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Radman500
11-12-2014, 12:00 AM
is it possible the father of understanding is a TWCB/precursor?

what do you guys think

LoyalACFan
11-12-2014, 12:08 AM
Haven't played Unity to completion so I'm unsure as to whether they touched on this, but I was under the impression that that expression dated back to the time when the Templars were religious (so the Father of Understanding is literally just the Christian God) and after they became an atheistic organization they just clung to it for tradition's sake and adopted the Father as a sort of abstract concept or ideal. I don't think it could be a precursor, since I'm pretty sure the expression dates back to before anyone knew about the precursors.

Edit- actually yeah, I'm sure it does, they said it in AC2 before Ezio discovered the Vault and, by extension, the OWCB

Namikaze_17
11-12-2014, 12:24 AM
The "Father of Understanding" is an entity that represents the Templar's will to accomplish their goals.


Like how the Creed guides/drives the Assassins to accomplish their goals.

VestigialLlama4
11-12-2014, 03:37 AM
Haven't played Unity to completion so I'm unsure as to whether they touched on this, but I was under the impression that that expression dated back to the time when the Templars were religious (so the Father of Understanding is literally just the Christian God) and after they became an atheistic organization they just clung to it for tradition's sake and adopted the Father as a sort of abstract concept or ideal. I don't think it could be a precursor, since I'm pretty sure the expression dates back to before anyone knew about the precursors.

Edit- actually yeah, I'm sure it does, they said it in AC2 before Ezio discovered the Vault and, by extension, the OWCB

To understand Father of Understanding, you need to look up this wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet

The short answer is, that during the real-life Purge of the Templars that we see at the beginning of UNITY, ordered against Jacques de Molay, the main accusation pinned on the real Templars is that they didn't worship Christ anymore, were crypto-atheists and that they worshipped a creepy figure called Baphomet who made them do all kinds of evil things in private, including gay sex apparently. I mean it was a bunch of fantastic accusations piled to get rid of the Templars, but who knows, maybe these guys really were gay rights martyrs and secret occultists, at least then they would have died for a reason.

Baphomet became a famous figure in the 19th Century Occult and one of the theories for his name meaning is that it translates from the Arabic word Abu fihama (pronounced Bufihama) which means - "Father of Understanding". So the theory in the occult was that Baphomet represents a higher level understanding of culture and imagery and symbols, and the like. In UNITY, one of your tasks is to investigate an underground Baphomet cult in Paris

Remember that Assassin's Creed is inspired not only by Vladimir Bartol's ALAMUT but also a book of secret socieites that Patrice Desilets had read.

GreatBeyonder
11-12-2014, 03:49 AM
Just adding to Mr. Llama's explanation, but 'May the Father of Understand guide us" simply means "Let us act wisely and not foolishly or out of ignorance." Bear in mind, these are all guys who think they're smarter than everyone else and think they know best so of course they'd appeal not to a higher power, but their own intellects.

Acrimonious_Nin
11-12-2014, 05:19 AM
Beware spoilers lol...Big Ones...

About the end...Aita, once he is assassinated, states in some paradoxical time place like the one Jupiter and Desmond were in, "But it seems that the Father of Understanding has seen fit to give us this time to talk"...

That book that Jacques De Molay was hiding, which was titled "Pater Intellectus" means "Father of Understanding" and apparently this "Father of Undestanding" is actually a figure that has shown the "Templars" or Cain(due to the AC2 glyphs hinting at the Templars Origins) the truth about the world. The Original Templars understood what was at stake...There old order, which Aita has been trying to re-create, was purer to guiding humanity. That book probably has every recorded thing ever mentioned by "The Father of Understanding", similar to how Ezio wrote down everything Minerva stated.

"The Father of Understanding Guided you to us..." - Otso Berg

It really doesn't sound like some kind of "ideal" it sounds more like an entity...We do know that Warren Vidic has stated that the Tech. that Abestergo uses is from "TWCB", but we also know that Juno is aiding the Assassins more than the Templars at this point...I have to say that this Pater Intellectus has to be Jupiter. Juno told Clay to "beware of the daughter of the sixth", which is Minerva. The only time we know of 'Minerva' showing up to Clay must have been during the time Ezio first found the first Vault. Clay wrote messages to aid Juno's Plan. And it is speculated that the sage is the one that wrote the Chaos theory in the prison cell. So there is some sort of connection to Juno and Aita in Clay's madness. What I mean is Juno clearly wanted Clay and Desmond and Lucy to play a role in her vast scheme to escape knowing that the Templars would have gotten in the way and guided the assassins this whole time for her own ends. Hence that cryptic message to Clay. Which could very much be the "Father of Understanding"...Maybe...

Anywho point is that "The Father of Understanding" sounds like a First civ to what I have seen...and heard...

Clay is too relevant a character to ignore it seems...The pentagram he draws is not so different from the one that Baphomet is on about on his head...Which is believed to be the "religion" of the Templars.

Clay warned Desmond in his Glyphs that, "some still knew the truth" and that the truth was hidden in painting, documents, etc. Baphomet could have been a depiction of TWCB that was supporting the Templars ? And throughout time was portrayed as an evil and perverted figure, then again Jupiter is known to have raped women, married his sister which became his wife only to be cheated on dozens of times...So Jupiter/Baphomet wouldn't be so far fetched now would it ? When someone acts as a beast as such. Immoral/Tyrannical over Humans/ and any other evil thing that could be understood from Jupiter/Zeus' behaviors...

Namikaze_17
11-12-2014, 05:31 AM
Beware spoilers lol...Big Ones...

About the end...Aita, once he is assassinated, states in some paradoxical time place like the one Jupiter and Desmond were in, "But it seems that the Father of Understanding has seen fit to give us this time to talk"...

That book that Jacques De Molay was hiding, which was titled "Pater Intellectus" means "Father of Understanding" and apparently this "Father of Undestanding" is actually a figure that has shown the "Templars" or Cain(due to the AC2 glyphs hinting at the Templars Origins) the truth about the world. The Original Templars understood what was at stake...There old order, which Aita has been trying to re-create, was purer to guiding humanity. That book probably has every recorded thing ever mentioned by "The Father of Understanding", similar to how Ezio wrote down everything Minerva stated.

"The Father of Understanding Guided you to us..." - Otso Berg

It really doesn't sound like some kind of "ideal" it sounds more like an entity...We do know that Warren Vidic has stated that the Tech. that Abestergo uses is from "TWCB", but we also know that Juno is aiding the Assassins more than the Templars at this point...I have to say that this Pater Intellectus has to be Jupiter. Juno told Clay to "beware of the daughter of the sixth", which is Minerva. The only time we know of 'Minerva' showing up to Clay must have been during the time Ezio first found the first Vault. Clay wrote messages to aid Juno's Plan. And it is speculated that the sage is the one that wrote the Chaos theory in the prison cell. So there is some sort of connection to Juno and Aita in Clay's madness.

Anywho point is that "The Father of Understanding" sounds like a First civ to what I have seen...and heard...


I remember you making a Theory on Al Mualim being a Sage, and I have to say I'm intrigued by that. No matter how many times I watch AC1 cutscenes, I always found myself puzzled on which side, which philosophy he was truly on. That analysis said he was neither, and I agree. He wanted control, but peace. Yet I never could figure out. Hell I think even Altair wasn't entirely convinced on what he was which makes his betrayal, and motivations ever more interesting to this day.

Acrimonious_Nin
11-12-2014, 06:07 AM
I remember you making a Theory on Al Mualim being a Sage, and I have to say I'm intrigued by that. No matter how many times I watch AC1 cutscenes, I always found myself puzzled on which side, which philosophy he was truly on. That analysis said he was neither, and I agree. He wanted control, but peace. Yet I never could figure out. Hell I think even Altair wasn't entirely convinced on what he was which makes his betrayal, and motivations ever more interesting to this day.


After rogue, The way Otso Berg admired Al Mualim, and after connecting some dots...I mean...It is not far fetched that Al Mualim used the Assassins to create Chaos for "His Enemies", an order that he did not agree with, After sending his most loyal assassin to do the job of erasing his opponents, Altair slowly started to realize that both Assassins and Templars have strangely similar Ideas and views...He still could not figure it out why this was so until Al Mualim says something that totally makes me question him now more than ever...He realized the truth that "Nothing is True, and that Everything is Permitted" Even Masayaf seemed a little "Gray" colored...After that lecture about the creed commanding them to be wise and all that crap. Did anyone every wonder how Al Mualim was able to use the apple so well ?!?! I mean did we not question this yet ?

At the end of Unity, The sage says something along the lines of how people need to taste chaos as a means to help the people realize that they crave order and that shaking things up a bit is usually was what it took...Thus Chaos theory...By scaring people through the horrors of Chaos they learn to Desire Order. The reason why most revolutions brought about a "new order" that was ever so slightly less oppressive than the last...Never to fully "destroy 'order' " itself.

After the sage spoke these words. It seems that Al Mualim's motive seems clearer...Since he could not rise up to be Grand Master of the Templars and have his own version of "Order and Peace" he would do exactly what the sage talks about...Creates Chaos for everyone just so that his "rise to power" became that more simple...By bringing the "True Templar Ideals", Via the methods of the first civs using PoE to control the minds of people like TWCB did. This was "The Old Order". Not Templar Order but First civ order of "Pater Intellectus", into the Assassin order before Altair turned the order around and made it more Antagonistic towards the Templars, but before then the Assassins and Templars were not really at war with each other that often...

In Unity you can see this same behavior with the Sage killing the innocent king ? was it ?...And shows Arno how much of a cutthroat he was. Which is the same thing that Black Bart shows to Edward and the same thing that Al Mualim shows to Altair and his Enemies...That same turncoat/cutthroat behavior that he tends to have...

Now for the grand finally...Al Mualim translates to "The Teacher". There is a section in the bible, titled "The Teacher", which is the name of the author, that Al Mualim quotes..."He who increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow". The book ecclesiastes, where this is found, the whole thing talks about living your life in the "gray" and is presumed to have been written by a wise man. Some believe it to be Solomon.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

This Chapter shows the very gray nature of the philosophy of "The Teacher" or Al Mualim, if you will...

This hints that Al Mualim could have written this book...And who is a Cutthroat, that doesn't choose sides and rises to the top by any means necessary ? The Sage...Al Mualim says, "Al Mualim: What do he and his followers want? A world in which all men are united. I do not despise his goal. I share it. But I take issue with the means. Peace is something to be learned, to be understood, to be embraced." This is strange since he sounds like he is not taking sides while being on a side, makes his behavior dubious. Not to mention that, the missing an eye that makes it hard to make a final call on this theory. Minus the fact that we won't know anything about his body because Altair burnt it to ash...so what ever could have been analysed in genetic memory is gone...

One bit of side knowledge, Al Mualim, or the old man of the mountain was not the first grand master assassin in that time...according to history there was another one before Al Mualim that started the Assassin brotherhood in Levant...And that man is the only one that must have seen a "younger" Al Mualim before missing his eye...It would do the lore justice to find out who has within the lineage of this man, and see Al Mualim in his younger years...To see his eyes...O.O

To put it in perspective

Hassan-i Sabbah (1050s–1124) founder of the Levant Assassins.

Rashid ad-Din Sinan (1135 – 1191) Successor of the Assassin Order which no one really knows how...>_>


On a side note...Aita "knows" where these artifacts are and here the sites are like as if he is remembering a dream...Thomas Germain found the SoE and the Book to remind himself something that he left behind for himself in the future. I bet Al Mualim knew the Location of the Apple by the same method. Since we already know, in the AC lore that, the book ecclesiastes was probably written by Al Mualim and because most people, outside the AC lore think that, the author could have been Solomon, Then I think that being that Solomon was also wise could have been one incarnation of Aita, Followed by Al Mualim, who must have had dreams about a past life where he hid the Apple of Eden in order to do whatever he needed to do...>_> but that is my hunch...

Namikaze_17
11-12-2014, 06:27 AM
After rogue, The way Otso Berg admired Al Mualim, and after connecting some dots...I mean...It is not far fetched that Al Mualim used the Assassins to create Chaos for "His Enemies", an order that he did not agree with, After sending his most loyal assassin to do the job of erasing his opponents, Altair slowly started to realize that both Assassins and Templars have strangely similar Ideas and views...He still could not figure it out why this was so until Al Mualim says something that totally makes me question him now more than ever...He realized the truth that "Nothing is True, and that Everything is Permitted" Even Masayaf seemed a little "Gray" colored...After that lecture about the creed commanding them to be wise and all that crap. Did anyone every wonder how Al Mualim was able to use the apple so well ?!?! I mean did we not question this yet ?

At the end of Unity, The sage says something along the lines of how people need to taste chaos as a means to help the people realize that they crave order and that shaking things up a bit is usually was what it took...Thus Chaos theory...By scaring people through the horrors of Chaos they learn to Desire Order. The reason why most revolutions brought about a "new order" that was ever so slightly less oppressive than the last...Never to fully "destroy 'order' " itself.

After the sage spoke these words. It seems that Al Mualim's motive seems clearer...Since he could not rise up to be Grand Master of the Templars and have his own version of "Order and Peace" he would do exactly what the sage talks about...Creates Chaos for everyone just so that his "rise to power" became that more simple...By bringing the "True Templar Ideals", Via the methods of the first civs using PoE to control the minds of people like TWCB did. This was "The Old Order". Not Templar Order but First civ order of "Pater Intellectus", into the Assassin order before Altair turned the order around and made it more Antagonistic towards the Templars, but before then the Assassins and Templars were not really at war with each other that often...

In Unity you can see this same behavior with the Sage killing the innocent king ? was it ?...And shows Arno how much of a cutthroat he was. Which is the same thing that Black Bart shows to Edward and the same thing that Al Mualim shows to Altair and his Enemies...That same turncoat/cutthroat behavior that he tends to have...

Now for the grand finally...Al Mualim translates to "The Teacher". There is a section in the bible, titled "The Teacher", which is the name of the author, that Al Mualim quotes..."He who increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow". The book ecclesiastes, where this is found, the whole thing talks about living your life in the "gray" and is presumed to have been written by a wise man. Some believe it to be Solomon.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

This Chapter shows the very gray nature of the philosophy of "The Teacher" or Al Mualim, if you will...

This hints that Al Mualim could have written this book...And who is a Cutthroat, that doesn't choose sides and rises to the top by any means necessary ? The Sage...Al Mualim, not only does Al Mualim say, "Al Mualim: What do he and his followers want? A world in which all men are united. I do not despise his goal. I share it. But I take issue with the means. Peace is something to be learned, to be understood, to be embraced." make him not take sides while being on a side, but the missing an eye that makes it hard to make a final call on this theory. Minus the fact that we won't know anything about his body because Altair burnt it to ash...so what ever could have been analysed in genetic memory is gone...

One bit of side knowledge, Al Mualim, or the old man of the mountain was not the first grand master assassin in that time...according to history there was another one before Al Mualim that started the Assassin brotherhood in Levant...And that man is the only one that must have seen a "younger" Al Mualim before missing his eye...It would do the lore justice to find out who has this lineage and see Al Mualim in his younger years...

To put it in perspective

Hassan-i Sabbah (1050s–1124) founder of the Levant Assassins.

Rashid ad-Din Sinan (1135 – 1191) Successor of the Assassin Order which no one really know how...>_>


On a side note...Aita "knows" where these artifacts are and here the sites are like as if he is remembering a dream...Thomas Germain found the SoE and the Book to remind himself something that he left behind for himself in the future. I bet Al Mualim knew the Location of the Apple by the same method. Since we already know, in the AC lore that, the book ecclesiastes was probably written by Al Mualim and because most people, outside the AC lore think that, the author could have been Solomon, Then I think that being that Solomon was also wise could have been one incarnation of Aita, Followed by Al Mualim, who must have had dreams about a past life where he hid the Apple of Eden in order to do whatever he needed to do...>_> but that is my hunch...



I understand. But perhaps we'll never know. ;)

But still, it is an interesting mystery indeed.

Thanks for your perception of all this. :)

Acrimonious_Nin
11-12-2014, 06:29 AM
I understand. But perhaps we'll never know. ;)

But still, it is an interesting mystery indeed.

Thanks for your perception of all this. :)

^__^ no problem :D