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View Full Version : Shay is so ignorant! (spoilers for AC Rogue)



king-hailz
11-18-2014, 09:26 AM
This is purely my opinion! I was really excited to play since I heard so much about shay being a great protagonist and it's great story! But this is how I felt at the end.

Shay is by far the most ignorant assassin/templar yet! He thought achilles wanted to see people die! Just because it happened in Haiti does not mean it will happen everywhere! So achilles looked to Lisbon and the same thing happened there! Achilles would have then realised without Shay, that's why at the end he left it!

Shay killed all the assassins because achilles made a mistake! Shay says he doesn't like killing innocents and that he is noble! How about when haytham killed that guard even though the guard told them what they wanted to know (that was sick! The way Shay said if you don't tell he will kill you, they made him believe he would live and killed him!). He was innocent and his blood splattered on shays face and he didn't care!

Even if the assassins were wrong he should have known to help them and make them understand that they are doing wrong! He knows the tenants of the creed! One of them is to not kill innocents!

The templars kill so many innocents I mean later on they burn down a native American village! So why doesn't shay betray them and start killing them!

Shay was brainwashed by the Templars, from this game I understand that the templars trick people into joining them by being overly friendly and saying things that aren't true! Haytham should have told shay why he needed the box but if he did do you really think he would agree...

I still think the story was better than ACU because at least it had some impact to the series and some characters were really great especially in the modern day! They were all so well made I think. Especially violet and melaney.

However the best thing about this game is that it makes me like ac3 more! And this is now my list!

AC2 (10/10)
ACR/AC4 (9.5/10)
AC1/ACB (9/10)
AC3/ACU/ACRogue (8.5/10)

In comparison this was my list before

AC2 (10/10)
ACR/AC4 (9.5/10)
AC1/ACB (9/10)
ACU (8.5/10)
AC3 (8/10)

If you want to know the difference it's that now I think AC3 is as good as ACU. However I don't think they are both as good as AC1/ACB.

And rogue is there because of the problems I described even though it does some things very right that need to be in the next installments!

Tell me your thoughts on all this, since obviously everyone's own personality and preference will change what they think about events that occur throughout the game so share!

king-hailz
11-18-2014, 10:56 AM
Anybody???

DaveyNorton
11-18-2014, 10:59 AM
I feel things just spiralled way out of control, because everyone, including Shay, got incredibly hotheaded after the Lisbon incident.

But I don't think we can really blame Shay for it. He obviously suffered from a major PTSD and what did Achilles do? Instead of sitting down with him and talking it out, he shut his door in front of his face, called him a traitor and tried to kill him.

Also, Shay doesn't really become the "Assassin hunter" at any point. He never makes a list and goes head hunting. Initially, he tries to lay low, help the people in New York and Monro (and rightly so, as Monro comes across as a genuine good guy and Shay is indebted to him after all). At this point, he eventually warms up to Templars. It's only after Assassins find out he's alive, Shay realizes that he can't hold back anymore as they no doubt come for him. And even after that he openly shows regret and tries to give Assassins a chance.

As for Templars killing innocents too, I feel Shay doesn't really think that Templars are superior and on moral high ground. It's more like Shay rather realizes the lack of difference between the two groups and believes that at that point he can do more good in the Templar colors. We need to remember that the Lisbon incident was rather a breaking point, a last straw, than the one and only thing that made Shay turn his back. Shay openly criticized and questioned Assassins' other actions way before that and the story gives him even more reasons to stay in the Templar camp after the betrayal.

Also, Shay never goes around shouting about enslaving the humanity and robbing it of the free will. I find him more in line with moderate, enlightened Templars. He wants order, not slavery of mind.

"If everything is permitted, how can anyone be safe?"

king-hailz
11-18-2014, 11:38 AM
I feel things just spiralled way out of control, because everyone, including Shay, got incredibly hotheaded after the Lisbon incident.

But I don't think we can really blame Shay for it. He obviously suffered from a major PTSD and what did Achilles do? Instead of sitting down with him and talking it out, he shut his door in front of his face, called him a traitor and tried to kill him.

Also, Shay doesn't really become the "Assassin hunter" at any point. He never makes a list and goes head hunting. Initially, he tries to lay low, help the people in New York and Monro (and rightly so, as Monro comes across as a genuine good guy and Shay is indebted to him after all). At this point, he eventually warms up to Templars. It's only after Assassins find out he's alive, Shay realizes that he can't hold back anymore as they no doubt come for him. And even after that he openly shows regret and tries to give Assassins a chance.

As for Templars killing innocents too, I feel Shay doesn't really think that Templars are superior and on moral high ground. It's more like Shay rather realizes the lack of difference between the two groups and believes that at that point he can do more good in the Templar colors. We need to remember that the Lisbon incident was rather a breaking point, a last straw, than the one and only thing that made Shay turn his back. Shay openly criticized and questioned Assassins' other actions way before that and the story gives him even more reasons to stay in the Templar camp after the betrayal.

Also, Shay never goes around shouting about enslaving the humanity and robbing it of the free will. I find him more in line with moderate, enlightened Templars. He wants order, not slavery of mind.

"If everything is permitted, how can anyone be safe?"

Yes but at the end shay says he is a templar officially! He doesn't see that hundreds of templar kill innocents and don't regret it and he doesn't stop them but when one assassin makes a mistake he goes completely berserk. It doesn't make sense that he leaves the assassins for the templars knowing his personal opinions.

Riku_Kurosaki15
11-18-2014, 03:45 PM
I've been wondering something about AC Rogue's story. You know how in game the games of Liberation and other games produced by Abstergo Entertainment are heavily censored/edited to show the Templars in a more positive light and portray the assassin order as a bunch of cold blooded murderers? Does anyone thing this is the same thing going on in Rogue? I was half expecting there to be a part in the game where Erudito shows up again and he hacks the Helix servers and we see the story for what is really going on.

cawatrooper9
11-18-2014, 04:10 PM
I've been wondering something about AC Rogue's story. You know how in game the games of Liberation and other games produced by Abstergo Entertainment are heavily censored/edited to show the Templars in a more positive light and portray the assassin order as a bunch of cold blooded murderers? Does anyone thing this is the same thing going on in Rogue? I was half expecting there to be a part in the game where Erudito shows up again and he hacks the Helix servers and we see the story for what is really going on.

I don't think that's the case, because this isn't a game ready for release yet, like Liberation was- you're collecting Shay's raw memories, which is why your employers are so excited.

In response to OP, I think that the conflict in the story is one of ideals. Achilles sees potential in the POEs, enough that the risk in obtaining them is justified. Shay doesn't see that risk as being justified (which is actually a much more humanitarian and relateable approach.)

I suppose what bothered me is the fact that Shay is the only protagonist who is able to kill civilians in gameplay- however, he's also the protagonist for whom this strategy makes the least amount of sense for. We know that Altair and Ezio killed civilians, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that Edward did at one point or another, too. It's strange that doing so in gameplay with them, then, desynchs you, but it can be done with Shay (who is so staunchly against it).

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 04:39 PM
Shay is by far the most ignorant assassin/templar yet! He thought achilles wanted to see people die! Just because it happened in Haiti does not mean it will happen everywhere! So achilles looked to Lisbon and the same thing happened there! Achilles would have then realised without Shay, that's why at the end he left it!

The running theme of Assassin's Creed: Rogue is the Assassins are blindly self-righteous and this is a theme which has been present throughout the game. Altair misses that he's serving a Templar because he follows an evil Mentor until he rebels. Except, Altair then REINFORCES the idea the Mentor is not to be questioned. Ezio murders an innocent man in Revelations because he is so blindly confident of his conclusions. Connor kills a bunch of people in the Templar cause out of ignorance and probably hastens the deportation of Native Peoples as well as prolongs the Revolutionary War.

Shay's accusation *****les Achilles' pride but the latter immediately SHUTS HIM DOWN and says the earthquake is Shay's fault. He then says, when they have their fight, he intends to CONTINUE to seek the Pieces of Eden regardless of what Shay is saying. Given these pieces are, specifically, earthquake causing devices (one is a coincidence, two is a pattern) which cause them just by touching them....Achilles' actions are insane.

The thing is, he's not evil. Achilles, however, believes he's right because he's an Assassin.

Altair's flaw was arrogance and it got innocents killed. Sadly, he passed it down to his disciples.

Shay's problems with the Assassins aren't just the above either. During Sequence 1, Shay brings up the fact the Assassins are waging an eternal war against the Templars. Shay believes peace is possible if they just talked like reasonable human beings. Shay also thinks its insane the Assassins are supporting the French against the British while working against the French in Haiti. This isn't their war but they've involved themselves in it despite the fact they're helping slavers for dubious moral reasons. Shay also is disgusted when the Assassins have him murder two Templars who are helpless old men and then call it great victories. The Assassins have deluded them into believing being a Templar is the most EVIL thing a person can do.

Which Shay doesn't believe as he meets some decent Templars who want to help the poor and destitute of New York.

People the Assassins are targeting with gangs and murderers because, HEY, they're Templars.


Even if the assassins were wrong he should have known to help them and make them understand that they are doing wrong! He knows the tenants of the creed! One of them is to not kill innocents!

Shay isn't acting rationally but Achilles orders him killed when he tries to steal the book to destroy. None of the Assassins hesitate to murder their friend on the Mentor's command. It's kind of sick.


The templars kill so many innocents I mean later on they burn down a native American village! So why doesn't shay betray them and start killing them!

Shay isn't on Team Assassin or Team Templar, really, he's on Team Innocent. He's trying to save as many as possible and doesn't care about the war between them. He's sort of a Templar by default.



I suppose what bothered me is the fact that Shay is the only protagonist who is able to kill civilians in gameplay- however, he's also the protagonist for whom this strategy makes the least amount of sense for. We know that Altair and Ezio killed civilians, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that Edward did at one point or another, too. It's strange that doing so in gameplay with them, then, desynchs you, but it can be done with Shay (who is so staunchly against it).

That is pretty damn bizarre.

Of course, it might just be Abstergo tech is interacting with things. :

Number_Six_1967
11-18-2014, 05:24 PM
As another poster points out, Shay had already shown a disconcerted voice while a part of the Assassin's Order. He was obviously of the mind that one group wasn't necessarily better than the other. He made the switch only after feeling like he'd been pushed too. If you take into account he wasn't really assisting the Templars once he'd left the Assassins, but simply trying to use their knowhow to aid the general population, you can see that he was beyond secular allegiance. It was only after seeing someone he had come to trust, the Colonel, be killed by Liam that he chose to jump directly into bed with The Templars. The Lisbon incident gave Shay the idea that messing with properties beyond human understanding was a bad idea all round. As the player, we know the Templars are up to no good in their search for First Civilisation technology, but Shay didn't, nor was it ever mentioned throughout Rogue. Arguably, the Templars and Assassins of the past were of a more innocent mindset, in that they were merely carrying on the politics of old before technology and world economies came into play. I imagine Haytham and his ilk would be rather appalled at what Abstergo had become in the modern age, even given their own sometimes devious and murderous ways.

It comes down to whether or not you think this tale was told well enough in game. Rogue is short, and could have been a few sequences longer to fully flesh out Shay traversing from disassociated youth to full on, mature Templar Knight - his final form at the end of the game. I'd say Rogue managed to do a decent job but it could have done better. In saying that, as with all the AC games, years or months are passed over in a blink and you are often left to fill in the gaps.

Given this is a spoiler thread... *read no further if you're creeping in here!* anyone want to see Connor v Shay? I think one of the modern day info files mentions 'the mess around' Connor's death.

I wonder....

RinoTheBouncer
11-18-2014, 05:30 PM
To be perfectly honest, I did love AC:Ro and Shay himself, yet I thought just because you had a falling out with the Assassins doesn’t mean that your next step is allying with the Templars. I mean you can just be a ‘Rogue’ warrior and set things right on both sides, that would’ve been great and also a morally gray story because it shows a look on the wrongs of both sides.

So I do agree with this thread.

On the other hand, I must admit that Shay didn’t go on a killing spree, at least not the way the announcement trailer made him sound like. He always tried to reason with his targets and was sort of apologetic, like he had no other choice, unlike Haytham who killed people multiple times (in ACIII and AC:Ro) whom he (or his companions) promised to let go if they talk. I loved that Shay was his own man, even when he became a Templar, he wasn’t owned by the Templars or changed. But I just felt like it would’ve been better if they didn’t make him a Templar, but rather a rogue warrior, righting whatever’s wrong on both sides.

JustPlainQuirky
11-18-2014, 05:48 PM
To be perfectly honest, I did love AC:Ro and Shay himself, yet I thought just because you had a falling out with the Assassins doesn’t mean that your next step is allying with the Templars. I mean you can just be a ‘Rogue’ warrior and set things right on both sides, that would’ve been great and also a morally gray story because it shows a look on the wrongs of both sides.

Just a reminder Shay didn't seek out the templars after that incident. He was rescued by them and stuck with them to repay a debt while achieving his own means.

He didn't see that his ways matched with the templars until over a year of time with them.

Namikaze_17
11-18-2014, 05:54 PM
I kinda question Achilles in a way...

If he knew a similar event happened in Haiti, he must've known a little of what the artifacts were capable of.

So the fact he risked his own "brother" and an entire city again makes me question his leadership.

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 06:03 PM
I kinda question Achilles in a way...

If he knew a similar event happened in Haiti, he must've known a little of what the artifacts were capable of.

So the fact he risked his own "brother" and an entire city again makes me question his leadership.

Achilles had just lost his family and I think it was implied he threw himself into his work as an Assassin to compensate.

Of course, being told you're history's greatest mass murderer by a man you think of as a son is never going to go over well.

He doubled down on being right because being wrong was....unacceptable.

It would make him worse than any Templars until Abstergo's WW2 Council

Number_Six_1967
11-18-2014, 06:04 PM
I suppose the point is that Achilles, and the Templars, are so entrenched in the one upmanship of the Assassins v Templar fight that sense is largely being ignored. I think even Juno mentioned such in AC3 when she stated that for all the the time the two factions had been arguing they could have been working together to solve the world's problems. As others have said, perhaps Shay acting completely aside to both Templars and Assassins might have been a great way to go. In having Edward and Connor use the Assassins to piggyback their own causes and Shay negating either side we could have seen a real external element to the fight, with it then all being brought back by AC: Unity.

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 06:08 PM
To be perfectly honest, I did love AC:Ro and Shay himself, yet I thought just because you had a falling out with the Assassins doesn’t mean that your next step is allying with the Templars. I mean you can just be a ‘Rogue’ warrior and set things right on both sides, that would’ve been great and also a morally gray story because it shows a look on the wrongs of both sides.

So I do agree with this thread.


Eh, I think Shay was sold on the Templars because he took them as the option for civilization and order versus the Assassin's always standing for Anarchy, The big thing Rogue points out isn't the Assassins are just as bad as the Templars.

It points out the two sides should be judged as individuals rather than as groups.

Which is so blindingly obvious, I'm confused why it didn't come up before.

In the end, Shay joins the Templars because they help him help the innocent and because he likes some of them. He's a Templar by default.

Namikaze_17
11-18-2014, 06:14 PM
Achilles had just lost his family and I think it was implied he threw himself into his work as an Assassin to compensate.

Of course, being told you're history's greatest mass murderer by a man you think of as a son is never going to go over well.

He doubled down on being right because being wrong was....unacceptable.

It would make him worse than any Templars until Abstergo's WW2 Council

But it still doesn't justify him though...

Like Shay said, there was no level to the mad lengths Achilles was willing to take to defeat the Templars.

Hood2theBurbs
11-18-2014, 06:30 PM
Hold on, In think some people here are assigning Achilles with too much blame here.

The Assassins have no clue that the earthquake in Haiti and the precursor sites were linked. The man they had sent there never returned to warn them. Nor does Achilles claim that the earthquake is Shay's fault. Shay is the one who runs in screaming and pointing fingers. Achilles does not make the situation ant better by dismissing him but both side are to blame and ultimately its just a huge misunderstanding. That sets the downfall of the Colonial Assassins in motion, the one thing I really like about this is the fact that you can really see why Achilles is so jaded when he first meets Connor.

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 06:39 PM
Hold on, In think some people here are assigning Achilles with too much blame here.

The Assassins have no clue that the earthquake in Haiti and the precursor sites were linked. The man they had sent there never returned to warn them. Nor does Achilles claim that the earthquake is Shay's fault. Shay is the one who runs in screaming and pointing fingers. Achilles does not make the situation ant better by dismissing him but both side are to blame and ultimately its just a huge misunderstanding. That sets the downfall of the Colonial Assassins in motion, the one thing I really like about this is the fact that you can really see why Achilles is so jaded when he first meets Connor.

Shay says that the Pieces of Eden caused the Earthquake and then Achilles says that Shay must have done something wrong. He then gives him an epic speech when Shay is robbing them that Shay is a disappointment, a traitor, and they will find the Pieces of Eden to shape the future.

There's something seriously twisted when the Templars are helping the common people build better lives through urban renewal like Ezio in Rome while the Assassins are allied with brutal thugs oppressing the people too.

gnosis_guyver1
11-18-2014, 07:34 PM
Shay says that the Pieces of Eden caused the Earthquake and then Achilles says that Shay must have done something wrong. He then gives him an epic speech when Shay is robbing them that Shay is a disappointment, a traitor, and they will find the Pieces of Eden to shape the future.

