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Vladimir_No2
06-17-2004, 10:55 PM
Does anyone know where I could find some information on the tactics used by Polish fighter pilots during the German invasion? Also, does anyone know where I could find information[or pictures] on Polish air force uniforms/flightsuits?

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

Vladimir_No2
06-17-2004, 10:55 PM
Does anyone know where I could find some information on the tactics used by Polish fighter pilots during the German invasion? Also, does anyone know where I could find information[or pictures] on Polish air force uniforms/flightsuits?

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

WTE_Galway
06-18-2004, 12:34 AM
http://ww2-aviation.net/polavhist/sept39.html

Dawg-of-death
06-18-2004, 12:47 AM
1st tactic get off ground ..........LOL

The post above claims differant , but according to the program on Discvery Wings-Luftwaffe, they claims the Germans Vulched them to death in a matter of a few hours.........

BadM-F(Mongrel-Fighter)...... AKA Dawg-of-death
Former Member... Kelly Johnsons...Skunk Works

[This message was edited by Dawg-of-death on Fri June 18 2004 at 12:14 AM.]

LEXX_Luthor
06-18-2004, 02:25 AM
Awsum link, thanks. A few Ju~87s vulched some P~11s on the first morning, making the first air~air kill of the WAR. But for the most part Polish Air Force was highly disperesed just before the WAR. Most interesting, the Germans were forced to rely on 5-to-1 numerical superiority against 1939 Poland, something you don't see talked about much on flight sim boards devoted purely to late WAR Noob planes.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

rwernick
06-18-2004, 02:50 AM
There are many books published in Poland, obviously these are in Polish but sometimes there are English language sub-titles to photos and a summary at the end. Let me know what you are looking for exactly and I can check out a big military bookshop in Warsaw

Indianer.
06-18-2004, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
Does anyone know where I could find some information on the tactics used by Polish fighter pilots during the German invasion?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didnt they jump in their moterbike with sidecar, with a handfull of nude photos and drive to England to fight the Nazi hordes in the BoB?



I'm sure I saw that somewhere..


.........or were they Chechz? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://www.fighter-collection.com/film/img/dark_blue_world.jpg

"Wer auf die preussische Fahne schwort, hat nichts mehr, was ihm selber gehort"

Rola.
06-18-2004, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawg-of-death:
The post above claims differant , but according to the program on Discvery Wings-Luftwaffe, they claims the Germans Vulched them to death in a matter of a few hours.........
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, if you believe that Discovery Channel is the incarnation of all the wisdom of the world then good luck to you, pal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In fact they're repeating the same lies word for word after Goebbels. Sheesh, and to think they were/are our allies...

Anyway, if you want to learn some truth about the war - especially the September Campaign (Germans called it Fall Weiss, we call it Defensive War) - then head to www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl) website. We add articles every few days, which are written after comparing sources from various books (including German documents).

Do you know that finding the first active airfield took Germans almost a week? And that the plane loses are fairly compareable (~300) for both sides, despite the fact that Luftwaffe outnumbered Lotnictwo Wojskowe with 5:1 ratio (not to mention they had newer equipment). Do you know that we opposed our enemies (III Reich and Soviet Union) for as long as France did in 1940?

Open your mind and stop repeating propaganda rubbish that is 60 years old.

---------------------


Vladimir_No2, you will find some practical tips from one of our aces on the www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl) website (under HISTORY-texts) - more articles coming soon.

Polish pilots in wz.36 uniforms:
http://republika.pl/kajzer1/Rola/trzeci_z_lewej.jpg


S!
Rafal "Rola" Skibicki


"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)

LEXX_Luthor
06-18-2004, 05:19 AM
They are only pulling our leg Sibicki. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Frequent_Flyer
06-18-2004, 06:33 AM
I check the boards enough to suit my needs, but rarely post. It is interesting to see the National and civic pride people have. That is a good thing.What is'nt a good thing is the way some, not all, need to use obvious inflammatory remarks to advance their point, and then say "I'm just playing,dont be so sensative"

*****************************"Hitler Built A Fortress Around Europe,But He Forgot to Put A Roof On It" ~ FDR

Zayets
06-18-2004, 06:41 AM
Skibicki,
Awsum site!

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

BitwiseOp
06-18-2004, 06:55 AM
Apparently Polish fighter pilot tactics in the BoB were to learn the 2 following phrases:

"You are very beautiful"
"You and me go to pictures"

...hit rate with English girls was even higher than their hit rate in the air http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Joking aside, the Polish pilots who fought in the BoB were seasoned vets who were a credit to themselves and their country.

spiffalski
06-18-2004, 06:55 AM
"Open your mind and stop repeating propaganda rubbish that is 60 years old."

