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SeaFireLIV
07-18-2004, 05:42 AM
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)


Was bad indeed. Even if not his first language it`s pretty hard to reinterpret that comment as anything else. I would honestly never had believed it had I not read it from the Man himself. It has created several consequences...


1. Increased complaining on certain topics because people now know that CONSTANT WHINING, even with NO FACTS or BIASED FACTS can actually lead to Oleg changing IL2/FB to suit them.

2. People joining in to try and balance out the complaining. People trying to SHIELD Oleg from making changes due to the pressures of unfactual complaints he doesn`t want to make. I`ve noticed quite a few new faces piping up who would normally never say anything.


Let me just add that whining is not really a bad thing in itself though, It can help keep Oleg on his toes and he is only a man, he DOES make errors. I myself have whined on such things like the ability to ESCAPE enemy areas and ordnance for the Hurricane , but always politely, patiently. I even made the mistake once of saying the Hurri had 500lb bombs. Am I glad I was corrected quickly here ( I also checked my Hurri book to see how wrong I was). I immediately admitted my error. Imagine if Oleg had given in to that!


It`s only when whining is used to FORCE him to make unrealistic or unhistorical changes which I think is causing some concerns.


It`s a strange situation: An army of Whiners and an army of anti-whiners seems to be developing.


All we can hope is that Oleg stamps his foot down and stays with what he believes is correct, altering FB ONLY when convinced the change is correct and factual and would help make FB realistic to WWII air warfare.

It`s all a bit sad really and I hope it doesn`t go to PF or BOB...

Just my 2 pennies.

SeaFireLIV...

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SeaFireLIV
07-18-2004, 05:42 AM
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)


Was bad indeed. Even if not his first language it`s pretty hard to reinterpret that comment as anything else. I would honestly never had believed it had I not read it from the Man himself. It has created several consequences...


1. Increased complaining on certain topics because people now know that CONSTANT WHINING, even with NO FACTS or BIASED FACTS can actually lead to Oleg changing IL2/FB to suit them.

2. People joining in to try and balance out the complaining. People trying to SHIELD Oleg from making changes due to the pressures of unfactual complaints he doesn`t want to make. I`ve noticed quite a few new faces piping up who would normally never say anything.


Let me just add that whining is not really a bad thing in itself though, It can help keep Oleg on his toes and he is only a man, he DOES make errors. I myself have whined on such things like the ability to ESCAPE enemy areas and ordnance for the Hurricane , but always politely, patiently. I even made the mistake once of saying the Hurri had 500lb bombs. Am I glad I was corrected quickly here ( I also checked my Hurri book to see how wrong I was). I immediately admitted my error. Imagine if Oleg had given in to that!


It`s only when whining is used to FORCE him to make unrealistic or unhistorical changes which I think is causing some concerns.


It`s a strange situation: An army of Whiners and an army of anti-whiners seems to be developing.


All we can hope is that Oleg stamps his foot down and stays with what he believes is correct, altering FB ONLY when convinced the change is correct and factual and would help make FB realistic to WWII air warfare.

It`s all a bit sad really and I hope it doesn`t go to PF or BOB...

Just my 2 pennies.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
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F19_Gazoo
07-18-2004, 05:49 AM
Yes, I agree with you, what I don´t understand is what makes people whine so much. Were do they get their energy? It´s still a game, a damn good sim, but still a game. I´m grinding my teeth on other things, not this.

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner_D.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 05:52 AM
I agree Seafire.

The problem is, People get into a P-51 and wonder why they can't fly like Bud Anderson, or A 109 and wonder why they aren't an Eric Hartmann.

Problem is, People with only superficail Knowledge are making themselves heard, and disrupting the REAL game for all of us. It's that Damn Vocal Minority thing again.

To all those people that want to Sacrifice Realism for lack of your own ability, Bollocks to you. Oleg will eventually see the light, and you will continue to struggle till you learn how to fly.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

F19_Gazoo
07-18-2004, 05:58 AM
to Farkitt: Yes!!
Head on the nail, as we say here in Sweden!

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Monty_Thrud
07-18-2004, 06:06 AM
Totally agree...
Theres nothing wrong with stating and presenting facts, thats not whining...its the lack of the presenting facts that gets me...oh and the Huricane did carry 500lb bombs...Hurri-Bomber (http://www3.mistral.co.uk/k5083/TECHDATA.HTM) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

p1ngu666
07-18-2004, 06:12 AM
funnily enuff, the .50cal whiners do have a point. it is wwwwwaaaaaaayyyy worse than all other guns really in its dispertion. (so either .50cal is wrong or the others. personaly i think they are all wrong and it should be between .50cal and laser for most guns)

Oleg NEVER to my knowledge gave his sources, hes dismissed guncam footage as propaganda i think gibbage said http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i think oleg is just trying to cover his back or wording something badly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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Monty_Thrud
07-18-2004, 06:22 AM
This is true Pingu666...i personally feel Oleg should have all his flight performance data and ordnance data shown for all to see and from which sources they were taken, maybe a link on the IL2FB home page this would certainly curtail most, but not all the arguments...and until they are i'm sitting on the fence about the .50's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

SeaFireLIV
07-18-2004, 06:29 AM
sorry Pingu, but you should never take as gospel what other forum members say. Even my own!

I know for a fact that Oleg did point out some guncam footage as an example of how much dispersion CAn come from certain guns.

But some people seem blisfully unaware that while footage shows a lot of reality they need to temper what they see with EXACTLY what`s really happening. A few seconds of old, shaky footage NEVER tells the story. What happened BEFORE? What happened AFTER?

There`s one example where a poster said it should be easy to shoot down B17s because there was guncam of a B17 being shot to pieces from directly behind. And indeed the footage showed the fighter swanning up behind a B17 and shooting it with ease...

What should Oleg do? Make all B17s now useless when attacked from the 6?

Of course what the poster had conveniently not noticed/failed to mention/forgot was that the gunner was either dead or incapacitated and unable to return fire, probably being hit by fire or even flak previously.

There is also another situation on the PF forum where some guy alledges 0.50s can cut destroyers in half, then someone else put up footage showing this. Of course the footage showed nothing of the sort... again people (probably quite young people), seeing only one thing and jumping to incorrect conclusions!

This is why GUNCAM can NEVER be taken as Gospel and the same goes for many other facters. ALL evidence and situation MUST first be looked at and considered NO MATTER how much a person insists it`s true.

I also don`t really see why Oleg needs to prove all his data to us? It really is not for us to demand this from him. Whatever he shows someone will find a way to reinterpret as something else and prove nothing. The arguments would still continue.

SeaFireLIV...

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Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 06:36 AM
Thats true. People can interpret Video's differently.

I think Oleg and his Experts on aircraft he's undoubtably got employed, should Find settings that they believe to be correct, and so the Aircraft match up against one another with reasonable historical accuracy, and leave it at that. Sod the Whiners.

That is not to say that People shouldn't be allowed to voice an opinion on something. (Like the Hurricane being able to carry bombs) and let Oleg and his team come up with how strong a 20mm hit should be, or a .50 cal.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
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WTE_Ibis
07-18-2004, 07:07 AM
Just think,if Oleg walks away we're stuck with
MSCFS. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

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jugent
07-18-2004, 07:38 AM
What is the truth about history and realism?
And a whiner is a person that dont agree and a licker is a person that does.

