PDA

View Full Version : Haytham Kenway inspired by Charles Lee?



GreatBeyonder
11-04-2014, 11:41 PM
For those who don't know, Charles Lee historically married into the Mohawk tribe and had twins by the chieftain's daughter. In ACIII, Charles Lee is a racist psycho and the fictional Haytham Kenway takes on his positive traits and Mohawk connections. I was curious if anyone knew of any evidence that this was an intentional choice on the part of the devs.

LoyalACFan
11-04-2014, 11:50 PM
Yeah, Haytham was basically the character Charles Lee should have been. Before launch, it was pretty much generally accepted that Lee was Connor's father, for the reasons you listed above, and because they had already confirmed that he would be in the game, but they were being suspiciously tight-lipped about him.

Personally, I feel like Charles COULD have been Connor's father in one of the earliest drafts, before the Haytham character was conceived. In any case, they ultimately wasted an interesting historical figure by painting him as a racist *****.

GreatBeyonder
11-04-2014, 11:58 PM
I agree, Charles Lee has more in common with Snidely Whiplash than a proper depiction. It was kind of forgiveable with Rodrigo and Cesare, who were essentially supervillains already in real life, but I'm not sure why they felt the need to turn a man who, while kind of a **** and wee bit treacherous, certainly did not deserve to have his character running around harassing little children and gleefully starting massacres.

LoyalACFan
11-05-2014, 12:03 AM
Agreed, AC3 did a pretty good job with its Templars in general, but they completely dropped the ball with Lee.

Farlander1991
11-05-2014, 12:13 AM
There's a theory regarding Lee's sudden change between Haytham's and Connor's sections, that since we're dealing with memories here, all of which are subjective, we have two different projections of Lee. The more noble and trustworthy, if sometimes assholy, Lee from Haytham's perspective and then the racist mother****er from Connor's perspective, because he remembers him that way.

And I must say that this is a very interesting thing to explore in the concept of the Animus (especially given Vidic/Desmond conversation in the first game, where Vidic views Animus as absolute truth and Desmond says there's always room for misinterpretation), however I doubt that this actually was the idea behind whatever happened to Lee.

On the other hand, AC3 has so many subtle (and potentially great) moments that are in the game yet were so poorly developed or accentuated, that it might as well be one of those cases.

DumbGamerTag94
11-05-2014, 12:46 AM
Just because Lee married a Mohawk woman doesn't mean he doesn't think they are inferior.

Let's not forget the time period here. This is a time when people had relationships with slaves, natives, etc but still for some unkown racist reason still held them beneith them. Take Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings for example. Or Avaline's father who married Madeline after he had already borne a child and Aveline's mother was still living in his home as a servant. That's pretty low if you ask me(I had always thought he married Madeline after Aveline's mother disappeared but then read the database and was surprised).

Also note that Lee doesn't say anything specifically "racist". Any degrading thing Lee ever said in AC3 to the best of my recollection was always regarding the Natives primative lifestyle not their race. Things like "you and you're people are nothing....living in the dirt like animals". His comments are all centered around the naitive refusal to adapt to the modern world. Note that Lee's marriage to a Mohawk and his children do not run counter to this belief as he took them to live among the English in the modern world.

Wanting natives to come in to the 18th century isn't "racist" racist means to hate someone solely on the grounds of their color or ethnicity. "Racist" is a word thrown around so often these days that it's lost all meaning. Heck people try to call different nationalities a "race" these days. It's really gotten out of hand. If anything Lees comments reflect conflicting cultural views rather than "racism".

I really hope that Lee and his wife make an appearance an Rogue so this whole "Lees a racist" "Hahtham is Lee" ilk will go away.

VestigialLlama4
11-05-2014, 08:54 AM
For those who don't know, Charles Lee historically married into the Mohawk tribe and had twins by the chieftain's daughter. In ACIII, Charles Lee is a racist psycho and the fictional Haytham Kenway takes on his positive traits and Mohawk connections. I was curious if anyone knew of any evidence that this was an intentional choice on the part of the devs.

I actually wondered about this. In the run up to the release of AC3,many people had theories that Connor would be Lee's son. The main issue with using a historical figure as ancestor is that the animus loses its verisimilitude. So I think haytham was created in place of that.

Initially Connor was supposed to be fully Mohawk before they gave h a mixed background. I guess it also mirrors the decision of Connor and the game not dealing with the Iroquois culture all that much. Its a game that really has a confused approach to what it's trying to be and wishes to say.

avk111
11-05-2014, 10:23 AM
I recon if Haytham was to substitute Charles Lee with another more effecient leader Connor would have accepted the proposal , what do you think ?

Namikaze_17
11-05-2014, 10:14 PM
Some days it crosses my head how Haytham would've been without taking Lee's Traits?

GreatBeyonder
11-05-2014, 11:09 PM
I recon if Haytham was to substitute Charles Lee with another more effecient leader Connor would have accepted the proposal , what do you think ?

It's worth mentioning that even after we learn Washington murdered his mother, Connor still loathes Lee for being a monster. I also don't quite understand how he seems to wield authority over other, more experienced Templars, nor what the writers gained by such a repugnant nemesis. They really wanted an evil Brit, I guess.

Landruner
11-06-2014, 01:58 AM
For those who don't know, Charles Lee historically married into the Mohawk tribe and had twins by the chieftain's daughter. In ACIII, Charles Lee is a racist psycho and the fictional Haytham Kenway takes on his positive traits and Mohawk connections. I was curious if anyone knew of any evidence that this was an intentional choice on the part of the devs.

Yep, you are right and the topic had been reveled several times over thread and posts - Haytham Kenway was inspired by the real Charles Lee, and it opens to you that normally they were indeed two AC conceptual characters for AC3 (Male and Fenale) and for some business ways turned into Connor and Aveline being not blood related at all and separated across video gaming consoles - and the "Apple of Aiden" aka Desmond new skill(s) to hack computers were given to some Mr. Pearce for some other game.