Absolutely.
The book on the 303 kosciusko squadron by cloud and olsen is a good place to read some facts about the polish people and how they were utterly shafted by churchill and roosevelt.

If there is one squadron I would join in IL2 it would be 303.

Oh and the tactics were keep your eyes peeled at all times. Dont fly straight. Wait until you can smell their breath before you fire. etc. Basically they knew what they were doing from the off in the BoB while the brits in the RAF had to learn.

p1ngu666
06-18-2004, 07:00 AM
they was great pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
and agressive too from what ive heard

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Atomic_Marten
06-18-2004, 07:01 AM
Check this out too: http://www.geocities.com/skrzydla/

http://www.geocities.com/dywizjon/pilots/Arct.jpg
S/Ldr Bohdan Arct

I think that Poles show remarkable resistance during WW2 in country defence and after that in exile. Many other should look after them....

Inadaze
06-18-2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
they was great pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
and agressive too from what ive heard

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its a Polish Squadron that had the highest kill rate in the RAF by the end of the war, I can't remember which one though.

S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Inadaze

VW-IceFire
06-18-2004, 07:22 AM
The Polish Air Force lasted a surprisingly long period of time after hostilities broke out. I forget the exact number but a fairly astounding number of German fighters and other types were shot down by Polish fighters despite what was by then an inferior set of aircraft (at one point in the 20's or 30's the Polish airforce was consideredly fairly advanced).

The other story I've heard is that Polish RAF squadrons had a fairly simple method for downing fighters. They would line their shots up and keep shooting till the plane went down. Not sure on the exact truth to the story and it seems a little wasteful of ammo if you aren't exactly sure of your shot but apparently it worked for them. Czech and Polish pilots amongst others did exceptionally well with the RAF despite a varied background and a large amount of initial misgivings by the RAF command.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

spiffalski
06-18-2004, 07:25 AM
It was 303 that was the highest.

Kwiatos
06-18-2004, 07:51 AM
and there is 303 Polish Sqn which flying IL2/FB. See these:


- http://www.303.prv.pl/

and these :

- http://www2.klepaker.no:81/Vov/showstats.php?by=allsquadstatsfigh

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rola.
06-18-2004, 08:16 AM
I feel relieved to see that at least some people are not afraid to read books and learn less known facts about WW2 - big salute to you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I'd gladly meet with you on www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl) forum.

I rarely watch Discovery Channel, so maybe one of you who does it regularly can tell me, if they mention the fact that the only Allied country expelled from the 1946 Victory Parade was Poland - and that British government did this to please Stalin? Do they mention the sum of 107 650 000 GBP paid by Polish government from the gold reserves for the every sock, button, uniform, gallon of fuel, gun, aircraft or bullet used up during the defense of Great Britain (and all this equipment remained in UK and did not fly to Poland). Do they say about the words "Poles go home!" painted on the walls of British houses in late 1945 and 1946? Did the noted how many Polish pilots were beaten up during that period of anti-Polish propaganda and how many of those veterans, who didn't want to get back to their country, knowing it was overrun by Soviets, met with their squadron buddies in some quiet pub, grabbed guns and shot a bullet in the head together, knowing that their cause is lost?

If that TV channel is supposed to deliver unbiased, informative and thoroughly researched programmes, then you should already know this... but I'm afraid many of you will read this for the first time.

[This message was edited by Skibicki on Fri June 18 2004 at 07:44 AM.]

Inadaze
06-18-2004, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skibicki:
I feel relieved to see that at least some people are not afraid to read books and learn less known facts about WW2 - big salute to you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I'd gladly meet with you on http://www.9-1939.pl forum.

I rarely watch Discovery Channel, so maybe one of you who does it regularly can tell me, if they mention the fact that the only Allied country expelled from the 1946 Victory Parade was Poland - and that British government did this to please Stalin? Do they mention the sum of 107 650 000 GBP paid by Polish government from the gold reserves for the every sock, button, uniform, gallon of fuel, gun, aircraft or bullet used up during the defense of Great Britain (and all this equipment remained in UK and did not fly to Poland). Do they say about the words "Poles go home!" painted on the walls of British houses in late 1945 and 1946? Did the noted how many Polish pilots were beaten up during that period of anti-Polish propaganda and how many of those veterans, who didn't want to get back to their country, knowing it was overrun by Soviets, met with their squadron buddies in some quiet pub, grabbed guns and shot a bullet in the head together, knowing that their cause is lost?

