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The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 06:57 AM
Do you care whether or not you get to play as a female character? I want to know.
Vote yes if you really care about the gender of the character and you are hoping to play as a female assassin in the future
Vote no if you don't really mind what gender your character is, it would be fine either way
Vote "I'm a doorknob" if you don't want Ubisoft to make a playable female assassin.

I personally couldn't care less, but I want to know what you guys think.

I'm not looking for replies, I'm looking for poll results. Feel free to comment if you wish, but as this is a rather touchy and controversial topic, you'll probably find that not everyone will welcome your opinion.



P.S.
I'm actually really impressed with these forums; I've only been visiting regularly for the past few weeks and I am glad to see how civil everyone is.

D.I.D.
09-19-2014, 07:10 AM
"Females". Really.

Yeah, I do. I care about diversity as a matter of inclusivity, but also for the quality of the games and their stories. If designers have to think about demographic range, maybe they'll be encouraged to make better characters too. Right now, they are really poorly formed.

LoyalACFan
09-19-2014, 07:22 AM
Poll is a bit deceptively worded, but I'm voting yes. I'm not going to scream and cry until it happens, but I do actively seek out games starring women just as a change of pace. Over the last couple of years I've seen rumors of many different film adaptations of video games, and you know who fans ALWAYS nominate to star in them? Josh Brolin. Now, I don't have anything against Brolin, I think he's a really good actor, but the fact that he's ALWAYS the top pick shows you just how homogenous and similar most AAA game protagonists are. Pretty much every single popular game character (e.g. Nathan Drake, John Marston, Cole MacGrath, Solid Snake, Joel from TLOU, Desmond Miles, Booker from Bioshock, hell, even Kratos) could be played perfectly by Josh Brolin. It's time for a bit of a change IMO. Shao Jun FTW.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 07:32 AM
Poll is a bit deceptively worded, but I'm voting yes. I'm not going to scream and cry until it happens, but I do actively seek out games starring women just as a change of pace. Over the last couple of years I've seen rumors of many different film adaptations of video games, and you know who fans ALWAYS nominate to star in them? Josh Brolin. Now, I don't have anything against Brolin, I think he's a really good actor, but the fact that he's ALWAYS the top pick shows you just how homogenous and similar most AAA game protagonists are. Pretty much every single popular game character (e.g. Nathan Drake, John Marston, Cole MacGrath, Solid Snake, Joel from TLOU, Desmond Miles, Booker from Bioshock, hell, even Kratos) could be played perfectly by Josh Brolin. It's time for a bit of a change IMO. Shao Jun FTW.

Tell me how you find it deceptive and how to change it and I will do so.

I always saw Vin Diesel as Kratos.

D.I.D.
09-19-2014, 07:59 AM
Tell me how you find it deceptive and how to change it and I will do so.

I always saw Vin Diesel as Kratos.

It's deceptive because it's transparently weighted to encourage the "yes" vote to split and keep the "no" vote is high as possible. Everyone here will play any AC game regardless of whether the protagonists of the main titles remain a string of men, but by attaching that sentiment only to the "no" vote you won't get a totally accurate measure of positive feeling about changing this routine.

This language is dishonest, too:

"Do you care? Do you actually really truly care?"

You claim to be completely neutral, but your weary tone betrays your real feelings.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 08:04 AM
It's deceptive because it's transparently weighted to encourage the "yes" vote to split and keep the "no" vote is high as possible. Everyone here will play any AC game regardless of whether the protagonists of the main titles remain a string of men, but by attaching that sentiment only to the "no" vote you won't get a totally accurate measure of positive feeling about changing this routine.

This language is dishonest, too:

"Do you care? Do you actually really truly care?"

You claim to be completely neutral, but your weary tone betrays your real feelings.

I see what you mean, although that was not my intention. I was trying to make people think really hard about whether they care or not, but I shall change it.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-19-2014, 08:34 AM
Oh boy. I assume most on here will either vote "no" or vote yes but with the caveat that "it doesnt matter and people should stop, it's their vision"

I think it's very important to include more females and I love that games have recently begun to include more. The new Tomb Raider games have turned Lara Croft from being a adolescent eye candy fantasy with impractical dress to someone really interesting, cooler, and with more practical clothing. It's like, yeah, you can see cleavage in the new games and you could in the old games. The problem was that before it was emphasized and the outfits were made to draw attention to that kind of stuff. The cleavage in the new TR is just a by product of a girl having boobs and that's totally fine.

I mean, even NINTENDO is releasing Hyrule Warriors where most of the playable characters are female (typically in games with a roster or in team ups like Avengers/Justice League type groups -- men outnumber the women. In Hyrule Warrios, the roster has the females outnumbering the men. That's a neat change of pace. Also, only one of them is somewhat provocatively dressed: Cia. http://zeldawiki.org/Hyrule_Warriors#Playable_Characters

That's pretty cool.

