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flyingskid2
04-30-2004, 01:20 PM
How do I fight a Pony when I'm in the Dora co-altitude?

Head-on pass: I know the pony is going to turn better so should I just extend after the pass?

Pony appears in rear quarter: The dora can't really run away from the pony because it might be faster with boost at certain altitudes but you can't run boost too long without overheating. With the pony in the rear quarter am I basically doomed since there's also no way I can reverse positions because the Pony is more maneuverable. What should I do?

flyingskid2
04-30-2004, 01:20 PM
How do I fight a Pony when I'm in the Dora co-altitude?

Head-on pass: I know the pony is going to turn better so should I just extend after the pass?

Pony appears in rear quarter: The dora can't really run away from the pony because it might be faster with boost at certain altitudes but you can't run boost too long without overheating. With the pony in the rear quarter am I basically doomed since there's also no way I can reverse positions because the Pony is more maneuverable. What should I do?

TheKetamineKid
04-30-2004, 01:23 PM
You need help to answer this? You could shoot the P51 down in a stuka if u tried hard enough.

"Full real? How can you call it full real when you're still using auto-pitch on that 109...now grt your coat and p**s off back to Crimson Skies!"

JG7_Rall
04-30-2004, 01:25 PM
Energy fight it. You don't turn as well but boy does that Dora have engine power. It also hangs by its prop very well.

After the head on, turn the same way he's turning (meaning if he breaks left, turn left) but VERY slowly and climb-use your energy in the climb, not the turn. The turn will force him to bleed off more energy because he'll have to continue his turn for a longer duration while the climb starts to build your altitude advantage. Altitude=Potential Energy=Energy advantage.

Continue to do this until he finally completes his turn and is right on your a$$. At this point, he's about to fire, but you start climbing almost vertically (use flaps if you have to). The pony will try to bring his guns to bear, but because you've got the alt and energy advantage, he'll stall out. This is your chance-Give it full power, retract any flaps you've got, and zoom down on him. He's out of E while you've just traded your potential energy for kinetic energy so he wont be able to avoid your fire very well, and you'll be right on his six. If you miss on the first pass or don't down him, keep booming and zooming until you get him. Keep an eye on your E though, if he's good, he'll get you to bleed it off.

S! Hope I helped

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

JG7_Rall
04-30-2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheKetamineKid:
You need help to answer this? You could shoot the P51 down in a stuka if u tried hard enough.

"Full real? How can you call it full real when you're still using auto-pitch on that 109...now grt your coat and p**s off back to Crimson Skies!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you realize that this is because most Mustang pilots over estimate their airplane and don't know they've made a mistake until it's too late. The P-51 is an excellent aircraft.

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

flyingskid2
04-30-2004, 01:54 PM
Thanks Rall, how about if the pony is coming from the rear quarter. I can't just climb because he will be able to follow me (because he didn't have to do a 180 degree turn first).

BaldieJr
04-30-2004, 02:26 PM
Force an overshoot.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Specs:
More expensive than the dining set.
Less expensive than the couch.
Smaller than the dishwasher.
Just as noisy as the refridgerator.
Faster than the cars' computer.
Less practical than the car.
Face it, people who put thier computer specs in thier signature are pretty ****ing wierd.

</pre>

JG7_Rall
04-30-2004, 02:29 PM
If he's opening fire, just jink. The doras got a beastly role rate so use that to your advantage. The roll rate is the single most important aspect of this plane. You can out-scissors anything. Be sure to use this maneuver and then use your great acceleration to follow him after the overshoot.

If you can't seem to get him off or the scissors aren't appropraite, just corkscrew around and do slips. Also, the negative knife works great. Roll so your wings are perpendicular to the horizon and push down on the stick. It makes it look like you're turning but you are really flying strait. This will throw off their aiming and, if the persuer rolls to counter this, is perfect for a break-away (esp. because of the Mustang's relitively slow roll rate). From here your options are multiple and if you play your cards right you can end up on the offensive.

