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View Full Version : When did Templars become Wimp-lars?



GreatBeyonder
11-07-2014, 04:38 PM
Playing the first game and I had forgotten how much harder combat used to be. The Grandmaster was a seven foot tall dude in chainmail and his cronies could go toe-to-toe with assassins. Skip ahead a few years and suddenly you're being harassed by a 70-year-old politician who has only one decent fighter on his payroll. What happened to the badass Templars? When did Haytham and El Tiburon become the exceptions to the rule, instead of the standard? And why do none of them have Eagle Vision? Does Eagle Vision and parkour make you a better person or something?

cawatrooper9
11-07-2014, 04:45 PM
The main boss of the first game was an old dude, too. He just happened to have a piece of Eden.
As for Torres- well, I think it's pretty clear that the Assassin/Templar conflict wasn't really the heart of ACBF anyway.
And if you think Templars are wimpy now, you clearly don't know about Assassins Creed Rogue.

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 04:48 PM
The Templars in the recent Kenway Saga, including Rogue, mostly contrive of fairly capable fighters. They're no seven foot tall dudes in chain-mails, but they're more than able in combat. Don't let the assassinations and easy combat allude you from thinking they're not canonically strong in a fair fight. It's only around the Renaissance (Ezio Trilogy) where the Templars had a temporary downfall.

GreatBeyonder
11-07-2014, 04:49 PM
The main boss of the first game was an old dude, too. He just happened to have a piece of Eden.
As for Torres- well, I think it's pretty clear that the Assassin/Templar conflict wasn't really the heart of ACBF anyway.
And if you think Templars are wimpy now, you clearly don't know about Assassins Creed Rogue.

Al-Mualim and Shay were trained Assassins first. That only strengthens my argument about Templars losing their combat edge.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 05:42 PM
Playing the first game and I had forgotten how much harder combat used to be. The Grandmaster was a seven foot tall dude in chainmail and his cronies could go toe-to-toe with assassins. Skip ahead a few years and suddenly you're being harassed by a 70-year-old politician who has only one decent fighter on his payroll. What happened to the badass Templars? When did Haytham and El Tiburon become the exceptions to the rule, instead of the standard? And why do none of them have Eagle Vision? Does Eagle Vision and parkour make you a better person or something?

Story-wise, the Crusades was a time of knightly prowess, martial talent and war, so a Templar Grandmaster needed to be a solider. In later generations as civilization progressed, the Templars became less and less interested in combat.

In terms of Gameplay, Robert de Sable wasn't any harder to defeat than the others. You could simply counter him, get him off his feat and insta-kill him with the Hidden Blade or if you practiced the timing of the Hidden Blade Counter Kill, finish him in one go. The fact is Assassin's Creed is a hybrid game of Social Stealth/Traversal/Action, its not a purely combat game, not a purely stealth game and not a purely platform game, its a hybrid. So having a Templar grandmaster be a fighter is a matter of how skilled the player will become.

Rodrigo Borgia for instance is actually an impressive fighter, he sustains a mass duel between himself, Ezio and the Assassins, uses the Staff of Eden to nearly kill Ezio and then finally takes a lot of punches before he goes down, problem is that the actual fighting is not hard, its just elaborate and the mission to get to Rodrigo is quite elaborate too(and also insanely cool).

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 05:43 PM
Playing the first game and I had forgotten how much harder combat used to be. The Grandmaster was a seven foot tall dude in chainmail and his cronies could go toe-to-toe with assassins. Skip ahead a few years and suddenly you're being harassed by a 70-year-old politician who has only one decent fighter on his payroll. What happened to the badass Templars? When did Haytham and El Tiburon become the exceptions to the rule, instead of the standard? And why do none of them have Eagle Vision? Does Eagle Vision and parkour make you a better person or something?

Story-wise, the Crusades was a time of knightly prowess, martial talent and war, so a Templar Grandmaster needed to be a solider. In later generations as civilization progressed, the Templars became less and less interested in combat.

In terms of Gameplay, Robert de Sable wasn't any harder to defeat than the others. You could simply counter him, get him off his feat and insta-kill him with the Hidden Blade or if you practiced the timing of the Hidden Blade Counter Kill, finish him in one go. The fact is Assassin's Creed is a hybrid game of Social Stealth/Traversal/Action, its not a purely combat game, not a purely stealth game and not a purely platform game, its a hybrid. So having a Templar grandmaster be a fighter is a matter of how skilled the player will become.

Rodrigo Borgia for instance is actually an impressive fighter, he sustains a mass duel between himself, Ezio and the Assassins, uses the Staff of Eden to nearly kill Ezio and then finally takes a lot of punches before he goes down, problem is that the actual fighting is not hard, its just elaborate and the mission to get to Rodrigo is quite elaborate too(and also insanely cool).


Let's face it, the hardest fights in the series are the Legendary Ships battles.

Assassin_M
11-07-2014, 05:45 PM
Hmm Robert easily overpowered Altair back in the Temple, Rodrigo(an old fart) managed to hold his own against Ezio AND the other Assassins, Charles Lee managed to overpower Connor, Haytham is a pretty adept fighter too.

We'v had some pretty strong Templars with no Assassin background (although Haytham does kind of have that, since he was trained in combat by Edward at 8 but that was just basic Noble upbringing of the time. Fencing and the lot)

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 05:50 PM
Hmm Robert easily overpowered Altair back in the Temple, Rodrigo(an old fart) managed to hold his own against Ezio AND the other Assassins, Charles Lee managed to overpower Connor, Haytham is a pretty adept fighter too.

We'v had some pretty strong Templars with no Assassin background (although Haytham does kind of have that, since he was trained in combat by Edward at 8 but that was just basic Noble upbringing of the time. Fencing and the lot)

Fencing is not actual combat practice. I mean not in a real fight. Haytham as per Forsaken, served with the Coldstreams and is a former soldier. He trained under Birch and the Templars.

Laureno Torres is not a boss fight, its more about the environment, the death-trap Observatory with disintegrating force fields. Cesare Borgia is not that much of a fighter himself. The boss fight is the King Washington one in the DLC but that has nothing really to do with Combat, its just about using special abilities and light-shows.

Assassin's Creed is still waiting for its Arkham City Mr. Freeze Moment. The Legendary Ships were fun for that reason.

Assassin_M
11-07-2014, 05:55 PM
Fencing is not actual combat practice. I mean not in a real fight.
It actually can be. It's not like modern fencing, it was much more combat oriented in those days than today and besides, fencing has a lot to do with honing reflexes.


Haytham as per Forsaken, served with the Coldstreams and is a former soldier. He trained under Birch and the Templars.
Indeed, it's why I mentioned him as a strong Templar with no strong Assassin training.

ze_topazio
11-07-2014, 05:55 PM
Torres was in the Spanish army in his youth and Rogers was a privateer in his younger days, nothing indicates they weren't capable fighters just because Edward caught them off guard or in a position they couldn't fight back.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-08-2014, 01:34 AM
Templars have not been killers since the Crusades. That's a big part of how they can claim to be better than the Assassins. Unlike Assassins, Templars don't usually go around killing anyone who gets in their way. This is not a weakness - it's a strength.

OpticSpecs
11-08-2014, 04:04 AM
Eagle Vision is a dormant sixth sense that humans possess, as a result of being created by the First Civilization. Though each human holds the potential to utilize it, bloodlines of those whose distant ancestors have interbred with their creators display a greater concentration of the necessary genes, and thus are more likely to exhibit Eagle Vision.

Those who possess the gift are able to instinctively sense how people and objects relate to them, which manifests as a colored glow, much like an aura.

When an individual masters Eagle Vision, the ability can evolve to the more advanced Eagle Sense. This stage heightens all the senses of its user, allowing them to detect the heartbeat of a target in the area, or even foresee a target's path.

For this ability, a variety of colored glows are used to mark different people or objects. Red indicates enemies or spilled blood, blue indicates allies, white indicates sources of information or hiding spots, and gold indicates targets or objects of interest.

RA503
11-08-2014, 04:32 AM
The only more or less challenging battle in the entire series in my opinion is against Maria all the others is a joke like Rodrigo Borgia,Sadly, Assassins Creed is not good in ''Boss'' departiment Unlike series like Metal Gear Solid who is a stealth series but with awesome boss battles, The challenge in AC series come from tailling and any missions with obligatory stealth (those who cause authomatic desyncronization when enemy see you).

gnosis_guyver1
11-08-2014, 05:11 AM
Templars have not been killers since the Crusades. That's a big part of how they can claim to be better than the Assassins. Unlike Assassins, Templars don't usually go around killing anyone who gets in their way. This is not a weakness - it's a strength.

Agreed templars do not need everyone to be elite warriors/killers they have wealth of the world,its resources, armies at there beckon call. assassins do not have this thus all there agents have to be elite killers/warriors too small in number to afford otherwise.

pirate1802
11-08-2014, 06:53 AM
You're forgetting something OP. The first game was the only one when the 'Knights' Templar were public. They were a martial organization trained in all forms of warfare. No wonder they'd go tow to tow to Assassins in terms of physical strength. Then came the purge and the Templars had to go underground. They reorganized themselves and since then, their strength lie more in manipulating the events from the shadows than outright strength. In other words, their strength is brain, not brawn. In this scenario it makes perfect sense that the grandmaster, the highest position in their hierarchy would belong to a wizened weasel rather than a monster swordsman. Though there are still capable fighters in their ranks, this is no longer the requirement because obviously they are no longer a publicly acknowledged warfare unit.

Hope this answers your curiosity as to why Templars became Wimplars :)

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 07:45 AM
Fencing is not actual combat practice. I mean not in a real fight.

If you think that fencing is not real combat, then you won't enjoy Unity...

Fatal-Feit
11-08-2014, 08:02 AM
If you think that fencing is not real combat, then you won't enjoy Unity...

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Unity has fencing? :eek: Nvm, I was thinking of Holliwood fencing.

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 08:20 AM
Those who possess the gift are able to instinctively sense how people and objects relate to them, which manifests as a colored glow, much like an aura.

I remember, back when AC1 was released, that Eagle Vision was an instinctual sense of danger/safety, and that the coloured glow/aura was merely an animus effect, to help the user understand Eagle Vision, as they may or may not have it.

Could be wrong though.

I wonder how Eagle Vision will work in Rogue, seeing as Shay switches allegiances.


Whoa, whoa, whoa... Unity has fencing? :eek: Nvm, I was thinking of Holliwood fencing.

I sure as hell hope so, or else I sat through 2 hours of fencing demonstrations during gamescom for nothing...

LoyalACFan
11-08-2014, 08:22 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Unity has fencing? :eek: Nvm, I was thinking of Holliwood fencing.

Please stop using Comic Sans.

pirate1802
11-08-2014, 08:31 AM
ooo maybe I'll pick a signature font as well :rolleyes:

Hows this :)

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 08:32 AM
Please stop using Comic Sans.

Can I use Book Antiqua?


ooo maybe I'll pick a signature font as well :rolleyes:

Hows this :)

Georgia, nice :cool:

I think we're getting a bit off topic though :p

I actually liked how Torres was just a batty old man, it showed that people can be an antagonist even without being a big, intimidating foe.

Fatal-Feit
11-08-2014, 09:12 AM
Please stop using Comic Sans.

Never. Vive la révolution!

pirate1802
11-08-2014, 09:18 AM
I actually prefer a ratty wise man as a grandmaster than a master swordsman too. Anyone can be a final boss, but not everyone can be a templar grandmaster :cool:

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 09:35 AM
I actually prefer a ratty wise man as a grandmaster than a master swordsman too. Anyone can be a final boss, but not everyone can be a templar grandmaster :cool:

Too true, too true!

Ratty old strategist > intimidating young brute!


Never. Vive la révolution!

Vive la révolution!

GreatBeyonder
11-08-2014, 10:54 AM
You're forgetting something OP. The first game was the only one when the 'Knights' Templar were public. They were a martial organization trained in all forms of warfare. No wonder they'd go tow to tow to Assassins in terms of physical strength. Then came the purge and the Templars had to go underground. They reorganized themselves and since then, their strength lie more in manipulating the events from the shadows than outright strength. In other words, their strength is brain, not brawn. In this scenario it makes perfect sense that the grandmaster, the highest position in their hierarchy would belong to a wizened weasel rather than a monster swordsman. Though there are still capable fighters in their ranks, this is no longer the requirement because obviously they are no longer a publicly acknowledged warfare unit.

Hope this answers your curiosity as to why Templars became Wimplars :)

This is probably the best response so far. Still, I'm a little curious why the Templars would fail to maintain a martial countermeasure against Assassins. Yes, for the purposes of the overall agenda, it's a bit overkill, but not when you have to contend with psychic ninjas on a regular basis. Is the Assassin training regimen so unique that Abstergo had to invent the Animus just to replicate it?

I realize that, as a form of wish fullfillment, you are essentially playing 'the ultimate badass' and that's fine. I'm just curious why the Templars always seem so unprepared when I show up. I think that so far, only Robert, Rodrigo, Haytham, and Torres prepare for your coming. I realize they're in charge for a reason, but you'd think the rest might take better precautions. Imagine if every target had their own El Tiburon, hanging around, forcing you to watch and time your approach even more carefully, instead of just Generic Guard #2,987,385,387.

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 10:57 AM
This is probably the best response so far. Still, I'm a little curious why the Templars would fail to maintain a martial countermeasure against Assassins. Yes, for the purposes of the overall agenda, it's a bit overkill, but not when you have to contend with psychic ninjas on a regular basis. Is the Assassin training regimen so unique that Abstergo had to invent the Animus just to replicate it?

I realize that, as a form of wish fullfillment, you are essentially playing 'the ultimate badass' and that's fine. I'm just curious why the Templars always seem so unprepared when I show up. I think that so far, only Robert, Rodrigo, Haytham, and Torres prepare for your coming. I realize they're in charge for a reason, but you'd think the rest might take better precautions. Imagine if every target had their own El Tiburon, hanging around, forcing you to watch and time your approach even more carefully, instead of just Generic Guard #2,987,385,387.

Remember Leandros?
I thought he'd be the main antagonist of ACR
But bye bye scarface!

He wasn't prepared at all, and he was definitely more of a fighter than a thinker
Rodrigo, Robert, Torres and Haytham were all thinkers, and they were the ones that were prepared

GreatBeyonder
11-08-2014, 11:06 AM
Remember Leandros?
I thought he'd be the main antagonist of ACR
But bye bye scarface!

He wasn't prepared at all, and he was definitely more of a fighter than a thinker
Rodrigo, Robert, Torres and Haytham were all thinkers, and they were the ones that were prepared

Judging by Ezio's look when he gets hit by that first arrow, he clearly wasn't expecting a Templar presence of any sort. Still, Leandros did get the drop on him, even though it's a different scenario than the typical "Assassin kills Templar" setup. I also forgot about Ahmet, who recognized Ezio when Suleiman introduced him.

LoyalACFan
11-08-2014, 11:07 AM
Never. Vive la révolution!

I'm asking nicely.


Judging by Ezio's look when he gets hit by that first arrow, he clearly wasn't expecting a Templar presence of any sort. Still, Leandros did get the drop on him, even though it's a different scenario than the typical "Assassin kills Templar" setup. I also forgot about Ahmet, who recognized Ezio when Suleiman introduced him.

Lol, he said flat-out that he WAS expecting Templars in his letter to Claudia. The look of surprise on his face didn't mean "ermahgerd Templars, didn't see that coming!" It meant "ow, Jesus, somebody just ****ing shot me, ow, **** I'm bleeding."

Fatal-Feit
11-08-2014, 11:13 AM
I'm asking nicely.

Fine! Only because I like you.

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 11:14 AM
Judging by Ezio's look when he gets hit by that first arrow, he clearly wasn't expecting a Templar presence of any sort. Still, Leandros did get the drop on him, even though it's a different scenario than the typical "Assassin kills Templar" setup. I also forgot about Ahmet, who recognized Ezio when Suleiman introduced him.

But what would I find there? A host of eager Templars, as I fear most strongly? Or nothing more than the whistling of the cold and lonely wind?

pirate1802
11-08-2014, 11:30 AM
But what would I find there? A host of eager Templars, as I fear most strongly? Or nothing more than the whistling of the cold and lonely wind?

Man, that was one fine, fine, fine, fine monologue. Kudos to Darby.

LoyalACFan
11-08-2014, 11:33 AM
Fine! Only because I like you.

Thanks bud *hugs*

Hans684
11-08-2014, 12:25 PM
I'm asking nicely.



Lol, he said flat-out that he WAS expecting Templars in his letter to Claudia. The look of surprise on his face didn't mean "ermahgerd Templars, didn't see that coming!" It meant "ow, Jesus, somebody just ****ing shot me, ow, **** I'm bleeding."

Incorrect, it meant "GOD! COME ON! Whoever shot that arrow's gonna pay."

cawatrooper9
11-08-2014, 04:34 PM
I think there's a lot of variety is the Templars since the first game. Yeah, we get the ones that are less physically impressive, like the Barbarigo family- but they're based on a real historical scandal. It would have been silly to make them fighting machines.

Then there seems to be a recent trope of the "muscleman". The Barbarigos had Dante Moro. Manuel had Shakhulu. Torres had El Tiburon.
Personally, I like the balance of having a larger variety of Templars. Plus, the game is about assassinating targets, not necessarily having long drawn out boss fights. Remember how silly it seemed to have Ezio fight with that sword sponge Rodrigo for minutes on end?

LoyalACFan
11-08-2014, 10:58 PM
Incorrect, it meant "GOD! COME ON! Whoever shot that arrow's gonna pay."

Enter bald guy with a caaaaape

Farlander1991
11-08-2014, 11:10 PM
Nothing beats "Nod at the bird and PEOPLE DIE - everywhere, PEOPLE DIE"
,,,,,,
"Target doesn't die, he's fine, target sends horsemen to die..."
....
"Kill the horse, the rider falls down, kill the rider, the riders fall down... Target's still fine.... Target nods and some other guards that were hiding in pillars come out and then take their formation then target pulls out his sword then goes to smell his sword (not sure why) mysterious hooded man joined by.... ooooother.... hooooooooded.... peeeeeople.... YOU'RE NEEEXT.... ruuuuning.... ruuuuuuning.... SLOW MOTION JUMP AT ATTACK..."
Man, that song, it will never leave my head :p :D