If that TV channel is supposed to deliver unbiased, informative and thoroughly researched programmes, then you should already know this... but I'm afraid many of you will read this for the first time.

[This message was edited by Skibicki on Fri June 18 2004 at 07:44 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard a little about it but not much. I've heard how we screwed the Cossacks over as well. We took hundreds of thousands of Cossack prisoners that had been fighting for Germany against the Russians. They had surrendered to the British because they were seen as traitors by the Russians and were justly worried about falling into Soviet hands.

To cut a long story short, against the rules we handed them over to Stalin, many of the officers cut their own throats with broken glass before they were handed over. The rest of the men were herded into railway cars at bayonet point and shipped off.

After the war there was a war crimes enquiry into the incident, By convention the British shouldn't have given the prisoners to the Russians as they knew they were sending them to incarcation and/or death.

The enquiry found not guilty, but myself as a Brit, I felt it had been glossed over and alot of shame that my country had a government that was capable of such things.

You don't hear about things like this as much because its a more personal type of story I guess. Things like this also shatter the Myth, there's a kind of "good war" mythology about World War2 from the allied side. We were the good guys, we did nothing bad. Truth told. No war is a good war.

S! Inadaze

http://www.apws62.dsl.pipex.com/inadazesig.gif
Crests courtesy of RAF Marham - http://www.rafmarham.co.uk

IKG26Redcoat
06-18-2004, 09:21 AM
The Polish pilots who served with Fighter Command were almost to a man as experienced, or in most cases more so than their RAF counterparts. The Poles were excellent. The two Polish squadrons were in the top five high scoring RAF squadrons of the war. They would fly in any weather. They used every oppurtunity to kill germans. Anyone who actualy knows what they are talking about has to have full respect for the Polish pilots.

There are a lot of people, who say, that bombing can never win a war. Well, my answer to that, is that it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.
Sir Arthur Harris
CinC Bomber Command

Michcich_303
06-18-2004, 09:43 AM
Good to see such a thread coming up here, Rola.

If you guys rely on Discovery channel and movies like BoB, then very soon we`re going to see a thread here that says: "Billy Fiske won Battle of Britain on his own"http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

http://212.160.164.234/~apacz/phpBB2/images/photos/d54c698c3f19b121b9889.jpg

IKG26Redcoat
06-18-2004, 09:48 AM
Bollocks to the discovery Channel . Bigger liars than Hollywood. If you want the truth, read a book. Then another. Not all knowledge comes from the telly...........http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There are a lot of people, who say, that bombing can never win a war. Well, my answer to that, is that it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.
Sir Arthur Harris
CinC Bomber Command

Rola.
06-18-2004, 10:04 AM
For all Polish pilots' fans out there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



143 Fighter Escadrille, late 1930s, PZL P.7a in the background
http://republika.pl/kajzer1/Rola/143EM.jpg




"Top Guns" in leather flightsuits, early 1930s (you can see Army uniform beneath the flightsuits), again: PZL P.7a fighter
http://republika.pl/kajzer1/Rola/top_guns.jpg

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)

Vladimir_No2
06-18-2004, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the great pictures and especially for the link to the september 1939 site(I never knew that Estonia expressed intrest in purchasing p.11s). It is wonderful to see that someone is working to make more Polish aircraft!

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

Martial1
06-18-2004, 12:44 PM
I have seen numerous programs where actual serving BoB Brits spoke about the Polish pilots flying out of UK and other bases.
The Polish were dedicated, stupidly brave and masively enthusiastic about destroying the enemy, with almost no regard for their own safety.
God bless Poland and her people, United Kingdom will NEVER forget their sacrifice- NEVER!

The Martial1

British born and raised, big polish fan http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

p1ngu666
06-18-2004, 01:14 PM
anyone got a pic of the 303 emblame/logo
it was a duck ? my dad wants todo a 303 skin i think and needs that

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Inadaze
06-18-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
anyone got a pic of the 303 emblame/logo
it was a duck ? my dad wants todo a 303 skin i think and needs that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here ya go,
http://www.apws62.dsl.pipex.com/303sqncrst.gif

I got it here http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/266to312.html 302 Squadron is a bit more duckish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif If you squint, alot, sort of
I think I've seen a colour photo of one of the 303 Spitfires (it coiuld be a Hurri) that has a Donald Duck motif on it.

