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PBNA-Boosher
03-28-2004, 05:29 PM
Hey everyone, I thought we could all take a break from the bug reports and flames, troll threads and non-troll threads, the "I LOVE THIS SIM" threads and the polls.

My neighbor, Anna, was a little more than than 9 years old when the Germans invaded Warsaw. She grew up in the suburbs of Warsaw but they had an apartment in the city as well because her father needed to be close to his factory. During the winter and summer months, they'd live in the suburbs, and during spring and autumn, they would live in the city. However, in 1939, that all changed. As soon as the bombs started to fall on Warsaw, Anna's mother took her family out to the suburbs so they would be safe. As it turns out, the block next to theirs had been completely destroyed, and thousands of other people were homeless.
Anna's childhood was very different from our childhoods. For one, she, being the oldest, bore the responsibility of looking after her 4 brothers when their mother and father were out. She also cooked, cleaned, and kept the house with her mother when she got home from her schooling with her siblings. In short, she had a full time job as an "assistant-mom" before she even reached the age of 10.

These few stories are some things Anna has told to me during the times I went over her house to listen to her stories. (She also is an excellent cook!)


Story #1: Nearly Abducted:

During the occupation of Warsaw by the Germans, Anna said to me it was one of the worst times in her life, but not THE worst. I'll tell more on that later.
To get one thing straight, the Nazis hated the Slavic peoples as much as they did the Jews, the homosexuals, the blacks, and the handicapped. Hitler himself even said that the Slavs must be wiped from the earth.
This did not stop him, however, from stealing slavic children from their parents at early ages, that age range being from infancy to 16 years old. These stolen children were sent off to Germany and Berlin to be adopted by Nazi Parents so that these children would be raised as Nazi Youths. The people responsible for the stealing of the Slavic children were SS women, who regularly patrolled the streets at certain times of day. If they saw anyone they liked, they picked them up, flung them into trucks, and carted them off to Berlin. The parents were never notified their children were gone.
One day in late 1940, Anna was walking home to her apartment in Warsaw after school with her brothers. They spotted two SS women walking across the street from her. Anna had to cross the street to get home.She led her brothers across the street and started walking home with them, but the SS women started to follow. Anna was not fluent in German, but she had some Yiddish as some of her friends in Warsaw were Jews, who were long since gone. The advantage of this is that Yiddish is very similar to German. As Anna started to pick up the pace, as to get her and her brothers away from the Nazi child abductors, she listened to see if she could hear any signs of their interest in stealing them.
"One of the women," Anna said to me, "had blonde hair and green eyes. I noticed she was talking to her friend in very fast German. I could not make out a very clear message, but what I could make out was all I needed to hear."

Anna told me that the SS women said to each other, "She is a very pretty girl..."

At these words, Anna looked back at the women, who were starting to draw up pieces of paper for their seizure. Before they could ask what her name was, Anna told her brothers to run for home. They were out of sight of the two Nazi women before they could even state the first syllable of their sentence, "Come with me, children."
Luckily, that was the only time Anna ever came close to being abducted during the war. Unfortunately, though, several of her friends dissappeared from the city, and were never heard from again.

Story #2: A Birthday Party

The Winter of 1942 in Warsaw was a cold and bitter one. Food was scarce for the civilian population, and disease was running high. Luckily the Nazi doctors felt enough sympathy to give out shots to those that were ill and allowed local doctors to re-open their practices to heal the sick.
Anna recently had to move out of her city apartment so that the Warsaw Ghetto for the Jews could be built, and her father had to leave his factory to a Nazi. With the father unemployed, Anna left school two hours early every day to help her mother with her new business to bring income into the family, laundry. The, half an hour after school ended, Anna would wash the soap and dirt off of her arms and walk back to the school to pick up her brothers and walk them back home.
It was one day in this cold winter of 1942 when Anna's mother's birthday was drawing near. Anna's mother turned to her five days before the birthday and decided, "Anna, I'm going to have a birthday party and I'm going to invite the whole of our street!" (They lived now on a small dead end, which supported around 35 families. All of whom had lost their homes by the placement of the Warsaw Ghetto.)
Shocked by this news, Anna immediately asked how they were going to have a party if they could not feed the guests. Her mother replied simply, and dug in the empty pantry, behind a false door that Anna never knew was there, and she brought out a large piece of horse meat.
"Anna," her mothe said, "I'm going to have this party and we're all going to have horse meat!"
So the next day Anna went to deliver the invitations, which were written in small cursive writing on paper napkins. Every family said they'd be delighted to come.
Now is a timely time to tell you that for the past month, the Nazis had not been taking just children, but entire families, and carting them off to separate work camps.
Anyway, the night of the party came, and everyone gathered inside Anna's new apartment building, candles were lit, and there was dancing, singing, and everyone thoroughly enjoyed their piece of horse meat. Nobody had eaten meat in a very long time. It was that time, when Anna was halfway through a dance with her brother, when her father, disheveled but still an upright and proud man, called her over to the window of the apartment.
Her father told her to lean out the window of the apartment. Anna said to me, while I ate dinner with her this past week, "I leaned out that window, and I saw a horrible sight. Down the street came not ten, not twenty, but seventy five SS troops marching and twelve Opel Blitz trucks. Each truck had another five men with sub-machine guns on them, and the trucks stopped right in front of Anna's street, about a quarter kilometer away from the house. The truck's lights all were shining down the street. The SS troops were standing with their rifles, staring menacingly at the source of loudness and light.
Anna's father said to her, in a fake calm voice, "Anna, what do we do? I do not want to be responsible for the deaths of these families!"
Anna thought for a minute, then replied, "Father, we must not let the party stop. If we tell everyone that the SS is outside our door, they will all run for it and be caught. If they stay here, there is less of a chance of the Nazis coming in to disturb us. They would only grab us if we scatter ourselves." So the party went on, and Anna stayed with her father, watching out the window for a full two hours. Midway through the third hour, the Opel Blitz trucks started down their road. They came closer, and closer, and finally, they were past. They went about a kilometer in the opposite direction of Anna's apartment, and raided the buildings there. Anna feels that if the guests had been told about the problem, they would all have been sent to work camps. They never told their mother or brothers about the close call they had that night.

Story #3: Hiding the Jews

When the Nazis first Occupied Poland and Warsaw in 1939, they immediately started carting away the Jews. Knowing that Anna's mother was a good hearted person, the Jews frequently visited her and gave her donations to help pay for the apartment, as Anna's father was now unemployed. The sums of money that the Jews contributed to Anna's family were able to last them throughout the war, even when the Jews were long gone.
Even though the family was still living in their own apartment, conditions were very crowded. Even though Anna's mother wanted to hide the Jews, there just wasn't any room too. However, Anna knew of some places where the Jews could be hidden in the neighborhood. The Jews would hide in the bushes behind the apartmen during the day, and during the night, Anna and the Jews would sneak out to the hiding places. Anna said that of the Jews she helped hide, almost 70% of them survived the war.


I hope you guys liked these! If you want, I can post some more. Remember, Anna is a real person, and these are real stories. Please, give me some feedback, I'm sure she'd be happy to have some from you guys.

PBNA-Boosher
03-28-2004, 05:29 PM
Hey everyone, I thought we could all take a break from the bug reports and flames, troll threads and non-troll threads, the "I LOVE THIS SIM" threads and the polls.

My neighbor, Anna, was a little more than than 9 years old when the Germans invaded Warsaw. She grew up in the suburbs of Warsaw but they had an apartment in the city as well because her father needed to be close to his factory. During the winter and summer months, they'd live in the suburbs, and during spring and autumn, they would live in the city. However, in 1939, that all changed. As soon as the bombs started to fall on Warsaw, Anna's mother took her family out to the suburbs so they would be safe. As it turns out, the block next to theirs had been completely destroyed, and thousands of other people were homeless.
Anna's childhood was very different from our childhoods. For one, she, being the oldest, bore the responsibility of looking after her 4 brothers when their mother and father were out. She also cooked, cleaned, and kept the house with her mother when she got home from her schooling with her siblings. In short, she had a full time job as an "assistant-mom" before she even reached the age of 10.

These few stories are some things Anna has told to me during the times I went over her house to listen to her stories. (She also is an excellent cook!)


Story #1: Nearly Abducted:

During the occupation of Warsaw by the Germans, Anna said to me it was one of the worst times in her life, but not THE worst. I'll tell more on that later.
To get one thing straight, the Nazis hated the Slavic peoples as much as they did the Jews, the homosexuals, the blacks, and the handicapped. Hitler himself even said that the Slavs must be wiped from the earth.
This did not stop him, however, from stealing slavic children from their parents at early ages, that age range being from infancy to 16 years old. These stolen children were sent off to Germany and Berlin to be adopted by Nazi Parents so that these children would be raised as Nazi Youths. The people responsible for the stealing of the Slavic children were SS women, who regularly patrolled the streets at certain times of day. If they saw anyone they liked, they picked them up, flung them into trucks, and carted them off to Berlin. The parents were never notified their children were gone.
One day in late 1940, Anna was walking home to her apartment in Warsaw after school with her brothers. They spotted two SS women walking across the street from her. Anna had to cross the street to get home.She led her brothers across the street and started walking home with them, but the SS women started to follow. Anna was not fluent in German, but she had some Yiddish as some of her friends in Warsaw were Jews, who were long since gone. The advantage of this is that Yiddish is very similar to German. As Anna started to pick up the pace, as to get her and her brothers away from the Nazi child abductors, she listened to see if she could hear any signs of their interest in stealing them.
"One of the women," Anna said to me, "had blonde hair and green eyes. I noticed she was talking to her friend in very fast German. I could not make out a very clear message, but what I could make out was all I needed to hear."

Anna told me that the SS women said to each other, "She is a very pretty girl..."

At these words, Anna looked back at the women, who were starting to draw up pieces of paper for their seizure. Before they could ask what her name was, Anna told her brothers to run for home. They were out of sight of the two Nazi women before they could even state the first syllable of their sentence, "Come with me, children."
Luckily, that was the only time Anna ever came close to being abducted during the war. Unfortunately, though, several of her friends dissappeared from the city, and were never heard from again.

Story #2: A Birthday Party

The Winter of 1942 in Warsaw was a cold and bitter one. Food was scarce for the civilian population, and disease was running high. Luckily the Nazi doctors felt enough sympathy to give out shots to those that were ill and allowed local doctors to re-open their practices to heal the sick.
Anna recently had to move out of her city apartment so that the Warsaw Ghetto for the Jews could be built, and her father had to leave his factory to a Nazi. With the father unemployed, Anna left school two hours early every day to help her mother with her new business to bring income into the family, laundry. The, half an hour after school ended, Anna would wash the soap and dirt off of her arms and walk back to the school to pick up her brothers and walk them back home.
It was one day in this cold winter of 1942 when Anna's mother's birthday was drawing near. Anna's mother turned to her five days before the birthday and decided, "Anna, I'm going to have a birthday party and I'm going to invite the whole of our street!" (They lived now on a small dead end, which supported around 35 families. All of whom had lost their homes by the placement of the Warsaw Ghetto.)
Shocked by this news, Anna immediately asked how they were going to have a party if they could not feed the guests. Her mother replied simply, and dug in the empty pantry, behind a false door that Anna never knew was there, and she brought out a large piece of horse meat.
"Anna," her mothe said, "I'm going to have this party and we're all going to have horse meat!"
So the next day Anna went to deliver the invitations, which were written in small cursive writing on paper napkins. Every family said they'd be delighted to come.
Now is a timely time to tell you that for the past month, the Nazis had not been taking just children, but entire families, and carting them off to separate work camps.
Anyway, the night of the party came, and everyone gathered inside Anna's new apartment building, candles were lit, and there was dancing, singing, and everyone thoroughly enjoyed their piece of horse meat. Nobody had eaten meat in a very long time. It was that time, when Anna was halfway through a dance with her brother, when her father, disheveled but still an upright and proud man, called her over to the window of the apartment.
Her father told her to lean out the window of the apartment. Anna said to me, while I ate dinner with her this past week, "I leaned out that window, and I saw a horrible sight. Down the street came not ten, not twenty, but seventy five SS troops marching and twelve Opel Blitz trucks. Each truck had another five men with sub-machine guns on them, and the trucks stopped right in front of Anna's street, about a quarter kilometer away from the house. The truck's lights all were shining down the street. The SS troops were standing with their rifles, staring menacingly at the source of loudness and light.
Anna's father said to her, in a fake calm voice, "Anna, what do we do? I do not want to be responsible for the deaths of these families!"
Anna thought for a minute, then replied, "Father, we must not let the party stop. If we tell everyone that the SS is outside our door, they will all run for it and be caught. If they stay here, there is less of a chance of the Nazis coming in to disturb us. They would only grab us if we scatter ourselves." So the party went on, and Anna stayed with her father, watching out the window for a full two hours. Midway through the third hour, the Opel Blitz trucks started down their road. They came closer, and closer, and finally, they were past. They went about a kilometer in the opposite direction of Anna's apartment, and raided the buildings there. Anna feels that if the guests had been told about the problem, they would all have been sent to work camps. They never told their mother or brothers about the close call they had that night.

Story #3: Hiding the Jews

When the Nazis first Occupied Poland and Warsaw in 1939, they immediately started carting away the Jews. Knowing that Anna's mother was a good hearted person, the Jews frequently visited her and gave her donations to help pay for the apartment, as Anna's father was now unemployed. The sums of money that the Jews contributed to Anna's family were able to last them throughout the war, even when the Jews were long gone.
Even though the family was still living in their own apartment, conditions were very crowded. Even though Anna's mother wanted to hide the Jews, there just wasn't any room too. However, Anna knew of some places where the Jews could be hidden in the neighborhood. The Jews would hide in the bushes behind the apartmen during the day, and during the night, Anna and the Jews would sneak out to the hiding places. Anna said that of the Jews she helped hide, almost 70% of them survived the war.


I hope you guys liked these! If you want, I can post some more. Remember, Anna is a real person, and these are real stories. Please, give me some feedback, I'm sure she'd be happy to have some from you guys.

LEXX_Luthor
03-28-2004, 06:07 PM
Thanx, that was Awsum!

More soon, NOW! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif


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PBNA-Boosher
03-28-2004, 06:49 PM
Okay, you asked for it, here's one more, and a bump!

Story #4: Don't cry on my Shoulder!

"In late February, 1945, the Germans in Warsaw started to get very worried. The Russians were close to them, and getting closer every day. They kept to their duties, but they never were as strict as they had been." Anna said to me one evening last week. She was telling me the story of how she and her brothers played in the streets. Now, with the Russians approaching, their planes flew overhead of Warsaw, and it was a welcoming sight to the sore eyes of the Poles. Anna's mother did not want them outside, so they would go slowly after school, playing Axis versus Allies as the Russian and German artillery exchanged fire over the city. Nobody wanted to be the axis, so they threw stones at drainage ditches instead. One day, when the got home, a Nazi soldier was inside their kitchen, talking to their mother. A high pitched sob was coming from the kitchen door. Assuming something bad was going to happen to their mother, Anna and her brothers burst through the door and surrounded the Nazi soldier. It turned out that the crying was coming from the soldier himself. He was a regular in the German Wermacht, and was worried that he would not live to see his girlfriend and mother again. "As much as my mother tried to calm him down, the sobbing grew worse." Anna said. "My mother tried to help him understand that if he could get out early, and run, he would most likely make it back home safely. But the soldier could only recount the people whose deaths he had been responsible for. He felt ashamed, and horrible, and there was not a sorrier sight on the earth that could have made him look happy. After hearing enough of this crying, Anna's mother said, "Enough! I agreed to listen to your sorrows and to to help you recover, but this is enough! Your people have oppressed my people long enough, and no matter how hard you cry, the wrongs you have done my family will never be forgiven. OUT! I will not listen to a Nazi pig crying on my shoulder!"

The nazi picked up his equipment, slung his rifle over his shoulder, and burst out of the house. Moments later, down the road, Anna heard a faint gunshot that sounded like the crack of a pistol. Her mother would not let her go outside to see. "It doesn't matter, Anna," she said, "you know just as well as I do what that gunshot was."

DONB3397
03-28-2004, 07:13 PM
Can you tell us how you know Anna?

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PBNA-Boosher
03-28-2004, 07:23 PM
Sure, Anna is my neighbor. I shoveled her walkway for her last week. I go over her house once a week to talk, say hi. Sometimes I stay for dinner, other times my mom and I go out with her to a movie or a restaurant, or both. If you mean how do I know her since she was Polish and I'm American, it's because she moved to America in 1968-9. I've got a funny story about her visit to Poland after she got her citizenship here in America, but I'll save that for awhile until everyone reads these other stories.

DONB3397
03-28-2004, 08:17 PM
In February, we had a thread in which people identified acquaintances or family members who had experiences in WWII. The stories were funny, sad, tragic...and, since they were from all over the world, showed that there was suffering no matter what country you lived in or fought for.

Anna's stories would have been a fine addition. Here's the thread (below), and keep Anna's stories coming.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=898107402&r=755105812#755105812

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PBNA-Boosher
03-28-2004, 09:06 PM
Ah, I remember that thread. I'm not sure, there have been a number of threads like that here. I know I responded to several of them, yet I have only really been visiting Anna for the past few weeks. It was over these weeks that she and I talked about her stories and life experiences. In fact, why don't I tell another two right now?

Story #5: The Escape from Warsaw

This takes place in late February 1945 as well. Since the Russians were going to invade Warsaw very soon, Anna's mother saw no reason to stay in the city, and decided to move her family back to the suburbs for good. There was just one problem. The Germans weren't letting anyonoe in or out of the city. They were afraid someone was a spy or, worse, that they would help bring the Russians in. Anna's mother was a very bold woman, and it was really her fortitude that had pushed the family along throughout the war.
Anyway, this February day was a bitter one for Anna, because her family needed to get to their home in the suburbs to get away from the danger. They took whatever they could with them to ensure that looting was not a major financial asset, but some of their most rich and worthy possesions were too large to carry even in the car. (The furniture, portraits of family, etc..) In fact, the portraits of Anna's great Grandparents is now sitting in an art museum in either Poland or France, I believe it is the latter of the two.
Anna's mother walked up to the private standing in the way of the gate blocking the entrance and exit to the city. She asked politely to be able to get past the barrier. The German soldier said nothing. Anna's mother asked again more sternly, and this time, the German looked down his nose at her and said, "No woman, go away to your home." in crude Polish.
Anna's mother now got an idea. Since the Germans are very fearful of being accused of insubordiation, Anna's mother flared her nostrils, reddened her face, and stared right up into the cold eyes of the German guard.

"Where is your superior officer!" She snarled at him. Anna summed up the next few minutes like this:
"At once, when my mother spat this question out into the guard's face, his expression dropped, and he ran of to get his superior. my mother waited, and finally when the guard came back with his superior, My mother looked right up into his eyes, like an innocent lady, and said, 'Sir, I was trying to get to the suburbs to see my sister, who is starving in her small wooden house and freezing to death. We wished to go to live with her until she gets well. You may inspect our car if you like, you'll find blankets, and some of our more expensive possesions that we are selling so that we may buy her food and wood for our fireplace to keep her warm.'

The officer in front of our car asked to see some of the precious items. My mother motioned for me to bring out a very ornately decorated wooden chest. The German officer looked at the chest in my hands, and motioned for me to put it down. He opened the chest. Inside was our family's silver diningware, that had been in our family's possesion for the past one hundred and fifty years."

Anna's mother then began showing the officer the various decorations and their family emblem stamped on each piece of the silverware. After ten minutes of this showing, the officer said, "I will see to it that you get passage to your sister. I will deal with the insubordinate fool to my right later. As for the silverware, how much would you like for it?"
Anna's mother, happier than she'd Anna had ever seen her, discussed price with the officer for two minutes. The eventual price they came to settle at is the equivalent of close to $5,500 modern U.S. dollars. They were able to go to the suburbs and wait out the rest of the war there.

Then, ten years ago, Anna recieved a phone call from a curator in a museum in Romania.
Anna recalled the situation:
"I picked up the phone at 9:00 in the morning and greeted the man who was calling. In a heavy Romanian accent, but speaking in English, a man's voice asked if I was a member of a certain family. His heavy accent disguised the name, until I sounded out the name for myself, and found it was my own! 'Yes,' I replied, 'that is my name, why have you called me here in America?' I asked him.
'Well, to be frank, madam, I have just traveled all the way from Romania to purchase a set of almost 200 year old silver dining ware. I won the auction, and I saw that on every knife, fork, and spoon, there is your family crest.'
My heart seemed to stop. My mother had sold some of the most precious family heirlooms we owned for food money, and it had now ended back up in my hands.
'Madam, if you are willing to take it off of my hands for a price of 2000 dollars it is yours. I know it might seem like a bit much, but I just paid 25,000 dollars for these.'
And so, after I had not seen my most precious family heirloom in forty years, it now belonged to me again, and I was able to buy it back for less than half we sold it for in the first place!"

Story #6: A Mistake at the Beach

Two years after the War ended, Anna's mother decided to use the rest of the silverware money to take the family on a vacation to the beach. They went to France, and swam on the Normandy Beaches where the major assault onto Europe had taken place three years earlier. One day, while Anna and her mother were shopping near the Ardennes forests after taking a train to see some outlying areas of France and Germany, Anna's four brothers ran off into the forest itself. Anna's mother had strictly forbade them to do this because of all the horrible things still left in there. Undetonated mines, unfired ammunition, and bayonets stuck up all over the place. Well, the boys went in anyway. They appeared a few hours later and rejoined Anna and her mother on the train back to their resort. After the family went home, a week went by as it normally did after the war. Anna took her brothers to school, and when it was over, they all went home together. Though things were a lot more strict under control of the Russians, and Anna said it could sometimes get barbaric. at the end of their first week back, a box appeared on the front doorstep of Anna's house. The boys eagerly pulled it in. Anna waited to see what was inside. They opened the box right when their mother walked in on them to wish them a good afternoon. They were grounded for the next few weeks, as inside the box were unused grenades, Nazi helmets, bayonets, unexploded ammunition, parts of Uniforms, a whole MP-40 sub machine gun, six Lugers, bullet cartrigides, parts of Mauser KAR-98's, and pieces of other weapons.
When Anna's mother heard where they found this, she went crazy, and dumped it all in the trash.

After hearing this story, I too went crazy. As unfortunate as the history of the Holocaust is, the material that Anna's brother's collected in the Ardennes forests could amount to more than 3.5 million U.S. dollars in todays world. Think how many copies of IL2 FB AEP that is...

Hope you liked those, please, more feedback! I'll post more when I hear more, as her stories must be passed on so that her negative experiences are never shared by anyone else again.

T_O_A_D
03-28-2004, 10:21 PM
Keep em coming enjoyng them. Keep visiting her and let here pass on her truths about the war so that they will not fade away on her passing someday. If possible record them with tape preferebly video. They will add a tremendious collection of leasons you can pass on to your siblings and grand children some day as well as us. All to often us younger than those from all ages forget to recieve the gifts of reason and story telling as used by our forefathers. We are hooke don TV PC's and othe faster less personal ways of comunication. She is a goldmine needing panned. Send her are warm thoughts.
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AdmiralWarlord
03-28-2004, 10:36 PM
What does she think of the Russians? What does she think of the Russians who liberated them?

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 09:53 AM
Poland liberated by Russia?! Is there no subject called "history" in USA?
In 1939 Russia conquered Poland, or better said, the part of Poland Stalin got from Hitler after the "Hitler-Stalin-Pact", which was the result of the negotiation between Ribbentrob and Molotow.
The Russians mudered the surviving Polish soldiers, who could escape from the Wehrmacht.

During the occupation there was a Polish government in London exile arranging a rise against Germany beginning 1st august 1944 in Warzaw led by General Bor-Komorowski and his "Home-Army", when Stalins troops were in sight of Warzaw. The General hat the hope that the Red Army would support him. This did not happen. Only the western allies send some air support.
After fierce fightings, destroying Warzaw one more time, the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS slaughtered the "Home-Army" and AFTERWARDS the Red Army moved to Warzaw and "liberated" it.
Stalin meanwhile built up his own Polish Commitee of National Liberation, which was in fact just a marionette of Stalin and their successors were reigning and oppressing the Polish people until the 80ties.

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Mon March 29 2004 at 09:07 AM.]

maxim26
03-29-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Poland liberated by Russia?! Is there no subject called "history" in USA?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actualy you are wrong. Hystory in USA is tought very well. But, probably as in any other country it is alitle bit altered in favour of it's own interests.

When the WWII broke out. Europe was defenceless. And the facts thet Hitler decided to get some "living space" on the East was very good for British and Americans. Now they had to decide wat to do. It was no secret that Soviet Russia was big enemy of free world, despite the fact thet Soviet Russia appeared as a result of WWI, wich was started to satisfy the worled of capital. Americans and British had another option - Hitler, but they considered it as more dengerouse. So, in this way Sovier Union turened from enemy into ally. Russians got help, but not exectly the help they ecpected. Stalin demanded the opening of second front, but instead he got landlease. Anyway its better then nothing. So the battle with Natzi Germany was going on and Stalin for Allies was a hero. Cherchil even granted him a title of the knight and knight sward was handed to Stakin from his hands. I recomend you to see the actual footage. The sword is bigger then Stalin itself and he almost droped it.

When the war was over, everything returened on it's places. Soviets became enamies again and hystory was tought accordinly. Actualy the same thing is true for Soviet Union. Soviet hystorians were also droping all the good facts about allies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In 1939 Russia conquered Poland, or better said, the part of Poland Stalin got from Hitler after the "Hitler-Stalin-Pact", which was the result of the negotiation between Ribbentrob and Molotow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, this is true. But as I told above, western hystorians droped some significant facts. These facts are: first, land Soviet Union got as a result of Molotov-Ribbentrob Pact were the land thet Russian Empire lost as a result of WWI. And second and the most important fact is thet these lands were not Polish, it was Western Ukraine and Belorussia. After these land were taken back from Poland Soviets reunified Ukraine as one republic, this happend first time in 600 years of Polish and Russian agression of Ukraine. Though Ukraine got rid of Polish agrassion, they still have to go long 50 years to get rid of Russian agression.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
During the occupation there was a Polish government in London exile arranging a rise against Germany beginning 1st august 1944 in Warzaw led by General Bor-Komorowski and his "Home-Army", when Stalins troops were in sight of Warzaw. The General hat the hope that the Red Army would support him. This did not happen. Only the western allies send some air support<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All right, this happend almost in the end of the war. And these fact is well remembered by western hystorians. Now lets take a look and the beggining of the was on facts, that were dropped.

First fact. When WWI was over, Poland received as a result of Treaty of Versailles part of West Prussia, which was transfered from defeated Germany. This land was called Polish Corridor, because it had a shape of stripe, which separated Prussia from the rest of Germany. English gave this land to Poland to weaken Germany. Gemans were not happy with this situation and Hitler played very well on peoples feeling. Of cause, for Germans invasion of Poland was just. Hitler before the start of invasion gave a choice to Polish government to return the land, but Polish considered it army very stong and refused. Plus (this is very important) English convinced Poland that they will protact them in case of invasion. And this was the way WWI broke out. German army invaded Poland and defeated them in 2 weeks. English according to their promises declared the war to Germany, but in reality they didn't to anythig to protect Poland. ENYTHING. And the period thet was called Strange War started. The strange war because the war was actualy declared, but there were no actual military actions.

So, please, learn hystory unbiased, from many different resources, even your enemy resources. And dont take what you've been taled without thinking and analysing it.

[This message was edited by maxim26 on Mon March 29 2004 at 09:48 AM.]

PBNA-Boosher
03-29-2004, 11:07 AM
Actually, I was afraid to post it before, but now that you've asked the question, I fear I must answer it.

Though Anna and her family were grateful to be liberated from the Nazi oppression, they soon found out that the Russians in a way, were worse. They weren't sent off to work camps, nor were their children stolen, but overall, economic conditions were very bad, and free poles had trouble with the newer form of government. Anna's father was very annoyed with them. Here's another story for you guys.

Story #7: Almost didn't make it back...

After Anna came to America, she made sure she got her citizenship before she visited her family again. AFter a period of fifteen years, Anna decided to see her family in Poland. She got her U.S. passport, and left the following month after her decision.
Anna had a great time seeing her family, and since she was an "American" now, she was a big hit in the suburbs of Warsaw. Her mother was getting older, and wasn't able to do as many things as she used to, but she was still as stern and cheerful as ever.
Then, Anna's uncle came to see her on the day her visa would have expired. So Anna's mother pushed her into prolonging her visa in Poland for another day. They went to the customs department to get an extension on her visa.
Well, the customs agents saw her passport, which said she was of polish descent, and came from Poland fifteen years previously. Well, it was just about then when they locked Anna and her mother in a room and took Anna's passport. They waited in that room contemplating what the Polish puppet authorities would do to her. Luckily, after many terse arguments and heart stopping silences, the authorities approved the extra day, and Anna spent the day with her uncle before leaving in the morning. Now that's whay you call a close one!

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 11:20 AM
@maxim

To be honest, I don't know how to interpret your post.
You did not deny that Poland was occupied by Russia, not liberated - trust me, I spoke to a lot of Polish joung and older people.

You are right, England gave guaranties, which were not fulfilled. But since Germany's defeat in WWI Polish government became very agressive, as well. They thought, they were strong enough to humilate Germany in any diplomatic concern, because they felt mighty allies behind them.
Although they were afraid of the German remilitarisation, there was no significant change in politics, even when Germany and SU had several arrangements like the treaty of Rapallo.
Of course, Hitler wanted to attack Poland and what ever Poland may had done, Hitler's decision was made long before.
Germany attacked Poland and afterwards Russia did.
I know also about the long struggle in eastern Europe, concerning Ukraine.

Nonetheless, neither Germany nor Russia had the right to "liberate" Old Prussia or Ukraine by an occupation of Poland.

The territories of the "Russian Empire" were unjustified at all, think on all these ethnic groups supressed by Russia (Empire, SU, what Russian state you want)
West Prussia was in fact always throughout history more Polish than German, just the opposite to Silesia or East Prussia.

What is true, is that Poland had always been a puppy of the mighty neighbours Russia, Austria, Prussia, Sweden after the decline of the Polish great power in the 16th century. The several seperations of Poland approve that.
The communist terror was only the last chapter of this sad story.

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Mon March 29 2004 at 10:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Mon March 29 2004 at 10:32 AM.]

maxim26
03-29-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
To be honest, I don't know how to interpret your post.
You did not deny that Poland was occupied by Russia, not liberated.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The purpose of my post wat to sho thet there is not white or black in the Hystory, but most part it is different shades of grey.

You answer on question "Was Poland liberated by Russians" was black.

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 11:35 AM
Black, in what way?
Sure there are always multiple views on history, multiple interpretations.
But what I posted simply happened - there was no Russian liberation of Poland. Ask the Polish people, except of communists, they will confirm this thesis.

maxim26
03-29-2004, 11:56 AM
What I ment is thet there were positive results of "Russian liberation", not only negative. The defeat of Natzi Germany is one of them. Personaly for me, most important result is reunification of Ukraine. Ones I red hystory book and auther said very interesting phrase: "WWII created the World in which we are living now". Just think about it. Who lost and who won in WWII. Germany lost. Look at the Germany now, its the country with most strong economy in the Eourope and one of the strongest in the Warld. Before WWI it had weak economy, suffering from the lack of colonies in order to compete with British and Americans. British were winners, but in reallity, they lost the rest of their remaining colonies.

Cossack_UA
03-29-2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Black, in what way?
Sure there are always multiple views on history, multiple interpretations.
But what I posted simply happened - there was no Russian liberation of Poland. Ask the Polish people, except of communists, they will confirm this thesis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are thousands of Russian soldier's graves are doing all over Polish land?

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 12:06 PM
Yes, the fight of the Russian people with its enormous losses against Germany, was the main reason why Germany lost. Nevertheless Russia suppressed afterwards millions of people in Poland, Germany, Czech, Slowakia etc.

And: What would Germany be now without the lost wars? Due to the fact of decolonization and globalisation the lack of colonies would have be no problem.
But with Old Prussia, its people and industrial capacity Germany would be even bigger.

Art-J
03-29-2004, 12:13 PM
Praetor, slow down a little bit, will you?
You say "Ask the Polish people, except of communists, they will confirm this thesis."
I am a Pole, I hate communists, my granpa lives in eastern Poland, and he had some nasty problems with so-called "liberators" but I don't confirm YOUR thesis in 100%. History is just not so simple. Don't expect anyone to agree with Your, clearly "black-white" style of interpreting it.
And to maxim26 - good point.

Regards

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

tonywizzz
03-29-2004, 12:16 PM
Guys bit heavy for a flight sim forum, I am of Polish extraction, my father served in the Polish, French and British Air Force, I have been to Poland many times suffice it to say Poland was treated very badly particularly by the Russians & Germans.

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/RAF%20307%20Squadron%20Wijaszko/

carguy_
03-29-2004, 12:18 PM
Ppl please stop b!tching.

Bring some more stories!

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
03-29-2004, 12:22 PM
Well guys, please, let's keep the historical debate out of this. It is relevant, but it also clogs up the thread. However, I am going to see Anna again tonight. I can ask about some more stories. I know you guys like em!

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 12:27 PM
Art-J:

I admit having exagerated a little bit, and I tried already to give a more sided view on history, please read my posts completly and not just one sentence, okay?
I can still not understand what is wrong, if I say, Poland was not liberated. Sure the Germans were forced to redraw and their terror ended, but now the Russian terror startet - or am I completely wrong?

Good, stopping that debate. I am German I may not understand the Polish minds.

SodBuster43
03-29-2004, 12:40 PM
Well PBNA-Boosher,

Sounds to me like you have the makings of a good book in your hands. Everything is already organized very nicely into chapters. Each chapter even has a title and theme!

My suggestion to you is to elaborate a bit more on each chapter, interview Anna for more detail etc. Pictures of Anna throughout her life would be good also. Anyway, you know how a book is organized. I believe this would make an interesting biography http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My boss at my first place of employment was Polish as well. He also was a child in Poland during WWII. He holds a degree in engineering from the University Of Warsaw or so I'm told. I worked as a mechanical designer for building construction and he was the department supervisor. He spoke with a heavy accent I assume was Polish. I believe his stories are mostly true with possibly some embelishments here and there. We all tend to do this occasionally and it tends to make the stories more interesting.

Regards,
SodBuster43

[This message was edited by SodBuster43 on Mon March 29 2004 at 11:49 AM.]

Art-J
03-29-2004, 01:01 PM
All right, maybe my reply was a bit hard as well. Let's concentrate on main topic. Discussion about "How three important guys splitted Europe on Yalta conference" can go forever and ever and ever... This is not what the thread was about. Let's just wait for more interesting stories.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2004, 01:04 PM
Ok, rational point, good idea.
So do you have more stories, boosher?

AirBot
03-29-2004, 02:02 PM
These are some fascinating stories Boosher. It looks like you may have a best-seller on your hands.

Please, get Anna to tell you everything she can and write it down. It's so important to preserve the experiences of this dying generation.

PBNA-Boosher
03-29-2004, 09:03 PM
You bet it's important! Which is why it is storytime again! This one, coincidentally, has to do with the Polish Air Force.

Story #8: A Flyover and a Kill

In 1939, when the Germans started bombing Warsaw, young Poles signed up for the Polish Air Force, hoping to get into this crack armed force with little manpower but big heart. In their obsolete P.11c's the Poles tried nobly to defend their skies, but ultimately they succumbed to the large numbers of aircraft the Germans put over the cities of Poland in 1939.

Well, Anna's mother took them away from Warsaw in 1939 so the family wouldn't be injured by the bombing. It was a smart move. Anna's block was hit by a bomb accidentally, and though the full charge did not detonate, it destroyed some of the block that Anna had lived on.
Anyway, around two weeks after the initial bombing campaign had started, Anna was playing outside with her brothers, when she saw two planes in the air turning and climbing and diving on each other recklessly in heated combat. THey were flying low, and at some moments literally came down on the deck. Anna swore to me she once saw the fixed gear of the P-11 touch the ground as the pilot pulled it out of a dive! She could not remember what the other fighter looked like, though judging by her description it was probably an early version Bf-109, most likely a 109B/C. They were exchanging fire many times, and once or twice bullets whizzed by Anna and the several spectators from the suburbs as the two planes dogfought for five minutes, suspended in the air, each one trying to get on another's tail. The Polish pilot successfully was able to turn inside and thus round on the tail of the enemy, but the other plane just used its superior speed advantage to whizz away, out of the range of the P-11's guns. Finally, the P-11 pilot brought his guns to bear head on with his target. Anna said she watched the bullets strike the aircraft with tremendous force. "Even though our Polish plane had only light machine guns," she said, "I could tell that the German plane was badly hit, and the pilot possibly injured, by the way that the engine started to whine loudly above us and a stream of black smoke came out of the engine. The German pilot swung his plane around and headed for home. The Polish pilot, knowing he could not catch up, flew in the opposite direction, back towards base. The very next day all of the Polish pilots appeared in the Warsaw suburbs. They had nowhere else to go. During the night, Anna had heard formations of planes going overhead. As it turned out, these were German bombers. By the time morning had come, not a single Polish plane on that airbase was in operational condition. Kinda sounds like the Germans were on a coverup mission to make sure that their invincible reputation wasn't fooled with.

That's all Anna told me this time. I'll be meeting again with her this Saturday, we're going out to dinner and then to a movie.

Wallstein
03-29-2004, 10:59 PM
Thank you. This is important. Expecially the youngest amongst us need to hear as much as possible about the truth. It must be clear to everyone, that we in this community are playing and that is OK. But the reality behind all of this gaming is worse than a nightmare. Please, keep your stories coming!

Have a good day

Rajvosa
03-29-2004, 11:21 PM
Fantastic stories, my friend! Too bad they are truth and not just fiction. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Anyway - damned nazis! And not quite so damned, but almost, communists.

Regards,

Jasko

http://2ridetheworld.com/sponsor%20images/BMW%20Roundel%2018082002.jpg

"I've already got a female to worry about. Her name is the Enterprise." - James T. Kirk

03-30-2004, 01:09 AM
Interesting Stories Booshner,
15 years ago I used to work with a very old Dutch immigrant to Australia approaching his retirement.
At 17 years of age he was an acrobat in a Dutch Circus, in Nazi occupied Holland.

In regards to the Me 109 in combat with the P11c, it was most likely a JG77 Me 109.
Gruppe I/JG77 was attached to Luftflotte 4 attacking Southern Poland.
The Rest of the Me 109 Units where at the French border, or on the North Coast of Germany to prevent intervention by the RAF.
The Me 110 was the main fighter used in Poland.

In regards to the polish air base being taken out, I do not think it had anything to do with promoting any sort of school of thought about German Invincibility.

Ever heard of the Term Blitzkreig!
It was a new type of War fare, It sounds like the 109 made it home and reported the enemy airbase location.
Under Blitzkreig tactics it would become the priority target, in the area, after all you dont need the motorised infantry slowed down having to take cover from enemy aircraft strafing.

S!

[This message was edited by JG77_GK on Tue March 30 2004 at 12:20 AM.]

Maciej_k
03-30-2004, 01:46 AM
It is good that somebody tells such stories.Give my regards to Anna - I'm Polish and my grandparents also had a very hard time during the war- in Poznan and Cracow and in Swietokrzyskie Mountains.

Have a nice day, ppl! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tonywizzz
03-30-2004, 04:16 AM
The first Day

Early on the morning of 1st September 1939, the Luftwaffe was going in action at many points along the front. At one of these, the bombers unleashed their cargo on Krakow and the nearby Rakowice air base. A few miles west at the auxilary field in Balice, pilots of 121 Fighter Squadron, attached to Army Krakow, heard the roar of aircraft. The squadron commander, Captain Mieczyslaw Medwecki, and lieutant Gnys took off, but some passing JU-87's fired at the Poish pair, shooting down Captain Medwecki. lieutant Gnys managed to evade the attackers and climbed to 5000ft, where he spotted a pair of Dornier Do-17E bombers. Putting his fighter into a steep dive, he attacked the bomber on the right side of the formation, firing into the fuselage and the port engine. He flew under the aircraft, climbed, and attacked the second bomber, again scoring hits. When the two Dorniers, which were rapidly losing height, went behind a hill, Gnys turned away, but caught a glimpse of smoke below. Both Dorniers crashed, littering the village of Zuranda with their smoldering debris, the first victories over the Luftwaffe in the Second World War.

The action over Poland quickly escalated. The Pursuit Brigade defending Warsaw fough several battles with German Bombers & Fighters in the morning and more in the afternoon. It shot down fourteen German aircraft, but lost twelve of its own fighters with many more damaged. Elsewhere, the fighters attached to the armies shot down an additional eleven aircraft. The score of 25 shot down was the highest that Lotnictwo Wojskowe would attain any one days action during the September campaign.

One of the Dorniers shot down by lieutant Gnys carried the ID 3Z+FR.

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/307logo.gif

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/RAF%20307%20Squadron%20Wijaszko/

http://www.geocities.com/skrzydla/

kiiroca
03-30-2004, 06:30 AM
Include the British goverment late in the war and the Labour
Government after Churhill.

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/kiiroca/Donald_color.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
03-30-2004, 12:55 PM
Sorry guys, just a bump to keep the thread from getting stale, no story this time.