in Unity. Maybe they could do better with some of them but it was nice that Arno gets only a trace/some clue instead of "I did this because -" (iirc in earlier games Vieri was the only one who simply refused to properly explain through confession).

AssassinHMS
12-04-2014, 08:44 PM
I think I said this before but I’d prefer if target confessions/white room moments became a reward for those who manage to kill the target in a secluded area without being detected.
This would reward stealth and strategy while also preventing those immersion breaking moments where the Assassin is surrounded by guards but still finds time to talk to the target. In turn, this would also mean that these conversations would not be essential to the story progression but simply a bonus.





No, I like the new approach. All the games were starting to follow a predictable pattern.

Assassin: "I had to kill you, because you're evil."
Templar: "You're wrong! I'm not evil and here's a lengthy soliloquy explaining why!"
Assassin: "I see your point, but you're still wrong and here's a lengthy rebuttal."
True, but I think that has to do with the Assassin’s personality/disposition.
He could say something like: “I don’t really care what you have to say. Your death benefits me. That’s all.” Of course this would suit a more selfish/down to earth Assassin.
Another example: “Enough talk! Your words can’t corrupt me.” Which would fit a more naïve person who blindly believes in the creed or who is afraid to question the side he/she fought for so long.

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2014, 08:51 PM
You know, as much I have mounted a campaign of denunciation against UNITY, these telepathic flashbacks are touches that I actually like in the game.


Where does it state this? I thought the Father of Understanding was an idea, not an entity.

Germain at the end talks to Arno in that telepathic commune and explains that the conversation is taking place in what used to be called the "astral plane" beyond time and space. The implication is that all the earlier telepathic conversations were of a similar nature. Not really happening but somehow a commune between killer and victim in the mind.


Yeah, but he's the only one. The rest come off as just complete jerks. The White Room kinda forced the writers to give them a defence for their actions. Now that it's just a sort of glimpse of what's been said, they're not forced to defend the bad guys. If they started making it all about their reasons for doing what they do, I'd be fine with it staying the way it is, but so far, it's not about that, so it doesn't work as well as the White Room used to.

Well, in the writers defense, on this particular thing, the White Room conversations get cliche after a while. The formula is basically,

Templar: You kill me Assassin. But you are not so good and I'm not so bad. Let me spend my final moments in self-justification before I die.
Assassin: Take your time.

I mean I liked it and it was a great way of humanizing the targets but the new approach opens possibilities and they can improve and modify it well, so that it's not just used for exposition of a banal mystery like in UNITY(where we end up seeing the same scene from four different perspectives for no real reason). It also humanized the Templars because it showed you who they were once. Like one of them was a simple soldier who wanted to shake Mirabeau's hands, and the great orator basically shooed him off, another was a really honest bureaucrat once. And it's also really surprising in contrast, when done right.
Like you fight Pierre Bellec and he is full of hatred and anger and then in his memories, you realize that guy loved you as his best friend's son and really did care for you, it makes it sadder.

xboxauditore
12-04-2014, 10:12 PM
They aren't in Unity? That's so strange, although as some have pointed out before, it's only a quick argument of I'm right you're wrong.

Plus, I've killed targets using headshots and neck stabs, hard to imagine they could talk after that haha

MakimotoJin
12-04-2014, 10:15 PM
In AC1 it was to show that the Templars had no regrets,right?Altair also put the victim's blood in a feather when in the white room,to show he's dead.

SixKeys
12-04-2014, 10:25 PM
I think I said this before but I’d prefer if target confessions/white room moments became a reward for those who manage to kill the target in a secluded area without being detected.
This would reward stealth and strategy while also preventing those immersion breaking moments where the Assassin is surrounded by guards but still finds time to talk to the target. In turn, this would also mean that these conversations would not be essential to the story progression but simply a bonus.

Doesn't sound like a good enough bonus to be worth it, TBH.



True, but I think that has to do with the Assassin’s personality/disposition.
He could say something like: “I don’t really care what you have to say. Your death benefits me. That’s all.” Of course this would suit a more selfish/down to earth Assassin.
Another example: “Enough talk! Your words can’t corrupt me.” Which would fit a more naïve person who blindly believes in the creed or who is afraid to question the side he/she fought for so long.