There's something seriously twisted when the Templars are helping the common people build better lives through urban renewal like Ezio in Rome while the Assassins are allied with brutal thugs oppressing the people too.

indeed Hopes thugs were extorting people with protection rackets, reselling essential goods at ten times the price etc. basically the assassins made thugs into better killers simply cause they needed help and influence hell some of there speeches indicated these guys were not nice people one in random npc conversation was talking about making his own empire. have the assassins forgotten they must work with the people not against them. Also some assassins were insane with hatred like mackandal

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 07:41 PM
indeed Hopes thugs were extorting people with protection rackets, reselling essential goods at ten times the price etc. basically the assassins made thugs into better killers simply cause they needed help and influence hell some of there speeches indicated these guys were not nice people one in random npc conversation was talking about making his own empire. have the assassins forgotten they must work with the people not against them. Also some assassins were insane with hatred like mackandal

And when that happens, what's the difference between the Assassins and Templars?

Not very much.

gnosis_guyver1
11-18-2014, 07:47 PM
Its why i like templars like Haytham they see anyone violating the templar orders principles there dead meat like benjamin church. It seems the assassin in the colonies had the hey were freeing them they should sacrifice a little for us eh no Ezio said it best those who do not volunteer should not be forced into the battle

Hood2theBurbs
11-18-2014, 09:16 PM
Shay says that the Pieces of Eden caused the Earthquake and then Achilles says that Shay must have done something wrong. He then gives him an epic speech when Shay is robbing them that Shay is a disappointment, a traitor, and they will find the Pieces of Eden to shape the future.

There's something seriously twisted when the Templars are helping the common people build better lives through urban renewal like Ezio in Rome while the Assassins are allied with brutal thugs oppressing the people too.

Yeah you're right he does imply that Shay may have messed up, got me there. I actually like the idea of the Templars using urban renewal, because it increases their influence behind the scenes and provides them with more income, and that's the one thing that defines the Templars is that they always have money and now we have some context to how they get so wealthy.

Layytez
11-18-2014, 09:54 PM
Yeah Shay is very ignorant. The second he sad "you made me slaughter innocents I was like"
http://www.dumbdrops.com/ratchet-memes/templates/Kevin_Hart.jpg
How in the hell did he make you do that ? As if it was his intention for you to cause an earthquake. After that all I saw Shay as was a man child.

Charles_Phipps
11-18-2014, 11:04 PM
Yeah Shay is very ignorant. The second he sad "you made me slaughter innocents I was like"
http://www.dumbdrops.com/ratchet-memes/templates/Kevin_Hart.jpg
How in the hell did he make you do that ? As if it was his intention for you to cause an earthquake. After that all I saw Shay as was a man child.

I, on the other hand, note there's no way to calmly explain you accidentally caused the worst man-made disaster in human history and an event which rivaled Pompeii.

Crazy Homeless GuyTM ramblings or not, Shay was attempting to impress the gravity of the event.

Really, it fell to Achilles to be the wise one since that's, literally, his job.

king-hailz
11-19-2014, 11:46 AM
I read it all and we'll it's still true. Shay doesn't have a sound reason to join the templars. It makes me wonder does Shay learn the true ways of the templars and forget about the innocents at the end when he is a templar. When haytham tells him to get the box no matter what does Shay just agree and kill the assassins like Charles for no reason.

The ending of shay makes no sense since he is sometimes not on both sides and at the end he says he is a full blown templar! The assassins were definitely wrong in this game! However Shay doesn't see the true reason behind it! I really do think shay is ignorant. When he realises that he was wrong to go in that room screaming at achilles he doesn't want to show his face so he just ignores it all..

Charles_Phipps
11-19-2014, 12:34 PM
I read it all and we'll it's still true. Shay doesn't have a sound reason to join the templars. It makes me wonder does Shay learn the true ways of the templars and forget about the innocents at the end when he is a templar. When haytham tells him to get the box no matter what does Shay just agree and kill the assassins like Charles for no reason.

Shay has a very good reason for joining the Templars.



Shay leaves the Assassins because of Lisbon but JOINS the Templars because of Colonel Monro. Colonel Monro is sincere in his belief the Templars are not about power but using power to help the people beneath them. Shay has decided he's going to fight for the "little guy" and things have become screwed-up enough the Templars are looking like the guys who are doing it. After all, the Templars are doing what Ezio did in Rome by eliminating the thugs persecuting the populace and renovating the buildings so people can live normal lives.

By the time, the Assassins had already tried to kill him and were allied with local gangs as well as the French. Both groups which were victimizing the people of New York.

Shay joins the Templars because he's trying to help people and thinks the Assassins are making the world a worse place.