PDA

View Full Version : P-47 a little underpowered?



XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:37 AM
Is it just me or is the P-47 under powered? I mean its about as powerfull as the the P-40! The rest of the planes seem pritty on the money from my basic understanding of the planes of the era.

And not to only complain........IL-2 is the best flight simulation on the market today of any kind. IL-2 makes Microsoft FS 2002 and 2004 look like a toy. The flight models in those the MS products are utter JUNK. My self and my other airline pilot friends usually play with IL-2 and thats about it becuase we know that is close to the real deal you can currently get on a PC.

Good work guys.........cna't wait to see Lock-ON!


Joe


P.S. I used to fly a modern airline version of made by the Dornier company, hence my handle DO 328. :-) And no no guns on that one...but damn was she fast for a turbo-prop...and broke alot...........german :-).

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:37 AM
Is it just me or is the P-47 under powered? I mean its about as powerfull as the the P-40! The rest of the planes seem pritty on the money from my basic understanding of the planes of the era.

And not to only complain........IL-2 is the best flight simulation on the market today of any kind. IL-2 makes Microsoft FS 2002 and 2004 look like a toy. The flight models in those the MS products are utter JUNK. My self and my other airline pilot friends usually play with IL-2 and thats about it becuase we know that is close to the real deal you can currently get on a PC.

Good work guys.........cna't wait to see Lock-ON!


Joe


P.S. I used to fly a modern airline version of made by the Dornier company, hence my handle DO 328. :-) And no no guns on that one...but damn was she fast for a turbo-prop...and broke alot...........german :-).

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:22 AM
Well I wouldnt compare it to a P-40. But yes its underpowered as far as the top speed and cruise speed according with all the data that I and many others here have seen. The JUG has seen some very nice improvements so far lets wait and see how she turns out in the end.
Top Speed=430MPH
Cruise Speed=350
-Notice thats in miles per hour so you must convert.
-Reguardless if this is ever corrected she is still the only plane I fly until the P-51 and P-38 show up. Then I must share time with all.
S!
47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:21 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- Well I wouldnt compare it to a P-40. But yes its
- underpowered as far as the top speed and cruise
- speed according with all the data that I and many
- others here have seen. The JUG has seen some very
- nice improvements so far lets wait and see how she
- turns out in the end.
- Top Speed=430MPH
- Cruise Speed=350
--Notice thats in miles per hour so you must convert.

At what altitude are you testing? It should manage
about 350mph top speed at sea level.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:39 PM
after V1.1f it has the best ZOOOOOOM of all planes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:04 PM
AaronGT wrote:
- At what altitude are you testing? It should manage
- about 350mph top speed at sea level.

Won't do better than 300mph though. All models. The 27 is the fastest by about 30 or 40 kph (at work right now, can't remember the exact numbers).

Have you tested it? I wonder if it's something I've been doign wrong, if so, I'd like to know. lol

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:05 PM
jurinko wrote:
- after V1.1f it has the best ZOOOOOOM of all planes
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Err....you been flying other planes with rads open and flaps down or something? lol

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:29 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Have you tested it?

I was just responding the the 420mph top speed
comment above, asking what altitude the person
was testing it.

In the D-10 with WEP I have got it to 500kph
at sea level in 1.1F(R) when doing some roll testing. I
didn't try to go any faster. It got to 500kph
with about 3 minutes of acceleration (not timed explicity).

500kph is about 310mph. The D10 should do 536kph at
sea level, so it is possibly 36kph (about 20mph) slow.
I don't know if I would have squeezed anything more out
of the D-10 as acceleration was low by that point.
I didn't tinker with any CEM settings so I don't know
if there is a cowl flap bug (e.g. drag of open cowls
there on spawn), or if diffeent prop/mixture/etc settings
produce a higher speed.

It also might be an issue with 1.1F(R) and I
haven't tested with 1.0 or 1.0b.

I also haven't tested
the D27, which is the version which should get up to about
350mph.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 02:00 AM
I reached the object speeds with the D-10.

Would you like tests done with D-22 and 27 too?







-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 02:22 AM
1.11 or 1.1"F"? Haven't used 1.11 yet.

If you wouldn't mind doing the tests that would be great. I have confidence in your procedures and #s (unlike some here. lol)

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:42 AM
Version is recently released 1.11

Test conditions:
-----------------
* flutter, wind, turbulence set to off
* 100% fuel, no extra ammo

* Procedures:

1) start dive above 1~2k from target altitude
2) radiators are open Lev.2, initial throttle 99%
3) when reaching 300~400m over target altitude, engage "level stabilizers" option
4) use trims to tone plane into near perfect level flight
5) close radiators, engage W/M injection
6) temporarily release stab. lock, to adjust rudder trim
7) lock stabs again
8) fine tune elevator trim, so possible fluctuation in speed and altitude does not exceed 5km/h, 5m change per 2 minutes

With that method, I've reached 542km/h at 13m, 696km/h at 9033m with the D-10 - fluctuation in speed, less than +/- 5km/h per 2 minutes

I'll test the D-22 and the D-27 out also.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!


Message Edited on 09/09/0311:52AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:38 AM
Finished testing the P-47.

Here are the conclusive results.

Type::::::: Speed(SL)::::::: Speed (ALT)
------------------------------
P-47D-10 : 542 @ 13m : 696km/h @ 9033m
P-47D-22 : 543 @ 36m : 700km/h @ 9010m
P-47D-27 : 541 @ 18m : 695km/h @ 9105m

..

I think even with the margin of difference/error taken into account, the results are in acceptable range.




-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 05:53 AM
D-27 the slowest of the bunch? o_O

D-27 should reach 350mph on the deck. 563.41kph. It's currently 22kph too slow according to your numbers. It should also be faster than the D-10. I think faster htan the D-22 as well, but not 100% certain on that.

Also, wind off? That's disheatening. Wonder how much slower it would be in a "real" environment in FB.

22kph might not sound like a lot, but it is. Would make for a lot of difference in E retention, climb, dive, and zoom.

Combine that with the lack of proper roll, hideous gun spread that throws abot 80-90% of hte lead wide, high, and low all simultaneously, it's weak engine and that snap stall (and the lack of controllable wastegate and lack of thousands marker on the altimeter, and all planes dive accelerating at almost the same rate)....... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Not acceptable.

Oleg is too damned nationalistic and stubborn to accept the truth, as Chimp is also learning. It's damn shame this is currently the best thing going. I hope someone decides to gather the resources and do it right.

Oleg won't even say _why_ he did it this way. This super secret soviet data crap is really old.



Currently the P-47 is the best it's been yet and it's competitive. This is not about wanting an ├┼ôber plane or noob plane. I don't turn fight. I just want this plane done right. So do so many other people. While I am pleased it is now highly competitive, it's still so disappointing that it's so far off base.

I'll fly it. But only because I have no other choice. Oleg Maddox has zero fan loyalty from me however. Fist chance I get to jump ship to something else, I'm gone. I hope others do the same. Leave this place to the red-whiners, ameri-haters, and Oleg-worshippers since he obviously won't listen to a damn thing (at that includes NACA).

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:42 AM
no wonder there are ameri-haters when you see how some americans behave...

BTW, you can take this for yourself...

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:07 AM
Along this vein does anyone notice that the prop cannot go faster than about 2700 RPM in level flight although combat setting is supposed to be 3000 RPM?

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:28 AM
DDT, the inflight speeds match what is said on the object viewer. The data in object viewer are in accusation of being erroneous, but in most cases they derive from typos.

Besides the fact, the D-27 and D-30 variants are indeed slower than the D-10 and D-11. the bubble-top and addition of pylons reduce the top speed by about 5mph.

As there is no way for one to confirm the wind directions within the game, during speed testing "no winds" is essential. The existence of wind or not, will not change a plane's FM - it will cause minor effect and discrepancies within the testing conditons. Someone could go against a headwind and claim the results are slightly slower than it should be. Others may ride the wind and be able to say the results are slightly slower than it should be. Typically, the wind, in my experience, effects the speed ranges by +/- 10km/h max.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:32 AM
Also, I admit I've seen differing records for the sea-level speed of P-47Ds. I don't recall the exact sources at the moment, but a quick search through the net seems to suggest there is largely two different claims - one being the S/L speeds quoted at 333mph max or so, and the other, just like DDT says, quoting 350mph.

333mph would be about 541km/h - probably Oleg chose this claimed data set over the 350mph claim. Interestingly, another WW2 air combat game Aces High, also uses the 333mph max data.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:59 AM
kweassa, how can you be testing the max level accel when you start from a dive?


I love the Jug too, and I'll join in to say it feels sluggish, but I'm befuddled as to the mechanics of your testing...

Stenciled on the side of my Dora:

"Lasst das H├┬Âllentor ├┬Âffen, es friert hier oben!"
("Leave the gates to Hell open, it's FREEZING up here!")

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:16 AM
why don't you use il2compare? Youss made a wonderful job with this program, you should use it instead of making your own measures...



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:19 AM
Because, essentially the top speed of the plane is the same at given altitude whether it reached it by level accel, or by dive accel. A dive accel would give it momentarily much higher speeds, but it settles down to its maximum possible speed after a certain time.

I know what you are thinking. Its not what you think.

The final results are from a prolonged state of level flight, not measured immediately after a dive. The dive/level/record method is there because generally, level accelling the plane to the desired maximum speed of target altitude takes a long time. It takes considerable time to set up each of the control surface's trims to perfect level flight, and that process really takes up time.

As it is, you would get the same results whether you let a plane accelerate in pure level condition at a given alt, or let it dive to the target alt and wait till the speedometer settles down and remains immobile.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:37 AM
as i said :

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/comp_p47.jpg


<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:21 AM
kweassa wrote:
- With that method, I've reached 542km/h at 13m,

That's pretty much spot on for the D-10.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:23 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Combine that with the lack of proper roll,

On the D-10 it still likely rolls too fast
below 400kph! It seems about right for 500kph
(5 deg/sec too slow, perhaps).

- Oleg is too damned nationalistic and stubborn to
- accept the truth,

That seems a weak argument. After all the B239
and P39 are overmodelled in some areas, which
undermines the nationalistic claim.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:25 AM
PlaneEater wrote:
- kweassa, how can you be testing the max level accel
- when you start from a dive?

He's not testing the acceleration, just the speed
at steady state! Diving to get the speed up just
saves time rather than waiting for it to get up
to speed.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:25 AM
kweassa wrote:
- 333mph would be about 541km/h - probably Oleg chose
- this claimed data set over the 350mph claim.
- Interestingly, another WW2 air combat game Aces
- High, also uses the 333mph max data.

Wow - I didn't know HiTech was an anti-American Russian
too :-)

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:39 AM
IL2Compare looks very interesting - must check it out. If it draws on parameters held within the application it would have to be a better indicator of "in-sim" ideal behaviour than the other various testing methods used so far.

One thing regarding P47 in FB (not getting into the general performance debate) - in this simulation the aircraft is a lend lease item, maintained by Russian ground crew (did they get a great deal of training support from the US?) and using Fuel and lubricants available in-theatre.
Under such circumstances wouldn't it be a long stretch to expect the plane to perform as well as if it were serviced by a US ground crew with all the latest equipment?
I'm not dumping on the Russians here - it must have been very hard to maintain such complex machines with limited materials (especially spare parts, and engineering support from the manufacturer when required).

Though its probably not feasible (or even really worthwhile) to implement in the sim - what about modelling somewhat improved performance for the P47 [more closely matching the various western sources] - when its being operated by USAAF crews?

Salute

Athos



"When first under fire and you're wishful to duck, don't look nor take heed at the man that is struck, be thankful you're living, and trust to your luck, and face to your front like a soldier"
ex. Rudyard Kipling

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 01:02 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-- BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-- Combine that with the lack of proper roll,
-
- On the D-10 it still likely rolls too fast
- below 400kph! It seems about right for 500kph
- (5 deg/sec too slow, perhaps).

Referring to the Bubble Top.


-- Oleg is too damned nationalistic and stubborn to
-- accept the truth,
-
- That seems a weak argument. After all the B239
- and P39 are overmodelled in some areas, which
- undermines the nationalistic claim.

I've pointed out all the reasons too many times to go through it again. The P-39 was liked by the VVS, it's no surprise it's modeled so optimistically.

The Brewster is still too slow from what I've been reading. It's only agile. Not much more. And much of that probably comes from the nature of the code base, just getting bene's from other similar planes.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Where can I get the IL2 compare program?
Thanks
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:15 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- AaronGT wrote:
--- BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
--- Combine that with the lack of proper roll,
--
-- On the D-10 it still likely rolls too fast
-- below 400kph! It seems about right for 500kph
-- (5 deg/sec too slow, perhaps).
-
- Referring to the Bubble Top.

I was just pointing that your paranoia is a little
silly, since two thirds of the P47s roll more-or-less
correctly. I don't think that Oleg has deliberately,
through some perceived anti-US bias, hobbled just
the D27. Get a grip!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:31 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzkbg


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:06 PM
il2compare is available from a link in vow public forum, or in a link in il2fb forum at checksix webnsite...

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>