What I normally do is if I'm at a good alt. (around 3000m) and he's closing in, right when he's about to fire, I dive strait down. He'll follow of course, but as your speed gets WAY up and you get close the the ground, pull up HARD. You'll black out, but with 2.0 version, he'll blow up. If this is fixed, the Mustang will black out with you. All it really does is help you stay alive, and maybe a friendly will pick him off or you can make it over base where AAA will shoot out his engine.

If you go into the dive and you gain a good amount of seperation, do a lag turn. That is, choose a spot behind him and turn hard towards it. He can either try to follow you in the turn (in this case he'll lose sight of you and still overshoot) or he'll wait for you to come by him and shoot you head on. Trick is to turn hard enough so he can't turn with you while keeping you in sight but not turn too hard so that he can go head on. He'll realize his mistake after you pass right by him and from here, just energy fight him. Do climbing turns as well as he closes on you, the mustangs don't do well with those.

Hope I helped, S!

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

BuzzU
04-30-2004, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheKetamineKid:
You need help to answer this? You could shoot the P51 down in a stuka if u tried hard enough.

"Full real? How can you call it full real when you're still using auto-pitch on that 109...now grt your coat and p**s off back to Crimson Skies!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jump in your Stuka. Where do you want to meet?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

LuftLuver
04-30-2004, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Jump in your Stuka. Where do you want to meet?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got next. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

β"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Ά
"All your bases are belong to us."

Zen--
04-30-2004, 03:48 PM
Evasion tactics will depend on his relative E advantage over you and his closure rate. Just like in Jiu-Jitsu where you attempt to use the opponents momentum against him, so it is the same while E fighting another aircraft.

Against a fast moving bandit the negative knife will work extremely well if done at the proper time because the mustang, like any plane, will have very little time to correct for it before his closure rate makes him zoom by you. Proper timing is generally based on when you think the pilot is going to open fire on you, but for MG only fighters like the mustang I'd say .4 to .5 might be a good distance, especially if they are coming in really fast. There is always an element of risk when being attacked and the negative knife will not save you 100% of the time ofcourse, but it does help shift the odds in your favor. Every little bit helps.

Whenever you are attacked by another plane, you have to keep the long battle in mind and decide pretty quick what your intentions are with this bandit, but first things first -- you have to survive the first pass.

The negative knife is a good move for that against BnZ because it doesn't throw away a lot of energy like a break turn does...and that energy might be important to you later on as you fight the long battle. (assuming you intend to defeat the mustang by turning the tables rather than just evading altogether. I enjoy a challenge, so I tend to try and break his advantage to watch HIM sweat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

If you have survived the first pass, the rest of the fight depends on what he does after flying by...he may blow his E by trying to reverse back into you, he may be smart and keep on going up to loop over and come back down, etc etc....thats more variables than I care to post about at the moment, so......


Against a slow closure rate the negative knife will still work, but timing is trickier ofcourse because he has more time on his side to correct for it - and has a whole lot of ammo with a large spread, perfect for area fire against planes. Though the negative knife might not be the perfect defense here, the main point is to keep throwing his aim off while he closes in.



Two things might happen and defensive moves are based on what you want to happen next.



If you are going to try and really break his E and increase your overall defensive posture, you want to let him keep coming in at that slow closure rate, but manuever in a way that causes him to bleed E to the point where you begin to pull away from him. Not an easy task, but this is what is so cool about flying the Dora...it CAN be done.

A climbing spiral might work very well here, you hold a certain rate of climb and increase or decrease your horizontal turn rate until you see either the range or his aircraft size begin to show that he is maintaining the same range or is falling farther away. Thats an indication that you have achieved E advantage over him. If you can meet one of those conditions, you can either stay on par or actually pull away. During a climbing spiral you have to turn enough to keep his guns off you...and that is very tricky, but can be done without over pulling for E loss. Also I've found that 22-25m/s sustained climb rate works for me when doing the climbing spiral...the intent is to force the mustang to the limits of the plane and the pilot...not only does the mustang have to have the attributes to catch you, the pilot has to be steady enough to make them work.



If you are not so concerned with your overall E state and are willing to be more aggressive and take more chances, you can let the mustang continue his slow closure and attempt to bait him into a scissors. If well flown, you can turn the tables on him very quickly because for a lot of pilots it is a very disorienting manuever to be in and that alone can cause him to make mistakes that you can take advantage of.

Word of caution, if you pop combat flaps and pull a hard turn to get the scissors going and he doesn't bite -- you have just handed him some free E to use against you. It's possible to lose the fight right then and there if he is good and knows what he is doing.

(Side note...isn't that break turn what we 190 drivers see the Yaks do all the time? And what do the 190's usually do -- keep climbing and build that E advantage. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

On the other hand I personally like to live dangerously, so I tend to do things at random. I might pull for a scissors and take a chance, or I might play it very conservatively and try to slowly work that E out of the mustang so that I can get on top of him.


The difference between the two choices there are more than just all or nothing with the scissors...it has to do with your E state relative to the rest of the server as well. Trying to spiral climb to beat the mustang has the added bonus that your total E state is increasing, meaning that in a simple way you are getting higher and higher...that translates to fewer and fewer other planes being able jump in the higher you go. Overall it makes you safer little by little as you work on this one single mustang, which is generally a good style of fighting.

The scissors tactic is generally going to take you lower and lower to maintain E for the aggressive turns you need and this will lower your total E state relative to everyone else. while it is an exciting and invigorating contest to be sure, doing it takes you back down into the common altitudes where everyone else is at, meaning after you defeat the mustang you will be vulnerable to other fighters, whereas by climbing to defeat the mustang you will be less exposed overall.


So in summary, against a fast bandit you want to let him overshoot and then begin climb at your optimal rate as the long battle begins. Always watch your overheat and keep patience...if he has a very large E advantage, lower your power and open your radiator to cool off. You know the fight is going to be a long one, and maximum power will probably not last long enough to catch him, so take the patient method and keep the engine cool.

Against a bandit closing in more slowly, attempt to force him to bleed E while trying to conserve your own...the climbing spiral is good for this and you should generally take care to avoid large stick movements. With practice you will begin to see the finer points of what works and what doesn't.

And ofcourse, always the scissors, which is by far my favorite move in the Dora. It is not always the best move, but it is easily one of the most exciting things you can do in AEP, so for better or worse I recommend it. Nothing wrong with living on the edge in my book...sometimes you gamble and lose, but thats the way it goes. I love the scissors http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-

VW-IceFire
04-30-2004, 05:31 PM
Yeah, what Zen said!

Aside from all of that good advice is just one thing. The Dora is essentially the equal of the P-51 in my opinion. Both fast, moderately well armed, and very high performance aircraft. Have confidence in it and read what has been pointed out here...its a great fighter!

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TheGozr
04-30-2004, 06:00 PM
Zen your Opinion on the A9? I really like that plane and turn better than the D9.

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

BS87
04-30-2004, 06:48 PM
As a pony pilot, i can say thet i get very antsy and will look for any oportunity to run to friendlies or home if a Dora has e advantage, or a slight altitude advantage. Many times before i learned this, i had dora's tease and toy with me with a slight advantage. Then they got bored and introduced me to M.r 20mm

TheGozr
04-30-2004, 07:18 PM
Force the d9 go to the lowest altitude and make him do his scisors stuff . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Tight turn with him. Turn turn turn they'll OOOPPPSS! stall and crash if they don't get the sens to go eway and get altitude againhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

Zen--
04-30-2004, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
Zen your Opinion on the A9? I really like that plane and turn better than the D9.

-GOZR
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't fly the A9 much, haven't really done so since FB 1.1 actually. I like it alot, but the Dora (and now the Ta) has always held my attention more than any other plane, so I can't describe things in the A9 the way I can for the Dora, but I can say some general observations.

Main difference in tactics with the A9 is that you require a larger margin of E to be successful in compared to the Dora. The primary reason is the lower climb rate of the A9 doesn't let it grab E as well as the D9 does and in a climbing spiral this is obviously going to be a big deal.

Since I don't think that any 190 can actually outturn the mustang, even if the A9 can turn better than the D9, it still can't turn inside the mustang....but that may not be the end of the world either because that additional turning ability might even things up on the climbing spiral. I can't personally say, because I don't E fight an A9 the way that I do in the Dora, with the A9 I don't enjoy close in E fights, I prefer pure BnZ. I suppose it's possible to fight the two of them in the same way, just haven't tried yet.

Last time I checked the D9 could sustain 22-23m/s compared to about 20m/s for the A9 (Hunde can probably verify what the exact m/s for the A9 is). While it doesn't seem like thats a big deal, against a mustang it is.

I'm not so hot at reading the US climb gauges (doh!) so it's hard for me to give an exact figure on the mustangs climb rate, but I'd say from the amount that I've flown it it's almost the same or better as the D9. In any case it's so close that even 10-20kph makes a big difference in who will come out on top, so both planes have to fly right on the edge.

Against the A9, I think the mustang has both the climb and turn advantage, so when facing a mustang driver who is really really good, things are going to be dicey at best. The one thing that the 190's have over the mustang is roll rate though...don't forget about that when things get tight because the more chaotic and unpredictable things get (like during a scissors), the harder it gets for pilots and the more mistakes might be made.

I would say that in essence the same tactics are going to work for the A9 as well as the D9 keeping in mind a couple things:

Because of the slightly lower climb, it will take that much longer to work out of an E disadvantage against a not so great mustang driver...against a really good one it might mean the A9 pilot can not get out of trouble at all.

Secondly, even if absolute performance is not there and the A9 pilot really has no features better than the mustang and is outclassed in every way...it is still of the utmost importance to use E fighting tactics to the best of your ability. The fight is not over until you are actually destroyed, to give up before then is silly. By playing the E fighters game to the limit, you force the mustang pilot to work...he MUST fly to the limits or you, by your hopefully superior knowledge of the A9, will be able to evade him.



One thing I forgot to mention in the D9 post above is that you always have one option that should work against almost every plane in the game...diving to the deck and outrunning them with SL speed. At around 580-590kph, the Dora should be able to outrun almost everything there is, minus the La7 and perhaps the P63. You will probably lose the La in the dive as well because of their low breakup speed, so if all else fails and you simply must not get shot down, dive and run for it. I like to fight it out to the end myself, but I have used that in the past when needed and it works pretty well.

I don't think the A9 has the same top speed at SL, but I do know the F8 is almost as fast as the D9...in FB 1.22 I have outrun mustangs at SL in the F8, not sure if they can still do that in AEP, but the A9 ought to be close.



I'd say overall it's going to be tough for the A9 pilot against the mustang. With slightly lower climb rate a pure sustained climb will not carry you to safety, but yet the mustang can out turn the A9. Finding the line of climbing vs turning to force the mustang to bleed his E is much harder in the A9 but again it can be done. If all else fails either dive and run for it (but what fun is that?) or try to draw him in really close for a scissors. Appropriate use of the negative knife can sometimes cause the attacker to become careless trying to get the shot, that can be used also to force an overshoot if the mustang pilot is not careful. If you can get him to a very small rate of closure, you may be able to outfly him there in that tight little performance band and tip the E scale in your favor.

-Zen-

TheGozr
04-30-2004, 08:58 PM
The A9 as a better climbing they say on il2 views.
5000 m in 5.45 vs D9 4.800m in 5.8
5500 m speed is 700 km/h
SL speed varies i guess more like 595 vs 600

The performance are very close but it seams that the A9 take over the D9 and A9 over F8

F8 sl speed 535km /h and poor climb rate.

??
they is something i like about the A9 go figure.. Zen maybe try it again just to get a fresh view.
Or maybe lets do some tests on a server head to heads.
-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

[This message was edited by TheGozr on Fri April 30 2004 at 08:09 PM.]

JG7_Rall
04-30-2004, 09:18 PM
I'm not sure what the statistics say, but I've flown all the Focke Wulf's a lot and I'd say the D9 definatly has the edge over the A9 when it comes to E fighting. A9 is better for BnZ I think.

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

Fehler
04-30-2004, 10:47 PM
The A-5 is the best dogfighter of the bunch IMHO. Not as fast as some, but very nimble. When the 20mm's get fixed, watch out. I still get lots of kills in it now.

And PM negative knife tactics, you teach them pony drivers all our tricks and we will be out in the cold very fast! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

jenikovtaw
04-30-2004, 11:32 PM
Excellent tips, will try them tomorrow.

How do you guys judge when "he's about to fire" or "he's starting to turn" etc, when you play with cockpit on? I mean, he's behind you, granted you can see around your back, but not behind you!

Hunde_3.JG51
05-01-2004, 01:10 AM
Wish I had more time but real quick;

The D-9 is pretty much is superior to the A-9 in all but firepower. The A-9 can climb at 22/m sec. but only until about 2,000m, after that it falls of rapidly and begins to feel heavy. Still, if you start with a decent advantage, energy fighting the P-51 shouldn't be too difficult. Don't turn, come at him with gentle maneuvers and force him to evade, then break off and climb to increase your advantage. If you fight a Mustang in the A-9 with energy disadvantage split-s, dive, do whatever but try to even energy state somewhat while dragging him low. Down low you are faster than the P-51 and climb is fairly similar. Keep in mind that the 190A likes to climb at around 350-400km/h or so for best climb. Because you should have been high to begin with you can perform some quick half rolls, pulling out in varying directions as you descend, this can sometimes make your pursuer lose sight of you, or have to perform more severe maneuvers to get back in behind you but he will bleed energy and likey lose the advantage he started with. Turning the tables on a P-51 is difficult to impossible in the A-9 unless you can force him to lose sight of you and force a head-on. The best thing is to do as I said above and eliminate his energy advantage and use your superior speed down low to escape which isn't too difficult. From there find friendlies or see if he turns away and gives up, then chase him down. Using clouds during the engagement can also be very helpful. The 190A-9 requires patience and good tactics, you are not going to win any fancy, Hollywood style dogfights in the 190A-9, it just won't happen.

As a note, speed-wise the P-51 seems to be really strong at around 3,000m, and the 190A-9 and D-9 are fairly strong at around 5,500m. Climb rates will still be good however for Mustang and Dora, but the A-9 will fall off badly.

In general the D-9 is faster, climbs better, and retains energy better than the A-9. Once the guns/cannons are fixed I plan to spend alot of time in the D-9.

However due to its firepower the A-9 is still a better ground attack plane and bomber interceptor. The A-9 is modelled with bomb-rack so you can drop a 500kg bomb and suffer no performance loss, after its dropped it is as if you never carried one at all but you will not have Mk.108 option (but you will still have 4x 20mm 151/20's). The A-9 is more versatile and has one pass killing power that is unmatched so it is still a great aircraft, especially for tackling heavies and doing hit and run raids down low where you can out-run any pursuer even after dropping your bomb (except for La-7, P-63 will be about even). The A-9 pretty much requires full switch settings to be really effective IMO as surprise and the ability to stalk is key. Always fly with wingmen if you can and drag any pursuers so they can be picked off of you. The 190A is a team plane, not a 1 vs. 1 plane, whereas the Dora can mix it up a little better in close. When I fly the A-9 I often disengage from fights that I don't carry an advantage into, but this type of flying is not for everyone as it is not the most exciting. I just prefer to value the life of my pilot more and will do whatever it takes to stay alive, even if it means running alot. I'm weird that way I guess, for me its all about immersion.

In short, the 190A-9 and 190D-9 are great, but different.

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Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Sat May 01 2004 at 12:23 AM.]

Zen--
05-01-2004, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jenikovtaw:
Excellent tips, will try them tomorrow.

How do you guys judge when "he's about to fire" or "he's starting to turn" etc, when you play with cockpit on? I mean, he's behind you, granted you can see around your back, but not behind you!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woops, I guess we never clarified that...you must always turn enough to keep him in view. If you can't see him, you're in trouble, so turn to keep him in sight. As for when to evade, that comes with experience I guess, or when you see his muzzle flashes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


@Gozr -- The object viewer is off for the A9 vs D9, it seems to have figures closer to real life but they are not this way in game, the A9 climbs worse than the D9 for sure.
I haven't messed around with the F8 in AEP too much, but I figure it's probably the same or similar as in FB, which is why I posted the FB 1.22 comments about it. If the OV says 535kph in AEP thats news to me, I bet it's probably faster though in game.

Hunde...awesome post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!! Very nice comparison between the two.


Lastly, @ Fehler, Sorry for spilling the beans... I believe in telling it like it is and not keeping secrets, forgive me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

BS87
05-01-2004, 09:52 PM
*opens up notebook and begins to take notes on dora tactics, so i will have a fighting chance*

JG14_Josf
05-01-2004, 11:26 PM
I sure am glad I read this post! Thanks to all who have contributed.

Just one note on looking back to see what is happening:
While turning and looking back to see the enemy following it can help to evaluate if he is pulling lead - trying to cut the turn, if he is cutting the turn then roll the other direction and look back from the other side.

Any turn will give up angles and make the distance to close shorter unless the enemy follows the same exact path; pure pursuit.

It is difficult to judge when lag is factored in but for the most obvious case where the enemy is pulling a lot of lead in an effort to cut off your turn it can throw them off to simply turn the other direction. If the guy trying to catch you is ham fisted and if you are making energy efficient turns then this technique can help gain relative energy.

I'm simply trying to say, and getting kind of wordy, that when looking back it may be helpful to realize that turning offers the guy behind a short cut and if he takes the short cut, you can take it away from him.

If the idea is to extend then the most efficient path is straight away with the enemy at 6 o'clock. The problem is that it is impossible to see in this manner, so the need to look is in many situations more important than gaining distance.

If you fly FW's for awhile and then jump into an early model 109 it becomes very clear that a wingman is essential.



I hope that helps too.

Red_Storm
05-02-2004, 02:40 PM
I've been flying the D-9 since it was released (and before http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) exclusively, so I think I can help you quite a bit. P-51's shouldn't be that hard to beat. First try turning with them. You have to reach a certain "stall-envelope" in which you can make tight turns with a bit of practise and skill. You know you've reached this point when you see the vapor trails on following your wingtips. If turning fails, dive down to the deck and pull back on the stick quickly, resulting in a snap spin. This'll bleed off most of your speed. Immediately drop flaps and power down to 0%. The P-51/Yak-3/La-7 will follow you and somtimes even lower their flaps with you. You've got a huge advantage over them at low speeds though, make a series of extremely low speed turns and rolls, right on the brink of stalling and then pull into a snap roll again, quickly get out of it and power away. The D-9's amazing acceleration will pull your plane away safely, while the other plane will crash into the ground.

Oh, and with turnfighting I don't mean doing 360 horizontal laps, I mean turnfighting in the vertical. In a FW-190, you don't TnB and you don't BnZ either, you fight in a sort of TnB BnZ way, never extending too far, but never turning too tight. Always keep the E advantage.

My personal Dora: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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CanonUK is the best skinner out there IMHO. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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[This message was edited by Red_Storm on Sun May 02 2004 at 01:57 PM.]

LuftLuver
05-02-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
If turning fails, dive down to the deck and pull back on the stick quickly, resulting in a snap spin. This'll bleed off most of your speed. Immediately drop flaps and power down to 0%.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, respectfully I can only say this and the other tactics you mentioned will simply get you killed. My Mustang will easily carve you up with these moves. And when the .50s are brought anywhere NEAR historical performance................ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

β"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Ά
"All your bases are belong to us."

Red_Storm
05-02-2004, 04:33 PM
But I tell you from experience that it works. Perhaps not against you, but it does against the vast majority of Pony drivers. And if I notice I'm up against a skilled Pony driver, I'll quickly evaluate his flying style and adapt to either TnB or BnZ manouevres. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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LuftLuver
05-02-2004, 06:08 PM
Mean Ol' Red_Storm,

Pickin on those Pony n00bs again! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BTW, are you formerly JG26_Red?

&lt;S&gt;

β"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Ά
"All your bases are belong to us."

BS87
05-02-2004, 07:00 PM
Any good pony driver, would see you tirling on the deck, and just climb up and pounce on you after you bled all your E.

geetarman
05-04-2004, 09:52 AM
Hunde - I'm with you on the immersion bit of your post. No matter what plane I'm flying - I see nothing wrong with leaving a fight I'm losing. The challenge then becomes seeing if you can make it home in one piece.

WOLFMondo
05-04-2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
When I fly the A-9 I often disengage from fights that I don't carry an advantage into, but this type of flying is not for everyone as it is not the most excitingM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats the one thing that has kept me alive in the Fw190 is leaving a fight that I know Im going to have to really work hard to win cause I've no advantage. Its not a plane I've ever been that great in but a few simple pointers makes a world of difference.

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Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

HayateKid
05-04-2004, 02:54 PM
I always have better success when I fly P-51 than when I fly the Dora or bf109. I attribute this to the fact that I think the P-51 doesn't require precise aiming (spray and pray with .50 caliber spread).

Has any of you guys (experts on Fw190) flown the P-51? What can you say was your comparative performance?

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

robban75
05-04-2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Has any of you guys (experts on Fw190) flown the P-51? What can you say was your comparative performance?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I'm no expert but I do pretty well in the D-9. The D-9 and P-51 are very similar in performance.

Dora advantages

Climb(only just)
Speed(only just)
Roll

P-51 advantages

Turn(only just)
Ease of aim

Similarities in performance are

Dive
zoomclimb
Acceleration
High speed manouverability

The P-51 is however easier to fly at low airspeeds, IMHO of course. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Hunde_3.JG51
05-04-2004, 03:56 PM
Dora and P-51 are very similar performance wise, and if you search through my posts I have said that the P-51 is the most "FW-190" like plane in the game IMO because of its excellent high speed handling and required tactics.

Robban is correct in pointing out the differences between the two. If you are looking to become a serious Dora pilot then I would examine/test speeds at different altitudes. You may be surprised what they are both capable of and where they hold the advantage over eachother. Check the P-51 at around 3,000m (and then test Dora) and check the Dora at around 5,000+m (then test Mustang).

As for the P-51 and FW-190A the differences change a little.

FW-190A advantages:
-Firepower
-Roll
-Engine durability
-No performance hit with A-8 and A-9 when carrying bombs on centerline due to bomb-rack being modelled in already, even in fighter configuration. This makes the 190A-8 and A-9 very good at hit and run raids.
-FW-190A-9 faster than P-51 at sea-level.

Mustang advantages:
-Climb (though climb-rates are similar below 2,000m)
-Turn rate
-P-51B/C: FW-190A-5 and P-51B/C speed are similar until higher altitudes (6,500m+) where P-51B/C is superior.
-P-51D: Speed over FW-190A-8, speed over A-9 at specific (most) altitudes. Faster at higher altitudes.
-Zoom climb
-Ease of aiming
-Tougher structure (though I hope this changes with fixes to guns/cannons in patch)
-Forward visibility
-Acceleration

Both have excellent high speed handling, stability, and dive capability. In short they both are very good planes to "bounce" your opposition with, although the 190A has a slight advantage due to firepower. Much like the Dora the P-51 is a good fighter, but the 190A is more versatile due to its tougher engine which alows it to perform ground-attack and bomber interception missions with great efficiency. Both planes benefit from full-switch servers (the only way to fly IMO), with this being especially true for the 190A.

Though it seems the 190A is fairly out-classed (and is undermodelled IMO in terms of dive, zoom climb, and acceleration) by the P-51, if you use good team tactics and/or have the initial advantage you can do just fine. If you are at a disadvantage or outnumbered I recommend disengaging.

Geetarman and Wolfmondo, you are doing the right thing. You will hardly ever turn the fight around in a 190A if you are at a disadvantage when facing quality planes like the P-51, La-7, P-63, etc.. Your best chance is to find friendlies and use clouds, if he loses sight of you, you can turn the tables. Many guys chase you into clouds and start turning and moving around. When you go into clouds change direction slightly but don't turn. Stay in clouds as long as you can and build speed, then climb straight out of clouds grabbing as much altitude as you can and look for him below you. 99% of the time he will have lost sight of you and this is your chance to grab the advantage. Escaping/disengaging in the 190A-9 and Dora is not too difficult, just keep him off of you until you can get low and out-run him (you should have about a 12-15km/h speed advantage on the deck). As soon as you are clear get high again as fast as possible, you should be travaling at around 590-600km/h so a zoom climb will take you back up fairly quickly.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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