Yeah, but it's still essentially the same thing game after game. You'll always end with an assassin whose argument boils down to "yeah, but still". I want an assassin who actually starts to have doubts about his own convictions based on what he learns. Altaïr was too stubborn to admit to his targets that they had a point (though he would silently reflect upon their words). We need more missions like the Tarik assassination in ACR where the assassin is just flat-out wrong and is horrified to find out they made a mistake.

Hans684
12-04-2014, 10:28 PM
Why not mix the two like at the end of Unity? We see they're part of the plot while they tell they case. Character development and clears more of the story.

ACfan443
12-04-2014, 10:29 PM
I know Infamous Second Son is regularly brought up whenever there's discussion about the flashbacks, but the game honestly did do them really well which is why I was assured that the departure from the White Room wouldn't hurt character development


http://youtu.be/PM2xSa0WtYg
8:52

ISS's soliloquies were lengthy and accompanied by some great imagery. If all of Unity's flashbacks were like a cross between these and the final flashback with Germain, then I wouldn't miss the corridor speeches at all. The concept is great but Unity didn't pull it off all that well.

SixKeys
12-04-2014, 10:47 PM
Why not mix the two like at the end of Unity? We see they're part of the plot while they tell they case. Character development and clears more of the story.

Germain's stood out precisely because it was so different from the rest. He and Arno seemed to have similar powers which is why they were able to communicate even after death. All the others were just regular humans with no special powers. The white room speeches have always been pretty absurd. I didn't have a problem with them, but I welcome the change if only because they're going for a fresh approach. The back-and-forth "You're wrong! -No, you're wrong!" was getting a bit old.

Shahkulu101
12-04-2014, 10:51 PM
Honestly I'd love it if each new protagonist had their own unique way of interacting with assassinated targets.

rrebe
12-04-2014, 10:53 PM
Why not mix the two like at the end of Unity? We see they're part of the plot while they tell they case. Character development and clears more of the story.

I haven't seen the end of Unity yet but I like the idea of having both of them.


Honestly I'd love it if each new protagonist had their own unique way of interacting with assassinated targets.

That'd be cool too!

AssassinHMS
12-05-2014, 12:16 AM
Doesn't sound like a good enough bonus to be worth it, TBH.
Well, I guess that depends. They're a good bonus if the story is more like AC1’s, where these moments offer the most insight on the Assassin’s personality and motivation(s). If however, the story already explores the Assassin’s personal story leaving almost no mystery about the person under the hood (like AC2’s and beyond) then these moments are indeed kind of pointless and not that really much of a reward. These moments only make sense to exist if the character is a mystery to the player, otherwise they’re just pointless chip chat.




Yeah, but it's still essentially the same thing game after game. You'll always end with an assassin whose argument boils down to "yeah, but still". I want an assassin who actually starts to have doubts about his own convictions based on what he learns. Altaïr was too stubborn to admit to his targets that they had a point (though he would silently reflect upon their words). We need more missions like the Tarik assassination in ACR where the assassin is just flat-out wrong and is horrified to find out they made a mistake.

Not necessarily. Let’s say you don’t know why the protagonist joined the Assassins, you have no clue what his motivations are or what he is trying to accomplish.
So, these conversations with the targets will expose the Assassin’s point of view allowing you to understand his mindset bit by bit.
According to the first example I gave, the Assassin would be selfish and practical.
In some white room discussions, he wouldn’t argue with the target, he wouldn’t even listen. As soon as they started blabbing, he would interrupt them, finish them with the hidden blade and leave.
Eventually he would reply that he didn’t care who’s “right” and who’s “wrong” before ending the discussion.
By the end, you would understand that the Assassins were nothing more than a means to an end to him. He did not care about their philosophies and was simply using them for his own personal gain.

This could also change as, perhaps, he would start listening to the targets and gaining some interest in the philosophical side of the conflict as a result of some important event that made him second-guess/regret his choices (like Ezio and Tarik or Shay and the whole incident).