Is Oleg in possesion of the truth or does it belong to the whiners?

The most important person in this matter is the one that has the power of UBI-soft.

If we are open to each other and listen to each other without any imature blockings this can be good.


The majority is alway right you know, if you think that democraty is right.

If to few buys the comming extensions of IL2/FB the whole concept will be closed.

If the majority of the whiners dont buy theese products FB can be the last WWII combat flight simulator done. Perhaps it a good idea to give the FW a correct revisight after all. Or is this historically incorrect?

It is that simple.

Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 07:40 AM
Thats bollocks.

The majority of Germany thought that Nazism was right. Bang goes your theory

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

carguy_
07-18-2004, 07:54 AM
Not good.If Oleg now spoiled the soup I`d like him to tell which FM/DM planes are ahistorical.

I hope that he meant absolutely something different by saying that.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Copperhead310th
07-18-2004, 08:17 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Guncam footage propaganda?!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Oh that's rich! real funny.

I'm sure that the poor guy getting shot up was thinking just that.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

F19_Gazoo
07-18-2004, 08:19 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jugent:

And a whiner is a person that dont agree and a licker is a person that does.

QUOTE]

I think a whiner is person who doesn´t know when to stop.

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Black Sheep
07-18-2004, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I think a whiner is person who doesn´t know when to stop.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on the money.

The amount of whining on these boards is exceptional, even outdoes the Falcon 4 days when the game didn't even work properly.

Despite that, it's still a great forum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ilsigs/Nachtjaeger.jpg

VFS-22_Swiss
07-18-2004, 08:44 AM
What has to be considered here, in my opinion, is the facts of the randomness of war. One time a 50 cal rips a plane in half on guncam, doesn't mean it will happen every time. It would have to come down to maintenance of the aircraft, the ground crew being careful when setting the guns, and most of all skill of the pilot, and yes, luck. The thing that has impressed me most about this game is the RANDOMNESS. Its just not the same effect all the time. That is what makes this game so wonderful to play. When I am in the sim and flying, sometimes I just can't seem to miss, but other times, I can't seem to hit anything. It doesn't have anything to do with how the guns work. We all know, if you hit with guns , ANY guns, you will eventually get kills. Be they MK108, 20MM, or 50 cal. They all work, and they are all enough to bring down what you shoot at, randomly. The mystery is what makes it soo cool.

Swiss

SeaFireLIV
07-18-2004, 08:48 AM
The main point I`m trying to make here is we need to keep Oleg aware that not ALL of us agree when someone decides to make a continuous whine about some subject. Especially if it affects us all ie: Flight Models or Damage Models, Weapon effectiveness of aircraft, etc.

All it takes is if you see a a long whine that`s threatening to over take a forum by its intensity, and you believe that it`s unhistorical or inaccurate just pipe up and type `I don`t agree.`

DO NOT get into an argument! Just make your voice heard. (`I` might get into an argument, but I`ve been here a while and it doesn`t affect me like it does the very first time).

You don`t need realms of text. Do not allow others to put you off by reams of text, often it does not prove as much as they may wish you to think. You don`t need loads of information or facts (but if you do have information, then to counter/support an argument please use).

The point is it appears Oleg has gotten the wrong impression about ALL USERS of FB/IL2 simply from viewing the big shouting whiners here, but with noone posting to say they disagree, therefore causing the imbalance.

Basically, Oleg thinks that by our silence we agree with the loudest minority - which is not always true. We need to let him know.

If we don`t, then our Flight simulation, IL2/FB, even Pacific Fighters and Battle of Britain is in severe danger of becoming a game based on the loudest, unrealistic, unhistorical whiner - not realistic unbiased facts.

SeaFireLIV...

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Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 08:56 AM
Right on again Seafire.

Whenever someone posts a whine. Don't just ignore it.

All you need to do is post two words, "I disagree" or "thats bollocks" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Instead of being the silent mass, we have to voice our opinions of how our hobby should be shaped. Rather than someone who thinks he should be as good as Gabby Gabreski or God Forbid, Ginger Lacey, Whines about the FM or DM or the Guns or Gawd Knows what else.

I've seen good pilots in every plane in me few days flying in Warclouds, that includes 109's 190's Spits Stangs and Jugs. And those last two have .50 cals.

Just Put a post up against a whine, so Oleg can see we like things how they are, or were.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

p1ngu666
07-18-2004, 08:56 AM
i agree with swiss http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ive seen some guncam footage, and some seems the shots are convergering nicely and all that, and others seem messy.
also alot has the vibrations, the tracers go in a S shape as they fly away.

i dont belive a .50cal could cut thru a destorer, well unless u could sit there for ages with a huge pile of ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ive seen em make a big explosion tho on straffing ships.

and ppl have sent lots of data on .50cal to oleg, all the mind bending graphs and stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

for all we know oleg is using that acurate data source, the man from the pub http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 08:58 AM
Well if the professor of Ballistics at Browning drinks at the same pub as oleg, it might be spot on.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

p1ngu666
07-18-2004, 08:59 AM
true, OR mr browning refuses to buy the drinks round, and all the others DO buy the drinks, eg mr shvak, ho, mk http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif.
i dont think the polish buy drinks, judgin how bad the p11 guns are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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FA_Maddog
07-18-2004, 09:04 AM
There were more than one gun cam that showed the 50 cal. could hit in a very small area plus links to other sources that said the same thing.

Oleg didn't give in to the whining, because if he did he would have changed the 190's view. There was one thread that had nearly 1000 posts talking about that. Why didn't he "give in" for the 190 view?

Muzzle flash is another sore spot in the forums that he hasn't gave in to either.

I don't have the new patch yet so I don't know if he has "gave in" to the 50 cal. being fixed, but if he has, it not because he's tired of people whining about it, but because he was shown new information to change his mind.

I believe he has already address the fact that because of his poor English, what he wrote isn't what he meant to say.

[This message was edited by FA_Maddog on Sun July 18 2004 at 08:16 AM.]

tsisqua
07-18-2004, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Changes in US weapon wasn't for P-38 But for US MGs class of weapon. Sorry , but its not about dispercion but about recoil.... Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it. Sorry I'm tired of some stupid people that even can't read with attention the docs that they sent me that to say that we are wrong when these docs just confirm what we model...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This man has put up with more CaCa than probably any other developer of his calliber (no pun intended) over the last couple of years. He did something that I am sure has never been done before: listen to his customers. The ORR forum was a bold experiment in simulation development. It is one of the things that make this IL2 thingy different fom any other game. There has never been an "Ask Rob Brown" forum at the CFS3 site, let alone a "Make Suggestions" forum that he would read and reply to on a WEEKLY basis.

This quote sounds to me like a man that has just had enough. The modifications that were made in version 2.02 have never officially made their way into the game. They never will. With all the emotionally charged statements that have been made by forum members through the last couple of years, some that have had to be followed with apologies, it seems that we should understand by now that people say things that are sometimes:

1. Misunderstood

2. Said out of anger, or frustration

3. Once again, misunderstood because of the language diversities of the people here. Criminy, man, nobody here speks much of my language, and every language has its way of being humorous, or profound, or whatever. When we learn to say things in another language, we sometimes (incorrectly) make direct translations. I was in Germany, and asked my German friend for "licht" (I wanted to light up my smoke). My friend finally stopped laughing, and handed me a small pocket flashlight. I should have asked for fire, not a light as I would in English.

