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adlabs6
09-15-2003, 06:20 AM
I can't find the answer to this question. I only wonder since I seem to have trouble running other software that says it does use T&L in hardware mode. FS2004 will freeze if I enable T&L, and UT2k3 demo will freeze the same way, every time, after one minute or so.

I tried enabling every possible setting in FB, and can not get the game to freeze like the T&L setting does in other games. My closest guess is that OpenGL's Perfect mode is the most likely to be similar, but still FB won't freeze in that mode.

Thanks for the info, and realise that I'm not an expert on these things, I was just wondering. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 09/24/0301:50AM by adlabs6

adlabs6
09-15-2003, 06:20 AM
I can't find the answer to this question. I only wonder since I seem to have trouble running other software that says it does use T&L in hardware mode. FS2004 will freeze if I enable T&L, and UT2k3 demo will freeze the same way, every time, after one minute or so.

I tried enabling every possible setting in FB, and can not get the game to freeze like the T&L setting does in other games. My closest guess is that OpenGL's Perfect mode is the most likely to be similar, but still FB won't freeze in that mode.

Thanks for the info, and realise that I'm not an expert on these things, I was just wondering. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 09/24/0301:50AM by adlabs6

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 06:25 AM
I would suspect it does (<-uninformed opinion).

I know FS2004 is DirectX based but which renderpath does UT2k3 use? Maybe the DX T&L implementation in those games is to blame.

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 10:22 AM
Yes it does.

Do you run the game in direct x or open gl modes. It sounds as though your open gl support is corrupted/inefficient.

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 10:25 PM
Hi guys - can you come back from planet zog

I can't understand a word

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ShadowHawk__
09-15-2003, 11:47 PM
Most anything uses hardware T&L now, so I'd suspect that it does, but don't hold me to that. Mind if I ask what kind of video card you're running?

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 11:53 PM
Opengl does not require T&L.

If u enable T&L in D3d however it is required.

What gfx card do u have???

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:03 AM
Xiolablu3 wrote:
- Opengl does not require T&L.
-
- If u enable T&L in D3d however it is required.
-
- What gfx card do u have???
-
-

HUH?

OpenGL certainly does use T&L!



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adlabs6
09-16-2003, 12:47 AM
Hi guys,

Sorry to be late back to my thread. I am running a Ti4200 128MB card.I use mainly OpenGL in FB, though my DX performance has been nice since I updated to 9.0a so I've used that for the last few days. I do not have freezes or crashes in either mode.

My trouble started when I installed my Ti4200. With my old Gf2MX, I could run my UT2k3 demo all night with out trouble. After the new card, it will freeze after a few seconds IN GAME. I can stay in the menu's all day and never have a problem, just one I load the level and it appears and moves for a couple of seconds, it freezes. Now FS2004 is the same way, with T&L enambed, I can use the menu's all day, but if I load a flight, after a few seconds of normal play, it freezes the same way.

Disabling T&L makes this problem go away.

I also have this problem with some of the nVidia tech demos, which will return an error message and freeze. I just wondered if FB was somehow different than these other softwares, since I can't get it to freeze, in any mode or resolution. There doesn't seem to be a specific "T&L" option in FB, so I couldn't be sure.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:58 AM
adlabs6 wrote:
- Hi guys,
-
- Sorry to be late back to my thread. I am running a
- Ti4200 128MB card.I use mainly OpenGL in FB, though
- my DX performance has been nice since I updated to
- 9.0a so I've used that for the last few days. I do
- not have freezes or crashes in either mode.
-
- My trouble started when I installed my Ti4200. With
- my old Gf2MX, I could run my UT2k3 demo all night
- with out trouble. After the new card, it will freeze
- after a few seconds IN GAME. I can stay in the
- menu's all day and never have a problem, just one I
- load the level and it appears and moves for a couple
- of seconds, it freezes. Now FS2004 is the same way,
- with T&L enambed, I can use the menu's all day, but
- if I load a flight, after a few seconds of normal
- play, it freezes the same way.
-
- Disabling T&L makes this problem go away.
-
- I also have this problem with some of the nVidia
- tech demos, which will return an error message and
- freeze. I just wondered if FB was somehow different
- than these other softwares, since I can't get it to
- freeze, in any mode or resolution. There doesn't
- seem to be a specific "T&L" option in FB, so I
- couldn't be sure.


You'll find that maybe your AGP settings in the bios is wrong or you have incorrect settings enabled. If the new card is AGP 8x compliant and so is your motherboard set it to accept AGP 8x speeds. Also disable video shadowing etc.. in the bios as well as it's not necessary witha lot of cards.

The Ti4200 is a beautiful card to probably nVidias best card so far, it's smooth, powerful and very easy to overclock. You can also try to download a geforce tweaker/manager from a fansite somewhere and it may help you find and set a lot more options on the card then you knew existed.
When you install a new card as well, make sure you uninstall the old drivers first or you can get some nasty software corruption happening. Another option is to see if the card works under direct x diagnosits - in the run box under the start menu type dxdiag.exe. Select the graphics tab and run the 2d/3d Dx tests. If they fail, it may be time to get the card looked at professionally as it may be buggered.

Goodluck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

adlabs6
09-16-2003, 05:39 AM
Ok, well I've looked over the settings in the Bios, and changes to the AGP port speed and video shadow didn't help.

But... I then started messing around with the AGP aperature size. It was set at 64MB (128MB card, 416MB system) and by changing the size to 4MB, the freezes seem to have stopped! Unreal ran fine, and I closed it properly without a crash, and it even was fast with 4xFSAA and 2xAF. FS2004 did not crash with T&L enabled either.

Wow, for the first time I can enjoy my Ti4200 with the nice settings on! Thanks for the help guys!

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:27 AM
Somethings wrong there adlabs6.
The aperture size shouldn't be set so low,16mb min I think.
Read somewhere that 64mb is sufficient in most cases but 4mb sounds way to little.
Shadowing should not be enabled for the Ti's.
Try turning off sideband adressing and Agp Fastwrites if these are enabled,they are a common cause for unstable perfomance.

Good luck!

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:49 AM
By settings your AGP apeture size to 4mb, you have in fact disabled most AGP bells and whistles. Whatever problem with AGP texturing and the like that was causing your computer to hang is still very much there, you've just disabled the functionality that was tripping it off.

To be honest, problems like the ones your having can take a long time to track down to any one specific cause if you don't have any other gear to do testing with.

I'd "play" with your BIOS settings some more - if you could please post what kind of motherboard you have that'll narrow the advice you'll be given down a lot more. Also try installing a program called RivaTuner, which has several options to enable/disable AGP specific options on the fly. http://download.guru3d.com/rivatuner/ - please be sure to read all of the help sections in this program, and use the clickable question-mark help in the program to explain any settings you're unfamiliar with before playing with them :>


You might want to look at reinstalling your motherboards chipset drivers, depending on the motherboard you're using. Various flavours of VIA chipset motherboards, for example, are much more stable with certain numbered revisions of Via Hyperion/4in1 drivers than other revisions.

I'd also take a look at reinstalling your operating system entirely if I were you, should the RivaTuner and chipset drivers option fail to solve the problem.

You're not at a point where this is the only possibility left, yet, but to be honest it sounds to me like your computer is having problems with its memory, PSU, or possibly the card itself. Please check that you're running your computers RAM at conservative timings [higher = more stable, usually], and that you're not overclocking any components you shouldn't be.

Do you happen to know what the power output of your computers power supply is?


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:49 AM
PriK wrote:
-
- Xiolablu3 wrote:
-- Opengl does not require T&L.
--
-- If u enable T&L in D3d however it is required.
--
-- What gfx card do u have???
--
--
-
- HUH?
-
- OpenGL certainly does use T&L!
-
-
-
- <center><img
- src="http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jp
- g">


OpenGL USES T&L but it does not REQUIRE it. Read my post properly.

U can run ANY OpenGL game on a Kyro card which has no T&L engine. (Probably very slowly tho :P)

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:21 AM
Sure it does support it. Hardware T&L was introduced long time ago...even before GF3 was out.

==========
RAAF_Kuky

Message Edited on 09/16/0309:25PM by RAAF_Edin

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:35 AM
adlabs6 wrote:

- and it even was fast with 4xFSAA and 2xAF.

No way could this be so,as good as my old ti4200 (overclocked alot) was no way would it run with those settings and get a resonable FPS.Even my overclocked ti4600 would not run them smoothly.



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adlabs6
09-16-2003, 04:49 PM
Hi again, I am using a Soyo K7VTA Pro motherboard with a VIA chipset. I went last night and downloaded the newest Via Hyperion drivers, but the system crashed on the "Quick" install. In normal mode I did get the VxD driver to install successfully, but the freezing still happens if I raise the AAS above 4MB. I'll probably need to reinstall my OS to get past this.

I don't have the time to work on this problem right now. I'll just likely leave the AAS at 4MB until I can look at this more closely, as long as I won't damage my hardware by doing so.

pourshot wrote:
- No way could this be so,as good as my old ti4200
- (overclocked alot) was no way would it run with
- those settings and get a resonable FPS.Even my
- overclocked ti4600 would not run them smoothly.

I don't know what you mean by "smoothly", but I am getting +/-30fps without any trouble. Here's a UT2k3 screen I took with FRAPS, 1024x768x32 all settings maximum, 4x FSAA and 4x AF, AGP aperature size set to 4MB in BIOS. None of my hardware is overclocked.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/ut.JPG



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:17 PM
I'd definitely give the Via 4-in-1 drivers version 4.40 a try with that board. When I owned a Abit KT7A motherboard, this was the only stable set I ever found that didn't give constant AGP related bluescreens. Any revision past 4.41 caused those kinds of problems, usually bluescreening but occasionally stalling out and displaying the last image rendered. Definitely give those a try.

You may find that the AGP Gart driver is corrupted - there are several ways to get rid of this, but it involves some experimentation and familiarity editing .inf files and the Windows driver cache, so I'm a bit put off writing an explanation of how to do it for a chipset I haven't owned for over a year now :>

I can't remember if the 4.40 drivers offer an option between a 'quick' or 'full' install, but if you have an option for the full install, do give that a try. Again, from memory, some of the 4-in-1 installation problems can be gotten around if you install the individual driver components manually. Some are available for download from Via's site [ http://www.via.com.tw ], and I seem to remember the 1.08 AGP driver being a known good one for the KT133A chipset.

Before you go too much further I'd suggest going to http://www.amdforums.com and asking in the Soyo forum [ http://www.amdforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=25 ] about the problems you're having. Please give them as much of the specifics of your PC as you can - CPU, memory speed and type, your power supply, specific brand of graphics card, the driver revision you're using, etc. Saying "T&L makes it crash" over there is unlikely to get a constructive response.

As a PS, it seems like UT2003 may not actually be drawing full detail textures from the looks of that screenshot, but I'm not sure which level that's from. Could explain your framerate at those detail/anisotropy levels :>


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Message Edited on 09/16/0304:26PM by clint-ruin

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:59 PM
I assume you have got the latest video drivers from nvidias webpage? They are 45.xx at the moment I think. If yours are old, I'd suggest updating these first.

-Si

adlabs6
09-23-2003, 08:41 PM
Just an update on this topic. (Sorry, the thread lost was WAY down in the list.)

I bit the bullet.

I formatted my harddrive, and installed WinXP Home. This was followed by the proper VIA 4n1, the nVidia DET 45.23, and other drivers needed. WinXP was then updated to SP1a. BIOS settings were optimized. So nice to have such a clean OS.

My Ti4200 still freezes if I run UT2k3 demo, or if I enable the hardware T&L settings on FS2k4.

I called PNY tech support, and they told me that my Ti4200 was no good, and gave me an RMA, and I sent it off. Three week turnaround they say, we'll see.

So I've been checking around, and find that AMD XP and MP processors have APG memory errors with some VIA chipsets under Win2k. Supposedly this is fixed under WinXP, I have no idea.

Sad thing is that my old PNY Gf-2 MX400 64MB card is freezing with UT and FS2k4, just like the Ti4200 was. The only way to stop this is to set the AGP aperature to 4MB. I also found that disabling the "AGP texturing" setting in the dxdiad.exe will allow gameplay to continue for three to five minutes before the same type of crash occurs.

Both cards can't be bad. Maybe I shouldn't have even RMA'ed my Ti4200. Several others I've spoken to are saying that often PNY is replacing defective Ti-4x00's with FX5200U or FX5600's, which is a step down IMO.

Anyway, I thought I'd update this thread, since I made significant effort to solve it with no luck. Oh, and FB still ran fine on my new XP setup, both with my Ti4200 and now on my Gf2. Apparently FB just isn't making some demands on my hardware that other software is. Strange.

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 11:35 PM
Hi Adlabs,

It completely slipped my mind, but yes, there is a hotfix for VIA AGP issues. If you're running Win2kSP3 or greater, I don't believe you actually need it. From memory, it was some kind of error in the memory range allocated to AGP texturing. Sorry - come from running networks where everything is slipstreamed before it's installed. I don't believe WinXP suffers from the problem, though, so I don't think this is the cause for you in this particular case.

If PNY are replacing your card with a 5600 then all is probably well, if a 5200 returns to you then you may be able to take it up with them and see about getting either another 4200 or a 5600 back. It's good of them to bite the bullet and allow you an RMA, but if you bought the card from a store then I would've seen about getting them to handle the RMA and hook you up with a replacement.

I'm curious as to which 4in1 drivers you're running - did you install the 4.40 version ? As I mentioned, I went through sheer hell trying to make my Abit KT7A run stably, until browsing various Via support forums clued me into the fact that the newer revisions of those drivers aren't always necessarily better.

You should also have a go at looking in RivaTuner's options, as there are several related to AGP compatability. It also allows you to switch 'problematic' options such as SideBandAddressing and FastWrites off. SBA isn't good for all that much extra performance, but it's great for making less-than-perfect AGP chipsets fall over.

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adlabs6
09-24-2003, 01:41 AM
I tried both the current VIA driver (4.49 I think) and then after you mentioned earlier version 4.40, I went to get that version. The only earlier version I found at VIA arena was 4.35 optimized for Win9x. This also didn't help (even though I was running Win9x at the time). Finally today by digging around archive download pages I have found the 4.40 download, but it's not from VIA's website. I'll give it a try tonight.

Also, my reading revealed that the 5600U is nearly comparable to the Ti4200. A 5200 or 5200U is not an equal replacement according to benchmarks I've read so far, so I'll take it up with them if I get a 5200 card.

Also, I'll give the RivaTuner a look, perhaps I'll have time tonight to work on this more.

Thanks

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adlabs6
09-24-2003, 02:46 AM
Ok, it looks like the problem is solved.

I searched on a few old file download servers until I found a VIA driver called v4.40 and though I was not wanting to use it since I wasn't sure of the source, I have installed it anyway.

Now all the freezes and crash to desktops are gone. Using my GeForce2MX (!), I ran UT2k3 long enough to win a bot match against 8 bots and closed with out a crash, all settings were on high. FB has gone from 14fps on my usual settings to 22fps. FS2k4 also runs with out crashes, and faster than before. My typical fps with these settings was 12 before I installed VIA v4.40. Screenshot of 20 minutes ago:

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/FS2k4_VIA440.JPG


Now the sad, final question... What are the odds that the PNY tech guy didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and that he told me my perfectly fine Ti4200 was ruined?

Should I call PNY *try* to cancel my RMA?

Thanks for the help guys. And a special thank you to clint-ruin. Great help man. I appreciate it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 09/24/0301:49AM by adlabs6

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:25 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
- I'd definitely give the Via 4-in-1 drivers version
- 4.40

Yep I had an Abit KT7 Raid if I went over 4.40 I had major problems.

You dont need to uninstall any of the 4n1 drivers simply overwright them with the older version.

That came straight from the mouth of an Abit Tech.

sounded scary but ive done it many times no problem...

Also reset your agp apature back to 256 or 128 and disable sidebanding and/or fastwrites also read your mobo user manual concerning the bios setup 1 wrong setting can give you lots of problems.

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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:50 PM
Hi Adlabs,

Unfortunately by submitting your card to the OEM rather than to a retail shop that you can walk up to and harrass, you've pretty much put the ball in their court.

Some OEMs have better turnarounds than others. Asus, for example, while usually being pretty good at the building gear and making it work side of things, have an infamously bad returns department and tech support staff.

I'd definitely make sure that I had a case ID number to go along with the RMA number, and that you give them a call every 2-3 days to see how far along it is. And write down what they tell you. They're not out to rip you off, or probably aren't, but you'd be surprised how easy it is for things to just get lost in the ether in large or understaffed companies.

You should also make them attach a note to your case noting that the customer will accept either a Ti4200 or Ti5600 in return and nothing else. They may or may not have the capability to do that [take the note] but at least you will then have something to beat them up with if you get back a 5200.

As a PS, it's very hard to diagnose the issue that you had - I'd had the exact same thing happen to me, and even I wasn't 100% certain that you had the same problem. The mysterious, intermittent fault is the nightmare of any support technician.


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adlabs6
09-24-2003, 05:18 PM
Sadly, the card was nearly six months old, and the retailer would not exchange the card. Dealing with PNY is my only exchange/replace option.

I have decided not to ask for my RMA to be canceled. I will accept a Ti4200 or FX5600 as a replacement. I have had trouble with my PC not booting from time to time on a cold boot. Researching messageboards has revealed that this is often a side effect of the PNY Ti4x00 card I had not fitting the AGP port fully. The problem is intermittent, and appears to vary with temperature inside the case. Posters on the message boards also indicated that this problem tends to worsen as the card ages. My GeForce 2MX card has not failed to boot once since I installed it, BTW. Clearly my Ti4200 was affected by this problem, and I was simply not aware of why my PC was failing to boot.

As far as I can tell, the PNY FX cards do not suffer from these problems. I would just as soon switch to the FX card if I can, in hopes of avoiding the possiblity of later hardware problems with the Ti4x00 line. I'd rather have the hope of stability than maximum speed, so I'll make that trade off if I can.



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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:18 PM
Hi guys,

This thread is a shining example of all that is good with this particular online community - folks are so willing to help others. Bravo to all concerned.

BobTuck.

P.S. Special mention and gold star to Clint-Ruin for his efforts above and beyond the call of duty! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:35 AM
Great reading & solving probs!


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adlabs6
09-25-2003, 08:07 AM
Mirtma wrote:
- Great reading & solving probs!

Indeed. I hope this thread can be useful to others needing help. Many thanks to every one who helps out.

Also, I recieved an email stating that PNY recieved my RMA today.

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