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View Full Version : Arno vs. Shay - which is the more interesting protagonist?



Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 03:50 AM
So, for those of us who have played both, which do we prefer?

Right now, I'm loving Shay.

I think he's a great-great character.

Very conflicted and devoted to doing the right thing but in a situation where that's not really possible.

Arno, by contrast, is just too Frenchzio.

No real unique identity.

I don't think Arno is going to be able to carry multiple games like Ubisoft probably wanted.

rprkjj
11-15-2014, 04:07 AM
So, for those of us who have played both, which do we prefer?

Right now, I'm loving Shay.

I think he's a great-great character.

Very conflicted and devoted to doing the right thing but in a situation where that's not really possible.

Arno, by contrast, is just too Frenchzio.

No real unique identity.

I don't think Arno is going to be able to carry multiple games like Ubisoft probably wanted.

Haven't played Rogue, but I would have agreed with you about Arno at the start. As the story progresses, he strikes me as a more clever and dedicated character than Ezio. I see shades of both Altair and Ezio in him, he actually turned out to be well rounded along the way. Not sure if I like him better than Edward though.

JustPlainQuirky
11-15-2014, 04:27 AM
SHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Shay is love, Shay is life.

Shay would have change for a 20.

I-Like-Pie45
11-15-2014, 04:30 AM
Shay makes you wet, doesn't he, Mayrice? ;)

X_xWolverinEx_X
11-15-2014, 04:31 AM
Shay makes you wet, doesn't he, Mayrice? ;)

wow slow down there captain planet

JustPlainQuirky
11-15-2014, 04:32 AM
Boy, that escalated quickly.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 04:34 AM
I wouldn't be adverse to another Shay game.

I-Like-Pie45
11-15-2014, 04:34 AM
Heehee Mayrice... chop chop...

X_xWolverinEx_X
11-15-2014, 04:35 AM
http://i.imgur.com/oZbFzDs.jpg

Hood2theBurbs
11-15-2014, 04:38 AM
Shay is far more memorable, he's his own man as opposed to Arno who is too busy chasing after his homicidal girlfriend.

Namikaze_17
11-15-2014, 05:50 AM
Shay.

Why? Because Shay is his own man...

He doesn't necessarily follow the Assassins or Templars in a sense, but his own set of principles to benefit Mankind. Even at the beginning, you can actually see him being a true believer of the Creed's tenets and what they meant to seeing the harsh reality of what it does to the world.

"If everything is permitted, how is anyone truly safe?"

Even though I think they could've gone deeper in his transition to a Templar, I did however feel that he still remained Shay. He didn't turn into a heartless killer like Kratos, nor did he become a "Posterboy" for the Templars...he was still himself. All of this was clear when he still hesitated to kill those he once called brother.
( Especially Hope & Liam)

He didn't want to do it, but he knew he had to do it as he knew it would benefit the greater good.
( As seen with the white room speeches)

So yes, some things here and there could've been better, but I actually thought Shay lived to his potential and really presented the Templars well.

Layytez
11-15-2014, 05:56 AM
I still can't find the justification in Shay's actions. The way they described it was the Assassins knew or planned to do something bad when in reality they didn't even know That the artifacts caused earthquakes. Instead of Shay to say "hey guys we need to be careful. That place was bad business" he outright goes ner ner ner you made me do this as if they knew that would happen. You can see at the end they didn't know it would happen. Shays lack of patience really annoyed me and for him to go straight to betrayal is nonsense.

MakimotoJin
11-15-2014, 05:58 AM
Shay.

Why? Because Shay is his own man...

He doesn't necessarily follow the Assassins or Templars in a sense, but his own set of principles to benefit Mankind. Even at the beginning, you can actually see him being a true believer of the Creed's tenets and what they meant to seeing the harsh reality of what it does to the world.

"If everything is permitted, how is anyone truly safe?"

Even though I think they could've gone deeper in his transition to a Templar, I did however feel that he still remained Shay. He didn't turn into a heartless killer like Kratos, nor did he become a "Posterboy" for the Templars...he was still himself. All of this was clear when he still hesitated to kill those he called brother.
( Especially Hope & Liam)

He didn't want to do it, but he knew he had to do it as he knew it would benefit the greater good.
( As seen with the white room speeches)

So yes, some things here and there could've been better, but I actually thought Shay lived to his potential and really presented the Templars well.

I also liked how his personality changed from the beginning to the end.When he's not a Templar nor Assassin,he makes a joke here and there,laughs a bit,but after facing all of the choices he had to,he just looks dead serious.In Versailles,for example,his face when talking to Charles is just......O-O

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 06:06 AM
I still can't find the justification in Shay's actions. The way they described it was the Assassins knew or planned to do something bad when in reality they didn't even know That the artifacts caused earthquakes. Instead of Shay to say "hey guys we need to be careful. That place was bad business" he outright goes ner ner ner you made me do this as if they knew that would happen. You can see at the end they didn't know it would happen. Shays lack of patience really annoyed me and for him to go straight to betrayal is nonsense.

Shay was unimpressed with the Assassins from the very beginning. During the first hour of the game, he asks a bunch of pointed questions.

1. If we're servants of freedom, why do we do everything we're told by the Mentor without question?
2. Why are we supporting the French against the British if the French are slavers we're killing in Haiti?
3. Why are the Assassins killing Templars endlessly versus trying to find some peaceful accord with them?

3# is really interesting because you wouldn't think violent thief and murderer Shay would be the one to bring that up but he seems to assume the Templars are reasonable the same way the Assassins are.

The response he gets for 3# is the Templars are murderers who try to control the Pieces of Eden and influence world politics.

Which Shay says, more or less, "Yeah, because we don't do any of that."

The Assassins are coming across as a bunch of mindless fanatics to him even as he's personally friends with a lot of them.

Namikaze_17
11-15-2014, 06:09 AM
I still can't find the justification in Shay's actions. The way they described it was the Assassins knew or planned to do something bad when in reality they didn't even know That the artifacts caused earthquakes. Instead of Shay to say "hey guys we need to be careful. That place was bad business" he outright goes ner ner ner you made me do this as if they knew that would happen. You can see at the end they didn't know it would happen. Shays lack of patience really annoyed me and for him to go straight to betrayal is nonsense.

Yeah, that aspect could've been better.

However, I interpreted it as that he had a hard awakening about what the "Assassins Creed" really does to Humanity.

Sure they didn't know, but they should've expected the danger of its power and kept stopping the Templars from getting it. But instead they get power hungry and indirectly caused the death of innocent citizens. And THAT is what made Shay act the way he did.



"If everything is permitted, how is anyone truly safe?"

Right or wrong, the Assassins killed innocents. Which was what questioned in the first place.

Layytez
11-15-2014, 06:10 AM
Shay was unimpressed with the Assassins from the very beginning. During the first hour of the game, he asks a bunch of pointed questions.

1. If we're servants of freedom, why do we do everything we're told by the Mentor without question?
2. Why are we supporting the French against the British if the French are slavers we're killing in Haiti?
3. Why are the Assassins killing Templars endlessly versus trying to find some peaceful accord with them?

3# is really interesting because you wouldn't think violent thief and murderer Shay would be the one to bring that up but he seems to assume the Templars are reasonable the same way the Assassins are.

The response he gets for 3# is the Templars are murderers who try to control the Pieces of Eden and influence world politics.

Which Shay says, more or less, "Yeah, because we don't do any of that."

The Assassins are coming across as a bunch of mindless fanatics to him even as he's personally friends with a lot of them.
The transition just felt off to me tbh. It felt like they purposely made them clueless and made it look like Shay can't control his emotions.


Yeah, that aspect could've been better.

However, I interpreted it as that he had a hard awakening about what the "Assassins Creed" really does to Humanity.

Sure they didn't know, but they should've expected the danger of its power and kept stopping the Templars from getting it. But instead they get power hungry and indirectly cause the death of thousands. And THAT is what made Shay act the way he did.



"If everything is permitted, how is anyone truly safe?"

Right or wrong, the Assassins killed innocents. Which was what questioned in the first place.
I would have felt better if he remained neutral. The jump to betrayal was too drastic for me.

MakimotoJin
11-15-2014, 06:13 AM
Shay was unimpressed with the Assassins from the very beginning. During the first hour of the game, he asks a bunch of pointed questions.

1. If we're servants of freedom, why do we do everything we're told by the Mentor without question?
2. Why are we supporting the French against the British if the French are slavers we're killing in Haiti?
3. Why are the Assassins killing Templars endlessly versus trying to find some peaceful accord with them?

3# is really interesting because you wouldn't think violent thief and murderer Shay would be the one to bring that up but he seems to assume the Templars are reasonable the same way the Assassins are.

The response he gets for 3# is the Templars are murderers who try to control the Pieces of Eden and influence world politics.

Which Shay says, more or less, "Yeah, because we don't do any of that."

The Assassins are coming across as a bunch of mindless fanatics to him even as he's personally friends with a lot of them.

I feel sorry for Shay.Lost his father,but found his childhood friend.Joined the Assassins for Liam,but ended up realizing they are doing wrong things.Joined a better way for peace,but has to betray everyone he knew.

Hood2theBurbs
11-15-2014, 06:17 AM
I still can't find the justification in Shay's actions. The way they described it was the Assassins knew or planned to do something bad when in reality they didn't even know That the artifacts caused earthquakes. Instead of Shay to say "hey guys we need to be careful. That place was bad business" he outright goes ner ner ner you made me do this as if they knew that would happen. You can see at the end they didn't know it would happen. Shays lack of patience really annoyed me and for him to go straight to betrayal is nonsense.

Agree with you Hollow, it's very clear that the Assassin's had no idea about the

connection between the precursor sites and the earthquakes.

And Shay just barges in pointing fingers and screaming his head off. They rushed the whole betrayal thing if they had spent maybe another sequence with the Assassin's where you can see Shay becoming more and more discontent with the way the Assassin's go about there business it would have made the story better. I still like Shay but this whole plot point is done entirely wrong imo.

MakimotoJin
11-15-2014, 06:21 AM
Agree with you Hollow, it's very clear that the Assassin's had no idea about the

connection between the precursor sites and the earthquakes.

And Shay just barges in pointing fingers and screaming his head off. They rushed the whole betrayal thing if they had spent maybe another sequence with the Assassin's where you can see Shay becoming more and more discontent with the way the Assassin's go about there business it would have made the story better. I still like Shay but this whole plot point is done entirely wrong imo.

Shay's discontent with the Assassins goes at the start of the game.Listen to some dialogues he has with Liam.And when you see something wrong going even worse,you're gonna get angry and do something about it.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 06:21 AM
To be fair, I think Shay is not entirely in a rationale frame of mind.

He's responsible for killing more people than any other human being in history at that point.

At least, without an army.

I also think the Assassins would never stop going after the Pieces of Eden and he knows this. In Shay's case, he knows they can't be trusted with them given events.

Two Earthquakes is too many.

Layytez
11-15-2014, 06:23 AM
Agree with you Hollow, it's very clear that the Assassin's had no idea about the

connection between the precursor sites and the earthquakes.

And Shay just barges in pointing fingers and screaming his head off. They rushed the whole betrayal thing if they had spent maybe another sequence with the Assassin's where you can see Shay becoming more and more discontent with the way the Assassin's go about there business it would have made the story better. I still like Shay but this whole plot point is done entirely wrong imo.
Yeah I feel the exact same way. I thought the Assassins would genuinely be doing something bad that made sense with how we know them today.However as it is now the bad thing is a byproduct and isn't the intended goal. They thought Shay f****** up and that's why the "thing" happened. Rather for Shay to question and find out if that was intended he goes full rant mode. You could even see Achilles looked confused when Shay came barging in.


To be fair, I think Shay is not entirely in a rationale frame of mind.

He's responsible for killing more people than any other human being in history at that point.

At least, without an army.

I also think the Assassins would never stop going after the Pieces of Eden and he knows this. In Shay's case, he knows they can't be trusted with them given events.

Two Earthquakes is too many.
Kinda hypocritical for Shay to think that because to this day the Templars have been gunning for them the most.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 06:29 AM
Kinda hypocritical for Shay to think that because to this day the Templars have been gunning for them the most.

That's the irony of Shay's story, of course.

There's no winners in the Assassins versus Templars because both are corrupted by the Pieces of Eden and Juno.

I actually feel kind of bad for Altair because I have the theory his extensive Apple use warped his mind.

Hood2theBurbs
11-15-2014, 06:36 AM
@ Makimoto
I get what you're saying but at that point it really only seems like he's debating with Liam not so much expressing his discontent except when the French guy is involved. I'm simply saying the story would have benefited if it had one more sequence with Assassin's, one that focused on deepening Shay's relationship with Hope and Liam and possibly establishing one with Adewale while at the same time allowing the rift between Achilles, Kasegowaa(not sure if that's spelled right) and Shay to grow even wider. Just imagine the feels that could have resulted!

@Charles
I can understand that, he was obviously very traumatized by his experience and may have even suffered from some form of ptsd. Achilles didn't help either with his attitude which clearly stemmed from the loss his family but like Hollow said the betrayal just seems off and to me a bit rushed.

EDIT: The most important plot point becomes a misunderstanding between Shay and the Assassin's. Shay's betrayal results from his hot headed decision rather than a calculated one where it's clear that he doesn't like the way the Assassin's go about there business and that Templar philosophy suits him better.

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
11-15-2014, 07:41 AM
The ending to Rogue. Shay is boss. So, yeah, Shay. I do wish that they would've just made it that Shay actually agrees with the Templar philosophy more than with the Assassin philosophy instead of his decision to join the Templars being merely a decision AGAINST the Assassins. That'd be far more interesting. But, I gotta say. Ever since AC1, I've been waiting for a game with a Templar protagonist. Too bad Unity offers more than Rogue. Once Initiates starts working and recognizing my XP, I'll be wearing his outfit in Unity. Cuz, you know, Shay is boss.

Minsooky
11-15-2014, 12:00 PM
I don't particularly like Arno because he acts like some love-sick puppy. Loses all sense of reason because he's so infatuated with Elise. It just...weirds me out.

Shay is more interesting because he shows a different and less pleasant view of Assassins. He brings up important questions about both Templars and Assassins. Unity didn't really do much of that...

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 01:30 PM
@Charles
I can understand that, he was obviously very traumatized by his experience and may have even suffered from some form of ptsd. Achilles didn't help either with his attitude which clearly stemmed from the loss his family but like Hollow said the betrayal just seems off and to me a bit rushed.

EDIT: The most important plot point becomes a misunderstanding between Shay and the Assassin's. Shay's betrayal results from his hot headed decision rather than a calculated one where it's clear that he doesn't like the way the Assassin's go about there business and that Templar philosophy suits him better.

I dunno, I think that's a rather poignant bit of business too because Shay never chooses stability over freedom. Juhani thinks that Shay chose "order over freedom" when it's exactly the opposite. Shay chose to stop the Assassins because he believed they were a threat to humanity and he was trying to maneuver the situation to prevent further loss of collateral damage. Juhani is seeing Shay through the framework of Assassins versus Templars.

I think, in fact, the important thing to realize about Shay is he thinks the war between them is stupid. A plague on BOTH your houses, so to speak.

It's just Templars were where he ended up for the time being.

If the Templars went after the PoE to use them, Shay would turn on them too. He's a protector of the innocent and a Templar by necessity. The thing is, I'm not uncomfortable with that either because I think the Templars are more fluid in their philosophy.

The Borgias wanted power.
Haytham wanted stability.
Thomas Hickey and Duncan Wapole wanted cash.
de Sable wanted to remake the world via false miracles.

Shay wanting to protect the innocent via the Templars is no different from any other Templar using the organization for their own ends.

pirate1802
11-15-2014, 01:36 PM
Come on, that's not even a fair competition. :(

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 01:37 PM
Come on, that's not even a fair competition. :(

I do find it funny and kind of sad everyone likes Shay as the guy who was rushed out the door versus the guy they've been working on for half a decade.

Fatal-Feit
11-15-2014, 01:49 PM
Between the two, it's Shay. I mean, an Assassin turned Templar? It doesn't get more interesting than that.

However, I don't think Arno's a bad character, or uninteresting. It's just that he's basically in reminiscence of Ezio, except done right. And honestly, I'm grateful for that. I really like Arno, but Shay's the boss.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 01:51 PM
Between the two, it's Shay. I mean, an Assassin turned Templar? It doesn't get more interesting than that.

However, I don't think Arno's a bad character, or uninteresting. It's just that he's basically Ezio, except done right. And honestly, I'm grateful for that. I really like Arno, but Shay's the boss.

What's wrong with Ezio?

I mean, aside from the fact they milked the character one game too many.

Fatal-Feit
11-15-2014, 01:59 PM
What's wrong with Ezio?

I mean, aside from the fact they milked the character one game too many.

Ezio's a Gary Sue. He's too perfect. I can understand why people would love a character like that, but for Assassin's Creed, a game that's well-known for its story, I expect better.

Everyone loves him and anyone opposing him are beneath him. Literally. The antagonists/Templars are a joke. Cesare, who had potential, was butchered in Brotherhood. War genius and combat expert, my ***.

His ''development'' is rhetorical. Ezio doesn't actually develop, he simply grows a beard. Becoming physically better and stronger doesn't mean he, as a character, actually develops.

[EDIT] As far as I'm concerned, young Ezio never happened. Arno takes his place. Old Ezio, however, will never be replaced. That is the Ezio written well. The character and story still suffered from the cartoony direction of the franchise after AC:1, but Darby McDevitt had to work with what he had.

Loki Will Rule
11-15-2014, 02:53 PM
Ezio's a Gary Sue. He's too perfect. I can understand why people would love a character like that, but for Assassin's Creed, a game that's well-known for its story, I expect better.

Everyone loves him and anyone opposing him are beneath him. Literally. The antagonists/Templars are a joke. Cesare, who had potential, was butchered in Brotherhood. War genius and combat expert, my ***.

His ''development'' is rhetorical. Ezio doesn't actually develop, he simply grows a beard. Becoming physically better and stronger doesn't mean he, as a character, actually develops.

[EDIT] As far as I'm concerned, young Ezio never happened. Arno takes his place. Old Ezio, however, will never be replaced. That is the Ezio written well. The character and story still suffered from the cartoony direction of the franchise after AC:1, but Darby McDevitt had to work with what he had.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Conniving_Eagle
11-15-2014, 03:10 PM
SHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Shay is love, Shay is life.

Shay would have change for a 20.

Dis.

Shay is much deeper and complex.

Arno really is just Frenchzio. He even has the same hair cut!

And Shay's motivations go much further than just a hero who fights the bad guys because they killed his parents. Shay has a moral dilemma - stopping and if necessary killing his family in order to do what he knows is right.

reprezentujewuwu
11-15-2014, 03:13 PM
shay

thats a playable haytham. thats all

one of the greatest characters in ac series. i hope we will have another game with him, not with arno

gnosis_guyver1
11-15-2014, 03:33 PM
Shay obviously. Still arno could have been made much better if

Shay was involved in unity why you ask cause it would cause a lot of things to happen emotional stuff Shay could tell arno to question the creed and give examples of assassin extremists like mackandal who was as a revenge crazed maniac shown in rogues in a war letter in which he insults both anto and ah tabai callng them soft and weak and Otso Bergs baptiste profile. and Arnos teacher Pierre Bellec whom murdered one of the assassin councilors the mentor Mirabeau simply cause he didn't adhere to his militant view of the assassins. Mirabeau(a man Shay would admire) sought peace and cooperation Bellec wanted war. Alos Shay buddy Liam tolerated unnecessary violence from kesegowaase simply cause it was helpful to the assassins.The last battle should have been Shay versus arno

darksavior1977
11-15-2014, 04:58 PM
I am playing Unity and have only heard about Rogue, and based on what I know of Arno and have heard of Shay, I would say Shay hands down is the more interesting. Rogue sounds like it would altogether be the better game if it had been given more dev time.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 05:12 PM
I am playing Unity and have only heard about Rogue, and based on what I know of Arno and have heard of Shay, I would say Shay hands down is the more interesting. Rogue sounds like it would altogether be the better game if it had been given more dev time.

It's not too late for Ubisoft to port it to 8th gen hardware and give it a makeover with some DLC.

Conniving_Eagle
11-15-2014, 05:27 PM
It's probably why the PC version is being released later. They're likely optimizing the game right now for PC [and hopefully next gen].

Dev_Anj
11-15-2014, 05:31 PM
And all the patches in the world aren't going to fix Frenchzio's unoriginality

Interesting that you say this when you also said:


Anything done well, will transcend how many times it's used.

By the way, I do agree that ultimately it depends not on how many times tropes are used, but how effectively tropes are used. However, this by no means excuses lazy writing, which I was criticizing in that thread.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 06:01 PM
I think the unoriginality is a valid point when they don't make you FEEL this is a real person.

Originality doesn't matter if a story feels organic.

I didn't get that with Arno.

Namikaze_17
11-15-2014, 06:11 PM
Ezio's a Gary Sue. He's too perfect. I can understand why people would love a character like that, but for Assassin's Creed, a game that's well-known for its story, I expect better.

Everyone loves him and anyone opposing him are beneath him. Literally. The antagonists/Templars are a joke. Cesare, who had potential, was butchered in Brotherhood. War genius and combat expert, my ***.

His ''development'' is rhetorical. Ezio doesn't actually develop, he simply grows a beard. Becoming physically better and stronger doesn't mean he, as a character, actually develops.

[EDIT] As far as I'm concerned, young Ezio never happened. Arno takes his place. Old Ezio, however, will never be replaced. That is the Ezio written well. The character and story still suffered from the cartoony direction of the franchise after AC:1, but Darby McDevitt had to work with what he had.

Yeah, this. I like Ezio and all, but this is one of my biggest disconnections with him.

That, and the notion from some fans that Ezio was the only "good" protagonist. So close-minded. -__-

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 06:32 PM
I don't think of Ezio as a Gary Stu, actually. Ezio spends most of the game getting completely fooled by the Assassins who play him like a fiddle and makes a lot of mistakes like failing to realize the Borgias were still a threat. I also think he's neither a moral paragon or particularly good at anything other than Assassin work. As much as I love Connor Kenway, he's a Ship Captain/Assassin/Hunter/Amateur Scientist.

I think Ezio was a good character and enjoyable but I also think he wasn't THE GREATEST character and most of the other Assassins are on his level. It's just most gamers think being a sexy ladies man/swashbuckler is a better fantasy than an angry murderer turned snooty philosopher (Altair) or Victim of The WorldTM like poor Connor.

It's why people love Edward as gamers WANT to be a lovable pirate.

Dev_Anj
11-15-2014, 06:50 PM
I think the unoriginality is a valid point when they don't make you FEEL this is a real person.

That sounds less about being original and more about being natural. While avoiding stereotypes is helpful in making your characters feel natural, it's not the only thing that's required.

Hood2theBurbs
11-15-2014, 07:46 PM
I dunno, I think that's a rather poignant bit of business too because Shay never chooses stability over freedom. Juhani thinks that Shay chose "order over freedom" when it's exactly the opposite. Shay chose to stop the Assassins because he believed they were a threat to humanity and he was trying to maneuver the situation to prevent further loss of collateral damage. Juhani is seeing Shay through the framework of Assassins versus Templars.

I think, in fact, the important thing to realize about Shay is he thinks the war between them is stupid. A plague on BOTH your houses, so to speak.

It's just Templars were where he ended up for the time being.

If the Templars went after the PoE to use them, Shay would turn on them too. He's a protector of the innocent and a Templar by necessity. The thing is, I'm not uncomfortable with that either because I think the Templars are more fluid in their philosophy.

The Borgias wanted power.
Haytham wanted stability.
Thomas Hickey and Duncan Wapole wanted cash.
de Sable wanted to remake the world via false miracles.

Shay wanting to protect the innocent via the Templars is no different from any other Templar using the organization for their own ends.

But see that's exactly the problem, he didn't have to leave the Assassin's to stop them. Sure he's not in good state of mind but last I checked the Assassin's aren't out to destroy the world, nor are they city destroyers. Achilles DIDN'T know what would happen, but Shay just flys into the room accusing Achilles of destroying an entire city when that isn't the case. Had he cooled off and told Achilles exactly what the precursor sites were, do you really think he would have ignored Shay and mounted another expedition? The answer is no he would have locked the box and the manuscript away for protection and that's it Shay no longer has reason to leave the Assassins. There are real things in the game that the Assassin's do that Shay can take issue with, supporting criminals and gangs even going so far as giving them some form of training. Assisting the French in the war, mass producing poisons and endangering civilians, and even allowing one of there members to attack a tribe of natives allied with the British. Trying to destroy the world is not one of them and not a good reason to turn on them.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 07:57 PM
But see that's exactly the problem, he didn't have to leave the Assassin's to stop them. Sure he's not in good state of mind but last I checked the Assassin's aren't out to destroy the world, nor are they city destroyers. Achilles DIDN'T know what would happen, but Shay just flys into the room accusing Achilles of destroying an entire city when that isn't the case. Had he cooled off and told Achilles exactly what the precursor sites were, do you really think he would have ignored Shay and mounted another expedition? The answer is no he would have locked the box and the manuscript away for protection and that's it Shay no longer has reason to leave the Assassins. There are real things in the game that the Assassin's do that Shay can take issue with, supporting criminals and gangs even going so far as giving them some form of training. Assisting the French in the war, mass producing poisons and endangering civilians, and even allowing one of there members to attack a tribe of natives allied with the British. Trying to destroy the world is not one of them and not a good reason to turn on them.

I disagree, I think the Assassins would have continued on the path they did. Mostly because the Assassins that Shay saw unquestionably held to their tenants and righteousness even in the face of a thousand years of war. Achilles is a good man but I'm sure he'd think the circumstances with the Pieces of Eden meant they shouldn't be left alone and the Earthquakes were just this one device. Achilles, as terrible as it sounded, needed to be shown how hubris-ridden the Assassin Order had become.

On a basic level, I think Shay knew the Assassins were committed to keeping the Pieces of Eden out of the Templars hands and don't care if they're good or evil, just Templars.

Shay believed they had to be stopped because he hated them as AN ORDER, not in this specific action. That might have been better communicated but I think the controversy makes it interesting.

Even if Shay didn't have to do it, people often do things they don't have to do or are forced into. The Assassins would have turned on him for associating with Templars if nothing else.

The Pieces of Eden were just the final straw in a long series of disillusionments with the Assassins.

Hood2theBurbs
11-15-2014, 08:02 PM
We'll just have agree to disagree then :) Clearly we view the story from different perspectives and anyway besides that one plot point Shay has become my 3rd favorite character in AC and he is clearly a stronger character than Arno.