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Th3 Code
10-19-2014, 08:15 AM
I know this is apparently a thing of little consequence in the community since NOBODY talks about it overly, not even in gameplay videos or commentary videos. So basically the developers are saying that they made the combat portion of the game more difficult to add that challenge to make the game "better" but nobody seems to ask any questions about this making the gameplay ultimately worse in some ways.

Personally, I find that if you cannot combat 2 guards at a time (which I may add that all of the guards in the gameplay video seem rather unproportioned and extremely too bulky for a common guard size) since historically in the 1700s soldiers were rather light weight using cloth uniforms for formidable formations and weight management of equipment.. So basically I think guards are modeled "too big" kind of like how people were too unproportioned in the Fable series - but aside from that, I think it takes away from the game if you have so much problems killing a single guard none the less more than one guard. In the gameplay video you clearly see your assassins Arno attack a single guard after hidden blading two guards next to each other and it took Arno roughly 7-9 strikes to kill a guard despite the strike technique. Is this too slow of a combat kill?

I believe that the hardened combat, the removal of counter kill AND counter attack; essentially removing all "Counter" from the game takes away so much fluidity in the immersion. It also discourages you as a player because you are under the impression you're a highly skilled assassin/killer but you can't kill guards in a sword combat circumstance. I cannot tell if this is a game-breaking/deal-breaker for the next generation of Assassins Creed, but I am praying that in the ability to "upgrade skills" that you can upgrade your sword play to the point of at least the very minimum a counter attack if not counter kill.

Has anyone else any input on this?

rivaldragon
10-19-2014, 09:29 AM
I know this is apparently a thing of little consequence in the community since NOBODY talks about it overly, not even in gameplay videos or commentary videos. So basically the developers are saying that they made the combat portion of the game more difficult to add that challenge to make the game "better" but nobody seems to ask any questions about this making the gameplay ultimately worse in some ways.

Personally, I find that if you cannot combat 2 guards at a time (which I may add that all of the guards in the gameplay video seem rather unproportioned and extremely too bulky for a common guard size) since historically in the 1700s soldiers were rather light weight using cloth uniforms for formidable formations and weight management of equipment.. So basically I think guards are modeled "too big" kind of like how people were too unproportioned in the Fable series - but aside from that, I think it takes away from the game if you have so much problems killing a single guard none the less more than one guard. In the gameplay video you clearly see your assassins Arno attack a single guard after hidden blading two guards next to each other and it took Arno roughly 7-9 strikes to kill a guard despite the strike technique. Is this too slow of a combat kill?

I believe that the hardened combat, the removal of counter kill AND counter attack; essentially removing all "Counter" from the game takes away so much fluidity in the immersion. It also discourages you as a player because you are under the impression you're a highly skilled assassin/killer but you can't kill guards in a sword combat circumstance. I cannot tell if this is a game-breaking/deal-breaker for the next generation of Assassins Creed, but I am praying that in the ability to "upgrade skills" that you can upgrade your sword play to the point of at least the very minimum a counter attack if not counter kill.

Has anyone else any input on this?


I have heard that you should be able to take on 3-4 guards without having such big problems if you know what you are doing more than that though will apparently be tough. which I personally like the sound of for the last AC game, I never really think that the guards are a threat, but just something that takes up time whilst on our way to your destination. though all of this is just personal opinions, some people liked to be able to counter kill everyone and everything and some (Myself included) feel just too much OP but I would not mind them adding counter Kills as a later skill you can unlock . though I'm pretty sure that they atleast have skills so you can take on multiple guards with more life and attacks that do more damage and things like that.

Th3 Code
10-19-2014, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I can understand people wanting more challenge in the game and kind of like when Splinter Cell Conviction/Blacklist first game out, so many classic fans outraged because they said it was too easy and that it was unrealistic because you weren't pulling the trigger or aiming the gun yourself. Which in real life, having fluidity with the right amount of training is pure realism. In real life for instance, an operative doesn't have to pause, turn their body in the same motion as a mouse or controller moves a body in order to aim and take a shot. The same kind of concept applies to fluid and fast attacks as a sword and knife wielding assassin.

But to digress - it's perfectly fine, and even desirable that at first you don't automatically have god button counter kill everything... But they need to make it something that you can unlock from training or payment later on in the game. Also side note: When I say "later on in the game" I do not mean 30 minutes before the end of the game. I hate it when games have a progression unlock list that unlocks after specific missions in a game. Preferably, and realistically I believe everything should be unlocked at the start of the game so that you can unlock it yourself at any time with a specific amount of XP or cash. For instance take how you can unlock any skill and perk in Skyrim from the start without a single quest compared to you have to beat 80% of the story campaign in Far Cry 3 to unlock most of the decent skills.

Altair1789
10-19-2014, 07:11 PM
You can definitely fight 2-4 guards with no problem, but 10 will probably be a problem. I really like the changes, seems more like AC1

Th3 Code
10-19-2014, 08:02 PM
And I own every single Assassins Creed (except for AC1) because of the simple matter that I hated it's engine and it's combat was too blocky and Altair was a sissy as well as other gameplay mechanics.. Although back then the game wasn't refined but combat does have a lot to do with me not owning it anymore.

I have the $95 dollar Unity [Gold] preordered but the closer it comes to release date is the less and less sure I am about actually wanting it.

Altair1789
10-19-2014, 08:24 PM
And I own every single Assassins Creed (except for AC1) because of the simple matter that I hated it's engine and it's combat was too blocky and Altair was a sissy as well as other gameplay mechanics.. Although back then the game wasn't refined but combat does have a lot to do with me not owning it anymore.

I have the $95 dollar Unity [Gold] preordered but the closer it comes to release date is the less and less sure I am about actually wanting it.

Back in 2007 when AC1 came out, it was amazing. If you played it after AC2 it's not surprising that you didn't like it

playlisting
10-19-2014, 11:18 PM
I didn't read the entire post and only a few of the responses - so sorry if I've repeated anything.

You're not meant to be able to take on so many people at once. You're an assassin - not a brawler. Quick, fast kills and then disappearing is what it's all about. I've done this with all of the AC games. Assassinate your target and when/if people notice and all the guards are on you - leg it. You've got parkour skills that no one else has so make use of them. With the new mechanic that allows you to go down quickly as well as up - it'll be easier than ever to escape guards. The parkour isn't in there just so you can get from A to B faster :)

Fatal-Feit
10-19-2014, 11:33 PM
I didn't read the entire post and only a few of the responses - so sorry if I've repeated anything.

You're not meant to be able to take on so many people at once. You're an assassin - not a brawler. Quick, fast kills and then disappearing is what it's all about. I've done this with all of the AC games. Assassinate your target and when/if people notice and all the guards are on you - leg it. You've got parkour skills that no one else has so make use of them. With the new mechanic that allows you to go down quickly as well as up - it'll be easier than ever to escape guards. The parkour isn't in there just so you can get from A to B faster :)

That's actually not the case. The guards have surprisingly good parkour skills and some of them can sprint faster than you. It's kind of upsetting and I'm glad they've fixed that in Unity. The guards will now have to find a latter to reach the rooftops and there will be no rooftop guards, unless they're scripted during missions.

Altair1789
10-20-2014, 02:47 AM
That's actually not the case. The guards have surprisingly good parkour skills and some of them can sprint faster than you. It's kind of upsetting and I'm glad they've fixed that in Unity. The guards will now have to find a latter to reach the rooftops and there will be no rooftop guards, unless they're scripted during missions.

I'm so glad they've gotten rid of rooftop guards, they made no sense to me. It's like they're discouraging you from being on the rooftops.They're not hard to kill, but they're annoying

Th3 Code
10-20-2014, 07:33 AM
Back in 2007 when AC1 came out, it was amazing. If you played it after AC2 it's not surprising that you didn't like it

Well I actually started with AC1, and I thought the concept was beautiful, the graphics were beautiful, the scenery and location was beautiful. But it wasn't a game I could play on repeat simply because some of the mechanics in the game were just so frustrating and being locked into a tiny boxed in checkpoint being defeated in sword combat due to poor combat mechanics and being surrounded by 8-12 enemies and no where to go and no way to regain health it was a deal breaker and I was only able to play AC1 twice in its entirety.


That's actually not the case. The guards have surprisingly good parkour skills and some of them can sprint faster than you. It's kind of upsetting and I'm glad they've fixed that in Unity. The guards will now have to find a latter to reach the rooftops and there will be no rooftop guards, unless they're scripted during missions.

Yeah, and some of the guards could parkour so much better than you could, I had some of those agile guards stomping me through parkouring for some minutes at a time until I'd go along and do a leg breaking jump across an entire intersection. I found it ******ed. I understood the roof guards though for houses and building complexes, but what I didn't understand sometimes is HOW the guards got up there. If there's a door leading up there then fine, it works, but if it appears they had to actually climb and parkour their way up then I call BS. No underpaid guard is going to wear 60-80 pounds of equipment and parkour climb to a post and sit up there for hours on their own with no motivation.

But - no more climbing guards? That's a huge step up for AC. Wow.. I'm actually happy about that.

playlisting
10-20-2014, 08:11 PM
That's actually not the case. The guards have surprisingly good parkour skills and some of them can sprint faster than you. It's kind of upsetting and I'm glad they've fixed that in Unity. The guards will now have to find a latter to reach the rooftops and there will be no rooftop guards, unless they're scripted during missions.

What guards have good parkour skills? There are some that can climb the same as you, but not as fast. As for the guards that tackle you - chuck a smoke bomb then disappear round a corner. As far as they're concerned you've just vanished :D

There are a huge amount of players that don't use smoke bombs as much as they should. They make it a lot easier to escape.

Fatal-Feit
10-20-2014, 10:12 PM
What guards have good parkour skills? There are some that can climb the same as you, but not as fast. As for the guards that tackle you - chuck a smoke bomb then disappear round a corner. As far as they're concerned you've just vanished :D

There are a huge amount of players that don't use smoke bombs as much as they should. They make it a lot easier to escape.

I agree, smoke bombs are underrated (when escaping, that is).

Regarding the guards, all of them simply have surprisingly good parkour abilities (e.i running across ropes, scaling walls, climbing over tall fences and running on them without tripping, etc). And Agiles, Janissaries, and Jagers can sprint faster than you. That's something that shouldn't be a concern, as the Assassins are suppose to be the ones who uses those to their advantage, not the other way around.

But speaking of which, Rogue also addresses the issue, as you're fighting against the Assassins and enemies who are trained by the Assassins, not lowly waged guards.

playlisting
10-20-2014, 11:41 PM
Regarding the guards, all of them simply have surprisingly good parkour abilities (e.i running across ropes, scaling walls, climbing over tall fences and running on them without tripping, etc). And Agiles, Janissaries, and Jagers can sprint faster than you. That's something that shouldn't be a concern, as the Assassins are suppose to be the ones who uses those to their advantage, not the other way around.

I suppose, but someone who has played a couple AC games should be able to out manoeuvre the NPCs with relative ease. The AI is quite clumsy I've noticed when using parkour.

topeira1980
10-21-2014, 12:06 AM
I know this is apparently a thing of little consequence in the community since NOBODY talks about it overly, not even in gameplay videos or commentary videos. So basically the developers are saying that they made the combat portion of the game more difficult to add that challenge to make the game "better" but nobody seems to ask any questions about this making the gameplay ultimately worse in some ways.

Personally, I find that if you cannot combat 2 guards at a time (which I may add that all of the guards in the gameplay video seem rather unproportioned and extremely too bulky for a common guard size) since historically in the 1700s soldiers were rather light weight using cloth uniforms for formidable formations and weight management of equipment.. So basically I think guards are modeled "too big" kind of like how people were too unproportioned in the Fable series - but aside from that, I think it takes away from the game if you have so much problems killing a single guard none the less more than one guard. In the gameplay video you clearly see your assassins Arno attack a single guard after hidden blading two guards next to each other and it took Arno roughly 7-9 strikes to kill a guard despite the strike technique. Is this too slow of a combat kill?

I believe that the hardened combat, the removal of counter kill AND counter attack; essentially removing all "Counter" from the game takes away so much fluidity in the immersion. It also discourages you as a player because you are under the impression you're a highly skilled assassin/killer but you can't kill guards in a sword combat circumstance. I cannot tell if this is a game-breaking/deal-breaker for the next generation of Assassins Creed, but I am praying that in the ability to "upgrade skills" that you can upgrade your sword play to the point of at least the very minimum a counter attack if not counter kill.

Has anyone else any input on this?
First - yeah. It IS strange how little journalists ask about combat in ACU.
I expected them to want to learn more about such a big change, yet we see such HUGE praise because now u can parkour down. Thats great but there is very little to say about THAT new ability yet so much to say about the new combat system hut its like ppl dont care.
AC's combat started decent but became horrible by the time AC:IV came. A combat system where all you need to do is counter then kill or guard break then kill. Shallow as a puddle.


Aaaanyway, the new system seems to get rid of "instant kill" moves. U can counter but just like in batman or shadow of mordor - counter doesnt do damage. So being defensive just helps u defend yourself. Not kill. Also it seems like the AI has gotten the biggest change, which looks awesome if im right.

Ifrom all the latest gameplay vids it looks like it takes 3 hits to kill a guard. If it looks like more than thats because the guard parried.

OP, please read (and join!!) the discussion we have about combat here:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/931704-Well-combat-certainly-seems-harder

Th3 Code
10-21-2014, 03:36 AM
I've been going through interviews on multiple game sites and it doesn't seem like any of them have any real information on combat at all. I personally liked being able to kill people quickly and smoothly. For example, take a look at the trailer for Assassin's Creed: Revelation, and look at how smooth and fast Ezio fought in the second half of the trailer. That is the way I think a skilled assassin - especially a master assassin needs to be able to control combat like that and be able to kill quickly. Granted I know that Arno is not a master assassin at first, I have heard Ubisoft say that you are meant to take Arno "along his path to become a master assassin". If you're a master assassin and it takes you 3-7 hits to kill a guard then you need to quit your day job.

You say it takes 3 hits to kill a guard unless he parried, and that countering does no damage at all.. Sometimes doing counters in previous games were the only way to damage an opponent because if you ever swung at them they'd simply counter you or they'd perry (officers in Black Flag, Agiles in AC2 trilogy, and I think Dragons in AC3). Some foes pretty much were 3 times as quick as you and you could never land a hit on them unless you waited for them to attack first.

There are plenty of other things I wonder about ACU, but it'd sadly require a new thread: Can you still enjoy ACU if you play an offline-only game with no coop? Can you fulfil everything without coop? and one feature that needs to be back in ACU which Ubisoft has thrown away for far too long is - would we be able to call NPC assassins to your aid much like in Brotherhood to replace offline coop?

YazX_
10-21-2014, 02:45 PM
There are plenty of other things I wonder about ACU, but it'd sadly require a new thread: Can you still enjoy ACU if you play an offline-only game with no coop? Can you fulfil everything without coop? and one feature that needs to be back in ACU which Ubisoft has thrown away for far too long is - would we be able to call NPC assassins to your aid much like in Brotherhood to replace offline coop?

Yes you can still play it alone and do brotherhood missions alone without co-op, but i expect the game to have integrated online features like AC4, though it wont affect your gameplay if you play offline.

About calling brotherhood, i would love to have it back but i dont think so, however, it was not dropped far too long, it was only dropped in AC4, AC3 had plenty of commands and dedicated menu for the brotherhood.

Green_Reaper
10-23-2014, 12:29 AM
More difficult combat is good in the sense that you can be creative with how to deal with enemies. Simply charging in won't do the trick anymore. That in turn encourages you to find the many other approaches you can take when doing assassination missions. I like that, you would literally have to devise your own plan instead of doing what the objective tells you or following a linear path all the time. It should feel less scripted that way. They've been boasting how there are more than several different ways to do a particular mission, I hope that holds true.

Simon8K
10-26-2014, 10:39 PM
Every ACU video I've seen stressed that you have all the freedom you could ever want in how you tackle missions, even changing the outcome drastically. For a while now I've also been considering the combat, and if you can only take on 2-4 guards comfortably, then there's going to be problems. Every mission so far that I've seen has tons of guards, so now I'm thinking most missions will confine you to stealth or quiet kills. Even in the Notre-Dame mission walkthrough the after the kill was made the Creative Director said that going out through any main level doors would be suicide. Even if your character is heavily armored I seriously doubt you could take on 12+ guards alone, and as far as I know there is no "Assassian Recruits" to help you fight. I feel like combat is all about attacking now, and less about defense. (Countering is actually a defensive move)

The lack of easy combat might totally confine you to a stealth style on many missions. I hope that this is not so because this is the first AC game to give you actual freedom in the way you take on missions.

strigoi1958
10-26-2014, 10:47 PM
I think it depends on what we get in our arsenal. I used to stick with the concealed blades and stealth but as achievements etc taught me to use bombs and ranged weapons I found I used a more varied way to trim down the numbers rather than counter kill each time. Unity I expect (guessing here) will be less gung ho and more planned out.

oliacr
10-27-2014, 11:09 AM
With the return of the bombs, there will be more options. I like that so we'll see.

Fatal-Feit
10-27-2014, 07:13 PM
Even if your character is heavily armored I seriously doubt you could take on 12+ guards alone, and as far as I know there is no "Assassian Recruits" to help you fight. I feel like combat is all about attacking now, and less about defense. (Countering is actually a defensive move)

I wouldn't say defending have lessened with the lack of counter, rather, it's been tweaked (parry). Unlike the previous games where you would counter and kill, then chain or double tool kill, Unity will have you constantly using parry against enemies. It will feel more like AC:1.

oliacr
10-27-2014, 08:49 PM
I wouldn't say defending have lessened with the lack of counter, rather, it's been tweaked (parry). Unlike the previous games where you would counter and kill, then chain or double tool kill, Unity will have you constantly using parry against enemies. It will feel more like AC:1.

I didn't really liked AC1's combat, but it can be because of the technology back then. I am curious about Unity's.

Green_Reaper
10-27-2014, 11:09 PM
Every ACU video I've seen stressed that you have all the freedom you could ever want in how you tackle missions, even changing the outcome drastically. For a while now I've also been considering the combat, and if you can only take on 2-4 guards comfortably, then there's going to be problems. Every mission so far that I've seen has tons of guards, so now I'm thinking most missions will confine you to stealth or quiet kills. Even in the Notre-Dame mission walkthrough the after the kill was made the Creative Director said that going out through any main level doors would be suicide. Even if your character is heavily armored I seriously doubt you could take on 12+ guards alone, and as far as I know there is no "Assassian Recruits" to help you fight. I feel like combat is all about attacking now, and less about defense. (Countering is actually a defensive move)

The lack of easy combat might totally confine you to a stealth style on many missions. I hope that this is not so because this is the first AC game to give you actual freedom in the way you take on missions.

That should make co-op more fun. Other people who you don't know but play with would try to work together as a team rather than trying to do their own thing. I think it's well balanced because it doesn't make 4 human controlled players overkill, since enemies aren't that easy to eliminate alone. Not many games with co-op elements reinforce teamwork, and the result is a horrible game experience.

But then again, that is assuming the other player knows how to play the game and not be an idiot.