So, these discussions’ purpose wouldn’t be to show the “greyness” of the conflict but rather to understand what is going on the protagonist’s mind by observing the way he reacts in these key moments. Which, by the way, would be a good reward imo.

DeanOMiite
12-05-2014, 12:22 AM
The white rooms boil down to just exposition, and I think exposition is lazy, so I'm against this. The entire plot of AC1 played out this way (not just with white rooms, but also in the assassin bureaus and with All Mualim) and the game!e suffered for it.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 12:29 AM
I know Infamous Second Son is regularly brought up whenever there's discussion about the flashbacks, but the game honestly did do them really well which is why I was assured that the departure from the White Room wouldn't hurt character development


http://youtu.be/PM2xSa0WtYg
8:52

ISS's soliloquies were lengthy and accompanied by some great imagery. If all of Unity's flashbacks were like a cross between these and the final flashback with Germain, then I wouldn't miss the corridor speeches at all. The concept is great but Unity didn't pull it off all that well.

I gotta admit, if Victory incorporated something like this for Templar deaths, I would welcome it. :)

Though the seeing through memories thing is still weird and unexplained.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 12:36 AM
Nah, I'm all for Unity's memories. It added a lot of depth to the whole ''conspiracy'' concept and background. I really, really want it to return in Victory, if just to enhance the mysterious conspiracy vibe.

Altair1789
12-05-2014, 12:45 AM
If they at LEAST explained Arno's abilities... I'd really like animus corridor and the white room speeches back

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 12:50 AM
Nah, I'm all for Unity's memories. It added a lot of depth to the whole ''conspiracy'' concept and background. I really, really want it to return in Victory, if just to enhance the mysterious conspiracy vibe.

Yeah, but can it be less cartoon-ish this time?

And they explained how in the hell they can read through memories?

Or maybe something like what ACfan brought up.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 12:55 AM
Yeah, but can it be less cartoon-ish this time?

And they explained how in the hell they can read through memories?

Or maybe something like what ACfan brought up.

I can't find ACfan's post.

Anyway, I'm all for it. Less cartoony (AHAHAHA), more explanation, etc, etc. I would just hate to see it go in Victorian London. In the next generation, possibly in Asia, sure.

azeezmj
12-05-2014, 12:57 AM
I really disliked the white rooms, I thought it was somehow cheesy and embarrassing (IMO). however i totally loved the new (memories), it kind of reminds me of Sherlock holmes's movies, also the gaze arno makes before every assassination mission finding the weaknesses, it was just amazing. i really hope ubisoft forgets the white room and continue with the new style that unity made. I can't be the only one that loved everything about Unity, can i ? :D

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 12:59 AM
I can't find ACfan's post.

Anyway, I'm all for it. Less cartoony (AHAHAHA), more explanation, etc, etc. I would just hate to see it go in Victorian London. In the next generation, possibly in Asia, sure.

It's on page 3.

He brings up infamous second son and how they handled a character's past, conflicts, and thoughts.

Yeah...Asia. :rolleyes:

GoldenBoy9999
12-05-2014, 01:07 AM
I like the new style better than the white rooms, so no. I just want an explanation as to why Arno and possibly others can do it though.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 01:10 AM
It's on page 3.

He brings up infamous second son and how they handled a character's past, conflicts, and thoughts.

Yeah...Asia. :rolleyes:

Wow, how could I miss that!?

I agree with his post. They just need to be executed better. I have no doubt that it'll improve in Victory. I mean, the white rooms in AC:1 was good but long and pretentious, AC2/B/R were shorter but held less meaning, and AC:3/AC:IV/RO were the accumulation making them awesome. Practice is all I'm saying.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 01:15 AM
Wow, how could I miss that!?

I agree with his post. They just need to be executed better. I have no doubt that it'll improve in Victory. I mean, the white rooms in AC:1 was good but long and pretentious, AC2/B/R were shorter but held less meaning, and AC:3/AC:IV/RO were the accumulation making them awesome. Practice is all I'm saying.

Yeah, finding that balance in the speeches with some detailed scenes of the person's life would be great... ^^

KPRage
12-05-2014, 04:28 AM
If they at LEAST explained Arno's abilities... I'd really like animus corridor and the white room speeches back

Yes, yes, yes. That is what ACU was missing: a proper explanation for the abilities that Arno has. A training montage or even a mission would have been better.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 04:35 AM
Yes, yes, yes. That is what ACU was missing: a proper explanation for the abilities that Arno has. A training montage or even a mission would have been better.

This is kind of what every AC is missing.

I-Like-Pie45
12-05-2014, 04:42 AM
if they are like ac2 white room, then no

Templar: Oh no Ezio I am the deded
Ezio: Yes you are I have killed you! You are so bad guy I am so good guy Assassin good Templar bad
Templar: Ezio here is some information related to next person you are going to be killing
Ezio: Requiescat in Pace which I am saying because my Uncle Mario told me to

MakimotoJin
12-05-2014, 04:49 AM
if they are like ac2 white room, then no

Templar: Oh no Ezio I am the deded
Ezio: Yes you are I have killed you! You are so bad guy I am so good guy Assassin good Templar bad
Templar: Ezio here is some information related to next person you are going to be killing
Ezio: Requiescat in Pace which I am saying because my Uncle Mario told me to

Exactly.Other than that guy who killed Ezio's family.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 05:06 AM
In AC2, I thought Ulberto was a good start...

"You'd had done the same to protect the ones you love."

It was short, but very reflective of Ezio and the Assassins which got me like: "Okay, not bad."

After that? >__>

D.I.D.
12-05-2014, 05:25 AM
I agree that there ought to be an explanation about Arno's senses for the new players, but I'm surprised so many people find it confusing if they played the old games. I thought it was the same as the explanation for Eagle Vision, super-strength, and everything else - the old "high concentration of first civ DNA" thing that all the converts are meant to have.

SixKeys
12-05-2014, 09:45 AM
In AC2, I thought Ulberto was a good start...

"You'd had done the same to protect the ones you love."

It was short, but very reflective of Ezio and the Assassins which got me like: "Okay, not bad."

After that? >__>

My favorite AC2 white room "speech" was Vieri's.

"I'm sorry, were you hoping for a confession?"

And the resulting meltdown from Ezio before Mario steps in. It was such a good, tongue-in-cheek contrast to AC1's lengthy, philosophical speeches. No big Bond-villain-explaining-his-master-plan moment. Vieri was basically like "eff you, I ain't tellin' you nothing". Then the next speeches kinda went in the opposite direction again.


I don't see why we need an in-depth explanation of Arno's powers. The sixth sense (aka Eagle Vision/Sense) is basically just knowledge. Like how Desmond was able to "absorb" the right combination to a keypad by looking at it. We already know the basics of it, First Civ DNA. No need to go all midichlorians on AC and explain away every mysterious detail. I absolutely loved the way Arno's abilities were portrayed in this game.

Farlander1991
12-05-2014, 10:49 AM
Wait, let me get this straight... we've had this abstract non-descript communication with victim power for 7 years, which was never explained or fleshed out or even had consistency (i.e. it's never clear if it's happening in real-time or in a flash of a second, because there's evidences of both in different games), which for the most part people were absolutely fine with, but change it to another abstract non-descript communication with victim power, and suddenly there's tons of problems? O_o

(PS. Speaking of white room speeches, the best ones are in ACIV. They're short, poignant, to the point, yet manage to tell a lot about characters, Edward, and help with his progression... I do love AC1 and AC3 speeches as well, though)

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 11:20 AM
^ Rogue has some of the best white room speeches, as well.

dxsxhxcx
12-05-2014, 11:35 AM
Wait, let me get this straight... we've had this abstract non-descript communication with victim power for 7 years, which was never explained or fleshed out or even had consistency (i.e. it's never clear if it's happening in real-time or in a flash of a second, because there's evidences of both in different games), which for the most part people were absolutely fine with, but change it to another abstract non-descript communication with victim power, and suddenly there's tons of problems? O_o

(PS. Speaking of white room speeches, the best ones are in ACIV. They're short, poignant, to the point, yet manage to tell a lot about characters, Edward, and help with his progression... I do love AC1 and AC3 speeches as well, though)


between the two I still prefer the white rooms, unrealistic as they may be, at least they aren't cheesy...

Hans684
12-05-2014, 01:19 PM
Germain's stood out precisely because it was so different from the rest. He and Arno seemed to have similar powers which is why they were able to communicate even after death. All the others were just regular humans with no special powers. The white room speeches have always been pretty absurd. I didn't have a problem with them, but I welcome the change if only because they're going for a fresh approach. The back-and-forth "You're wrong! -No, you're wrong!" was getting a bit old.

Germain said something about that The Father Of Understanding allowed them to discuss, he was dead on the floor and Arno killed him. So what they need to explain more is this Father Of Understanding. Judging by this it applies to the white rooms as well, it could explain how we can have those discussions while having an army around us.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 01:41 PM
Germain said something about that The Father Of Understanding allowed them to discuss, he was dead on the floor and Arno killed him. So what they need to explain more is this Father Of Understanding. Judging by this it applies to the white rooms as well, it could explain how we can have those discussions while having an army around us.

It could already be in the Assassins mind just as we kill them...like they're linked?

But yeah, I'm still rather have white room over the Memory scenes unless the latter gets better.

Hans684
12-05-2014, 01:52 PM
It could already be in the Assassins mind just as we kill them...like they're linked?

Don't think is exactly like that, while they may be linked in a way. It just seems like the discussions and visions is the work of this Father Of Understanding. He allows visions of dead people and discussions with them(white room and Unity's discussion at the end).


But yeah, I'm still rather have white room over the Memory scenes unless the latter gets better.

Indeed but both together like in Unity is something I prefer the most.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 02:29 PM
Don't think is exactly like that, while they may be linked in a way. It just seems like the discussions and visions is the work of this Father Of Understanding. He allows visions of dead people and discussions with them(white room and Unity's discussion at the end).

Well hopefully this "Father of Understanding" entity is really just a First Civ member or something. :rolleyes:

Maybe he/she/it controls over death or something...?



Indeed but both together like in Unity is something I prefer the most.

Agreed. ^^

king-hailz
12-05-2014, 04:20 PM
Actually your right it should be like germaine at the end! You get both! Do it like that!

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 04:25 PM
actually your right it should be like germaine at the end! You get both! Do it like that!

Yes, please! But also shorter.

king-hailz
12-05-2014, 04:28 PM
Yes, please! But also shorter.

Yeah... It was nice with unity a lil that it was like a murder mystery... actually the whole story was kinda a murder mystery... just like revelations was basically just the assassin keys that we got in AC2 and the romulus keys we got in ACB... hmm amancio what's going on!

Journey93
12-05-2014, 04:55 PM
hell yeah I hated how Unity handeled things
disappointed that so many people are against them

Hans684
12-05-2014, 04:58 PM
Well hopefully this "Father of Understanding" entity is really just a First Civ member or something. :rolleyes:

Most likely, Templars don't believe religions so it has to be something like that.


Maybe he/she/it controls over death or something...?

Looks like it, there defiantly is something First Civ. related thing/person involved.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 05:02 PM
Most likely, Templars don't believe religions so it has to be something like that.

Really? That's a relief...

I almost threw up with the way Germain kept referring to the Father of Understanding in the memory corridor. Ugh.

RzaRecta357
12-05-2014, 05:43 PM
Arno has an in game reason for seeing their thoughts as he mentions it to the council at some point.

I'm just thinking none of the others had much to say and when one did we got an even better version of the death conversation. Enjoy it.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 05:54 PM
Looking back, Connor sorta had it anytime he would trace someone...

When he finally got all the clues, a cutscene would show what happened.


Now I don't know if this is a canon ability of his, or just a normal cutscene showing us what happened.

Fatal-Feit
12-05-2014, 05:58 PM
Looking back, Connor sorta had it anytime he would trace someone...

When he finally got all the clues, a cutscene would show what happened.


Now I don't know if this is a canon ability of his, or just a normal cutscene showing us what happened.

Interesting... So did Ezio with his Eagle Sense in Revelations. Perhaps Arno can view complete memories because his EV is an evolved version? :p

MakimotoJin
12-05-2014, 08:59 PM
Interesting... So did Ezio with his Eagle Sense in Revelations. Perhaps Arno can view complete memories because his EV is an evolved version? :p

Shay can see close stalkers and gang leaders.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 09:11 PM
Shay can see close stalkers and gang leaders.

That's eagle vision...

Anyone can have that. :rolleyes:


Interesting... So did Ezio with his Eagle Sense in Revelations. Perhaps Arno can view complete memories because his EV is an evolved version? :p

That's interesting, but what makes Arno so special that the others couldn't do it, but he can?

He's human just like them.

That is unless each Assassin has their own form of Eagle vision?

- Ezio could see people in his eagle sense.
- Connor can retrace someone's movements days/weeks beforehand.
- Edward could highlight people.
- Arno can view complete memories.

MakimotoJin
12-05-2014, 09:14 PM
That's eagle vision...

Anyone can have that.

Well,aren't you guys saying that people can have different types of eagle vision?

Xstantin
12-05-2014, 09:15 PM
Well,aren't you guys saying that people can have different types of eagle vision?

Only Ezio

MakimotoJin
12-05-2014, 09:18 PM
Only Ezio

Well,Edward can tag people and see them through walls,Arno can see enemies through walls without tagging them,and Shay can see the direction of Assassins,unlike Ezio,right?

Altair1789
12-05-2014, 09:21 PM
Well,aren't you guys saying that people can have different types of eagle vision?

Shay hears whispers, which is what makes his unique (or at least I'm pretty sure he does)

Xstantin
12-05-2014, 09:25 PM
@Makimoto,
I wasn't serious - but Eagle vision "rules" are very confusing at times. The way it works changes with each game iirc Ezio's sense from Revelations was supposed to be the most "evolved" one. Then again they revamped in later games for different mechanics. Arno's one is supposed to be less precise according to some interview cause he had less training or something like that.
EDIT: Altair1789's post above - there were whispers for stalkers in ACRev.

MakimotoJin
12-05-2014, 09:31 PM
Yeah I don't get it either.Funny thing though,Shay only hears whispers and "gets" the compass after he's.....ahm,betrayed.

Altair1789
12-05-2014, 09:35 PM
Altair1789's post above - there were whispers for stalkers in ACRev.

Good point, wasn't thinking of that

SixKeys
12-05-2014, 11:19 PM
Really? That's a relief...

I almost threw up with the way Germain kept referring to the Father of Understanding in the memory corridor. Ugh.

I had a hard time even understanding Germain as he was really mumbling his lines a lot (I always play without subtitles). He was like Marlon Brando in Godfather. I guess it's a good thing I missed some stuff? :p I figured the Father of Understanding thing was symbolic somehow, I really hope so anyway.

Namikaze_17
12-05-2014, 11:23 PM
I had a hard time even understanding Germain as he was really mumbling his lines a lot (I always play without subtitles). He was like Marlon Brando in Godfather. I guess it's a good thing I missed some stuff? :p I figured the Father of Understanding thing was symbolic somehow, I really hope so anyway.

Kinda makes me wonder if this "Father of Understanding" is something real that the Templars are oblivious too.

Maybe not...but still. How we're able to talk to each target after killing them is most times strange/unrealistic given the way we do it...could that be the "Father of Understanding" too?

Or maybe I'm just over-thinking it. :rolleyes:

SixKeys
12-05-2014, 11:34 PM
Kinda makes me wonder if this "Father of Understanding" is something real that the Templars are oblivious too.

Maybe not...but still. How we're able to talk to each target after killing them is most times strange/unrealistic given the way we do it...could that be the "Father of Understanding" too?

Or maybe I'm just over-thinking it. :rolleyes:

They better freaking not go down that route. That would be beyond ridiculous and would be the final nail in the coffin of the First Civ narrative.

Hans684
12-05-2014, 11:44 PM
They better freaking not go down that route. That would be beyond ridiculous and would be the final nail in the coffin of the First Civ narrative.

May the Father Of Understanding guide you.

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 12:01 AM
They better freaking not go down that route. That would be beyond ridiculous and would be the final nail in the coffin of the First Civ narrative.

I don't want that either, but it's always fun to speculate. :rolleyes:


May the Father Of Understanding guide you.

Han, I now grant you the rank of Grandmaster like myself. :cool:

May the Father of Understanding guide us...

D.I.D.
12-06-2014, 02:16 AM
I had a hard time even understanding Germain as he was really mumbling his lines a lot (I always play without subtitles). He was like Marlon Brando in Godfather. I guess it's a good thing I missed some stuff? :p I figured the Father of Understanding thing was symbolic somehow, I really hope so anyway.

I think people are reading too much into this. Maybe it's another male TWCB who predicted the Templars, and left messages for them that some of them have seen at artifact sites, and the legends of these visions have become a religion (much as the Ezio games said that the ancient Roman gods were the result of message echoes from Juno, Minerva and the rest).

It could also be a way to retain the warrior monk image of the real Knights Templar, and keep them religious while also acknowledging that Christian culture betrayed both the real and the fictional Templars. It would make sense for the fictional Templars to continue to exist along with a belief framework based upon the one they followed, but tailored to their new reality. I think that's a good thing for the narrative, if so. Even though there's an argument for saying that a significant number of the Templars might have been cynical opportunists,that doesn't mean they'd simply be like a modern private paramilitary force. The sign of the cross may have been a ticket for some to operate under the Church's approval, but you'd have to guess on balance that their beliefs were sincere in the majority. Templars without religion aren't really Templars at all, so if they are to continue to exist as a fiction then they need a spiritual side.

Nothing Germain says matters at all. We see him saying what we'd expect him to say based on his beliefs, but some people are taking it very literally and thinking that Ubisoft are telling us explicitly that there's a god who powers all of these visions. I don't think they are.

SixKeys
12-06-2014, 03:45 AM
The sign of the cross may have been a ticket for some to operate under the Church's approval, but you'd have to guess on balance that their beliefs were sincere in the majority. Templars without religion aren't really Templars at all, so if they are to continue to exist as a fiction then they need a spiritual side.


I disagree with this. Maybe back in the Crusades Templars did have sincere beliefs, but the more scientific discoveries they made about TWCB, the more disillusioned they became with religion.

I-Like-Pie45
12-06-2014, 03:55 AM
What if in the future if the trend of open-ended assassinations continues

what you get depends on how you assassinate them

If you assassinate your target in a manner that would render them unable to speak like shooting them in the head, you get memory vampires. Assassinate them like with a good 'ol stab, you get the White Room.

SixKeys
12-06-2014, 04:37 AM
What if in the future if the trend of open-ended assassinations continues

what you get depends on how you assassinate them

If you assassinate your target in a manner that would render them unable to speak like shooting them in the head, you get memory vampires. Assassinate them like with a good 'ol stab, you get the White Room.

Too much work to put together two different kinds of scenes (one flashback and one with dialogue).

The fact that assassinations now have to be performed with the hidden blade makes sense, since Unity established that Eagle Sense somehow absorbs memories through touch or sonic vibrations rather than vision alone. If the assassin could snipe his target from afar, it doesn't make sense for him to be able to psychically absorb memories.

D.I.D.
12-06-2014, 05:16 AM
I disagree with this. Maybe back in the Crusades Templars did have sincere beliefs, but the more scientific discoveries they made about TWCB, the more disillusioned they became with religion.

Yeah, that would have been a possibility too, and it might have made a good story element if they had that standpoint. What we've got since AC2 seems to be a split in approaches to religion, with a Muslim organisation changing to move outside of religion into a secular philosophy, and an ostensibly Christian one that started making seemingly solemn pledges to the Father figure. This game certainly manages to keep a lot of improbable things alive from generation to generation, but I think the Father Of Understanding thing is meant to be sincere.

I'm just surprised the assassins weren't as keen on preserving their smoking habits as they are about specific sewing patterns and pointy wrists. It seems like they kept everything except the bit about getting blazed while lying on massive pillows before and after kills, which was surely the fun part of the job.

Hans684
12-06-2014, 10:36 AM
Han, I now grant you the rank of Grandmaster like myself. :cool:

May the Father of Understanding guide us...

It's an honor.

May the Father Of Understanding guide us.

MakimotoJin
12-06-2014, 08:58 PM
Han, I now grant you the rank of Grandmaster like myself. :cool:

May the Father of Understanding guide us...

What 'bout me?I wanna be a Templar....=/

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 09:57 PM
What 'bout me?I wanna be a Templar....=/

You must rise in our ranks, Maki.

You're almost there, though. ;)

MakimotoJin
12-06-2014, 10:00 PM
I could kill anyone if you want to.

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 10:10 PM
I could kill anyone if you want to.

We only kill people only if necessary...

We aren't like those...Assassins. -__-

MakimotoJin
12-06-2014, 10:13 PM
We only kill people only if necessary...

We aren't like those...Assassins. -__-

I could look for a PoE.According to Altair's Codex,there's one at the city I live in.
And I'm serious.

rrebe
12-06-2014, 10:14 PM
I knew it! I knew there was a secret Templar club among us :eek: *pulls back into the shadows*

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 10:19 PM
I knew it! I knew there was a secret Templar club among us :eek: *pulls back into the shadows*

Yep, only specific members are among us. ^^

We will have our new world...you cannot stop us. :rolleyes:

rrebe
12-06-2014, 10:30 PM
Yep, only specific members are among us. ^^

We will have our new world...you cannot stop us. :rolleyes:

I'm of a neutral party, hiding in shadows, taking notes. And I have a lot of notes..

Or maybe I don't. Who knows.. :rolleyes:



Too much work to put together two different kinds of scenes (one flashback and one with dialogue).

The fact that assassinations now have to be performed with the hidden blade makes sense, since Unity established that Eagle Sense somehow absorbs memories through touch or sonic vibrations rather than vision alone. If the assassin could snipe his target from afar, it doesn't make sense for him to be able to psychically absorb memories.

I never actually thought of that, the hidden blade only assassination makes so much more sense now :eek:

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 10:38 PM
I'm of a neutral party, hiding in shadows, taking notes. And I have a lot of notes..

Or maybe I don't. Who knows.. :rolleyes:

Initiate...I'll make sure Mayrice hunts you down. :rolleyes:

rrebe
12-06-2014, 11:02 PM
Initiate...I'll make sure Mayrice hunts you down. :rolleyes:

She may try.. :rolleyes:

GoldenBoy9999
12-06-2014, 11:31 PM
I never actually thought of that, the hidden blade only assassination makes so much more sense now :eek:

That's what I figured it was for. It solves the problem of having white room moments when your target has been eaten by a crocodile or something like that.


You must rise in our ranks, Maki.

You're almost there, though. ;)

Blasphemy! Seems there aren't many Assassins around here these days. Perhaps I should seek them out...

MakimotoJin
12-06-2014, 11:39 PM
Blasphemy! Seems there aren't many Assassins around here these days. Perhaps I should seek them out...

Unless we do something about them...

rrebe
12-06-2014, 11:39 PM
That's what I figured it was for. It solves the problem of having white room moments when your target has been eaten by a crocodile or something like that.


Ah, yes. That would be awkward. :rolleyes:



Blasphemy! Seems there aren't many Assassins around here these days. Perhaps I should seek them out...

I shall have my eyes and ears open.. :rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
12-06-2014, 11:44 PM
Blasphemy! Seems there aren't many Assassins around here these days. Perhaps I should seek them out...

Unless we do something about them...

Golden & Maki, I task you with finding and eliminating any Assassin/initiate influence in this forum.

If you both succeed, I shall consider rising your rank.

May the Father of Understanding guide you... :rolleyes: