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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:19 PM
are the French craft gonna be flyable?

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:19 PM
are the French craft gonna be flyable?

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:18 AM
Good stuff, theres not much detail to french aircraft over on the Il2center

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:25 AM
It's just a presumtion of mine, based on the fact that MS406 is already AI plane in FB, and was the most known French fighter during WW2.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:33 AM
Well, you talk about "historical facts", but the fact is that you don't know much....

French air force did score around 650 victories in 1940 before the defeat
RAF did score around 250 victories during the same period (which was pretty good considering the small amount of squadron involved)
All these planes missed badly to the German during the BoB
(this of course doesn't take anything away to the brilliant fighting of the RAF during the BoB)

Considering the amount of casualties the French army suffered before the defeat (more than 200.000), nobody can say they didn't fight.
Yes the command was bad (up to the highest hierarchy)
Yes the doctrine how to use the tanks and the airforce was obsolette... one war to late...
Yes the transmissions were very bad (mostly letters brought by motorcyclist, a few phone (using mostly the civilian network), no radio.
Yes the French didn't understood the Guderian plan and moves until it was too late (the high command begun to understant there was an attack thrue the ardennes around 1 week after it started.
Still it's a proof of ignorance and unrespect to the many soldiers who died to say they didn't fought.... especially with the airforce that fought up to the capitulation, even if they had to change airbase each night...

I have myself a profound respect for all the soldiers who fought and die for liberty, the GIs of course, but also all the others

I can't blame you... ignorance is everywhere (in France also), that the reason for such bad jokes.
I just hope it give you the will to learn a bit about history.

and also, yes France did developp new planes that were able to compete with Germans ones... Dewoitine D520 was one. It just came a bit too late to be available in good amount (but still fought with good results)
Britain had the spitfire... but how many before the French defeat saw action?... hopefully for them they had a bit more time to prepare their defense than France had.

Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?


Message Edited on 06/22/0312:38AM by pegase_rama

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:37 AM
Don't know why the topic had to degenerate like this. I for one would like to see the French planes in the sim--it would add to the Finnish campaign.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:02 AM
Thanks for the history lesson but do yow know how strict was the French confirming procedure????
You don't!
I'l give you an example wich initialy was given by...PIRRE CLOSTERMANN:
Quote: "In may-june1940 Martin La Meslee, is credited with only 5 individual kills, the others being in cooperation wiyh 5,6,8,even9 pilots,EACH ONE OF THEM CREDITED WITH A VICTORY, even if they didn't fired a single bullet!In conclusion, for a single plane shot down, they had more sure(confirmed-my note)kills.In RAF there were only individual kills[...].
If we would count my kills in the same way as they were in 1940, assing those obtained protecting Martell, Mouchotte, Fairbanks,Boudier,Hibbert etc, I would had at least 50. Let's be serious!"
If you deny the fact that Clostermann didn't knew history, then ...
As a fact, and takeing care about what is wrote above,in France ,in the first day of the German offensive, RAF lost 36 planes, reporting 60 aircraft shot down and other22 damaged. Addind another 16 probable, and reducing with any percent a number anyway dificile to controle, there are still more airplanes then those shot down by the french in that day.
I did not and I will never say that the French troops didnt fought, it would be an absolute lie, they fouth very brave , but all i was saying was that they didn't do all that they could(moslty due to the High command).
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:31 AM
Any veteran I have personally spoke to or have read about that has fought alongside the French in 1914 - 1918 or 1939 - 1945 has nothing but praise for not only the bravery but the tenacity of your countrymen.

(I'm an Australian).

Please also be aware that the head-up-bottom ignorance displayed by some US citizens is not representative of the entire country. Sadly the US gets a bad name by a few big mouths.

- Ham



S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A (http://www.il2center.com/technika/)</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:21 AM
Niberto wrote:
Yeah, but we speak about plane destroyed and the
- figure are not the count of the personnal victories
- for each pilot.

- THE FIGURES ARE THE PLANE DESTROYED

And how you suppose they counted the planes dstroyed(?), in the situation that where today was a plane shot down on French teritorry, tomorow that territory was German?
The exact point here is that they could not actualy find the planes, they had to base on the pilot's word's, and This is the part where the confirmation procedure acts./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:32 AM
Ham wrote:
- Any veteran I have personally spoke to or have read
- about that has fought alongside the French in 1914 -
- 1918 or 1939 - 1945 has nothing but praise for not
- only the bravery but the tenacity of your
- countrymen.



Actually, from the WWII veterans that I know and have spoken too, they disliked many of the French. They found the citizens to be rude, and lets not forget the capitulation government (Vichy). The French citizens criticized the allied bombing of French cities, which was needed to destroy German garrisons in the cities. Ironically, the GI's liked the German citizens the best. They found them to be hard working, clean, and humble in defeat. Many GI's also felt the same way about the Dutch.

It's the soldier, not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech.
It's the soldier, not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate.
It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:45 AM
Nothing to say.

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 05:36 AM
Quit it guys, a legitimate request was made here.

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:48 AM
For HonorAboveSelf:

Your post sounds like it was taken straight from the start of chapter sixteen "Band of Brothers".

Your fore fathers saw one thing, mine saw another. My great uncle fought near Villers-Bretonneux. Do you know they still teach their children to remember Australia there. They sing our national anthem. I know there are similar situations for your country in France. Should we tar them all with the same brush?

Another thing to consider - while the wartime sentiment would be one of thanks, a post-war push for nations to conform with the political notions of another will cause problems. Sure to muddy the waters don't you think?

- Ham



S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A (http://www.il2center.com/technika/)</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:46 AM
i already know of two 3dmodels of french planes under work, potez 630 and breguet 690...

personnally i would like to have the dewoitine 520 of course, i think there was one also under work, but i'm not sure...

i would like too to have the caudron 714, that plane served in finland, it coule be interesting... If only i was a 3dmodeler, i would do it myself...

for the potez, a cockpit is likely to be made.... but i have heard nothing about a ms406 cockpit so far...

The curtiss hawk 75 saw action in france too, we'll see if the idea of making it pilotable make its way...

And for that honortruc guy, better he don't like france, at least we have a chance of never having to meet him there...

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:51 AM
Well, I would like to see flyable Ms.406/410 for sure! Cauldron I'm not too excited about as it was judged too weak for frontline use, and never fought.

I also think people are working on a cockpit for Hawk 75.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:58 AM
A question regarding WWII era French & Italian aircraft - I have read that many had the throttles arranged so that the fully aft position was maximum, fully forward minimum. Was this the case?

The Breguet 693 was like this for sure.

- Ham



S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A (http://www.il2center.com/technika/)</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 09:05 AM
It was the case with Fiat G.50 and Ms.406.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:42 PM
Check out Paul Richey's "Fighter pilot" for interesting info on the French campaigne- he gives a lot of information about how the British did in France, he also gives some insight into French planes and pilots and how they fared- its interesting stuff. Be great to get our hands on the MS 406 or the D520.
Yep i've read band of brothers as well- great read- more to it than just the little extract shown above- the author has written a similar book on the US bomber crews operating over Europe - those chaps had guts.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:53 PM
please to see moderators do their job

it was really a bad jok the guy made and i give a big thanks to pegase-rama for his answer

mine was deleted because of too much violence i think hehe i was very angry reading that ,his post was deleted too thanks

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:11 PM
Von_Zero wrote:
- Thanks for the history lesson but do yow know how
- strict was the French confirming procedure????
- You don't!

Von_Zero, I'm not talking about pilot claims and abour regiment confirmimng procedure... I'm talking about German losses...
did I tell the number of 1050 victories??? (that's the total of the claims, counting all shared victories as one victory - ie, 4 pilotes claimed a shared victory = one kill)
I did'nt.... everybody now knows this number is overevaluated, what I gave you is the actual number accepted by the French airforce historical reseach department... which is around 650 victory. If you compare this number with the 1100 losses of the German Luftwaffe during the French Campaign and the 250 victories of the RAF during the same period, this gives you 200 German aricraft lost for other reasons than air combat.

So I know about the French confirming procedure, I have close contact with French army historical reseach department, and I confirm the small history "lesson".

Again, you accuse me to be ignorant.... well....funny....


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:32 PM
HonorAboveSelf wrote:
- Actually, from the WWII veterans that I know and
- have spoken too, they disliked many of the French.
- They found the citizens to be rude, and lets not
- forget the capitulation government (Vichy). The
- French citizens criticized the allied bombing of
- French cities, which was needed to destroy German
- garrisons in the cities. Ironically, the GI's liked
- the German citizens the best. They found them to be
- hard working, clean, and humble in defeat. Many GI's
- also felt the same way about the Dutch.

Well... considering the number of weddings between GIs and French girls just after the war... some didn't found the French that "rude".
I have talked also to GIs vets, both in US and in France (lots of them retired in France South-East)... and they don't share the oppinion of the Vet's you talked to (this is plain normal, oppinions of Vets are as many as they are Vets.... from there to generalize, you must conduct an historical study.. and not just a few interviews)

You probably knows nothing about the Vichy regime, the resistance and all the internal fights that are up to today still hurtfull in some families.. so please don't talk about.
You also probably don't know that Free France participated in the Fights in North-Africa (with one division), in Italy (with 4 divisions), in France (with up to 8 divisions) and in Germany (with up to 15 divisions), that they were considered as efficient and courageous troops by all the allies... that some US divisions were under French command during the Alsace campaign (including a US army corps) and that the cooperation with them and the French troops they fought alongside was pretty good.

Now about the criticisization about US bombing... my grand-father was in Le Havre during US bombardment, that destroyed 3/4th of the town... and yes he did critisize the US for that... and what?
Everybody knows that war is war, and that US certainly conducted some unecessary bomardement among those that were necessary, if you analyse it from the command point of view, then you can't criticize, nothing is ever perfect and you can't win a war without breaking eggs, including where it's maybe not needed...(but generally you know that after the war, not during)
Know place yourself in the position of the guy under the bombardment, watching your 3/4 of your town destroyed and lots of your friends and familly menbers killed by this bombardment.... won't you have hard time accepting "it's only for your good"?
I don't say bombardment were not justified, just that if one of your brother is killed "by error" during a police operation, you will have hard time to accept it "as it".


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?


Message Edited on 06/22/0302:39PM by pegase_rama

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:11 PM
for people who didn t like french and critizise their action why do you think we have been in vistory side as same that russian,american and british for the germany and berlin cutting for example

it s a fact that american propaganda said to Gi's before D-day to be careful of french because of lot of things like french people are dirty or sly etc....

but remenber that Eisennower said that without french resistance the D-day never happen

my grand father,a french,was in 2 DB and was injured 3rd may 1945 on german road he had received the silver star and lot of french medal(croix de guerre,medaille militaire etc..) he lost an eye cause a german sniper he received that for his bravery:he was a simply 2nd class Gi.

he was driver in sherman,the fist sherman was exploded because of mines and he get out in reco for seeing mines but was hit by a sniper and lost his eyes on road to but he continue walking still he fall into the ground,he was close to death but still alive .

today my grandfather is 80 years old and please give more respect to french it s not like that french people are and will be.you american propaganda has nothing to do here please one day in you life read an history book.

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 07:28 PM
pegase_rama wrote:
- Yes the French didn't understood the Guderian plan
- and moves until it was too late (the high command
- begun to understant there was an attack thrue the
- ardennes around 1 week after it started.

just a small correction: it was the "Manstein-Plan" not Guderian-Plan



http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/luftcodes/ns_bf1100042_lugtcodes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:05 PM
stupid ppl from a simple question u degenerate it so much dam it, i think some flyable planes are in dev by 3rd party teams, but they may been death projects, who knows

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:22 PM
to answer the first question:
- MS406 cockpit is in development
- H75 plane anc cockpit also (not sure about pit)
- I've seen D520 early dev shots
- I also seen on Il2center a screenshot of the MB152 (not sure if this project is dead or alive)
- A team is working on Potez 633 (plane and cockpit)
- Toocool is working on Breguet 693

If all of them comes alive... we will have almost everything needed for the France campaign. (only maybe will be missed the Caudron C714 for the polish troops in France and some less important planes)


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:00 PM
pegase_rama wrote:
- to answer the first question:
-- MS406 cockpit is in development
-- H75 plane anc cockpit also (not sure about pit)
-- I've seen D520 early dev shots
-- I also seen on Il2center a screenshot of the MB152 (not sure if this project is dead or alive)
-- A team is working on Potez 633 (plane and cockpit)
-- Toocool is working on Breguet 693
-
True, to much degenaration, but personaly I don't think that all those planes will be in the first pach,or the second.., there should also be another planes to satisfie everyone, so The most probably is, as I said before, Ms406 and/or D520/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
When did I acused you of any ignorance???

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:50 PM
HonorAboveSelf wrote:
The
- French citizens criticized the allied bombing of
- French cities, which was needed to destroy German
- garrisons in the cities.



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif now that is strange isn´t it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:28 AM
Your post sounds like it was taken straight from the
- start of chapter sixteen "Band of Brothers".

Your right, Stephen Ambrose does talk about the GI's favorite and least favorite nations. Many of the WWII vets I have spoken to have shared similar feelings as those described in the book. I have not, however, met a soldier who served in the Netherlands, but from what I have read (not just in Band of Bro.), the GI's liked the Dutch citizens. As for the GI's marrying forign women, I would be curious to see the divorce rates on those weddings. I would suspect that the divorce rate would be high. (the short "dating" period before these weddings, the prospect of having to move to a new nation..."

It's the soldier, not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech.
It's the soldier, not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate.
It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:36 AM
Well, since this post is about French planes I'll say this: Hell yes! What idiot wouldn't want even more planes to fly. IL-2 is hands down the best flight sim out there! I'd also just like to reply to what nicli had to say. I agree with him, at first I thought that Sadaam must have WMD, but where are they? Maybe we'll find them and maybe we won't. (If we don't, many Americans and Europeans will feel lied to I'd be willing to bet.) However, this doesn't change what we did find, mass graves. Thousands of innocent Iraqis lost thier lives under Sadaam. Those that opposed this war and were aware of the oppression going on in that country, in my humble opinion, should hide their faces in shame. WMD's or not.

"Hans"

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:32 AM
What has Saddam and Iraq to do with french planes that will be or not in FB??????
You probbably think that Saddam wil surender, if the alies wil give him a P4 and FB?!?!?!!?!!!?!?
realy man....


"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:40 AM
Sorry the topic of discussion is something other than exactly what you want to talk about. How bout you start a post on "exactly what I want to talk about." Maybe if you'd read more closely you'd find that amidst the Sadaam and Iraq talk there is legitimate talk of FB.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:30 AM
chaps, this is Olegs Ready Room.
Thread is getting off topic.

If i remember correctly the MS406 in FB on the finnish side had new motors fixed to them making them more powerful than the original french planes which although very agile lacked power. I also read somewhere that the MS406 under carriage was extremely sturdy making it ideal for take off and landing from badly prepared temporary air fields- Be cool to have this feature in FB, if the Fins made use of it- The french had to as their air fields kept on being over run so the air crews kept swapping air fields to small makeshift ones.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:52 AM
Well since it went to off topic already.. I need some help with one of those french planes - H.75.

http://www.il2skins.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=326


I think I'm supposed to finish that one soon..

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:28 AM
i cant help but they look good!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:12 PM
Keep this on topic please

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:20 PM
This should be in GD,

http://www.il2center.com/Country.php?Country=France&IHeight=800

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