S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Inadaze

[This message was edited by Inadaze on Fri June 18 2004 at 12:57 PM.]

LStarosta
06-18-2004, 02:35 PM
That's not the correct insignia.

The "Duck" you're referring to is the Donald Duck that was painted on Jan Zumbach's aircraft. The picture below also shows the correct 303d Polish Squadron emblem. If you find pictures of other pilots in this aircraft, it's because it was THE aircraft to get photographed in! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/zumbach.jpg


Another look at the emblem, this time with the official final tally after the Battle of Britain. Total squadron kills numbered 126 kills in two months, making 303 the highest scoring squadron of the Battle of Britain.
http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/126kills.jpg


Despite some people's beliefs, 303 was NOT a propaganda squadron compiled of elite pilots. Their and other Polish pilots' "eliteness", if you will, was partially due to rigorous training in Deblin, but also priceless experience gained in not only Poland, but France in 1940, against technically superior enemies. Couple the fact that they did not subscribe to somewhat silly British fighter tactics such as flying in tight formations (where too much attention was spent on keeping your eyes out on your squadmates to avoid midair collisions, and not enough time to spot bandits). That is not to discredit the British airmen, for after all many of them were merely teenagers given a plane and a license to kill, and many of them fought with the tenacity and aggression exhibited by men that fight for their homeland and freedom. God bless them all.

Czolem, Skibicki! Ogromne dzieki za Wrzesien 1939! Pozdrowienia z rodziny Starostow! Moj ojciec i ja nie mozemy sie doczekac Twojego projektu!

[This message was edited by LStarosta on Fri June 18 2004 at 01:55 PM.]

Rola.
06-18-2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inadaze:
I think I've seen a colour photo of one of the 303 Spitfires (it coiuld be a Hurri) that has a Donald Duck motif on it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe this one? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Wing Commander Jan Zumbach, 12+1/3 - 5 - 1 kills
http://republika.pl/kajzer1/Rola/Zumbach_SpitfireVB_RF-D_EN951_Nov1942.jpg

If you watch "Pearl Harbor" carefully, you may find this plane as one of ...the American Eagle Squadron http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Movie bloopers are sometimes cool!


As for the Polish squadron emblems: I'll bet you've all got AEP by now - all Polish fighter squadrons in RAF are featured there (under Great Britain) - just try to guess who uploaded them there... err... akhem... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


S! all,
"Rola"

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)

Inadaze
06-18-2004, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skibicki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inadaze:
I think I've seen a colour photo of one of the 303 Spitfires (it coiuld be a Hurri) that has a Donald Duck motif on it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe this one? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that's the one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S! Inadaze

LStarosta
06-19-2004, 12:03 AM
LoL, there's actually a pretty interesting tale and history behind not only the Kosciuszkowski squadron (303 and its predecessors) emblem but the squadron itself. It was co-founded by American volunteers during the Polish-Soviet war. A certain Merian C. Cooper (who happened to later direct and produce King Kong) was the main man in the creation of the long-lived Kosciuszkowski Squadron. Merian, a full born American, had deep love and appreciation for the Polish nation, and especially a very deep respect for Tadeusz Kosciuszko (http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa060801a.htm). From this came the squadron emblem (and name), which was designed to show the bonds that the United States and Poland had made from the United State's very point of existance. It consisted of a stylized American flag with Kosciuszko's cap and feather and two intersecting scythes, (which represented Kosciuszko's "Kosinierzy" or scythe-bearers in the Rebellion against Russia), surrounded by the stars of the original 13 colonies. With the outbreak of the Polish-Soviet War in 1919, Merian led a group of American volunteers to Poland to help establish the Kosciuszkowski Squadron. With these colors, American and Polish pilots, side by side, helped fight off the Soviet invaders successfully, being some of the first in the world to utilize advanced close air support tactics which were a decisive factor in the defeat of the Soviets. The squadron name and emblemhas stuck ever since the end of the Polish-Soviet War in 1921, and 303 Squadron was perhaps its most famous reincarnation. I bet Merian C. Cooper was proud to see how far the squadron he helped found had gone.

Anyway, this is off the top of my head so it's not very clear or detailed. I strongly recommend A Question of Honor: Forgotten Heroes of World War II by Cloud and Olsen. It's an excellent book, and in it you will find a better account of the Merian C. Cooper tale, as well as some other things you may have not known about the "Allies" of WWII.

[This message was edited by LStarosta on Fri June 18 2004 at 11:24 PM.]