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F3nix013
11-14-2014, 09:36 PM
I think the story was a complete waste of time and here is exactly why i think that.

First and foremost, you are not given any information at all about the Pieces of Eden or anything in the modern world when it came to the Templars or Assassins. The only time anything was said was either when Bishop and Deacon interrupted you and talked to you or you viewed the Phoenix Project information. Other than that, there was NOTHING.

Then you have the main point of the story being to find out if there was a sage living in the French Revolution at the same time as Arno and if there was, you had to find the resting place of the body first before the Templars. All to come to find out that after you kill the sage and see his resting place in the catacombs, Bishop chimes in and says that she doubts that the Templars will waste time looking for the remains since it is not only in the catacombs among millions of bones and hundreds of thousands of bodies but also because of how decayed and brittle the bones are. That means all the work you did throughout the ENTIRE game was ****ing pointless. That to me was a big middle finger by Ubisoft saying that we had to play the whole game to find out that we didnt have to do ANY of that.

PLUS i hate how Ubisoft has a hard-on for killing off the female characters you learn to care about. They killed off Lucy, Christina, Mary Read and now Elise. The only 2 they didnt kill off were Rebecca (that we know of since we didnt see her in this game) and Ezios wife in Revelations. Seriously? Why do they feel the need to keep doing that?

Ubisoft needs to take a few years to re-think whatever direction they are planning on taking this game. My brother just got done playing it and said he wont buy the next AC due to how bad this game was and since BF was just a filler and both of us expected to see a good continuation of the story in Unity.

JustPlainQuirky
11-14-2014, 09:40 PM
Yeah Unity was horribly predictable and another one of those "added little to the overarching story" games. Like ACIV

Namikaze_17
11-14-2014, 10:11 PM
My feelings about this Thread: http://youtu.be/xi_ieNt9cZA


I agree with you on all your points.

Charles_Phipps
11-14-2014, 10:28 PM
Assassin's Creed 2 had a lot of strong female characters.

...

Where the hell did they all go!?

It seems like the games have gotten less progressive with time.

Frankly, Elise would have made a much better protagonist than Arno too.

*sigh*

At least with the America Edition release, we can say a woman and a person of color got a full game release.

king-hailz
11-14-2014, 11:05 PM
Yeah your right they need to work on it! However the amazing city they crcreated with parsing redeems the game for me... its just so fun... If it had a great story and a better soundtrack it truly would have been amazing!

JustPlainQuirky
11-14-2014, 11:12 PM
Assassin's Creed 2 had a lot of strong female characters.

...

Where the hell did they all go!?

It seems like the games have gotten less progressive with time.

Frankly, Elise would have made a much better protagonist than Arno too.

*sigh*

At least with the America Edition release, we can say a woman and a person of color got a full game release.

It's not Assassin's Creed's job to be progressive.

Nor is it their obligation.

Charles_Phipps
11-14-2014, 11:19 PM
It's not Assassin's Creed's job to be progressive.

Nor is it their obligation.

No, but it would make the games better if they were.

It's not the job of Borderlands to be progressive.

But Gearbox is and they're more awesome for it.

Ubisoft could learn a lesson.

Edit:

Also, bluntly, Claudia, Caterina Sforza, and Christine aren't "progressive" characters so much as "realistic ones." 50% of the population of the world is women and they exist at all levels of life historically.

So games representing that are the bare minimum. I don't need badass female Assassins in my AC games.

But they don't hurt.

I DO need lots and lots of women because sausage fests aren't my ideal form of escapism or historical. :-)

F3nix013
11-15-2014, 04:47 AM
I really did love the detail that went into the artwork for the map, characters, customization etc. That was an amazing improvement over the past ACs. My main problem is when it comes to AC i am purely in it for the story. I dont like having to do side missions while playing the story because that makes me feel a bit side tracked. I am the kind of person that likes to play the story all the way through with no interruptions. Not only that but when i play a story i expect to have the story EXPLAIN what is going on with context of why you are doing what you are doing. Unity barely had that. And when it comes to a continuation of story line that has been there since the beginning, I expect there to KEEP being continuation in the story no matter what game it is. BF was just filler in terms of Kenways story and i know there was kind of a story with the modern day Abstergo, but again, barely.

The only progressive part that needs to be with these games is with the story, there MUST be progression with the story if Ubisoft as any hope of selling more AC games. That is why i think this game bombed. After i beat it and sat through fast forwarding, i had 2 thoughts: 1) is the 3rd thing in the spoiler and 2) "i waited over a year for this?!?". To be honest, i am not going to buy the next AC until i know for sure that they are going to progress the story like they should have done with Unity.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 04:49 AM
I really did love the detail that went into the artwork for the map, characters, customization etc. That was an amazing improvement over the past ACs. My main problem is when it comes to AC i am purely in it for the story. I dont like having to do side missions while playing the story because that makes me feel a bit side tracked. I am the kind of person that likes to play the story all the way through with no interruptions. Not only that but when i play a story i expect to have the story EXPLAIN what is going on with context of why you are doing what you are doing. Unity barely had that. And when it comes to a continuation of story line that has been there since the beginning, I expect there to KEEP being continuation in the story no matter what game it is. BF was just filler in terms of Kenways story and i know there was kind of a story with the modern day Abstergo, but again, barely.

The only progressive part that needs to be with these games is with the story, there MUST be progression with the story if Ubisoft as any hope of selling more AC games. That is why i think this game bombed. After i beat it and sat through fast forwarding, i had 2 thoughts: 1) is the 3rd thing in the spoiler and 2) "i waited over a year for this?!?". To be honest, i am not going to buy the next AC until i know for sure that they are going to progress the story like they should have done with Unity.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure the story with Desmond is over. I'm not sure Juno is going to become a kind of escalating threat so much as a permanent background figure. I also felt Modern Day Abstergo employee was a perfectly valid Desmond replacement.

F3nix013
11-15-2014, 04:52 AM
The thing is, I'm pretty sure the story with Desmond is over. I'm not sure Juno is going to become a kind of escalating threat so much as a permanent background figure. I also felt Modern Day Abstergo employee was a perfectly valid Desmond replacement.

Actually, i saw an article from an interview that Ubisoft said that the Desmond storyline is not over but it DOES have an end to it sometime in the future.

They HAVE to finish Juno. The sage tried to release her but she didnt want to go and now that the sage died in the modern day, what will happen with that?

ace3001
11-15-2014, 05:01 AM
No, but it would make the games better if they were.

It's not the job of Borderlands to be progressive.

But Gearbox is and they're more awesome for it.

Ubisoft could learn a lesson.

Edit:

Also, bluntly, Claudia, Caterina Sforza, and Christine aren't "progressive" characters so much as "realistic ones." 50% of the population of the world is women and they exist at all levels of life historically.

So games representing that are the bare minimum. I don't need badass female Assassins in my AC games.

But they don't hurt.

I DO need lots and lots of women because sausage fests aren't my ideal form of escapism or historical. :-)Actually, quite a bit of history is a sausage fest. Women are half the population, and they always were, but equality for women was hardly even heard of until quite recently as far as history goes. So it's not unrealistic that most Assassins and Templars are going to be men. History is history. You can't change the **** that has happened.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 05:22 AM
Actually, quite a bit of history is a sausage fest. Women are half the population, and they always were, but equality for women was hardly even heard of until quite recently as far as history goes. So it's not unrealistic that most Assassins and Templars are going to be men. History is history. You can't change the **** that has happened.

Given the Assassins and Templars are a pair of 70,000 year old organizations founded from the resistance to a race of human aliens, I think we can take some licenses with history.

Even then, I like shows like "Vikings" and "Game of Thrones" which remember even in misogynist societies, women were a constant and important presence in the decision-making process as well as background.

Sesheenku
11-15-2014, 05:22 AM
No, but it would make the games better if they were.

That's debatable. Why would a character merely being progressive be good? Progressiveness is not an automatic pass for being a good character.


It's not the job of Borderlands to be progressive.

But Gearbox is and they're more awesome for it.

Ubisoft could learn a lesson.

Again, debatable.

They're more awesome simply because they added X type of character? That translates to "they gave me what I wanted, so they're awesome." Which is 100% subjective.


Edit:

Also, bluntly, Claudia, Caterina Sforza, and Christine aren't "progressive" characters so much as "realistic ones." 50% of the population of the world is women and they exist at all levels of life historically.

That's a rather odd sentence, are you saying that your "progressive" ideals are unrealistic? Claudia is only touched upon but she's obviously brave, confident, strong willed, and clever. Is that not good enough?


So games representing that are the bare minimum.

Representing badass females? Perhaps in the AAA section of the industry, which encompasses very little of the overall total of games.


I don't need badass female Assassins in my AC games.

But they don't hurt.

I DO need lots and lots of women because sausage fests aren't my ideal form of escapism or historical. :-)

You needs lots and lots of women as opposed to a normal amount of women?

guardian_titan
11-15-2014, 05:25 AM
Equality between men and women did exist before the modern day. Hunter-gather societies are fairly evenly divided when it comes to who does what. Also, Ancient Egyptian women were quite progressive. Hatshepsut might have been an oddity in being one of only two female Pharaohs, but women at the time could divorce and own their own businesses if they wanted to. Women weren't constrained by men at the time. I believe it was the Spartans, and to a lesser extent the Greeks, that also trained their girls in the same way as the boys. Upon hitting marrying age, the girls tapered off, but they weren't put to the way side. It wasn't really until after the Ancient Egyptian empire fell after Cleopatra that equality took a hit. Did you know we had to reinvent glass making? We had it in Tutankhamen's time (roughly 1350 BC or so) but lost it for a while before reinventing it sometime later. Not surprising equality took a hit for a while. Things tend to loop back around. History repeats itself. That's pretty obvious lately with fashion, movies, etc. We'll probably start to see more female centric games around 2018-2020 just due to development time, but people will cry they're sexist because the women aren't realistic so it'll return to being male dominated only for people to complain about lack of women again. Around it goes.

Also ....
You're honestly shocked Elise died? Their relationship was touted as being like Romeo and Juliet. That was a massive given what was going to happen. She's also a Templar. The Templars in the series tend to die horrible deaths ... unless she's Maria Thorpe who switched sides. I don't see that happening again or people will cry they're just recycling Altair's story (or at least romance).

I haven't played Unity nor have I watched any videos on it since I frankly found it boring months ago, but I'm not surprised in the slightest. With everything lately, not sure I'll be buying another Assassin's Creed game let alone another Ubisoft game. Quite a shame, too. I keep eyeing the Xbox One bundle with AC4 and Unity that will be for sale during Black Friday for $329.99. I go to Target, I get another $50 gift card on top of that. But do I really want to spend the money on a game I hate? :rolleyes:

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 05:35 AM
That's debatable. Why would a character merely being progressive be good? Progressiveness is not an automatic pass for being a good character.

It is a qualifying quality which would lend itself to being a good character. You can write a badly written progressive character or a conservative character who is well-written. Ezio Auditore is a handsome dashing Italian rogue, which is about as conservative as you can get but he's a wonderful character. Nevertheless, I'm quite fond of characters like Mary Read and Aveline who manage to live within the gender roles of their time period while defying them. I was also fascinated by the stories of the female assassins of AC2 from the two Madames who were members of the Brotherhood to Claudia's own story.


Again, debatable.

All opinions regarding the value of art are inherently subjective. I won't attempt to tell you what you find enjoyable or better to the quality of art but I hope you'll do the same.


They're more awesome simply because they added X type of character? That translates to "they gave me what I wanted, so they're awesome." Which is 100% subjective.

Speaking as both an academic and writer of fiction, I hold people in contempt who engage in laziness of representation. If a story is taking place in, say, Japan, I don't ask them to have hordes of white people or the reverse in France during the 12th century. I do, however, dislike fiction which attempts to make the world less cosmopolitan than it really is or was. The world is an amazingly diverse and fascinating place with the "whitewashing" of it something which makes it blander and less interesting. One thing I liked about Assassins Creed 3 is it remembers the Colonies were NOT composed of Englishmen. They were composed of Englishmen, Germans, blacks, whites, Native Americans, people of mixed descent, Catholics, Protestants, and more.

It's probably why I liked the Homestead missions as much as I did. Another reason I liked Assassin's Creed 2 so damned much was because it showed a brilliantly vibrant and diverse Assassins Order. You had prostitutes, thieves, noblemen, mercenaries, and politicians. Rogue is good too because you have blacks, Native Americans, Irishmen, French, and yes, a woman.


That's a rather odd sentence, are you saying that your "progressive" ideals are unrealistic? Claudia is only touched upon but she's obviously brave, confident, strong willed, and clever. Is that not good enough?

Kind of weird, you actually are coming at me from a disagreeing point when you're pretty much making my point. I'm not asking for the games to necessarily be about female protagonists for the sake of female protagonists. I do, however, think the games should make sure to remember women were a constant presence in the setting and should be reflected as that.

Claudia, even before she became an Assassin, was an important part of Ezio's life and enriched the game for her presence. She didn't have to be an Assassin to make the game better even if it was cool when she became one. I think the games would benefit if we saw more of characters female relatives, friends, and co-workers.


Representing badass females? Perhaps in the AAA section of the industry, which encompasses very little of the overall total of games.

I'm not sure what you're saying.


You needs lots and lots of women as opposed to a normal amount of women?

A lot of games seem to operate on the Smurfette principle where there's usually one girl amongst eighty guy characters. Keeping about even numbers is a good thing, IMHO.

crusader_prophet
11-15-2014, 05:43 AM
bump.

However I am enjoying AC Rogue incredibly in all aspects.

UbiSoft - stop your annual releases. Learn from BioWare and CD Projekt Red.

Remember what made the AC series a favorite in the first place. An incredible, climactic, mysterious story!

Stick to basics, and AC will remain beloved franchise.

pirate1802
11-15-2014, 07:09 AM
Any character (male or female) who challenges the status quo and what their supposed 'role' in society is, is an inherently interesting character in my (subjective!) opinion.

Yes, it's nobody's job or responsibility to be progressive, but for the reason above I'd think the games would benefit for it. I think a woman who says **** you to her family when they try to marry her off, or an untouchable low caste person showing upper caste people their places publicly and getting cheered for it. (if you know how the caste system works, also this has actually happened.), or a black guy in colonial era who rose through derision and became one of the 'rich and famous'. All these make them inherently interesting to my eyes, even if they don't have what typically makes a character interesting in our circles (wits! charisma and the works.) and consequently, the stories better.

Just like it was nobody's job to pick a half-native as protag of AC3 but they did and his story was more interesting than with a generic white settler with a British accent. Atleast I think so. Subjective yes but then so is everything I just wrote.

Also, regarding more females being killed off to provide emotional impetus, than males killed.. you're right and it's actually bigger than this. Look at the comic industry. In the 80s I think some female comicbook fans made a towering list of all such female characters being sacrificed to provide emotional causes belli to males. The disparity was glaring. Some of the best female comicbook writers of today come from that very movement.

Charles_Phipps
11-15-2014, 01:46 PM
Yeah Unity was horribly predictable and another one of those "added little to the overarching story" games. Like ACIV

ACIV added a lot to the mythos as it introduced the Sages, told us what Juno was up to, and also gave us an idea of Haytham as well as Connor's background.

I liked the Programmer as a lead, too.

Re: Progressiveness

I also think ethnicity adds context to the games too. It's why I wish a 45 or so Connor was the protagonist of UNITY. He's outside the Revolution and could have added a unique perspective to it.

Arno seems so.....generic white European dude.

Ubi-MoshiMoshi
11-15-2014, 02:00 PM
Please remember to put spoiler tags in the title as even if you use spoiler BBcode people will comment and drop spoilers in the thread.

Thanks

F3nix013
11-15-2014, 05:22 PM
You're honestly shocked Elise died? Their relationship was touted as being like Romeo and Juliet. That was a massive given what was going to happen. She's also a Templar. The Templars in the series tend to die horrible deaths ... unless she's Maria Thorpe who switched sides. I don't see that happening again or people will cry they're just recycling Altair's story (or at least romance).[/QUOTE]

I wasnt shocked when she died. I kinda knew what was going to happen considering how reckless she was throughout the story. But why does that mean she had to die? They could have easily left her alive but they chose to be a **** about it

Yes the Templars have a history of that in the game but at the same token, so do the Assassins. Al Mualim died in the first game, then you had Ezios father, Lucy was an Assassin turned Templar so and either way, she died, then that guy from Constantinople you meet in Revelations, Achilles from AC3 and Mary Read from BF. So both sides have a history of meeting untimely deaths. But that doesnt excuse the fact that Ubisoft has a special soft spot for the females in the game that they make you learn to care about and then just kill them off, like Ubisoft is the George R.R. Martin of AC.

F3nix013
11-15-2014, 05:30 PM
Given the Assassins and Templars are a pair of 70,000 year old organizations founded from the resistance to a race of human aliens, I think we can take some licenses with history.

Even then, I like shows like "Vikings" and "Game of Thrones" which remember even in misogynist societies, women were a constant and important presence in the decision-making process as well as background.

But at the same time, the women even in those shows werent exactly publicly recognized for their decisions either, just like in actual history. In history you BARELY see any women who were recognized for their involvement in certain major advancements or wars. It is mainly the men because the equality just wasnt there and guess who wrote the history books? Men. We wrote the history books and since women were not held to a higher standard until recent history, they were not given the recognition they deserve. They either operated in the background OR they tried to help in the public eye but were either suppressed by history writers or they were removed from society.

Given that, i would say that Unity and previous games were accurate in the portrayal of this. Not saying i liked it, because who wouldnt like a female protagonist in the main story and not Liberation?

Journey93
11-15-2014, 06:17 PM
I couldn't agree with you more!
the writers should be ashamed Arno was boring as hell, Ellise was awesome but her death unneccessary and predictable as hell (I remember people on this forum before release saying nahh the writers wouldn't do that again, right????) Like many already said she should have been the protagonist but Ubi sadly doesn't have the balls to make a woman the protagonist in a main game even though it would be more fitting and awesome

the side characters were forgettable as was the villian, the soundtrack was meh
the only good thing was the city there was a lot of attention to detail

F3nix013
11-15-2014, 06:30 PM
I couldn't agree with you more!
the writers should be ashamed Arno was boring as hell, Ellise was awesome but her death unneccessary and predictable as hell (I remember people on this forum before release saying nahh the writers wouldn't do that again, right????) Like many already said she should have been the protagonist but Ubi sadly doesn't have the balls to make a woman the protagonist in a main game even though it would be more fitting and awesome

the side characters were forgettable as was the villian, the soundtrack was meh
the only good thing was the city there was a lot of attention to detail

All i have to say in response to this is that compared to Connor from AC3, Arno had a great personality. Not as great as Ezios but sure as **** better than Connor who had NO personality lol.