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VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Over the past few weeks I have been seeing people complaining and making suggestions about lag, stutters, server settings, and maps/missions on the War Clouds servers. So I thought I would post some information about the server to help others better understand how the server is setup and why. First and foremost people need to understand that the server at the moment is running off a full install. Meaning the game is running in a window just as you would run iton your own computer at home. There is no dedicated server version for AEP right now, so there will be more lag. This uses a lot of resources it does not really need, and with no dedicated server package, this is what we have to deal with for now. I am going to try to address as many aspects of the server in this topic and explain why they are as they are. The information in this thread should help clients and server admins alike I hope.

Icon system:

The current icon system is setup as follows. At 2km you will get a plane id. The icon will remain grey and never show you team color. It is up to you to determine if the plane is a friend or foe. Since all the maps on the server are always Axis vs Allied, this should not be a problem. At 500meters you will get a pilot id. This is to help keeping track of your wingmen. Icons are the same for friendlies and enemies.

Now for the explainations. From what i have read and seen discussed on the internet and in forums, most people agree that pilots were able to ID a plane at ~2km. This is not possible in my opinion in IL2. There just is not enough graphical details at that distance to tell what kind of plane you are lookin at. This is why I set Plane ID icons to come on at this distance. Now you have all the information you need at 2k to decide if you should persue the plane or not. Also in my findings, it was noted that you could not really make out any distiguishing marks till about 500 meters or so. These being Country markings, pilot id numbers, and so forth. This is why i choose 500 meters for a pilot id to show. I honestly believe that these settings help make up for the lack of graphical details we have due to monitor limitations. To me these setting mimic as closely as possible real life situations.

Plane Sets:

Currenty each side is limited to 20 planes. Choosing the 20 planes per side was not an easy task. There are some 100+ flyables in IL2 now. Choosing just 40 to be represented on the server was pretty hard to do. I have had people make some suggesions on planes that are not represented at the moment and i am considering swapping some of them out for the suggested planes. I tried my best to pick the planes that most people like to fly. But as there are 100s of players on the servers everyday, its kind of hard to get it right for everyone.

Ok, so if its so hard to choose just 40 planes, why not just put them all in and let it ride? Well there are a couple of reasons for this. First and foremost is to reduce spawn lag and stutters. A plane only needs to be loaded into the client and servers memory once. It don't matter how many are present on the server, the model and textures are only loaded one time. One bf 109 on a map will use the same memory as 100. So by loading stationary planes on each map, when someone spawns in a plane, you system does not need to stop and load the new model and textures for that plane because its already loaded for the stationary plane taht is sitting on the ground.

So why not just preload all 100+ planes and let them all be represented? Each plane (as tested by Hunter ~S) uses anywhere from 2.5 to 3 megs of ram. So to load 100 statics on the ground you are looking at using 300 megs of ram. We havent even loaded landscape textures, building textures, and other stationary objects yet. This would drive the map size in memory up rather quickly. With 100 planes preloaded, the mission load times are also very, very long.

So why not just let all planes be flyable and just preload the popular planes as stationaries? Well let's say we preloaded the map with 40 planes as I am doing now but leave every plane in the plane sets. Someone joins the server and decides to fly a plane that is not preloaded. Now you have loaded the 40 statics and the plane he has choosen. Now lets say that we have 32 players on the server. Fifteen of them are flying planes that are preloaded and 18 of flying somethign totally different. Now client and server have to have a total of 58 planes loaded into memory. As you can see this can only get worse.

Maps/Missions:

This is a tough one here. There are SO many ways to build missions for a server. Some people don't like flying at night, some dont like clouds, some don't like fog, and so on. As you can see, its really hard to make a mission that 100% of the players will enjoy. I view it like this, It's a challenge and i accept it with what ever terms are bought to the mission. If it means i have to fly around in the dark trying to find my target, then thats what I do. I have mentioned many times that anyone is more then welcome to help make maps and missions for the server. I have put together a map buildign package that really simplifies the process for everyone. If anyone is interested, please, feel free to contact me and we can discuss what i expect in maps and missions for the servers. I do have some pretty strict requirements, but they are in place to make sure that gameplay is not crushed by a map.


------------------------

Now i would like to hit on a few client side issues that i think are effecting how much lag and stutters people aer seeing. I personally see very little lag and stuttering on the server when i play. As do some others that i fly with daily. As Zen so nicely put it, lag is "20% server, 20% connection route, 20% random and 40% client side". I have to totally agree with this. One thing that many people over look is, if the server is creating the lag, then Everyone would be getting the lag not just 5/6 or even 10. Everyone would be seeing the same issues. This is a internet game, and we all know that the interet is not the most stable envoirnment.

Just because you have a good ping to a server does not mean you have a good connection to the server. Ping packets are small and therefore require minimal resources to transmit and receive. The packet sizes for online games are quite large at times. There is a lot of information that needs to be passed from server and client. Try this sometime, ping a server normally from command prompt and take note of your pings. Now ping it with a larger packet. ping xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx -t -l 1024 . This will ping the server with pretty sizable packet. Notice the difference in your pings. If you route to the server is not that good, when you ping with the larger packet size, you ping may double and even triple. Do a trace route to the same server and see if there is one hop that your ping starts to increase at. Most of the time this is your culprit.

Video cards play a big role in your lags and stutters. If you card is not capable of handling all the rendering required for 32 players online, then you are going to see lags and stutters as textures are swapped in and out of memory. In my opinion, to play on a server with 20 or more players that has ground objects and AAA, you should have a minimun of a Geforce4/radeon 9600 with 128 megs of ram on board.

System memory is a huge factor at creating lag. If you do not have enough RAM in your system, then IL2 will be using your virtual memory to hold data and textures. Since virtual memory is just space allocated on your hard drive, this creates a read and write speed problem. Your system cannot read from a hard drive anywhere near the speed it can read from System RAM. IL2 is a memory hungry game to start with and always has been. Now in the case of AEP running as a regular install on the War Clouds server, you start adding in preloaded planes and other static objects, the amount of ram needed starts to grow. From my random checks, when I play on the server, AEP is using anywhere between 600-800 megs of ram during game play. Thats just for the game. This does not include what your system needs for OS managment and any other apps you may have running. In my opinion, I really believe that 1 gig of RAM is a minimum for playing on Large Online servers.

Connection speed is another thing that plays in this. If you are gaming on a 56k connection, when a server gets more the 20+ people on it you are going to lag. There is just no way that the server can send you all the information needed to keep your client up to speed on that connection. Some may say otherwise, but I have seen it too many times. A guy on a 56k connection will be playing on the server for awhile then all the sudden he starts to lag really bad. The only major change is that there are more players on the server. In my opinion, if you are on a 56k connection you really should limit yourself to playing on server with less the 20 players. This is not an anti-56K comment, it's just an observation I've had from when I have been on dialup myself and having watched people on the server as well.

---------------------------------------

A lot of the comments I have gotten are comparing how such and such server plays as compared to War clouds. I get a lot of, "well i can play fine on GreaterGreen with no lag and a lot of players." We are talking to totally different servers here. GreaterGreen is a fine server. I have enjoyed many hours for flight time on there. Sammie runs a damn good server. But it's not comparable to War Clouds for gameplay. The missions are usually limited to 5/6 differnt planes. This right there makes a HUGE difference. Infact that is probably the one thing that really separates the two servers. As i stated before, the number of planes in the air and loaded on the ground makes a Huge impact on how the game play is.

-----------------------------------------

I know I have stated some very hefty system requirements. Video cards and RAM are not cheap. But gaming today take a lot of horse power and when you add in Online play, it just adds to the requirements needed for a good experience. IL2 and many other games today utilize 100% of a systems CPU when its running. So you can just imagine what impact upgrading a PC has on gameplay. Its a lot like drag racing. You don't buy a Ford Escort to race against a Top Fuel Dragster. If you want to have the option to play on most every server regardless of size, it's better to have a higher end system. From my experiences and observations, it takes a pretty decent system and stable connection to have good gameplay online in large servers like AEP. System requirements for large player servers like this have a high demand on servers and client systems.

-----------------------------------------

I hope I have shed some light on some of the difficulties that arise when running servers. It is impossible to get it right 100% of the time for everyone and even a great client system can lag on one server and not another. When the Dedicated Server arrives, most of this issue should be resolved. Just as we had few complainst back in 1.22 Dedicated Servers, it should return to normal with AEP Dedicated server. It lagged for some people then and it will always lag. This is just something that is inherent in online play. Server admins try their best to make a server run smooth for everyone, but we have to be realistic. There are just to many variables that are out of our control. I am sure I speak for most server admins when I say that good and constructive comments are always welcome as they help us locate and get rid of possible issues with the server. But at the same time, it does no one any good to go onto a server and complain all night long about lag and server settings. All I ask is that you consider the variables of what could be causing your particular problem and then make some constructive comments in any other manner then online chat. Most server admins have their email address readily availbe for anyone to send comments to. We are just like anyone else, we have limited time to play and enjoy these fine games and we do not want to be flooded with complaints all night long while we are playing. I welcome anyones comments and suggestions and take them all into consideration as long as they are presented to me in a constructive and non-confrontational manner. Negative complaining does just as it say, creates nothing but negative results.

I hope I did not bore you all to tears reading this. I just wanted to try and convey as much info as I could to help enlighten as many as possible. As I stated before, I welcome any constructive comments. The server would not be where it is now if it was not for others bringing to light some problems we were having. I hope to see you all on the server. Let's try and have some fun and enjoy what Oleg and Crew gave us.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Over the past few weeks I have been seeing people complaining and making suggestions about lag, stutters, server settings, and maps/missions on the War Clouds servers. So I thought I would post some information about the server to help others better understand how the server is setup and why. First and foremost people need to understand that the server at the moment is running off a full install. Meaning the game is running in a window just as you would run iton your own computer at home. There is no dedicated server version for AEP right now, so there will be more lag. This uses a lot of resources it does not really need, and with no dedicated server package, this is what we have to deal with for now. I am going to try to address as many aspects of the server in this topic and explain why they are as they are. The information in this thread should help clients and server admins alike I hope.

Icon system:

The current icon system is setup as follows. At 2km you will get a plane id. The icon will remain grey and never show you team color. It is up to you to determine if the plane is a friend or foe. Since all the maps on the server are always Axis vs Allied, this should not be a problem. At 500meters you will get a pilot id. This is to help keeping track of your wingmen. Icons are the same for friendlies and enemies.

Now for the explainations. From what i have read and seen discussed on the internet and in forums, most people agree that pilots were able to ID a plane at ~2km. This is not possible in my opinion in IL2. There just is not enough graphical details at that distance to tell what kind of plane you are lookin at. This is why I set Plane ID icons to come on at this distance. Now you have all the information you need at 2k to decide if you should persue the plane or not. Also in my findings, it was noted that you could not really make out any distiguishing marks till about 500 meters or so. These being Country markings, pilot id numbers, and so forth. This is why i choose 500 meters for a pilot id to show. I honestly believe that these settings help make up for the lack of graphical details we have due to monitor limitations. To me these setting mimic as closely as possible real life situations.

Plane Sets:

Currenty each side is limited to 20 planes. Choosing the 20 planes per side was not an easy task. There are some 100+ flyables in IL2 now. Choosing just 40 to be represented on the server was pretty hard to do. I have had people make some suggesions on planes that are not represented at the moment and i am considering swapping some of them out for the suggested planes. I tried my best to pick the planes that most people like to fly. But as there are 100s of players on the servers everyday, its kind of hard to get it right for everyone.

Ok, so if its so hard to choose just 40 planes, why not just put them all in and let it ride? Well there are a couple of reasons for this. First and foremost is to reduce spawn lag and stutters. A plane only needs to be loaded into the client and servers memory once. It don't matter how many are present on the server, the model and textures are only loaded one time. One bf 109 on a map will use the same memory as 100. So by loading stationary planes on each map, when someone spawns in a plane, you system does not need to stop and load the new model and textures for that plane because its already loaded for the stationary plane taht is sitting on the ground.

So why not just preload all 100+ planes and let them all be represented? Each plane (as tested by Hunter ~S) uses anywhere from 2.5 to 3 megs of ram. So to load 100 statics on the ground you are looking at using 300 megs of ram. We havent even loaded landscape textures, building textures, and other stationary objects yet. This would drive the map size in memory up rather quickly. With 100 planes preloaded, the mission load times are also very, very long.

So why not just let all planes be flyable and just preload the popular planes as stationaries? Well let's say we preloaded the map with 40 planes as I am doing now but leave every plane in the plane sets. Someone joins the server and decides to fly a plane that is not preloaded. Now you have loaded the 40 statics and the plane he has choosen. Now lets say that we have 32 players on the server. Fifteen of them are flying planes that are preloaded and 18 of flying somethign totally different. Now client and server have to have a total of 58 planes loaded into memory. As you can see this can only get worse.

Maps/Missions:

This is a tough one here. There are SO many ways to build missions for a server. Some people don't like flying at night, some dont like clouds, some don't like fog, and so on. As you can see, its really hard to make a mission that 100% of the players will enjoy. I view it like this, It's a challenge and i accept it with what ever terms are bought to the mission. If it means i have to fly around in the dark trying to find my target, then thats what I do. I have mentioned many times that anyone is more then welcome to help make maps and missions for the server. I have put together a map buildign package that really simplifies the process for everyone. If anyone is interested, please, feel free to contact me and we can discuss what i expect in maps and missions for the servers. I do have some pretty strict requirements, but they are in place to make sure that gameplay is not crushed by a map.


------------------------

Now i would like to hit on a few client side issues that i think are effecting how much lag and stutters people aer seeing. I personally see very little lag and stuttering on the server when i play. As do some others that i fly with daily. As Zen so nicely put it, lag is "20% server, 20% connection route, 20% random and 40% client side". I have to totally agree with this. One thing that many people over look is, if the server is creating the lag, then Everyone would be getting the lag not just 5/6 or even 10. Everyone would be seeing the same issues. This is a internet game, and we all know that the interet is not the most stable envoirnment.

Just because you have a good ping to a server does not mean you have a good connection to the server. Ping packets are small and therefore require minimal resources to transmit and receive. The packet sizes for online games are quite large at times. There is a lot of information that needs to be passed from server and client. Try this sometime, ping a server normally from command prompt and take note of your pings. Now ping it with a larger packet. ping xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx -t -l 1024 . This will ping the server with pretty sizable packet. Notice the difference in your pings. If you route to the server is not that good, when you ping with the larger packet size, you ping may double and even triple. Do a trace route to the same server and see if there is one hop that your ping starts to increase at. Most of the time this is your culprit.

Video cards play a big role in your lags and stutters. If you card is not capable of handling all the rendering required for 32 players online, then you are going to see lags and stutters as textures are swapped in and out of memory. In my opinion, to play on a server with 20 or more players that has ground objects and AAA, you should have a minimun of a Geforce4/radeon 9600 with 128 megs of ram on board.

System memory is a huge factor at creating lag. If you do not have enough RAM in your system, then IL2 will be using your virtual memory to hold data and textures. Since virtual memory is just space allocated on your hard drive, this creates a read and write speed problem. Your system cannot read from a hard drive anywhere near the speed it can read from System RAM. IL2 is a memory hungry game to start with and always has been. Now in the case of AEP running as a regular install on the War Clouds server, you start adding in preloaded planes and other static objects, the amount of ram needed starts to grow. From my random checks, when I play on the server, AEP is using anywhere between 600-800 megs of ram during game play. Thats just for the game. This does not include what your system needs for OS managment and any other apps you may have running. In my opinion, I really believe that 1 gig of RAM is a minimum for playing on Large Online servers.

Connection speed is another thing that plays in this. If you are gaming on a 56k connection, when a server gets more the 20+ people on it you are going to lag. There is just no way that the server can send you all the information needed to keep your client up to speed on that connection. Some may say otherwise, but I have seen it too many times. A guy on a 56k connection will be playing on the server for awhile then all the sudden he starts to lag really bad. The only major change is that there are more players on the server. In my opinion, if you are on a 56k connection you really should limit yourself to playing on server with less the 20 players. This is not an anti-56K comment, it's just an observation I've had from when I have been on dialup myself and having watched people on the server as well.

---------------------------------------

A lot of the comments I have gotten are comparing how such and such server plays as compared to War clouds. I get a lot of, "well i can play fine on GreaterGreen with no lag and a lot of players." We are talking to totally different servers here. GreaterGreen is a fine server. I have enjoyed many hours for flight time on there. Sammie runs a damn good server. But it's not comparable to War Clouds for gameplay. The missions are usually limited to 5/6 differnt planes. This right there makes a HUGE difference. Infact that is probably the one thing that really separates the two servers. As i stated before, the number of planes in the air and loaded on the ground makes a Huge impact on how the game play is.

-----------------------------------------

I know I have stated some very hefty system requirements. Video cards and RAM are not cheap. But gaming today take a lot of horse power and when you add in Online play, it just adds to the requirements needed for a good experience. IL2 and many other games today utilize 100% of a systems CPU when its running. So you can just imagine what impact upgrading a PC has on gameplay. Its a lot like drag racing. You don't buy a Ford Escort to race against a Top Fuel Dragster. If you want to have the option to play on most every server regardless of size, it's better to have a higher end system. From my experiences and observations, it takes a pretty decent system and stable connection to have good gameplay online in large servers like AEP. System requirements for large player servers like this have a high demand on servers and client systems.

-----------------------------------------

I hope I have shed some light on some of the difficulties that arise when running servers. It is impossible to get it right 100% of the time for everyone and even a great client system can lag on one server and not another. When the Dedicated Server arrives, most of this issue should be resolved. Just as we had few complainst back in 1.22 Dedicated Servers, it should return to normal with AEP Dedicated server. It lagged for some people then and it will always lag. This is just something that is inherent in online play. Server admins try their best to make a server run smooth for everyone, but we have to be realistic. There are just to many variables that are out of our control. I am sure I speak for most server admins when I say that good and constructive comments are always welcome as they help us locate and get rid of possible issues with the server. But at the same time, it does no one any good to go onto a server and complain all night long about lag and server settings. All I ask is that you consider the variables of what could be causing your particular problem and then make some constructive comments in any other manner then online chat. Most server admins have their email address readily availbe for anyone to send comments to. We are just like anyone else, we have limited time to play and enjoy these fine games and we do not want to be flooded with complaints all night long while we are playing. I welcome anyones comments and suggestions and take them all into consideration as long as they are presented to me in a constructive and non-confrontational manner. Negative complaining does just as it say, creates nothing but negative results.

I hope I did not bore you all to tears reading this. I just wanted to try and convey as much info as I could to help enlighten as many as possible. As I stated before, I welcome any constructive comments. The server would not be where it is now if it was not for others bringing to light some problems we were having. I hope to see you all on the server. Let's try and have some fun and enjoy what Oleg and Crew gave us.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

AKA_PLT_VICTOR
03-23-2004, 04:11 PM
Wow, long detailed post. Now I know why I had such a problem running my own server.

But, just one suggestion? Turn off external views? lol I love the server still, just sucks when you line up to kill and just to have them dive away before you can pull the trigger because they use external views to watch their six.

Taylortony
03-23-2004, 04:12 PM
Sparxs you have nothing but admiration from me..................... you take the time and also the finacial burden to bring this to us for free, i have been on your site of late and seen the pitiful amount of donations you have had towards it and have had the old pangs of guilt, you have given me so much pleasure on ubi com, often when there are a serious lack of games and as such i am going to donate a bit to help you along.
Your site brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people at your expense and i feel i can give a bit to help, it might not be a lot, but it will help................... Anyone else think they can help out? I think Sharxs would apprecitate it no matter how small an amount..

err can you link me to the site

[Gypsy]
03-23-2004, 04:12 PM
S~.. great server, maps and game-play... I do get a lag now and then when the server is full, but 98% of the time it is as smooth as glass for me...

"Gypsy"

Huxley_S
03-23-2004, 04:16 PM
I think the hardest part in running a dedicated server like yours it listening to the endless unfounded criticism from whining morons.

If you want to get some perspective, go and read a few posts in ORR.

The whining about nothing that goes on in the IL2 community is quite hard to understand sometimes.

For what it's worth I've always enjoyed playing on your servers and for every vocal whiner there are plenty of people enjoying your work but not making a fuss.

Keep it up!

FB Music and Campaigns @
http://www.onemorewild.org/huxley

T_O_A_D
03-23-2004, 04:17 PM
Very good read and well put! I agree with my servers setup almost parallel to yours. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 04:44 PM
S~ and thank you for all the good comments guys. It is nice to see those every once in awhile. My main goal in this post is just to inform people. I really dont think most of them understand what all is involved in running servers. I don't want to offend, just merely inform. I just hope that none of my comments are offensive to anyone.

AKA_PLT_VICTOR
I did not address external views. Wasn't sure if i wanted to open that can of worms. I don't really want this to turn in to another server settings debate. But i have found in the past that if you turn off external views, players just won't come. They like those more then any other setting in the game. You can take away just about any other setting and most will play as it is. But removing externals is a whole nother monster http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I personally like flying online without them for just about the same reason as everyone else that wishes to have them off. But you gotta go with the masses sometimes and deal with it. There are ways to use externals against someone. Just takes a little more time an patience, but it can be done http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Sure they can check six for you, but remember they are only lookin behind them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

SodBuster43
03-23-2004, 05:01 PM
S~ SPaRX

I will make this pitch to you again and hope some others will go along with this.

I am in the process of making missions that could potentially be run on your server. However, in light of your post, I feel that keeping the planeset as small as possible is the key to success. This lends itself perfectly to historical missions where Allied and Axis forces may only have one or two aircraft to chose from.

Currently, I have a rather fun Pacific scenario with only P-40's, P-38's, P-47's, P-39's and A6M Zero's on the map, total of 6 aircraft typeshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This is based on two historical missions actually flown in the Solomons during 1943. There are a few cargo ships and some artillery also on the map but the number of different types of objects has been kept to a minimum.

Also you need to seriously consider starting a second or even third server at hyperlobby due to the fact that it is sometimes impossible now to even get on your current server. Very popular indeed.

Maybe starting an historical missions only server would work well at this point.

Regards,
SB

adlabs6
03-23-2004, 05:07 PM
Looks like some good common sense choices, Sparx. I'll have to drop by and enjoy a map or two.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
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Taylortony
03-23-2004, 05:10 PM
cool cannon fodder http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_PLT_VICTOR
03-23-2004, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
AKA_PLT_VICTOR
I did not address external views. Wasn't sure if i wanted to open that can of worms. I don't really want this to turn in to another server settings debate. But i have found in the past that if you turn off external views, players just won't come. They like those more then any other setting in the game. You can take away just about any other setting and most will play as it is. But removing externals is a whole nother monster http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I personally like flying online without them for just about the same reason as everyone else that wishes to have them off. But you gotta go with the masses sometimes and deal with it. There are ways to use externals against someone. Just takes a little more time an patience, but it can be done http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Sure they can check six for you, but remember they are only lookin behind them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, no biggie Sparx. I know what you mean though. I ran my own for awhile and that's all I heard was moaning about this and that - I like the jets alot and had to pull those. Not easy to please every one including your self sometimes. I figured away around anyhow. Just fly above them, roll and dive on top of them. lol

Teufel_Eldritch
03-23-2004, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Icon system:

The current icon system is setup as follows. At 2km you will get a plane id. The icon will remain grey and never show you team color. It is up to you to determine if the plane is a friend or foe. Since all the maps on the server are always Axis vs Allied, this should not be a problem. At 500meters you will get a pilot id. This is to help keeping track of your wingmen. Icons are the same for friendlies and enemies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Could you plz point me in the direction of where I can find out how to set this up on my own machine?

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

_VR_ScorpionWorm
03-23-2004, 05:29 PM
I really hope this sets alot of whiners straight. I do happen to have a 56K and I know what you are talking about with ping, I usually get a good ping on your server and other times I don't. I watch my ping very carefully on all servers not only for my benefit but for others as well. The way you have the autokick for high pings is excellent, I have been booted because of a high ping and it doesn't bother me, its there for a reason. It gives me a chance to see whats going on on my end and try to fix it and also gives other people a chance to get in there because it is a very popular server that I see runs all day and night.(could be wrong) Nothing would make me happier than to donate for the server, the only problem is I don't use plastics(CreditCard,Debit) and I don't use checks, I have personal problems with both, so if there is a way to help with a MO I will be more than happy to help. And thanks for the great server it is always fun there and a great place to learn.

"We went like this, He went like that, I said to Hollywood 'Where'd he go?', Hollywood said, 'Where'd WHO go'-TOPGUN

TacticalSkirmsh
03-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Thanks thread starter for taking the time to share your knowledge with regards to servers.

I have read that custom skins can also increase lag, because they have to be uploaded from the client to the host, then downloaded to the other clients. Makes sense but can you comment on your hosting experience if this is true and how much of a problem with lag/system performance this is?

Our squad is lucky to have a guy who runs a dedicated server (of course not for AEP yet) with a stable and great performance. I'll occassionally run an informal server off my install.

Yesterday, had a bunch of guys (16 max I think) with no plane limit. While everyone had a blast, there was a lot of lag, especially at certain times. You're post has helped me understand why. I suppose a much smaller group, say 8 maximum might have helped, especially since guys don't change their plane types too much.

Just curious mate, could you explain how the dedicated server exactly works (in general please don't burden yourself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)?

Wait a minute &lt;he looks nerviously around&gt; all this helpful and polite discussion, am I really at UBI's Website? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Best regards,
TactS!

"Speed is life." (Israeli Tactics Manual)

:FI:TacticalS!

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 05:37 PM
Bare with me guys, i will try and answer all the question you all might have and comment on any suggestions as well. Tonight is a busy night for me so i will try and check in here as much as i can tonight.

Sodbuster

I personlly love historical base mission with planes set for the specific missions. But there are already some damn fine servers that are filling this niche. Historical Based mission lovers do not number as much as those who just want to jump online and fly their favorite plane. I am no knocking either player. I sometimes myself just want to get online and fly my favorite plane as well and not have to wait for 5 missions to cycle through till its in the mission. This is why i have chosen the current plane set that is being used. I find that it appeals to more people running plane sets like this.
Due to the way Jiri has Hyperlobby coded, i cannot launch multiple clients. Therefore it is not possible to run multiple servers there like i have done at UBI.com. When the dedicated server does finaly get released, there will be more server running for sure. The one on Hyperlobby will more then likely stay as it is. There will be 2/3 servers on UBI.com as well. One of these servers will have historical based missions. I think its a fun time going head to head with some good period based missions. But as it is right now, running multiple server cannot happen without the dedicated server pack. I hope that many will find the historical mission server fun and it gets some good play time.

Teufel_Eldritch

I need a little more info on how you are running a server to answer this properly. The command for setting icons is as follows

mp_dotrange FRIENDLY DOT 15 COLOR .01 ID .5 TYPE 2 NAME .01 RANGE .01

mp_dotrange FOE DOT 15 COLOR .01 ID .5 TYPE 2 NAME .01 RANGE .01

How you enter these commands depends on how you are runnign your server.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 06:00 PM
TacticalSkirmsh

Skin downloads is just a big old NO! NO! for online servers in my opinion. I have tried a few times enabling skins for a night here and there and seeing how it effected game play. There no two ways about it, skin downloads on just drags a server down. Just to give you an example of why this is so. I will use the extreme here. Let's say there are 32 players online and each of them are running custom skins that are 1024x1024. These skins come out to be around 1 meg each. First thing that happens is every player needs to upload their skin to the server. Then the server sends every play 31 skins at 1 meg each. Most server restict the amount of Bandwidth allocated to each client. So lets say we have it set to 56k of bw per client. Now the server needs to send all the data needed for game play plus 31 megs of skins to each client and only use 56k worth of bandwidth. Its been awhile but if memory serves me right downloading 32 megs on a 56k connection takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 hour or more. But, the server isnt sending you just he skins in the 56k of bandwidth. You are also getting game data. So this might take upwards of 2 or 3 hours to get 32 skins shuffled around to everyone. Now you are also limiting the amount of bandwidth the server has to send gameplay data to the client. Now if within that 2 or 3 hours lets day 10 people leave and 10 more join and they are using custom skins. I think you can see where i am going here. Its a shame really, i really enjoy having custom skins myself as well. I have a few ideas on how to get around this, but i am just not sure how to implent it yet. I am still researching and asking others for ideas on how to do this. My idea is this. Even with skin download off, as long as everyone has the same skin in their /skins folders, you will see the custom skin. It must be the same and unaltered from teh orginal source though. I am pretty sure that skin verification is done through a CRC check. So if you open the skin and make even the smallest change, you change the CRC verificaion. What i have thought about doing is creating a "skin package" for the servers so to speak. Have people recommend some skins from il2skins.com or submit them. Then package them up for players to download and install on their clients. Then you would be able to use these skins online and they would be seen by everyone. This mean alot of work though. So i dont know if i will ever be able to do this or not. And the bandwidth requirements for doing this as pretty high as well. I am kinda rambling on now, if this is as clear as mud, please post any other questions and i will try to answer them.

ScorpionWorm1

You are not alone in this situation. Many have msged me saying they dont trust Paypal or whatever. If you do wish to donate to help keep the server going, please send me and email and i can forward you any information you might need to make a donation. I thank you very much for your wishing to support the server. If it wasn't for people helping out, the server would not exist.


One thing i would like to clarify to all about donations. They are in no way, shape or form required to play on the server. If you feel that the server is providing a good service to you, please do help keep it going. The server costs are very high and any help is greatly appreciated. I have no intention of profiting from this now or in the future. My only intentino was to provide a server that is stable and a good place to fly. But unfortunatly this does come with a high price. If i could afford it on my own, i would not think twice about doing so. I enjoy playing ths SIM that much. So to anyone that has donated (the list is getting hard to keep track of) I S! you and thank you for helping out. I really do hate this part of the server http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. I at times feel like a beggar on the street asking for food.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

johann_thor
03-23-2004, 06:24 PM
i have never experienced lag on this server.

but then......

P4 3.2 overclocked!
2 gig corsair ram on overclocked 800 FSB!
radeon 9800 XT 256 dynamic overclocking!
non-creative sound + actual drivers!
win2000pro cuz it works better!
water cooling!
disco dancefloor medium tower!


.............VANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Teufel_Eldritch
03-23-2004, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Teufel_Eldritch

I need a little more info on how you are running a server to answer this properly. The command for setting icons is as follows

mp_dotrange FRIENDLY DOT 15 COLOR .01 ID .5 TYPE 2 NAME .01 RANGE .01

mp_dotrange FOE DOT 15 COLOR .01 ID .5 TYPE 2 NAME .01 RANGE .01

How you enter these commands depends on how you are runnign your server.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the reply.

I am just running a peer to peer server for my friends on the weekends. Also is there a way to set the icons to these settings for offline play?

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

609IAP_Recon
03-23-2004, 06:35 PM
"But i have found in the past that if you turn off external views, players just won't come"

That is too bad. I never had a problem getting people to fly when I host.

I guess I value quality over quantity http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Salute!

JG50_Recon

http://jg50.com/images/JG50_SIGG.gif
----
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-23-2004, 08:17 PM
Recon,

This is the type of comment that i spoke about earlier. Everyone has their prefered settings. I did not start this thread to attack or critisize what people prefer when they fly. I ask everyone to please not turn this into a thread that will attack or discredit someone for the settings that they prefer to fly. This is an informative thread to help people understand the issues involved with hosting a server and what thing effect a players smooth game play.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

Teufel_Eldritch
03-23-2004, 08:32 PM
SPaRX,
Is there any automatic way I can have those commands automatically entered in the game? A autoexec file? Perhaps map/bind them to a key? Typing those commands in everytime I start a server/game is a chore.

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

TacticalSkirmsh
03-23-2004, 08:43 PM
Thanks for explanation regarding skins.

"Speed is life." (Israeli Tactics Manual)

:FI:TacticalS!

TheGozr
03-23-2004, 08:46 PM
Ok SPaRX you do a great job.. simply just fantasticly great.
It's one of the only servers i play in with "PROWAR's"
I can't wait for the release of the server files.

I need you to come and join the Fight USA vs FRANCE. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You , Zen, Aristo, and others that i can't remember the writing of their names http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=110100492

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Bamatt
03-23-2004, 11:46 PM
My main complaint with your server is.....ITS FULL MOST OF THE TIME!!!!

lol

I love the settings on that server, hard to find good servers with those exact settings.

My only problem is the Bastogne map. My little Radeon 7500 cant handle the tree's and AAA. I gotsta upgrade.

S!


[Chowder]BAMATT

Mave_FI
03-23-2004, 11:54 PM
That mappack is a great idea, we should try to figure out a way to create large community mappack that could be used on several servers without the need to turn on the skin-download.

Or... The creations of that mappack is easy, I could even build the installer for it, but who's there to collect the skins? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Btw. Is there a way to limit country-markings for each color? Hate to see German Spits and Russian Messerschmitts http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mave
Jagdgeschwader 55 - "Lufthunden"
www.lufthunden.com (http://www.lufthunden.com)

03-24-2004, 03:32 AM
We used to Run Historical servers in IL-2, and IL-2/FB, up until about 6 months ago.
Our Historical Battle of the Don DF server scenario with historic plane set was very popular.
We allowed outside views, because many people enjoy the inherant beuty of the Game.
We never allowed any kind of Icon at any time but we allowed pad lock view, although we dis allowed the no **** pit view.
You had to shoot from inside the **** pit, we also allowed speed bar.
The Historical plane set crowd always showed up on a regular basis.

We used to be a very popular server in our day, for about 18 months running, however these days there are too many trying to host with only the Host in the game.
This is in no way an attack on peoples prefered settings.
Im all for outside views to enjoy the beuty of the game but I think the no **** pit view puts a lot of regulars off being too Arcadish.
So we end up with a large group of arcadish servers with only the host in them, and no viewable slots left to host any of our historic DF server Scenarios.
Perhaps somebody should approach Jiri about doing somthing with the Hyper Lobby, if you host a game ( no matter what settings) if nobody joins the game within 15 minutes
BOOT from the Hyper lobby alltogether, or better still limiting the number of hosts that can Host in the Hyper lobby with certain settings,it would certainly help reduce the number of servers with only the Host in them because they have all allowed no **** pit view, used as an example.

So we do not bother any more, too busy mission building these days anyway.


S!

[This message was edited by JG77_GK on Wed March 24 2004 at 02:58 AM.]

Diablo310th
03-24-2004, 06:30 AM
SPaRX...great server. It has become my favorite server to fly in each night. I love the settings (except for the no cockpit view) but I understand why u allow it. Keep up the good work and I hope it only gets better. I get very little lag and only at times. ~S~

http://www.wellspringmarketing.biz/310th/Diablos20Sig.jpg

Capt_Pepper
03-24-2004, 12:07 PM
Okay Sparx, you started this, so here goes...

To begin with, I am not an expert with a computer, much less servers, and in fact, have only been able to fly on line for a bit less than a year. That said, I can tell you what I have observed on War Clouds, et.al., more or less through the eyes of a relative new comerhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

First, your input on running a server is nothing short of excellent. You touch on the many, many aspects involved about which I'm sure, many do not know.....I certainly learned a lot.

First question is, how does anyone, especially long time hosts, tolerate the difficulties of running a server? If this were strictly a for-profit business operation, there would be an obvious explanation, but it's not.

In all likelihood, the larger the server and especially the more popular, the more the money aspect of it comes into play. In R/L, this is usually, as the expression goes, where the B.S. walks..... This headache alone is surely a struggle that I'm sure you must contend with constantly, perhaps even on a daily basis. I have little doubt that far too much of your own money is put into the till each month.....and to what end? Solely to provide a QUALITY service for a ton of folks....the majority of whom have no personal involvement other than to simply log on and have fun; many with little appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes.

Additionally, I know your time is then spent perpetually having to maintain your equipment...constant monitoring, upgrades, and the rest. Then, to use whatever creative resources are available to you to make maps, missions, plane selections, and the host of all the other necessary ingredients that go into each mission you and your associates so carefully put together....all at no charge to the public. A special thanks here as well should go to guys like, Swiss, Zen, and the many, many other names I see as the creators posted at the bottom of the mission pages. In my eyes, you are all very special people and I feel a debt of gratitude to each of you. (Geez, I couldn't create a mission from sctatch if my life depended on it, much less provide one of quality....)

As any parent, teacher or trainer will tell you, rules and guidelines are necessary in any situation, and the few you have established are an important part of the service you provide. While kids (and adults) don't always know what's expected of them, you do an excellent job of addressing these issues up front. Personally, having kids of my own, I greatly appreciate your rules on profanity. Yes, it's true that kids hear stuff they shouldn't in far too many places, but that doesn't make it right and I greatly appreciate your efforts in this regard. The fact that you constantly monitor your server to ensure the rules are kept is a good thing for us all...especially considering that you ask very little in this way and could easily sit on the sidelines. Kudos as well to the many admins. I see also helping in these ways.

To me, as most people are aware, there is just no way to please all the people all the time. What I find amazing is that, despite this, you still make every effort to do so....remarkable given the circumstances. Even more amazing is your constant willingness to share your knowledge and experience with anyone who asks. In the real world, experience translates into knowledge, which commonly translates into closely guarded secrets for profit. Yet, all you ask for is a donation based only upon whatever anyone can afford.....WOW!

And for your trouble, what do you get in return?
1. A personal financial drain that I'm sure you could easily utilize elsewhere.
2. Perpetual whining and criticism.....ad nauseum....for providing a FREE QUALITY SERVICE!!
3. Constantly having to play the parent: settling silly arguments/disputes, preventing things and actions that ruin the game for everyone else, etc., etc. etc.
4. Personal accountability: You do not ask anything of others that you do not also personally abide by, which you could easily avoid doing.
5. Personal availability: My only question is, when do you sleep??? I constantly see you on line and INVOLVED at all hours of the day and night!

Sparx, I'm not computer literate enough (yet)to help you and all the others involved behind the scenes of War Clouds as well as other quality servers out there, although I truly would if I could. Until that time comes, what I can do is to tell you just how much I appreciate everything you and all the others do each and everyday just so the rest of us can spend time enjoying ourselves. To some, I'm sure this all sounds like a lot of unnecessary patronage, which I honestly can't do a thing about and make no apologies. Hopefully to others (and I know ther are many)perhaps what I am saying is how they feel as well. To that end, for those of us that may struggle with simply finding the trigger on a joystick, to those with years of experience, I would like to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

Nuf said....I have to go and make a donation.

Sincerely,
Pepper

Yockbo
03-24-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teufel_Eldritch:
SPaRX,
Is there any automatic way I can have those commands automatically entered in the game? A autoexec file? Perhaps map/bind them to a key? Typing those commands in everytime I start a server/game is a chore.

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is. I run a server from time to time ([Chowder]Bowl] on ASE) and have found that after you start the server, bring up chat, then hit "&gt;" and up arrow until you get to your mp settings, then hit enter. Now repeat this for the FOE/FRIEND (if you have two mp_dotrange settings).

&lt;Edit&gt; I failed to mention that this assumes that you have already entered your mp_dotrange settings once... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Yockbo on Thu March 25 2004 at 07:12 AM.]

Zen--
03-24-2004, 04:01 PM
@ Capt_Pepper


That is one heck of a nicely done post. Bravo! I don't recall seeing anyone put this much time and effort into saying something positive about another member of the community.

Well done, I positively adore posts like this, which is a sterling example of demonstrating what a community is all about.

&lt;S!&gt;&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-
Tracks (http://209.163.146.67/tracks)

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-24-2004, 05:18 PM
Capt_Pepper

S!!. Thank you for the very kind words. I thought for a minute you were just trying to beat me for the longest post in this thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I appreciate everything you have said in your post. Your and everyone elses enjoyment of the server is reward enough as far as i am concerned. People as me all the time why I do all this and I have yet to answer that question to myself. I do not have any hidden agenda for running the server. I do it out of a love for the Sim to be honest. I enjoy having somewhere to play that provides a good service as well. Sure there are many servers out there that are top knotch and i could just be like everyone else and just play. But I had the opportunity to make this happen, so I thought why not.

Sorry this may seem a little vague, but I just got home from work and my baby girl is crying. So again, thakns for your appreciation of the server and i am glad you enjoy it. I S~ you and everyone else that have helped promote great game play and keep the server alive with fun.

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX

JG6_Oddball
03-24-2004, 08:25 PM
thnx for the server sparx...but thee are some issiues i feel i must take up with you...

#1
do you ever clean the server?? I spawned and just starting taxing when i heard this loud crunching sound...so i killed the motor and jumped out to have a look...there were hundreds of empty beer cans all over the place http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif....and could you plz post a sign telling people not to dump there ash trays right out the window of there planes...the smell of stale beer and smokes makes me sick.

#2

I land and call for the refueling truck and a budwiser tap wagon shows up ( not the fuel i had in mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif) which I really didnt mind ...but 5 dollors for a 12 ounce budweiser!!! ...I was afraid to ask how much the hotdogs cost http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

#3

I have no problem with you putting adverts on ther server to pay for up keep...but do the HOOTER's billboards have tobe right at the end of the runnway on either side!!....as soon as i lift off there tops come off and WAMM i fly right into an AA battery http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

#4

I see you are doing some construction at the end of the field..the sign says "COMING SOON...A GENTLEMENS CLUB" please tell me that it will be a "gentlemens FLYING club" and not the ""exotic"" type, if the latter is the case my wife will never let me on the server and i fear the only flying that will happen is over someone's lap http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

once these problem's are sorted out I think you will have a fine server. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

S!

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-24-2004, 09:03 PM
@JG6_Oddball

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

That was a damn fine post. I will have to get with my management team and have these issues you brought up addressed and taken care of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Thanks a bunch man. I thought I would check in before I headed off to bed (which i do sometimes Capt_Pepper) and I come across your post. You but a nice ending to a tiresome day for sure!

S~

SPaRX

Aviar
03-24-2004, 10:40 PM
Personally, I think this thread deserves 'Sticky' status, and possibly moved to the Technical Support Forum.

I've been running my servers under the same guidelines for a long time and agree with everything SPaRX has said. Well done.

As SPaRX mentioned, it also bothers me when players start complaining about lag on my server. I do everything I can to run a smooth map and still make it interesting and fun.

The thing I have noticed over the years is that the ones complaining about lag are many times the ones causing it. They usually have a slow computer\video card, not enough RAM, too-high settings, a poor connection, or some kind of combination of these things.

Here is a scenario I see all the time...a new player joins my DF server. I start getting lagging messages for that player. Then they start complaining that there is lag. When I mention that THEY are lagging, I usually get a bad attitude in return.

You see, if they simply don't say anything, I usually don't either. After all, I have fairly tight MaxLag settings and if a player's connection is really bad, they will usually get autokicked anyway.

I guess the basic problem is that some people don't have common courtesy or respect for the host or even the other players in the room. Most people don't care to listen to complainers and whiners. It's just not cool.

Anyway, a big Thank You to SPaRX for a great thread.

Happy Flying!

Aviar

--------------------------
AMD XP 2600+
EPoX EP-8K9AI Mobo
1536Mb DDR PC 2100 RAM
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
SoundBlaster Audigy 2
Klipsch 5.1 THX Certified Speakers
CH FighterStick USB
CH Pro Throttle USB
CH Pro Pedals USB
Thrustmaster Tacticalboard
--------------------------

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-25-2004, 04:54 AM
Just a little bump. Wanna keep it on the top for a few days. S!

SPaRX

flyingskid2
03-25-2004, 08:43 AM
love your server. perfect settings in my opinion. do you have a way to monitor idle players and boot them out. the server is always full and it's possible some people are just connecting to watch the action or reserve space for later and not really flying.

VFS-22_SPaRX
03-25-2004, 04:02 PM
Unfortunatly flyinskid there is no way to do that. I have told all the admins to keep a close eye on that very problem. It took me 40 minutes one evening to finally get in the server. When i loggin and look at the players screen, there were 6 people sitting idle. I watched them for 20 minutes and they never choose a side or a plane. Very annoying to say the least. We will be kicking idle players and repeat offenders will get banned. Idling on a full server is nothing short of being extremely rude.

On the good side though, I am glad you enjoy the server. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S~ and happy flying

SPaRX