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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:33 PM
From S Ambrose "D-DAY" page 32

"US raid on Berlin: 14 fighter groups escorted 1,250 B-17s which was almost a one for one escort ratio. They were set upon by a single squadron of ME 262s which knocked down 25 bombers and 5 fighters. The Germans were out numbered by a 100-1 margin and didn't lose a single plane."


The only reason I thought of mentioning this is because I guess I never really comprehended what a stud the 262 was. I knew it could fly loops around Allied fighter planes but this clearly illustrates the utter disparity between the best Allied piston drive plane vs the 262 jet. Geez, the thing had 4 30mm cannons! The main reason I think S Ambrose mentions this nugget of information is to show what could have happened had the Germans been able to put any type of sizable air or even naval presence around the shores of Normandy leading up to and on June 1944. I do realize the only method for dealing with 262s was to let them fly their loops at high speed and burn off fuel and then bounce them as they land. Another interesting tid-bit of information regarding the 262 was they were fueled by alcohol made from the 1944 German potato crops. According to Ambrose, Germans paid a terrible price at wars end as a result of this. stubby

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:33 PM
From S Ambrose "D-DAY" page 32

"US raid on Berlin: 14 fighter groups escorted 1,250 B-17s which was almost a one for one escort ratio. They were set upon by a single squadron of ME 262s which knocked down 25 bombers and 5 fighters. The Germans were out numbered by a 100-1 margin and didn't lose a single plane."


The only reason I thought of mentioning this is because I guess I never really comprehended what a stud the 262 was. I knew it could fly loops around Allied fighter planes but this clearly illustrates the utter disparity between the best Allied piston drive plane vs the 262 jet. Geez, the thing had 4 30mm cannons! The main reason I think S Ambrose mentions this nugget of information is to show what could have happened had the Germans been able to put any type of sizable air or even naval presence around the shores of Normandy leading up to and on June 1944. I do realize the only method for dealing with 262s was to let them fly their loops at high speed and burn off fuel and then bounce them as they land. Another interesting tid-bit of information regarding the 262 was they were fueled by alcohol made from the 1944 German potato crops. According to Ambrose, Germans paid a terrible price at wars end as a result of this. stubby

fluke39
07-23-2003, 12:39 PM
IIRC (and battle stations is correct)
allied pilots also found:

in a dive the mustang had same speed as 262 so if the 262 wasn't piloted by a good pilot the mustangs could catch and shoot them down that way

the 262 had a much larger turning circle than slower piston engined planes - therefore a well piloted mustang etc could sometimes get some shots in by 'leading the target' while the planes were turning

of course neither of these two methods were probably as good as catching a 262 in take off / landing - and only relly worked if the 262 pilots were not experienced.


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:41 PM
I read about a US-pilot who protected a limping-home B-17. They were 7 or 8 P-51 available to protect that damaged straggler as lone 262 attacked that formation. That US-pilot stated that the Me262 attacked at his will. They, the 8 P-51, had all hands full of work to cover the B-17 from the single German. After long lasting minutes the 262 broke away and headed for home base.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:48 PM
The 262 certainly required a change in tactics:

"New tactics were clearly needed in order to deal with the jet-powered threat. Drawing on the lessons learned during the debriefing of returning American pilots, USAAF headquarters published a confidential report (#45-102) on German jet-propelled aircraft on 10 February 1945. This document gave fighter pilots sound advice on ways to survive encounter with the jet.

For example, pilots were advised to enter into a turning battle if attacked, as it was discovered that the jet was not nearly as agile or maneuverable as a conventional fighter.There were other problems with the aircraft themselves. The Mk-108 cannons were prone to jams, and the engines were extremely short-lived by any standard of measurement -- usually requiring replacement at least every 25 hours. It was commonplace for 262s to return from a mission and land on a single engine. Although engine replacements were easily and quickly accomplished, this put a further strain on a very limited pool of resources.The Allies were quick to discover that the jet had an Achilles Heel, and adopted a technique known as "rat catching." The 262 required very long takeoff rolls and landing runs, during which it was defenseless.


The 262's performance took some getting used to for some Luftwaffe pilots:

"Franz Stigler
What other types of planes did you fly?

"He flew the Me262 on many missions near the end of the war and likes its speed most of all. The engines had to be overhauled every 20 hours, and the aircraft was sluggish in its controls at low and very high speeds. To many it was hard to switch to a new aircraft after flying only one type for so many years. The huge speed advantage made it difficult to do passes on bombers as they would always end up overshooting the formation since they came in too fast. It took some getting used to. On landing they were very vulnerable however and used 190's to cover them. The stick control at low speeds was bad, and the engines had to be throttled very far back to prepare for landing."

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:54 PM
SUNDAY, 18 MARCH 1945

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.