While I understand why Seafire posted this thread here, It is my feeling that we should leave this topic alone until either Oleg comes here to explain his statement, or until we get 2.04 (2.03 having been scrapped because of problems). Good Lord, the patch that we are finally going to get will be two patches removed from the one in question.

Let it go. It is a moot point until we get the 2.04 patch. It is just going to stir more gah-dah, and cause the entire subject to be gah-dah-ha. (well, there is your Cherokee word for the day).


Tsisqua

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Farkitt_
07-18-2004, 09:06 AM
I wouldn't really expect much from the P-11 guns.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
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Lion_13
07-18-2004, 09:13 AM
The basic problem, IMO, is that some people read a few books, magazine articles, or hear personal accounts and think they are experts. Some become whinners when things don't meet their learned preceptions.

They don't take into account that most of the accounts are a persons preceptions of what occured, that memories change over time (60+ years) and many times these accounts are second hand or more. Some are also the authors interpetation of a event from several different accounts.

Others think that they are the greatest pilots on the net and become frustrated when they can't get an kill they thought they should and seek to blame it on either the FM, DM or both.

It should also be noted that FMs and DMs are based on logic and mathematics. The expectation that these should exactly duplicate real life is unreasonable. There were variations within the same model aircraft due to assembly, maintenace, prior damage, age, etc. In FB these variations are probably not taken into account. There are far too many variables to accurately model or model at all.

To be sure, there are some problems with FB, but overall it is heads above the current crop of flight sims. I once rammed an Il-16 with a 109. I blew up, he kept flying without damage. I agree that tail gunners are deadly accurate and that their success should be a little more random. Then again maybe its just me being a lousy shot and stupid for attacking from astern.

[This message was edited by Lion_13 on Sun July 18 2004 at 08:36 AM.]

Aero_Shodanjo
07-18-2004, 09:27 AM
In my own opinion, Oleg has created a far superior WWII flight sim compared to any other out there. I still recalled the day when I played the original IL2 for the first time and I was simply stunned. What a beautiful sight seeing the plane I was shooting at burst in flame (didnt mean to sound like a psychomaniac here, Im simply talking about the quality of the game we're all playing). That and so many other things in this game has got me addicted to it.

The thrill still continues when I played FB and AEP + 201 patch and I can be sure that Im not the only one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Then I joined this forum. Once again, I was stunned. But this time it came when I read so many topics and replies about how accurate/inaccurate this game is. So many posts about how gun/cannon strength should be modelled, about the damage modelling, flight modelling, you name it. But one thing for sure for me, every time i get back behind my joystick and play the game, I forget all about the pros and cons in this forum and just fly to my heart's content. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now each time I managed to sneak behind the enemy (AI, that is... lol, still havent got an internet connection http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and pulled the trigger but failed to bring it down, I was simply put the blame on me for not doing it right.

I do believe that the maker of this game has put so many efforts and researchs to make it as accurate as possible. But sadly, it seems that no matter how accurate a game becomes, there are so many open possibilities that someone still not satisfied with it.

Oh, and while at it, I do admit that Im not an aviation/gun expert nor that Im a historian. So dont take anything I wrote here as advice/insultment or whatever. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Sig/a86d9f37.jpg

hughlb2
07-18-2004, 09:27 AM
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)

Can somebody please reassure me that this statement will say the opposite for BoB. I wan't a sim, not arial Pacman. (not that FB is arial Pacman!)

FA_Maddog
07-18-2004, 09:44 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsisqua:
Let it go. It is a moot point until we get the 2.04 patch. It is just going to stir more gah-dah, and cause the entire subject to be gah-dah-ha. (well, there is your Cherokee word for the day).


Tsisqua

Skee http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tsisqua
07-18-2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Maddog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsisqua:
Let it go. It is a moot point until we get the 2.04 patch. It is just going to stir more gah-dah, and cause the entire subject to be gah-dah-ha. (well, there is your Cherokee word for the day).



Tsisqua

Skee http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Howa, Gusdi. Nihi-tsu? Maddog, CFS lobby gv-gowh-ti-sv-s?

Tsisqua

VW-IceFire
07-18-2004, 09:56 AM
The first thread about this topic thats acutally been somewhat sane. I wonder how long that will last.

I agreed with much of the sentiment that something was indeed wrong. I think I'm starting to feel now that what we've got wrong is only a matter of what is modeled versus what isn't modeled. This means that both parties are right. Oleg's interpretation and some of the other well constructed and well concieved arguments are also right. I think it somehow came down to how the game projects a cone (essentially) of where the fire will land while actual gunnery has a high percentage in a smaller cone and a small percentage in a much larger cone. Thus both possibilities being right and neither being possible of simulating at the same time.

I really hope that Oleg has not caved into pressure on the issue and given something inaccurate. I do hope that if more accurate information is presented that he take all things into consideration.

I will fly and have fun shooting with the 47, 51, and 38 regardless of how the .50cals end up. Thats how most people should approach this.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 10:22 AM
My viewpoint is this,

It's really a cop-out for Oleg himself to just whine about how "everybody wants non-historical so we just gave it to them", and cave in to such interests on one hand....

and on the other hand, get presented with all kinds of facts about muzzle flash (and human perception of same) and 190 cockpits and just decide NOT to do anything about these.

For one thing, it's NOT whining if you have a point. And it's not caving in to anything if the change makes it more correct or a better simulation. It's simply Quality Control.

For two, it is OLEG's decision whether to be realistic or to be popular, no matter how much or how little "whining" (or pointing out mistakes, innacuracies and b***) we do. At the outset, he SAID his goal was to be realistic. OK, then, we have a charter-- live by it. He could begin by getting rid of a few "never flews" from the planeset and arriving at proper flight and weapons damage and ballistics values.

We all do realize he has the final decision and control over the code, like it or not, and has used it on occasion. But has this increased or decreased the overall realism of the sim? I'd say the latter. And that's OLEG's fault and his alone (including the deve team in this, mind you).

FA_Maddog
07-18-2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
My viewpoint is this,

It's really a cop-out for Oleg himself to just whine about how "everybody wants non-historical so we just gave it to them", and cave in to such interests on one hand....

and on the other hand, get presented with all kinds of facts about muzzle flash (and human perception of same) and 190 cockpits and just decide NOT to do anything about these.

For one thing, it's NOT whining if you have a point. And it's not caving in to anything if the change makes it more correct or a better simulation. It's simply Quality Control.

For two, it is OLEG's decision whether to be realistic or to be popular, no matter how much or how little "whining" (or pointing out mistakes, innacuracies and b***) we do. At the outset, he SAID his goal was to be realistic. OK, then, we have a charter-- live by it. He could begin by getting rid of a few "never flews" from the planeset and arriving at proper flight and weapons damage and ballistics values.

We all do realize he has the final decision and control over the code, like it or not, and has used it on occasion. But has this increased or decreased the overall realism of the sim? I'd say the latter. And that's OLEG's fault and his alone (including the deve team in this, mind you).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on what you said except that I don't think Oleg will cave in or at least I hope not.

[This message was edited by FA_Maddog on Sun July 18 2004 at 09:45 AM.]

FA_Maddog
07-18-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Maddog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsisqua:
Let it go. It is a moot point until we get the 2.04 patch. It is just going to stir more gah-dah, and cause the entire subject to be gah-dah-ha. (well, there is your Cherokee word for the day).



Tsisqua

Skee http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Howa, Gusdi. Nihi-tsu? Maddog, CFS lobby gv-gowh-ti-sv-s?

Tsisqua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See,Oh Tsisqua I wish I knew more Cherokee, just a few words.

Capt.LoneRanger
07-18-2004, 10:48 AM
You're correct.

And it really IS a pitty.

But I can also understand Oleg in some way. Not that I would give in to whiners, but there are 2 considerations to be taken:

1. If you write such a thing, every whiner feels like "Hey, they listened to us and now we can play", thought nothing major has changed.
2. Things have changed and it really is a lot easier to stay in the air and dogfight, but this is a product that has to be sold on a market where only a part of the fans are really hardcore-simmers while the majority plays IL2 maybe one or two times a week and don't have the time and energy to invest some time into improving dogfight skills.
It IS a pitty, but at least IL2 is a success and maybe upcoming titles like BoB, maybe even PF will be able to put a greater accent on realism. We'll see. I still hope for it and that times may come again, with simulations like Falcon3/4 and Janes famous Longbow2.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

Flying_Merkava
07-18-2004, 11:04 AM
The joke is on you. Oleg said that cause he did not want to admitt he made a Mistook. Look at the tremedous amount of proof people brought up to fix the roll rate of the P-47, don't tell me that's whining. You are just another brown-noser feel good who thinks calling other people whiners makes you feel moraly higher than them. You aint no better yourself you brown nosing fool. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

http://www.coon-n-crockett.org/jpfo.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-18-2004, 11:25 AM
Never call anyone a Fool, Flying_Merkava, lest you be called one yourself. With that sig you have you ought to know better.

GregSM
07-18-2004, 11:32 AM
Hi All,


I agree generally with Seafire's original sentiments, but I wonder if Oleg's being sold short.

As I understand, Oleg is an AE and a pilot, heading a team full of people with similar backgrounds. How might he be expected to respond to the lower classes of criticism he encounters? Should he suspend production and call upon his obviously wanting use of English to impart forthwith twenty years of knowledge and experience to the fellow whose actual expertise may well involve arranging vegetable displays at the grocery store? What if the vegetable man proves twice as obstinate and little wiser than his vegetables? What if he simply continues inexorably his crusade to re-educate Oleg and the world at large about the 109's capacity to retain elevator authority at speeds upwards of 500 KPH, or about the view from the FW 190, niceties of American weapon dispersion, or crappy Russian/sublime German engineering?

Here's how he might respond: "Historical accuracy" is at once a universally upheld ideal and the cloak behind which the vegetable man promotes his agenda. As such, for the vegetable man it's a kind of tragic flaw. I'd bet Oleg sees this, because appealing as he has to the ideal of "historical accuracy" is a way for him to garnish popular support against illegitimate criticism - "Oleg! Ignore the rabble! You're a genius!" This thread, and my contribution to it, is a predictable example. It's a vulgar class of support, no doubt, but then it's only real function is as counterpoint-for-the-heck-of-it to a vulgar class of criticism. Meanwhile, wearing a wry smile, Oleg carries on as he sees fit, more or less, market pressures excepted.

I think it's a very clever and amusing way to go about pacifying and simply annoying those of his "critics" who deserve most to be pacified and annoyed.


Cheers,


Greg

ASM 1
07-18-2004, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
Just think,if Oleg walks away we're stuck with
MSCFS. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just had a bloody nasty thought reading this. What if Oleg gets so pissed off with all the whiners he says "ah f**k them, whining bastards, I don't need this sh*t".....

And promptly sells the rights to FB...... to Microsoft ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

S!

Andrew

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/asm016/WW2%20Stuff/Sig_Pic.jpg

Obi_Kwiet
07-18-2004, 04:09 PM
But there were lots of non-biased facts. And no proof that it was the way it is in 2.01. How come the .50 whiner wine threads arn't locked while the .50 wine threads are?

LeadSpitter_
07-18-2004, 04:11 PM
when did he say that, i remember people saying he posted that but when i looked he never did it was just people posting it sayingt hats what oleg said.

I doubt he would say something like that after seeing so much proof or bash the community and his game like that.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Bearcat99
07-18-2004, 04:15 PM
Personally I think if the 50s are over done it is only marginally. I think they are closer to accurate now than they were when they were undermodelled... and they WERE undermodelled... I dont care what Oleg says. I have read too many accounts and seen too much real guncam footage.. some from the actual films.... on a projector I mean.. and the 50s we had were no where near the potentcy,regardless to range. I have dumped half my ammo load into a 190 from pretty close range.. OFFLINE and the darn thing still didnt blow up or even start to smoke under the old 50s.. and I am talking about the majority of the hits forward of the headrest in a P-47... not even the pilot kill. Now though I can get the pilot kill, saw off a wing with my 8 50s at close range. I saw an interview with a few Tuskegee Airmen who were saying that the dispersion settings (they called it convergence but it was clear they were talking about dispersion) and the guy said that each crew chief set it according to the pilots wishes. Some pilots wanted the wider dispersion and some wanted the tighter dispersion (He mentioned dispersion so tight you could get the bullets in a space the size of a 50 cent piece.. in fact this show was about machine guns and they were talking about 50 cals). What I dont understand is A)Why cant the dispersion be set like convergence and B)If the convergence is set to a specific point say 200m why is it that the bullets dont converge there... with some of the dispersion I have seen in FB it is clear that no matter where you set your convergence they will never "converge" under the old 50s because the dispersion was just too wide.

The thing that kind of pisses me off about what Oleg said is that it left open the door for all the stuff we now have cruising down the pike about over modelled guns and whiners getting thier day and like SeaFire said... it makes people think that whining pays.
Gibbage came up with what I thought were very compelling FACTS... with pictures and everything.. not ambiguous pics that dont tell you anything like a lot of the ones from the 190 cockpit fiasco that were subject to interpretation and from different angles, but actual pics from FB itself showing the dispersion and the difference between the 50s and other guns. THAT was what made what Gibbage did less a whine and more of a presenting of the facts in black and white. I still think FB is great either way and I will fly it probably for a good while. I can see myself fireing this thing up 5 years from now for old times sake no matter what is on the market.. to me it is THAT good.. but this thing here is a bit of a bump in the FB love. Oh well..... gotta take the roaring of the mighty waves of you want the ocean.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

AFJ_Locust
07-18-2004, 04:17 PM
I think the day Oleg said that he was Drunk or lack of sleep, Oleg has never done anything he didnt want to do, Look @ the FW View Thred there was great evidence and a Mile long post in ORR about the FW view but Oleg didnt budge & he didnt change it to please anyone. I think hes wrong but that my opinion wich I reserve.

I also think the .50s are underpowerd & there spred is to much Proven by Gibage in many tests.

I hope he just makes them as they should be nothing more nothing less Personaly I think there ok right now & could live with it if they didnt change but I still think there underpowered

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

faustnik
07-18-2004, 04:17 PM
Seafire's point has nothing to do with .50 cal. He is talking, I hope, about baseless whining, without facts of any type to back them up. On that I agree with him 100%!

On the other hand, if you do see a problem with the sim, and you have some data that runs contrary to what you see in the sim, it is appropriate to post it. Such a post is certainly not a whine and the poster should not be labeled a "whiner". Such labeling and refusal to listen to another's question or arguement is as bad as baseless complaining.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com) is recruiting
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31)

Obi_Kwiet
07-18-2004, 04:22 PM
He cares for the cumminity and either thinks there was a good case for Gib's possition, or just wants to give the community what they want. And I think the community was right. Boy, alot of suckups sprang up after he anounced that though.

Atomic_Marten
07-18-2004, 04:24 PM
So basically I can whine about anything in IL-2 and get myself an army of following whiners? It was always like that on this forum. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I was actually believed some of those whine posts 'till I ask myself "where are those ppl found that data about subject of whining thread?".

I think that Oleg&CO have far more data and knowledge of WW2 A/C than any of us mortals on IL-2 GD forum.

Bearcat99
07-18-2004, 04:26 PM
AS far as the muzzle flash.. why cant it be put in the conf.ini file like the trees thing? Maybe i am missing something here.. personally I dont think it is that bad but maybe thats because of the planes I fly... but still.. what is the big deal? Why cant it just be purt in the ini file.... MUZZLE FLASH=0 (1,2,3). If it can be done with the trees then sure ly it cant be a major programming headache to rework for the muzzle flash.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

Obi_Kwiet
07-18-2004, 04:26 PM
Than they would show us.

p1ngu666
07-18-2004, 04:41 PM
bearcat try a 110 with 2x mk108..
u cant see a THING out front

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Bearcat99
07-18-2004, 05:06 PM
I posted in the ORR to Oleg about the above suggestion. It seems to be that it shouldnt be all that hard to do.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

Cajun76
07-18-2004, 05:41 PM
Tsisqua & Bearcat, excellent posts, and Seafire's original, to a piont. The game should not be changed according to whines. I also don't think any thread, whether, it's Hurribombers, 'bar' threads or the half-inch gun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif debate should be spammed by "I don't agree" That's the kind of thing that lit up the discussion in the first place. People with nothing to contribute, no data, no facts, simply inciting controversy by doing much the same thing.

For example, if you have 3 posters putting well reasoned aurguments for Hurricane ordinace, and 50 guys come in and post "bollocks! I don't agree!" it does nothing more than drag the discussion down with useless posts. You can ignore them, to a certain point, because they can't be taken serious, but as soon as someone pipes up and wants to debate, you've muddied the discussion with irrelevence. All that hard work by the original 3 to get their piont across about Hurribombers is set back or even undone. I don't want to see that done to any thread.

That quote has been rather abused, and taken out of context. I think Tsisqua is dead on with his view. Nothing has changed, and I believe Oleg will do what he believes is right. In fact, Oleg has a bit of a funny bone at times, and I wouldn't be suprised if the MG 131, Ho-103, UBK and heavier weapons were made realistic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Btw, I'm a big fan of Oleg and this game/sim. I just don't happan to agree with him 100% of the time. I can, however, count on him to do what he believes is correct.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

zenflyer
07-19-2004, 11:38 AM
To add my two penny's worth into the mix, Seafire I agree with you, debate is one thing, whining is a different kettle of fish altogether. Some of those various threads get very heated, then the mud slinging starts and then downright abusive. I dunno, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif to be a moderator on this forum you have to have the patience of St. Francis of Assisi and have the wisdom Lao Tse, never mind what Oleg gets bombarded with, to me though it's just a simulation or game ..... call it what you will, it's NOT real life. It's an approximation of a period of time and events, no computer, game or progamme no matter the coding or skill of a progammer can actually duplicate accurately the real world, for there's way too many viriables. I really enjoy this simulation, game, whatever you call it, I really do and to be honest these forums as well, for there are for the most part thought provoking, helpful and good natured; most of the time. But there are times when one does want to scream at the pig-headedness that does rear it's ugly head. Constructive critiscism is one thing, hurling abuse around is quite another, just because someone takes a different stance from you. We are all adults here, so then lets behave as such, not much too ask now is it?

Atomic_Marten
07-19-2004, 12:10 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif
I was watching some episodes of the "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" where Chief and dr.Bashir participate in BoB on English side in Quark's holo. But it is irrelevant on which side they were.

What is really important: they were not whining that something is incorrectly modelled. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Capt._Tenneal
07-19-2004, 12:16 PM
Speaking of Oleg's quote... Lexx Luthor should place it in the quotables list in his sig. It has since become a classic.

jazman777
07-19-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I posted in the ORR to Oleg about the above suggestion. It seems to be that it shouldnt be all that hard to do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Things aren't always what they seem to be.

LEXX_Luthor
07-19-2004, 04:02 PM
Nah, it must be a sore spot for Oleg, Be Sure, so I won't sig it.

However, I enjoyed the way Oleg sneaked in Wing Snap and teh Leading Edge FM Experts didn't even know it (cos they never asked) until Oleg went pubic with it, and the following spectacle of pubic Whining.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

AFJ_Locust
07-19-2004, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:

I think that Oleg&CO have far more data and knowledge of WW2 A/C than any of us mortals on IL-2 GD forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont kid yourself man!!

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

AFJ_Locust
07-19-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
Speaking of Oleg's quote... Lexx Luthor should place it in the quotables list in his sig. It has since become a classic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya a classic bit of BS

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

BaldieJr
07-19-2004, 04:48 PM
Here is a fun Oleg quote:

"Ok. We did protection that was preventing any possible future cheating." 10-03-04 04:10


OMFG HE LIED TO US ALL I'M GOING TO **** ON THIS THREAD NOW!!!!1

Seriously: shut up. Just play the game, and if its not entertaining enough to you, try some other game.

Fw-190D-9
07-19-2004, 05:46 PM
Here is my opinion, if the planes and weapones act like they should by the stat reports and other data on them then there is not need for complaining. Its when they don't act like they should when I think things need to be fixed. So if you can back up your point with hard cold solid facts then your right and it shoudl be fixed. Nevere in any case should something be "fixed" if the person only "Feels" that its not right and doesn't have the data to prove that it is wrong.

Atomic_Marten
07-19-2004, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:

I think that Oleg&CO have far more data and knowledge of WW2 A/C than any of us mortals on IL-2 GD forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont kid yourself man!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So what, are you immortal? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

wayno7777
07-19-2004, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
Tsisqua & Bearcat, excellent posts, and Seafire's original, to a piont. The game should not be changed according to whines. I also don't think any thread, whether, it's Hurribombers, 'bar' threads or the half-inch gun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif debate should be spammed by "I don't agree" That's the kind of thing that lit up the discussion in the first place. People with nothing to contribute, no data, no facts, simply inciting controversy by doing much the same thing.

For example, if you have 3 posters putting well reasoned aurguments for Hurricane ordinace, and 50 guys come in and post "bollocks! I don't agree!" it does nothing more than drag the discussion down with useless posts. You can ignore them, to a certain point, because they can't be taken serious, but as soon as someone pipes up and wants to debate, you've muddied the discussion with irrelevence. All that hard work by the original 3 to get their piont across about Hurribombers is set back or even undone. I don't want to see that done to any thread.

That quote has been rather abused, and taken out of context. I think Tsisqua is dead on with his view. Nothing has changed, and I believe Oleg will do what he believes is right. In fact, Oleg has a bit of a funny bone at times, and I wouldn't be suprised if the MG 131, Ho-103, UBK and heavier weapons were made realistic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Btw, I'm a big fan of Oleg and this game/sim. I just don't happan to agree with him 100% of the time. I can, however, count on him to do what he believes is correct.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, and it is really hard to get through all the bullshine sometimes. I wonder how Oleg & Co. does(?) it? I've read thousands of pages on the WWII airwar over the past 37 years and IMHO there things in game that don't seem right, but I'm thinking that some of these things are next to impossible to get right on 2D computer screen....Pictures usually don't lie, but usually don't tell the whole story, either. Like the pictures of a P-38 being bore-sighted and test fired at night.
http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/P-38Firing2.jpg
The ones I have show the four guns firing and converging down range. The problem with the pics is you're not told what they're being set for and because it's a b/w photo there are no range markers to determine where they are converging. And because the pic is one frame you don't see any recoil jittering.(if there was enough to make it visible) I do think that we all tend to go overboard occasionally.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/Aircraft/heinkel_219.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

WUAF_Badsight
07-19-2004, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-19-2004, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-19-2004, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



THE MYTH PERPETUATES

he was talking to v2.02 users


nothing in FB was made to be un-historical in his opinion

because FB is currently at v2.01

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
07-20-2004, 06:30 AM
Hi,

So, on the basis that I couldn't be ar*sed to read all of the thread, what's the context of Oleg's comment about making things a-historical? Are we talking v2.02 or v2.01 or are we going to be suitably unimpressed with the v2.0x patch possibly released today?

In response to what I have seen, though:

a. Guncams can be propaganda as it's possible to choose those sequences which serve your purpose best. As stated, not all attacks may have caused structural failure etc..only the one(s) chosen for the newsreel. Liken this to the US Patriot missile system in Gulf War 1 which was reported to be 'highly effective'.

b. Ginger: Can you provide some numbers as to indicate that the majority of Germans being Nazis..for example: Nazi party member figures as a percentage of the entire population? I ask this in the sense that Nazism should not be confused with people agreeing with total employment (following economic doldrums), a re-newed sense of national pride (albeit misplaced), and the fear of death/persecution for not 'towing the line'. In no way do I support Nazism but I do think it's interesting that blaise statements can be made without supporting evidence.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

Red_Storm
07-20-2004, 07:53 AM
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993

tsisqua
07-20-2004, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My people weren't always considered Americans, oddly enough. In the old nation (Cherokee) there was a saying that "If you give an American a pig, do they say 'thank you?' No. They say 'Give me another pig'."

But seriously, I think that most of us are sensible enough to know better than to believe that there were American planes in BoB. Just because we are Yanks doesn't make us stupid.

Tsisqua

dadada1
07-20-2004, 08:43 AM
Leave the developement to the developers.

SeaFireLIV
07-20-2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

So, on the basis that I couldn't be ar*sed to read all of the thread, what's the context of Oleg's comment about making things a-historical? Are we talking v2.02 or v2.01 or are we going to be suitably unimpressed with the v2.0x patch possibly released today?

In response to what I have seen, though:

a. Guncams can be propaganda as it's possible to choose those sequences which serve your purpose best. As stated, not all attacks may have caused structural failure etc..only the one(s) chosen for the newsreel. Liken this to the US Patriot missile system in Gulf War 1 which was reported to be 'highly effective'.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has any one seen CSI? I`m sure some have, it`s on in England now.

Anyway, point is look at GUNCAM footage as one would look at a crime scene. Take NOTHING at face value. SEE what`s really going on. What occurred before and after AND consider the CONTEXT of the situation under which the guncam was taken.

Never see a guncam then say: `OLegg change such and such cos this Guncam shows it` without proper objective/unbiased checking of what you THINK you see!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

TacticalYak3
07-20-2004, 08:54 AM
Two problems -

(1) Even putting aside the significant computer limitations, it is not possible to create a simulation that is truly faithful to historical facts because even WW2 vets I suspect years later perceive their actual experiences differently then any airplane spec sheets would suggest should have happened. The actual situation and human condition would/could have made a significant difference in actual battle.

Add to that the historian's bias, not to mention national pride, etc... and the reality of flight combat is next to impossible to accurately portray in such a simple sim (I respectfully say simple because we are not using "NASA" equipment to play it on but simple little PCs with who knows what kind of equipment).

(2) Secondly, with regards to Oleg's comment while it is/was unique and wonderful to have the game designer so directly involved with the community, a more prudent business approach would have been to separate himself from the gamers from the very start, and only correspond with us via official press releases screened by his advisors.

His handling of this matter has exposed the "man" opposed to presenting the company. Understandable frustration but not healthy from a business point-of-view.

For me it illustrates his love for the game, even though his comments were indeed regrettable.

TactS!

___________________________________________

"My Luftwaffe is invincible . . . And so now we turn to England. How long will this one last - two, three weeks?" (Hermann Goring, June 1940)

:FI:TacticalS!

Capt._Tenneal
07-20-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, not American planes. That would be too obvious. American PILOTS -- that's another matter entirely. He'll put a ton of Tom Cruise wannabes in BOB ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AFJ_Locust
07-20-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:

I think that Oleg&CO have far more data and knowledge of WW2 A/C than any of us mortals on IL-2 GD forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont kid yourself man!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So what, are you immortal? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I simply ment that there are plenty others with alot more knoledge of specific ac & there flight charictistics than Oleg, he knows Russian ac well im sure, I dont think he knows much about American AC, No im not whining either LOL.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

AFJ_Locust
07-20-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The same mistake !!!
& there was no US AC IN eastern front ?

LOL

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

Atomic_Marten
07-20-2004, 10:11 AM
Locust for sure you have nice way to telling me that u disagree. If u say that when u quote my post in first place I wouldn't play dumb. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I basically agree with dadada1's above post.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-20-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

So, on the basis that I couldn't be ar*sed to read all of the thread, what's the context of Oleg's comment about making things a-historical? Are we talking v2.02 or v2.01 or are we going to be suitably unimpressed with the v2.0x patch possibly released today?

In response to what I have seen, though:

a. Guncams can be propaganda as it's possible to choose those sequences which serve your purpose best. As stated, not all attacks may have caused structural failure etc..only the one(s) chosen for the newsreel. Liken this to the US Patriot missile system in Gulf War 1 which was reported to be 'highly effective'.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has any one seen CSI? I`m sure some have, it`s on in England now.

Anyway, point is look at GUNCAM footage as one would look at a crime scene. Take NOTHING at face value. SEE what`s really going on. What occurred before and after AND consider the CONTEXT of the situation under which the guncam was taken.

Never see a guncam then say: `OLegg change such and such cos this Guncam shows it` without proper objective/unbiased checking of what you THINK you see!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

er...Was that in support of my post on guncams? If so, that was the point I was trying to make.

In support of your post, if there is guncam footage showing the structural failure of an aircraft, this footage may have been the only one to show such damage from the cameras of 100 aircraft in the same situation. In that respect, are we suggesting that structural failure should occur every time when, in fact, it's only in 1% of cases?

Of course, the same argument can now be applied to the Mk108 hit on the Spitfire that we see often.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

LEXX_Luthor
07-20-2004, 10:43 AM
AFJ_Locust:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No I simply ment that there are plenty others with alot more knoledge of specific ac & there flight charictistics than Oleg, he knows Russian ac well im sure, I dont think he knows much about American AC, No im not whining either LOL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
You need to ask "oleg I was (choke) wrong" SkyChimp about that.

You won't find any "plenty others" on this amatuer Slop webboard. Rather than compare Oleg to slop webboard posters, we must compare Oleg to flight sim Devs, like...say...Microsoft Devs for example http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

jeroen_R90S
07-20-2004, 11:46 AM
2 seperate posts...:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
The same mistake !!!
& there was no US AC IN eastern front ?
LOL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
No I simply ment that there are plenty others with alot more knoledge of specific ac & there flight charictistics than Oleg, he knows Russian ac well im sure, I dont think he knows much about American AC, No im not whining either LOL.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can someone say 'contradiction'?? LOL, j/k http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jeroen

==============================
Ah you LaGG, my lightened LaGG,
why don't you wish to fly?
Over the wild Black Sea water
your cockpit you made me leave.

Red_Storm
07-20-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The same mistake !!!
& there was no US AC IN eastern front ?

LOL

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I'm saying all the trouble started when the American kids started overrunning this game and started demanding things. The few years before American planes were added were reasonably quiet.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993

Cajun76
07-20-2004, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:


No, I'm saying all the trouble started when the American kids started overrunning this game and started demanding things. The few years before American planes were added were reasonably quiet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"American kids?" "Overrunning?" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif But I suppose the 190 should still fly like a pig, the veiw from the cockpit is perfect, when damaged, the wing should a)fall off b)reduce top speed by half, among others. All these were fixes, insisted upon by the community, sometimes with great vitriol. But of course, they weren't whines, they were legitimate fixes, right? Just because half the boards were filled with these demands, dosen't mean the "German kids" were "overrunning" the game, were they? Because, according to you, only Americans fly American built planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif It's people like you that make generalzations about the political affiliation of all Germans in WWII. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif This debate is no different than trying to get a complex DM for the 190, and has been supported with data and tests from day one. As far as what Oleg said, he was talking to v2.02 users, which were using a version not quite intended for release.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

crazyivan1970
07-20-2004, 03:51 PM
What it has to do with american kids? How about us, kids, members of this forum? Then more things were done then more damanding this community became. And please do not try to sell me "They must do it, we payed for it" cr@ap either. There were always people who complained and accused in bias towards whatever, from the point of russian planes being way too uber because devteam is russian and to the point of german planes being a UFO because Oleg flies LW birds. Those who`s here from the beginning seen it all. And later on, pretty much the same people complained about american planes being to slow too sluggish... to underpowered.. you name it - they will give NASA manual for it. And you better be sure that tomorrow we go into OMG - American planes are way too uber by same people again. That`s the case and it has nothing to do with NATIONALITY, but has everything to do with PERSONALITY.

So don`t blame anyone for anything, blame yourself.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

CPS_Lav69
07-20-2004, 04:03 PM
What an oxi-moron of sorts, whinning about whinning.

------------------------------
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/205/205188/folders/147718/1114708dbtrb.gif
------------------------------
Double Trouble

Red_Storm
07-20-2004, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:


No, I'm saying all the trouble started when the American kids started overrunning this game and started demanding things. The few years before American planes were added were reasonably quiet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"American kids?" "Overrunning?" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif But I suppose the 190 should still fly like a pig, the veiw from the cockpit is perfect, when damaged, the wing should a)fall off b)reduce top speed by half, among others. All these were fixes, insisted upon by the community, sometimes with great vitriol. But of course, they weren't whines, they were legitimate fixes, right? Just because half the boards were filled with these demands, dosen't mean the "German kids" were "overrunning" the game, were they? Because, according to you, only Americans fly American built planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif It's people like you that make generalzations about the political affiliation of all Germans in WWII. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif This debate is no different than trying to get a complex DM for the 190, and has been supported with data and tests from day one. As far as what Oleg said, he was talking to v2.02 users, which were using a version not quite intended for release.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was talking about American KIDS overrunning the game. I didn't say anything about the regular American, well, it doesn't have to be Americans specifically even, let's jsut say the people that fly American planes. Let's be honest, when the first American planes were released, the forums were infested with whines about how crappy the P-47 was, etc.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-20-2004, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Maddog:
There were more than one gun cam that showed the 50 cal. could hit in a very small area plus links to other sources that said the same thing.

Oleg didn't give in to the whining, because if he did he would have changed the 190's view. There was one thread that had nearly 1000 posts talking about that. Why didn't he "give in" for the 190 view?

Muzzle flash is another sore spot in the forums that he hasn't gave in to either.

I don't have the new patch yet so I don't know if he has "gave in" to the 50 cal. being fixed, but if he has, it not because he's tired of people whining about it, but because he was shown new information to change his mind.

I believe he has already address the fact that because of his poor English, what he wrote isn't what he meant to say.

[This message was edited by FA_Maddog on Sun July 18 2004 at 08:16 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Oleg did change tje .50 and not 190 view or flash muzzle, it is because .50 dispersion is MUCH MUCH easier to change than the 2 others thing, because of technical reason.

------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

LimaZulu
07-20-2004, 06:19 PM
How many people posting on this board bothered to read the "terms of use"?

http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm

The third article under the Rules of Conduct states you violate the Terms of Use if you: "Post content or send Communications of any form impugning someone's race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, political beliefs, or ethnic heritage."

Post content... ... of any form impugning someone's... ...national orgin...

I would like to see more inforcement of that particular article.

LZ

Gibbage1
07-20-2004, 07:50 PM
There's that strange swirling sound again.

wayno7777
07-20-2004, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, not American planes. That would be too obvious. American PILOTS -- that's another matter entirely. He'll put a ton of Tom Cruise wannabes in BOB ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm saving P. Bronson skins for BOB. I'll have 007 James Bond for a pilot!

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/Aircraft/heinkel_219.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Luftwaffe_109
07-21-2004, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Farkitt_:
Thats bollocks.

The majority of Germany thought that Nazism was right. Bang goes your theory

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is pure stupidity.

Even at the height of their power, despite widespread intimidation and coersion (by the SA, for example) and propaganda, the NSDAP did NOT EVER achieve a majority in the Reichstag (in fact, their best result was only 43.91% in the 1933 election, certainly not a majority).

Furthermore, membership with the NSDAP only ever rose to 8 million by 1945, once again, no where near a majority. In 1933, the year Hitler came to power, it was only 849,000. Three year earlier it had been a mere 129,563. Note also that membership was compulsary for certain individuals, for example I think that one needed to be a member of a Nazi organisation to be a teacher, etc.

So to use your own words, "bang goes YOUR theory".

[This message was edited by Luftwaffe_109 on Wed July 21 2004 at 03:30 AM.]

[This message was edited by Luftwaffe_109 on Wed July 21 2004 at 03:38 AM.]

Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 03:40 AM
Norris wrote:
"b. Ginger: Can you provide some numbers as to indicate that the majority of Germans being Nazis..for example: Nazi party member figures as a percentage of the entire population? I ask this in the sense that Nazism should not be confused with people agreeing with total employment (following economic doldrums), a re-newed sense of national pride (albeit misplaced), and the fear of death/persecution for not 'towing the line'. In no way do I support Nazism but I do think it's interesting that blaise statements can be made without supporting evidence."

I'd recommend Michael Burleigh's recent award winning book (cunningly titled Third Reich) as a good background on the history leading up to Hitler seizing/being given power and the subsequent Nazification of Germany. Essentially the Nazi party was an important party that only ever garnered a minority of votes. German conservatives felt that the Nazi Party was waning, but that its support would be useful in the short term, hence Hitler obtaining the Chancellership. Sadly Hitler had pulled the wool over their eyes and the rest is, as they say, history. Levels of Nazi party membership do not indicate levels of support since by the later 1930s membership was basically required to progress in careers and many joined the party to this whilst hoping the Nazism would soon go away. Not the morally ideal way to do things, but not uncommon. On the other hand, Nazism did have significant support. The creeping softly-softly approach helped keep this support.

Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 03:41 AM
Rest of the Nazism stuff is off topic (private topic time?). I'll advance my Wallace Simpson theory then too :-)

SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 03:43 AM
Er... guys?

This wasn`t what the thread was really about...

Can we stop now? The patch is out, we must live with it and move on. END STORY.

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/whinersend.jpg

Cajun76
07-21-2004, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:


No, I'm saying all the trouble started when the American kids started overrunning this game and started demanding things. The few years before American planes were added were reasonably quiet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"American kids?" "Overrunning?" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif But I suppose the 190 should still fly like a pig, the veiw from the cockpit is perfect, when damaged, the wing should a)fall off b)reduce top speed by half, among others. All these were fixes, insisted upon by the community, sometimes with great vitriol. But of course, they weren't whines, they were legitimate fixes, right? Just because half the boards were filled with these demands, dosen't mean the "German kids" were "overrunning" the game, were they? Because, according to you, only Americans fly American built planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif It's people like you that make generalzations about the political affiliation of all Germans in WWII. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif This debate is no different than trying to get a complex DM for the 190, and has been supported with data and tests from day one. As far as what Oleg said, he was talking to v2.02 users, which were using a version not quite intended for release.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was talking about American _KIDS_ overrunning the game. I didn't say anything about the regular American, well, it doesn't have to be Americans specifically even, let's jsut say the people that fly American planes. Let's be honest, when the first American planes were released, the forums were infested with whines about how crappy the P-47 was, etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Let me reiterate it for you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif There were just as many whines about LW planes, especially the 190 "infesting" (your word, not mine) the forums. Notice I didn't generalize, and say all people who fly LW. Just as not everyone who flies American planes has asked for this or that to be fixed. The Fw-190 used to be such a pig in this sim. I would fly against them and pity the poor souls flying them. They needed numerous improvements to get them to where they are now. Improvements the type needed, imho. That's the main reason ther aren't so many 'whines' from that quarter anymore. Why? Most everything that was 'whined' about is now fixed. Result? General satisfaction in the FM/DM of the LW a/c. They are generally close to what most everyone believes is correct for them. The majority of American built planes are newer here, and have had their share of bugs. Some still do. If the interest in this game/sim is realism, then what is wrong if the newer planes need improvements as well, just like the Fw-190 did.

Same thing with the P-47. And I don't really blame Oleg for his view of the P-47, it is totally opposite to Russian tactics during the war. It wasn't built nor suited for the kind of role the Russians wanted in a fighter. It performed well high. The Russians didn't need high alt fighters. (MiG-3) It dived well. The Russians didn't need excellent divers, they were usually flying pretty low to begin with. It didn't turn well, not was it very fast on the deck. All these things make it a poor fighter in Russian hands, just as the P-39 was a poor fighter in USAAF hands. However, it's single greatest disadvantage it the Western theater was range. It had a respectable A2A record, where it faced the LW at their peak in the Western theater, before the P-51 arrived in numbers. So Oleg dosen't have a high opinion of it, and that been difficult to overcome in getting it to perform as it should, game engine limitations aside.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 04:03 AM
*sigh*
ok, carry on then....

WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 04:23 AM
a whine is only a whine if it has no basis

if we agree on that then there can be no saying that there ever was any FW-190 "whineing"

every plane in FB has a overmoddeled climb-rate

every plane that is EXCEPT for the ENTIRE FW-190 family

then there is the things wing-over stalls

then theres the incorrect Dora speeds

& the Dora overheat / engine termination times

& the TAs flat spins

& the TA gunsite weakness

& the incredible speed loss from wing hits

& the GAWD-DAMM FOWARD view

& . . . . . . .

& . . . . .

& . . .



.



(can you see why the FW-190 fans can get to thinking there might be something "not right' with their plane now ? huh ?)

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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alarmer
07-21-2004, 04:35 AM
After that list it is only fair to declace Fw190 series "The most porked plane in il2 ever" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sad but true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

HuninMunin
07-21-2004, 04:48 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif Thanks for reminding me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix

Oberst der Deutschen GoF Trolling Korps

dadada1
07-21-2004, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I just hope Oleg isn't going to make the same mistake of adding American planes to BoB. Reach out a hand, they take an arm.

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http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The same mistake !!!
& there was no US AC IN eastern front ?

LOL

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course as everybody knows it was the intervention of long range US fighters which saved the RAF from certain defeat during the BATTLE OF BRITAIN. If you did'nt know that then you do now, I have good sources which I can post if necessary. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
07-21-2004, 06:05 AM
Hi,

A few points (wish they were pints, but never mind):

I agree with Red Storm...to some extent - they vast majority of thread space has typically been given over to whines about US aircraft/guns or backslapping about how this US aircraft/that US whatever "won the war." If nothing else, the latter comments are OT in this forum if they stray into being nationalistic and I think it's that what annoys people and causes conflict. Trouble is, it's a fine line between banter and aggro and it's often crossed.

But, as I've mentioned SO many times before, we have to be careful that continuous whining does not get translated into non-historical cobblers and that works both ways. I'm not going to repeat the rest of what I've said for some time now - you can read it elsewhere.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

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SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
But, as I've mentioned SO many times before, we have to be careful that continuous whining does not get translated into non-historical cobblers and that works both ways.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

And of course we won`t get US planes in BOB, they`re in Russia cos they were in REAL LIFE, just like the Spitfire and Hurri. Neither do I want to see LA5s, Yaks or I16s flying over Britain.

Oleg would not be so silly.

I heard there will be an alternative `what if` EXTRA Campaign in BOB alongside the MAIN one, I could perhaps except these things in that...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/whinersend.jpg

adlabs6
07-21-2004, 09:47 AM
Then consider that BoB could take the path of the original IL2, and be patched into a mix of planes from '36 to '46. I would not have thought that what we have today would be possible when I bought first bought IL2.

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TugZooey
07-21-2004, 10:02 AM
a break...

hugs all around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

crazyivan1970
07-21-2004, 10:16 AM
The lock is near... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

TugZooey
07-21-2004, 10:28 AM
does anybody know who has the oldest registered date? I just noticed Ivan's was November 2001. I had one from March 2003 but forgot the call name and pw.

http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v221/milank/grab0002.png

Red_Storm
07-21-2004, 02:12 PM
Be amazed at my registration date. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993

TugZooey
07-21-2004, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
Be amazed at my registration date. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

---
http://www.albumsnaps.com/viewPhoto.php?id=42993 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif