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pacmanate
09-19-2014, 05:59 PM
It seems from AC2 onwards, we are getting more ranged weapons, weapons that require less thinking to use on our part.

I miss AC2's poison blade basically. I just did a contract where I had to kill the target without being seen, however he also has guards following him. To get to him I actually USED social stealth. I blended in with a crowd that took me right by him, gave him a dose of poison as for people to still not see and then carried on with the crowd. He died and everyone was left confused.

Now lets take that scenario and apply it to other games where ranged weapons are in the poison blade isn't:

1. Poison Darts (ACB, ACR, AC4)
2. Crossbow (ACB, ACR)
3. Bow and Arrow (AC3)

Having these ranged weapons changes the ballgame and your approach. Take all the above 3 you don't even have to be on the same level as your target, you can be on a building and shoot them without being seen.

In my opinion this takes away so much thought from your approach. As apposed to having to analyse guard routes, when the target turns around, directions blend groups are going etc. You can just stand far away and be done with it.

Now here come the people that say "don't like it, don't use it". That wouldn't be a problem if I had the OPTION to use the poison blade. Since AC2 there has been no poison blade, only darts. I would much prefer it if the poison blade came back.as getting close to a target to kill them actually requires the use of social stealth.

Thoughts?

HiddenKiller612
09-19-2014, 06:04 PM
If you want to get technical, we've always had ranged weapons... Ala the throwing knife... since AC1. I have no problem with ranged weapons and prefer to have many options when it comes to taking out enemies and targets. Sometimes you simply can't reach an enemy when they are at a distance, without alerting guards...

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 06:09 PM
If you want to get technical, we've always had ranged weapons... Ala the throwing knife... since AC1. I have no problem with ranged weapons and prefer to have many options when it comes to taking out enemies and targets. Sometimes you simply can't reach an enemy when they are at a distance, without alerting guards...

We never had contracts that said don't be seen in AC1 either so it wasn't a problem?

Also the reason why in some of the later games why you can't reach targets at a distance is because the level designers deliberately place them like that. They want you to use the blowdarts in AC4, they said it in some video that every mission had thought out guard layouts.

Fatal-Feit
09-19-2014, 06:17 PM
Using poison was optional. AC:2 still had throwing knives, which were very OP and also effective. If the poison blade came back, we still have the phantom blade to deal with.

VitoAuditore
09-19-2014, 06:18 PM
I dont like ranged weapons either, but I never felt like it was really needed to use them. sure, they made the game alot easier but I personally have never found a guard that I couldnt kill with my hidden blade without alerting other guards. I understand your irritation tho, alot of people will use them in co-op. but as the single player goes, you should be able to do everything without ranged weapons.

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 06:23 PM
I guess the best solution to this is to actually make a game where those ranged weapons did not exist or weren’t commonly known and used. Because having a gun and instead choosing to get close and kill by sword will feel more like deliberately making the game difficult on yourself instead of having put in such a situation. There will be no challenge when you always know there’s an alternative. However, if we have a game in a much more distant past, in a nation where the use of bows and arrows is not so common or know, and instead use spears and of course no hidden gun, no pistols and no such similar gadgets will be much better.

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 06:31 PM
Using poison was optional. AC:2 still had throwing knives, which were very OP and also effective. If the poison blade came back, we still have the phantom blade to deal with.


I dont like ranged weapons either, but I never felt like it was really needed to use them. sure, they made the game alot easier but I personally have never found a guard that I couldnt kill with my hidden blade without alerting other guards. I understand your irritation tho, alot of people will use them in co-op. but as the single player goes, you should be able to do everything without ranged weapons.

But this is where we are limited again to having just the Hidden Blade as a close ranged weapon. It's not enough. The poison blade was great for making a sneaky entrance and exist. The hidden blade on its own alerts guards too quick now. I want more close ranged options.

Fatal-Feit
09-19-2014, 06:38 PM
But this is where we are limited again to having just the Hidden Blade as a close ranged weapon. It's not enough. The poison blade was great for making a sneaky entrance and exist. The hidden blade on its own alerts guards too quick now. I want more close ranged options.

Well, there's the rope dart. One of few best balanced mid/long range weapon, IMO.

You can pull guards closer to kill them stealthily without alerting others, hang them onto trees to lure guards, choke them from a higher platform, or pull down patrols on roof-tops.

JustPlainQuirky
09-19-2014, 06:51 PM
I think ranged weapons just need a good nerfing.

SHADOWGARVIN
09-19-2014, 07:23 PM
I have no problem with ranged weapons. You don't have to use them.

m4r-k7
09-19-2014, 07:25 PM
There has to be ranged weapons. I mean think about it. Imagine an assassin with only melee weapons...it just wouldn't happen, especially as assassins love the rooftops. Ubisoft just have to figure out a way to lower the effectiveness of ranged weapons. I would think the best way to do it is to limit the amount of ammo you are allowed. The only ranged weapons I like are throwing knives and the bow as they are weapons that I think an Assassin would have on them.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 07:31 PM
To be honest Ubi needs to put a stop to ranged weapons...it seems like every game they keep getting more overpowered with AC4 being absolutely ridiculous. Darts in general are absolutely overpowered and 4 guns basically meaning 4 kills is a little too much.

The obvious choice would be to nerf the guns and darts. The not so obvious choice which is the one I want is making the next AC game in an ancient era :P

m4r-k7
09-19-2014, 07:33 PM
To be honest Ubi needs to put a stop to ranged weapons...it seems like every game they keep getting more overpowered with AC4 being absolutely ridiculous. Darts in general are absolutely overpowered and 4 guns basically meaning 4 kills is a little too much.

I thought the darts in AC 4 were under powered... I mean you could sleep people, but it would have a time limit. The berserk darts were useful, but they werent as overpowered as the poison gun darts in AC Brotherhood. The guns on the other hand were definitely overpowered, but they had to be to keep the game realistic.

Megas_Doux
09-19-2014, 07:35 PM
The bow just plain stinks thanks to the broken detection, whereas the crossbow and blowpipe are way too overpowered. I just dont use it.....

Landruner
09-19-2014, 07:35 PM
It seems from AC2 onwards, we are getting more ranged weapons, weapons that require less thinking to use on our part.

I miss AC2's poison blade basically. I just did a contract where I had to kill the target without being seen, however he also has guards following him. To get to him I actually USED social stealth. I blended in with a crowd that took me right by him, gave him a dose of poison as for people to still not see and then carried on with the crowd. He died and everyone was left confused.

Now lets take that scenario and apply it to other games where ranged weapons are in the poison blade isn't:

1. Poison Darts (ACB, ACR, AC4)
2. Crossbow (ACB, ACR)
3. Bow and Arrow (AC3)

Having these ranged weapons changes the ballgame and your approach. Take all the above 3 you don't even have to be on the same level as your target, you can be on a building and shoot them without being seen.

In my opinion this takes away so much thought from your approach. As apposed to having to analyse guard routes, when the target turns around, directions blend groups are going etc. You can just stand far away and be done with it.

Now here come the people that say "don't like it, don't use it". That wouldn't be a problem if I had the OPTION to use the poison blade. Since AC2 there has been no poison blade, only darts. I would much prefer it if the poison blade came back.as getting close to a target to kill them actually requires the use of social stealth.

Thoughts?

I some kind of agree and disagree with you for the following:

In my opinion it is not really the problem to have those ranged weapons, the problem is the way the game(s) make the player to use them -

For Example: In some stealth games players won't use such weapon because the AI of the foes would react at the view of a colleague getting hit by a ranged weapon, and the players has to re-consider a better or a different approach - in assassin creed games in general it does not really affect them.
I believe than AC3 and AC4 are the more vivid example of what I tried to explain above.

SpiritOfNevaeh
09-19-2014, 07:44 PM
I don't mind the ranged weapons.

I mostly use them for a target I can't reach or for fun afterwards :)

gnosis_guyver1
09-19-2014, 07:45 PM
Ranged are necessity in places where blades just don't reach. plus shows assassins adaptability to ever changing combat. Remember altair was yhe one who decided to get rid many things al mualim preached about but that made the new assassin order powerful.

GunnerGalactico
09-19-2014, 07:51 PM
I don't really mind ranged or projectile weapons in whatever shape or form. As long as it has a practical use and does damage from a distance, then I will use it. I find ranged weapons to be quite useful for eliminating guards on the rooftops and depending on which one you are using, you can kill guards quickly and silently.

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 08:13 PM
I have no problem with ranged weapons. You don't have to use them.

Firstly, thanks for reading the following.




Now here come the people that say "don't like it, don't use it". That wouldn't be a problem if I had the OPTION to use the poison blade. Since AC2 there has been no poison blade, only darts. I would much prefer it if the poison blade came back.as getting close to a target to kill them actually requires the use of social stealth.





There has to be ranged weapons. I mean think about it. Imagine an assassin with only melee weapons...it just wouldn't happen, especially as assassins love the rooftops. Ubisoft just have to figure out a way to lower the effectiveness of ranged weapons. I would think the best way to do it is to limit the amount of ammo you are allowed. The only ranged weapons I like are throwing knives and the bow as they are weapons that I think an Assassin would have on them.

That isn't my problem. I have no problem with ranged weapons, I have a problem with how that seems to be the focus these days and how they are replacing ways to get close to your target.

The problem is that there now seems to be a focus on killing your targets from a distance, there are more ranged options than close.

Ureh
09-19-2014, 08:21 PM
@pacmanate I'm pretty sure ACB/R give us both options: to use the poison blade and/or the poison dart.

Shahkulu101
09-19-2014, 08:21 PM
I agree that they should be made a bit less OP. Make ALL ranged weapons free-aim and remove the quickfire option - also make aiming a little harder since Assassin's aren't trained marksman.

In other words, get rid of the broken AC method of using ranged weapons and adopt a sensible approach. I mean isn't everything just a bit too easy?

Fatal-Feit
09-19-2014, 08:28 PM
To be honest Ubi needs to put a stop to ranged weapons...it seems like every game they keep getting more overpowered with AC4 being absolutely ridiculous. Darts in general are absolutely overpowered and 4 guns basically meaning 4 kills is a little too much.

The obvious choice would be to nerf the guns and darts. The not so obvious choice which is the one I want is making the next AC game in an ancient era :P

I partially disagree. Range weapons have been overpowered and needs an overhaul, but AC:3 and AC:IV's are not worse than the Ezio Trilogy.

You can silently kill 3 or 4 guards in one shot with throwing knifes, and you wouldn't have to reload. Also, the hidden pistol is more efficient than four pistols.

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 08:30 PM
I agree that they should be made a bit less OP. Make ALL ranged weapons free-aim and remove the quickfire option - also make aiming a little harder since Assassin's aren't trained marksman.

In other words, get rid of the broken AC method of using ranged weapons and adopt a sensible approach. I mean isn't everything just a bit too easy?

Exactly my point all these things can be used to kill from a distance:

1. Throwing Knives
2. Blowdarts
3. Bow and Arrow
4. Guns
5. Blowrifle
6. Bombs
7. Rope Dart
8. Phantom Blade
9. Crossbow

Close Range:

1. Hidden Blade
2. Poison Blade (AC2 only)

Its really a shame that they seem to be only focusing on new ways to get ranged kills without the need to get close to your target. It renders social stealth a bit pointless and you don't have to think that much about getting close to your target anymore, just about getting to a vantage point.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 08:37 PM
I partially disagree. Range weapons have been overpowered and needs an overhaul, but AC:3 and AC:IV's are not worse than the Ezio Trilogy.

You can silently kill 3 or 4 guards in one shot with throwing knifes, and you wouldn't have to reload. Also, the hidden pistol is more efficient than four pistols.

I disagree but besides us disagreeing what it is a fact is that the approach to ranged weapons has not been optimal. In my honest opinion only in AC ranged weapons did not feel overpowered. As some already pointed out we definitely need a more sensitive approach.



Its really a shame that they seem to be only focusing on new ways to get ranged kills without the need to get close to your target. It renders social stealth a bit pointless and you don't have to think that much about getting close to your target anymore, just about getting to a vantage point.

Agreed. There should be more focus on hidden blade variants, how to approach to a targets with a close range weapon and more close ranged weapons that give more versatility to combat and also assassination. To be honest even planting traps or for example leaving a snake in a dark alley (in an ancient era of course) would be cooler approaches than going to the advantage point and shoot.

Ureh
09-19-2014, 08:47 PM
Exactly my point all these things can be used to kill from a distance:

1. Throwing Knives
2. Blowdarts
3. Bow and Arrow
4. Guns
5. Blowrifle
6. Bombs
7. Rope Dart
8. Phantom Blade
9. Crossbow

Close Range:

1. Hidden Blade
2. Poison Blade (AC2 only)

Its really a shame that they seem to be only focusing on new ways to get ranged kills without the need to get close to your target. It renders social stealth a bit pointless and you don't have to think that much about getting close to your target anymore, just about getting to a vantage point.

Poison blades were still around in ACB/R, right? Pretty sure they still worked the same as the one in AC2, except B/R aslo gave us the option to shoot them as darts.

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 08:50 PM
Poison blades were still around in ACB/R, right? Pretty sure they still worked the same as the one in AC2, except B/R aslo gave us the option to shoot them as darts.

Ah yes, my mistake. Oh well, point still stands.

Fatal-Feit
09-19-2014, 09:00 PM
how to approach to a targets with a close range weapon and more close ranged weapons that give more versatility to combat and also assassination. To be honest even planting traps or for example leaving a snake in a dark alley (in an ancient era of course) would be cooler approaches than going to the advantage point and shoot.

Rope Darts.

DumbGamerTag94
09-19-2014, 09:22 PM
What part of being an Assassin has to do with getting up close and stabbing a guy????? I'm pretty sure an assassin is defined as someone who assassinates people....not a guy who wears white hoods and stabs people only.

I mean sure there's the "blade in the crowd" thing but that is just so that you're not spotted before assassinating the target. Besides "a skilled assassin ensures his work is noticed by the many". The "blade in the crowd" saying just means death hiding in plain sight. It just sounds better than "a weapon in the crowd".

It doesn't ****ing matter if I stab my target or I unload four rounds into his chest. As long as he doesn't see me before hand I'm still a blade in the crowd and he is assassinated.

It's optional to use ranged weapons anyway. If you want a bigger challenge then use the damn hidden blade nobody is stopping you. I don't get this mentality of "I don't like x weapon or I don't use y feature....therefore they should get rid of it". That's fine you don't have to. But you also don't have to use it either so get the **** over it.

I should be able to kill my target whatever way I choose as long as he ends up dead or I'm not killed/discovered by guards before he dies. I don't want to be told I have to stab him. I like options.

If I feel like sending a message by pumping him full of bullets in public. Then I will. And if I want to be subtle with a quiet hidden blade kill I will. It's not your place to tell me otherwise.

That's why I like the AMM mission system for ACU and that it's still the 18th century(due to the large weapon variety that offers). I can choose how, with what weapon, and in what way I want to assassinate my target.

Hans684
09-19-2014, 09:43 PM
Depends on the weapon, user and creativity.

SHADOWGARVIN
09-19-2014, 09:54 PM
Firstly, thanks for reading the following.

You're welcome.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 09:59 PM
What part of being an Assassin has to do with getting up close and stabbing a guy????? I'm pretty sure an assassin is defined as someone who assassinates people....not a guy who wears white hoods and stabs people only.

I mean sure there's the "blade in the crowd" thing but that is just so that you're not spotted before assassinating the target. Besides "a skilled assassin ensures his work is noticed by the many". The "blade in the crowd" saying just means death hiding in plain sight. It just sounds better than "a weapon in the crowd".

It doesn't ****ing matter if I stab my target or I unload four rounds into his chest. As long as he doesn't see me before hand I'm still a blade in the crowd and he is assassinated.

It's optional to use ranged weapons anyway. If you want a bigger challenge then use the damn hidden blade nobody is stopping you. I don't get this mentality of "I don't like x weapon or I don't use y feature....therefore they should get rid of it". That's fine you don't have to. But you also don't have to use it either so get the **** over it.

I should be able to kill my target whatever way I choose as long as he ends up dead or I'm not killed/discovered by guards before he dies. I don't want to be told I have to stab him. I like options.

If I feel like sending a message by pumping him full of bullets in public. Then I will. And if I want to be subtle with a quiet hidden blade kill I will. It's not your place to tell me otherwise.

That's why I like the AMM mission system for ACU and that it's still the 18th century(due to the large weapon variety that offers). I can choose how, with what weapon, and in what way I want to assassinate my target.

Do you always get so worked up about everything in life? Jesus...

Basically nothing of what you said is relevant to the topic...nobody is trying to force you to kill in some specific way...

DumbGamerTag94
09-19-2014, 10:01 PM
But you're griping about how "ranged weapons are RUINING AC games". You pretty much are saying they shouldn't be there. Saying blades are the only way to go. Eliminating those options and saying they ruin the game. IS trying to tell me what to do.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 11:08 PM
But you're griping about how "ranged weapons are RUINING AC games". You pretty much are saying they shouldn't be there. Saying blades are the only way to go. Eliminating those options and saying they ruin the game. IS trying to tell me what to do.

Nobody said they are ruining the games...just that they need a nerf...because of everything we mentioned in the post it ruins part of the close assassination experience.

Btw...putting f words does not make your argument stronger ;)

DumbGamerTag94
09-19-2014, 11:11 PM
Nobody said they are ruining the games...just that they need a nerf...because of everything we mentioned in the post it ruins part of the close assassination experience.

Btw...putting f words does not make your argument stronger ;)

The f words are due to my extreme frustration and annoyance with this subject. Not to make my argument stronger. It's to emphasize how stupid and farcical this is.

And nobody said they are ruining the series??? Did you read the title of the thread????

Also see no way how ranged weapons ruin the close assassinations.....
They literally are two separate things. You don't have to use either exclusively.

And if you are too tempted by guns or throwing knives that you don't use the blade. Then you obviously don't like the blade that much anyway. And your problem wouldn't be ranged weapons. It would be personal laziness and lack of creativity.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 11:33 PM
The f words are due to my extreme frustration and annoyance with this subject. Not to make my argument stronger. It's to emphasize how stupid and farcical this is.

Still, no need ;)


And nobody said they are ruining the series??? Did you read the title of the thread????

Did you actually read the replies or just saw the title and replied? The title is dramatic, it is just that.


Also see no way how ranged weapons ruin the close assassinations.....
They literally are two separate things. You don't have to use either exclusively.

And if you are too tempted by guns or throwing knives that you don't use the blade. Then you obviously don't like the blade that much anyway. And your problem wouldn't be ranged weapons.

I would like to use both in a non broken way.


It would be personal laziness and lack of creativity.
How? That is exactly the exact opposite of what we are saying...

DumbGamerTag94
09-20-2014, 12:09 AM
There exist many weapons to kill someone with close range/blades.

There are:
Tomahawks
Swords
Hidden blade
Axes
Dagger(Ezio and Altaïr)
Spear(pick up in Ezio's games and playable in ACU)
Halberd
Bayonet

There are all of these bladed weapons in the series. There's infinite possibilities to kill someone creatively using those. Yet all I ever hear is "ranged weapons suck" "we need to get rid of guns". Seriously with all of those options you can't kill with a blade because the presence of a ranged weapon or gun is too tempting to just hit and run?

Honestly it's just harder to do with a blade(just like real life). If you are upset that it's too hard. Or that it's just much easier to shoot them. Then you're problem isn't the ranged weapons. It's your laziness and unwillingness to utilize the literally EVERY type of bladed weapon known to man. Nobody is there forcing anyone to use guns or throwing knives. There is plenty of opportunity to use blades for every kill if you so desire. If you are upset because you would rather use a gun or dart in certain scenarios. That's 100% your fault. Nobody is forcing you. You are just being lazy.

Kakuzu745
09-20-2014, 12:34 AM
There exist many weapons to kill someone with close range/blades.

There are:
Tomahawks
Swords
Hidden blade
Axes
Dagger(Ezio and Altaïr)
Spear(pick up in Ezio's games and playable in ACU)
Halberd
Bayonet

There are all of these bladed weapons in the series. There's infinite possibilities to kill someone creatively using those. Yet all I ever hear is "ranged weapons suck" "we need to get rid of guns". Seriously with all of those options you can't kill with a blade because the presence of a ranged weapon or gun is too tempting to just hit and run?

Honestly it's just harder to do with a blade(just like real life). If you are upset that it's too hard. Or that it's just much easier to shoot them. Then you're problem isn't the ranged weapons. It's your laziness and unwillingness to utilize the literally EVERY type of bladed weapon known to man. Nobody is there forcing anyone to use guns or throwing knives. There is plenty of opportunity to use blades for every kill if you so desire. If you are upset because you would rather use a gun or dart in certain scenarios. That's 100% your fault. Nobody is forcing you. You are just being lazy.

So...you did not read the thread...that is cool. Whenever you do you will notice people are proposing nerfs or changes to the detection system, then you can start an argument.

Locopells
09-20-2014, 12:40 AM
then you can start an argument.

Better still, don't. Keep it cool everyone...

DumbGamerTag94
09-20-2014, 12:55 AM
So...you did not read the thread...that is cool. Whenever you do you will notice people are proposing nerfs or changes to the detection system, then you can start an argument.

I read the thread.....most people seem to say the solution is to to a time where these weapons don't exist. And some references here or there to nerfing.

But what I am trying to say is I don't understand why you would need to nerf?

Guns in the 18th century had very large lead bullets. A marksman with good aim could easily hit someone in the vitals or the head. Killing them instantly or vitally wounding them to the point they would no longer be fighting(I can shoot and kill a deer in one shot with one with it hitting the ground on impact)
As for darts they weren't over powered your target either temporarily falls asleep or is poisoned flailing around and causing an alert among guards.
Crossbows are also extremely powerful and kill in one hit(i personally have hunted with one)
The only ranged weapon that isn't realistically powered is the throwing knives which for some reason are one hit kill and practically infinite(AC4 did this right by giving you just one and it was a big knife that would wedge itself in the guys head) so all signs point to that particular weapon being eliminated or fixed.

The only weapon that was broken was the bow which I will admit sucked and was practically worthless

I just don't understand what you are trying to say. They aren't overpowered(if you've ever used any of them in real life)except for the throwing knives(which aren't really a thing anymore.). So there's nothing to nerf.

And if you feel that they take away the thought from the game or that it's just too much easier to use them. Then just don't use them. I don't get this "I don't like a feature/weapon"=it must go mentality.
If you want challenge then go all blades. If you want extra strategy or planning use blades. If you can't control yourself long enough not to go on a shooting spree then that's a personal problem.

Kakuzu745
09-20-2014, 12:56 AM
Better still, don't. Keep it cool everyone...

Ya, let me rephrase that to a "healthy discussion" ;)

DumbGamerTag94
09-20-2014, 01:00 AM
Ya, let me rephrase that to a "healthy discussion" ;)

Yes exactly it's nothing personal it's just "healthy discussion". :)

Jackdaw951
09-22-2014, 03:04 PM
I thought the darts in AC 4 were under powered... I mean you could sleep people, but it would have a time limit. The berserk darts were useful, but they werent as overpowered as the poison gun darts in AC Brotherhood. The guns on the other hand were definitely overpowered, but they had to be to keep the game realistic.

I actually liked the sleep darts because of that. You can silence someone for a limited time, then you have to get to them stealthily and put their lights out permanently, or they'll wake up and raise a ruckus. The berserk darts, though, yeah, they're OP--especially if you don't "upgrade" the berserk timer. (I only upped it the first playthrough, then I caught on.) The tagged guard will go on a short rampage against his nearby associates, then drop dead. Win-win, too easily.

Edit: To round out the topic of ranged weapons in AC4, the pistols are single shot, as they should be, several are carried, as was customary for pirate captains at the time (due to being single-shot and not always reliable) and they are LOUD! as they should be. No hope of stealth if you pull one of these out. To make them more realistic, I would have them occasionally misfire, and I would remove the undetected money bonus from assassination missions, unless no guards hear the shot. But I would certainly not eliminate them from this time period or setting.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:52 PM
Actually misfires in flintlock guns weren't actually as common as people think. Generally they would fire every time. Unless there were an error on the part of the shooter(like half cocking the weapon instead if a full ****). Or you got your powder wet.

So for realisms sake I would say that if you just dove into the water and climbed aboard an enemy ship. Your pistols should have been unusable as the powder would be soaked. And if you were in heavy rains like a hurricane with rogue waves and such. Then your pistols should have a probability of misfire. Perhaps 1/4 doesn't go off or something.

But as for clear skies and not falling in the water. They should all go off without a hitch.

Jackdaw951
09-22-2014, 04:11 PM
Actually misfires in flintlock guns weren't actually as common as people think. Generally they would fire every time. Unless there were an error on the part of the shooter(like half cocking the weapon instead if a full ****). Or you got your powder wet.

So for realisms sake I would say that if you just dove into the water and climbed aboard an enemy ship. Your pistols should have been unusable as the powder would be soaked. And if you were in heavy rains like a hurricane with rogue waves and such. Then your pistols should have a probability of misfire. Perhaps 1/4 doesn't go off or something.

But as for clear skies and not falling in the water. They should all go off without a hitch.

Your comment made me curious, so I did a bit of reading. I found this:


Flintlocks were prone to many problems, compared to modern weapons. Misfires were common. The flint had to be properly maintained, as a dull or poorly napped piece of flint would not make as much of a spark and would increase the misfire rate dramatically. Moisture was a problem, since moisture on the frizzen or damp powder would prevent the weapon from firing. This meant that flintlock weapons could not be used in rainy or damp weather. Some armies attempted to remedy this by using a leather cover over the lock mechanism, but this proved to have only limited success.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock

. . . but I also found this:


Are flintlocks reliable?
Yes, nearly as much as percussion under all circumstances. It does take some learning of the basic needs of this particular type, but there's no reason a flintlock shouldn't fire essentially every time the trigger is pulled.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/flintlockfaq.html#04

Perhaps modern-day flintlocks are much more reliable than their 18th-century counterparts? I don't know enough about it to be sure, having no experience with either. Regardless, misfires seem to have been a common occurrence when these weapons were in combat use. A game like AC probably doesn't have the scope to delve into things like wet powder or the state of the flint. Random occasional misfires is as realistic as it's bound to get.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 05:58 PM
@Jackdaw951

No worries. I'll help clear this up for you.

Your blurb there describes the common things that would cause misfires. And it is correct. However......

Maintaining your flint falls under the category of user error. Just the same as not fully cocking the weapon. A flint lock works by striking a stone against a frizzen(metal plate) to create a spark and light powder. So if that flint stone chips away it may become too short to come in contact with the frizzen. Meaning no spark. Also if it is not properly "napped"(meaning pinched in the hammer with a screw mechanism bundling cloth around the flint to create a very tight and stable hold). Then the flint could just fly out.

Those kinds of things are user errors. The kinds of things a capable wielder would never have to worry about. It's basically incompetence for this kind of thing to occur. The same way a person who knows nothing about modern guns is more likely to shoot themselves in the foot by accident or jam their weapon.

Seeing that Edward was a veteran privateer(and pirates were known for enforcing meticulous care of their weapons) I highly doubt these would be things he would allow to occur being a well versed and capable captain. Same goes with Connor. His frontier background, and most likely weapons training under Achilles would prevent him from making such mistakes. These issues could happen unintentionally on the battlefield. But no soldier went into battle with these issues. It could have occurred over the course of firing 40-70 rounds in line formations reloading constantly though. But seeing that Connor and Ed typically only fire their pistols each 1 time and don't reload until out of combat. It wouldn't be a problem of theirs.

As for the water thing. Yes this was/is the killer for flintlocks. However the open pan and leather deal is more of a 1600s issue. That was resolved by the 1700s. With the addition of the frizzen creating a lid over the flash pan. This works by filling a pan beneith the frizzen with powder. Then closing the lid/frizzen over the top. This keeps the powder dry. Then when the flint strikes the frizzen the lid flys open igniting the dry powder. Firing the weapon no problem.

Now the problem here would be that each time the pan opens it is exposed to rain. Making the chance of misfire increase exponentially after each shot due to more mosture getting in. So you would then need to dry your pan if it became to wet. This was a problem on battlefields. And it did largely increase the likihood of misfires but didn't render them useless. They could still maintain a battle in the rain by the 1700s. However this was not desirable by generals. Especially when on the defensive. But even in said conditions an experienced soldier/gun handler would be able to maintain firing. With misfires possibly occurring after 3-4 shots. But likely not occurring with vigilance and slower rate of fire.

And since Connor and Ed typically aren't reloading their guns a ton of times in the rain they would be guaranteed a clean first shot out of their weapons assuming each of eds pistols were loaded prior to action.

So really the only issue with flintlock reliability in AC would realistically be Swimming. As most other things are an issue of caring for your weapon(and as assassins/pirates they should be good in that department).

As for modern flintlock guns there is extremely little difference between the tech in one made today and in the 1700s. Not to be confused with In line muzzle loaders or percussion muzzle loaders which are more modern and a different style of gun.

I've shot flint locks many times myself including in the rain(when hunting). And I've never had a misfire ever.

The idea that they are unreliable is a relative term when comparing them to say self contained bullets of today. But they were extremely reliable in capable hands. Then just as today. You had to know what you were doing with a gun.

Hope this helped clear things up. And if you need a visual to see how the mechanisms work just look for a slow motion video of firing a flintlock.

Sesheenku
09-22-2014, 06:49 PM
Meh, as they've said plenty of times before it's the path of least resistance. You don't necessarily have to take it though.

Personally I don't care, the games were never difficult and adding a stronger version of throwing knives was nothing new.

Fatal-Feit
09-22-2014, 07:19 PM
adding a stronger version of throwing knives was nothing new.

If you're referring to the Phantom Blade, it's more of a nerfed version than anything.

m4r-k7
09-22-2014, 07:25 PM
Lol and now they have added the Guillotine Gun on the DLC... great.... thank you for giving us a new gun that I am not going to use

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 07:28 PM
What exactly is the guillotine gun anyway? Is it a blunderbuss or what? I can't tell what it is. But it looked stupid

pacmanate
09-22-2014, 08:35 PM
What exactly is the guillotine gun anyway? Is it a blunderbuss or what? I can't tell what it is. But it looked stupid

Blunderbuss that fires explosive rounds and that also has a massive spear on the end.

Hans684
09-22-2014, 09:13 PM
Blunderbuss that fires explosive rounds and that also has a massive spear on the end.

Adéwalé would be jealous.

pacmanate
09-22-2014, 09:16 PM
Adéwalé would be jealous.

Wondering how Arno does a forward roll with that thing on his back. Will probably cut off his ponytail, thus making Arno lose his powers.

Hans684
09-22-2014, 09:18 PM
Wondering how Arno does a forward roll with that thing on his back. Will probably cut off his ponytail, thus making Arno lose his powers.

Properly just loose a few souls.

Kakuzu745
09-22-2014, 10:57 PM
To be honest that thing looks like a freaking Lancer from Gears of War.

Sesheenku
09-23-2014, 12:00 AM
If you're referring to the Phantom Blade, it's more of a nerfed version than anything.

Dude.... I'm talking about crossbows and the hidden gun....