1. Mission 894: 1,329 bombers and 733 fighters are dispatched to hit railway stations and tanks plants in the Berlin area; the attacks are made both visually and with H2X radar; the Luftwaffe makes it's most concentrated and successful attacks with Me 262s to date; the AAF claims 21-1-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 13 bombers (8 to flak) and 6 fighters are lost:

1. 421 of 450 B-17s hit the Schlesischer rail station in Berlin; 13 hit the secondary target, Zehdnuk; and 1 hits Vechta, a target of opportunity; they claim 6-0-0 aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 8 damaged beyond repair and 268 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 18 WIA and 49 MIA. 179 of 199 P-51s escort; they claim 4-0-2 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.

2. 495 of 530 B-17s hit the Nord rail station in Berlin; targets of opportunity are Ludwigslust (3) and other (3); they claim 1-1-1 aircraft; 7 B-17s are lost, 6 damaged beyond repair and 319 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 12 WIA and 79 MIA. Escorting are 219 of 238 P-51s; they claim 7-0-1 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.

3. 347 B-24s are sent to hit the Tegel (225) and Henningsdorf (80) tank factories in Berlin; targets of opportunity are Oranienburg (9), Uelzen (9) and other (3); 1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 127 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 11 MIA. The escort is 254 P-51s; they claim 3-0-1 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.

4. 2 B-17s fly a scouting mission.

5. 27 of 30 P-51s fly a scouting mission.

6. 1 of 12 P-51s escort 5 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.
2. Mission 895: 10 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Germany during the night without loss.

from http://hometown.aol.com/jlowry3402/mar45.html

disregard the USAAF claims./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


In "Me262" Vol 3 pg 616 the Germans(JG7 with 28 of 37 a/c attacking) claim 13 destroyed, 2 probably destroyed, 6 damaged B-17s.

2 - Maj. Weissenberger
1 - Ofw. Lubking
1 - Ofw. Rademacker
1 - Lt. Sturm
2 - Oblt. Wegman
2 - Lt. Schnorrer
1 - Oblt. Seeler
1 - Ofhr. Windisch

The 2 others to make 13, not noted.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 07/23/0308:13AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:38 PM
Milo.. maybe its my bad english..
your post is interesting, but I don´t understand what you want to say :/

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:48 PM
sorry but sometimes they were even 5-6 p51d after a 190 d9 without shoting him down..( Pierre Clostermann - The Big Show )

Davide

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:48 PM
stubby wrote:
-
- Another interesting tid-bit of information
- regarding the 262 was they were fueled by alcohol
- made from the 1944 German potato crops. According
- to Ambrose, Germans paid a terrible price at wars
- end as a result of this.


I've read that the Me262 was fueled by kerosene (jet fuel)? I have a video at home about the development of the Me262 showing some early mishaps during the first flights. One footage shows the engine catching fire upon landing due to leftover unburned fuel beeing disturbed. It clearly shows large flames/smoke from the engines. AFAIK alcohol burns without any visible flame...

Surely, alcohol must be way too flammable to use in a jet engine?

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:58 PM
Abbuzze wrote:
- Milo.. maybe its my bad english..
- your post is interesting, but I don´t understand
- what you want to say :/
-
-

Three different versions of what happened on March 18 1945 and all different./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The American and German accounts though, are much closer than what was said in the original post. The Americans admit the loss of 13 B-17s, but say 8 were lost to Flak.

OBW, for the link posted, if you chage the month and year, you can see other mission info.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:00 PM
Kerosen is a sort of Petroleum that burns with alot of black smoke. Similar to the Petroleum that is filled in lamps. Petroleum is much less aggresive than common gasoline.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:04 PM
FAFL_Mined wrote:
- sorry but sometimes they were even 5-6 p51d after a
- 190 d9 without shoting him down..( Pierre
- Clostermann - The Big Show )
-
- Davide
-

Many such anecdotes can be found on all sides. I recall RAF pilot Johnnie Johnson escaping an attack by 4 109's on his Spitfire.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:17 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Kerosen is a sort of Petroleum that burns with alot
- of black smoke. Similar to the Petroleum that is
- filled in lamps. Petroleum is much less aggresive
- than common gasoline.
-

Petroleum is another name for 'crude oil' and very thick. Petroleum processing for fractions give one gasoline(petrol), naptha, kerosene,.......

Black smoke is the result of incomplete combustion. My kerosene camping lamp I can adjust so that no smoke is emitted.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

Tully__
07-23-2003, 02:17 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Kerosen is a sort of Petroleum that burns with alot
- of black smoke. Similar to the Petroleum that is
- filled in lamps. Petroleum is much less aggresive
- than common gasoline.
-


Depends what country you're in. In some places gasoline (what you get at the bowser for your car) is called petrol(eum). Kerosene is similar to diesel in it's flamability.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:20 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Kerosen is a sort of Petroleum that burns with alot
- of black smoke. Similar to the Petroleum that is
- filled in lamps. Petroleum is much less aggresive
- than common gasoline.

Yes I know. What I am trying to say is that the Me262 was fueled by kerosene and not by alcohol as the first poster states...

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:26 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
- It was commonplace for 262s to return from
- a mission and land on a single engine.

mhmm.. how many of us can perform a land on one engine with a Me-262 in FB ?!

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:33 PM
Seems very different designation form country to country

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:37 PM
The Jumo 004 would prove to be the source of the Me 262's greatest weakness. The turbojet was at this time still in it's infancy and many technological hurdles had to be overcome. This resulted in a lengthy period of development which led to continued delay in the development and production of the Me 262. One of the problems was that the materials necessary for proper heat proofing were extremely rare in war-torn Germany. Alternate materials had to be used which resulted in engines that were less than reliable. In some cases, a brand new engine would suffer catastrophic failure during initial run-up. Even engines that worked right had a very short operational life. Most would only last for 12 hours of operation. On many occasions, pilots were forced to land with one or both engines out.

Junkers Jumo 004 Specifications

Model Thrust Weight Speed
004B 900 kg 745 kg 8700 rpm
004C 1015 kg 720 kg 8700 rpm
004D 1050 kg 720 kg 10,000 rpm
004H 1800kg 1200kg 6600rpm

http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/history/history.html

http://www.fightingcolors.com/Me109images/109banner.jpeg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 04:10 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- --
-
- Three different versions of what happened on March
- 18 1945 and all different.
-
- The American and German
- accounts though, are much closer than what was said
- in the original post. The Americans admit the loss
- of 13 B-17s, but say 8 were lost to Flak.
-
-

Different perspectives are indeed interesting. Here is raid info from bomber sources. Fighter attacks are hardly mentioned:

"MISSION # 261
18 March 1945
Field Order # 631
Target: Berlin
On this date, the Eighth Air Force mounted the heaviest raid of World War II against the Third Reich's capital - sending almost (1200) heavies to attack strategic targets in and around the city. The 392nd's target was the Rheinmetal Borsig Armament Works, an ordnance depot facility in the northwest corner of Big "B", as it came to be commonly called by the crews who had to go there. Cloud cover in the target area was heavily broken with undercast conditions. As a result, (2) squadrons of the Group had to make an H2X run on the primary - results being poor. Fortunately, at the last minute on the bomb run, the 578th managed to sight the target visually and hit it with pin-point accuracy. This squadron's bombs fell with (96) percent impacting within 1000 feet of the MPI giving the Group a (43) percent total of all releases in the 2000 foot radius of the aiming point. A total of (143) 1000 # GPs were released by the bombers. Though fighters were not sighted, AA fire as usual over this heavily defended target was intense and extremely accurate. Considerable aircraft battle damage was suffered from flak, (8) bombers mostly from the 578th being hit. Typical of this squadron's aircraft damage was that inflicted on ship # 493 (C-Bar, nicknamed "Dugan") flown by Lieutenant Vickers' crew. The bomber came home with extensive damage to three props chewed up by shrapnel, a gaping slice cut through the leading edge of the left wing between # 1 and # 2 engines, holes in the waist section and the de-icer boot shot off of the left vertical stabilizer. Most fortunately, not a single crewmember from the entire Group force was injured during this mission in view of the intensive enemy reaction. All bombers returned safely, some bedraggled, and landed at Wendling around 1545 hours."

MISSION 196: 18 March 1945

"From the notes of Jim Pippenger, pilot in the 789th, along with observations from Sgt. James F. Brock, in charge of gunnery on Pippenger's crew, and input from Phillip Day, pilot & group historian.

"The target was really to the point. Rheinmetal Plant was a manufacturer of heavy guns, bombs and torpedoes. This was the heaviest raid on Berlin up to this date. We had good results dropping our load of five 1000lb GPs on the target. We were flying lead squadron of the 2d Air Division. The flak was the most intense we had ever seen. Both turrets, nose and tail were hit and the side window opposite the radio operator was blown out. The hydraulic system was damaged at several places and drained dry. The landing with no hydraulics was rather novel, no brakes, no flaps and crank down the landing gear by hand. All went well."

Details of Aircraft Loss
B-24J 42-50599 791st Sqdn Force landed in Soviet controlled territory after being hit by flak. Two crew killed, navigator struck by flak, engineer blown out of aircraft. B-24H-15-FO 42-52546 789th Sqdn Ship hit by flak in the bomb-bay area over the target at Berlin. Majority of crew bailed out. (one crewman, Sgt William B Wilson, struck ship below while bailing out and later died from his injuries.