The reason I gave Ubi a hard time is because it would have been cool to see them lead their big franchise into next gen with a female. And being as big as they are, they could drive a pretty positive change in the industry. Many will claim that it's unimportant and that there are worse things happening to women in the world. All too true. But positive imagery, positive reinforcement that girls can be heroes too, that they're not just damsels can help in its own way. Am I suggesting that female Assassins in AC will suddenly end the horrible things committed against women in the world? Of course not, but it would be a positive step in the right direction. Again, no, not every game needs a female character. But like Loyal said -- the sheer amount of similar heroes is ridiculous.

Just watch this quick video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M3LnoHz6o

And yes, I realize they count the co-op Assassins even though everyone is Arno but what we were SHOWN at E3 were 4 different guys and that's what they're counting.

I would have preferred to switch the roles -- Elise as an Assassin, Arno as a Templar -- same basic backstories for both but we play as ELISE instead. Or whatever the girl's name would have been. Something related to eagle maybe. But you get what I'm saying. I still can't wait for Unity but maaaan. :/ Especially since the most famous Assassin of the F. Rev. was a girl. And yes, she was caught -- most assassinations are a political statement and very few would have really been like the Assassins of the AC series regardless of gender.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 10:23 AM
Oh boy. I assume most on here will either vote "no" or vote yes but with the caveat that "it doesnt matter and people should stop, it's their vision"

I think it's very important to include more females and I love that games have recently begun to include more. The new Tomb Raider games have turned Lara Croft from being a adolescent eye candy fantasy with impractical dress to someone really interesting, cooler, and with more practical clothing. It's like, yeah, you can see cleavage in the new games and you could in the old games. The problem was that before it was emphasized and the outfits were made to draw attention to that kind of stuff. The cleavage in the new TR is just a by product of a girl having boobs and that's totally fine.

I mean, even NINTENDO is releasing Hyrule Warriors where most of the playable characters are female (typically in games with a roster or in team ups like Avengers/Justice League type groups -- men outnumber the women. In Hyrule Warrios, the roster has the females outnumbering the men. That's a neat change of pace. Also, only one of them is somewhat provocatively dressed: Cia. http://zeldawiki.org/Hyrule_Warriors#Playable_Characters

That's pretty cool.

The reason I gave Ubi a hard time is because it would have been cool to see them lead their big franchise into next gen with a female. And being as big as they are, they could drive a pretty positive change in the industry. Many will claim that it's unimportant and that there are worse things happening to women in the world. All too true. But positive imagery, positive reinforcement that girls can be heroes too, that they're not just damsels can help in its own way. Am I suggesting that female Assassins in AC will suddenly end the horrible things committed against women in the world? Of course not, but it would be a positive step in the right direction. Again, no, not every game needs a female character. But like Loyal said -- the sheer amount of similar heroes is ridiculous.

Just watch this quick video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M3LnoHz6o

And yes, I realize they count the co-op Assassins even though everyone is Arno but what we were SHOWN at E3 were 4 different guys and that's what they're counting.

I would have preferred to switch the roles -- Elise as an Assassin, Arno as a Templar -- same basic backstories for both but we play as ELISE instead. Or whatever the girl's name would have been. Something related to eagle maybe. But you get what I'm saying. I still can't wait for Unity but maaaan. :/ Especially since the most famous Assassin of the F. Rev. was a girl. And yes, she was caught -- most assassinations are a political statement and very few would have really been like the Assassins of the AC series regardless of gender.

I get the feeling that the video was made by some Tumblr feminist.

Arlette is a French name meaning Eagle, or even better, Arnaude, the feminine version of Arnau (Arno), which means Eagle Power.

I agree with you with mostly everything; and it's good to see the evolution of female representation take a turn for the better.

The way I see it though, people are treating this situation like Ubisoft is obliged to make the character female after so many male characters.
As for the "positive reinforcement that girls can be heroes too, that they're not just damsels can help in its own way" part, I really think that's a bit strange. Every rational person should know that it's true, that women can be heroes too, so I don't see why anyone would need a female character for validation of that truth.

ze_topazio
09-19-2014, 10:42 AM
Gender, race, nationality, sexuality, hair and eye color, body size, religion, favorite football club, etc.. is irrelevant as long as the game is good and interesting.

D.I.D.
09-19-2014, 12:04 PM
I see what you mean, although that was not my intention. I was trying to make people think really hard about whether they care or not, but I shall change it.

Okay, but you've just changed it and made it even worse.

Now, it's

YES for wanting a female character
NO if you're happy either way


NO is not being presented as a vote against a female protagonist, because it appears to leave open the possibility of a female protag in the future. This would be fine if we were trying to measure urgency -- if people need to see a female protag in the very next game -- but it's not. You're asking if people need a female protag at all, and your options don't cover that.

I'd scrap the thread if you want to make a fair question. The reason some people are upset about AC in particular is that the series's full core games (i.e. first-on-console, and not counting the mobile minigames, Bloodlines, Liberation or Freedom Cry, because they're not entries that had the full weight of the company behind them), all eight have only had playable characters for their campaigns. Given these circumstances, you need to present choices appropriate to the issue.

It's somewhat pointless though. This forum's had these arguments over and over again, and they can never be settled here. We have only a very small number of active users, and we're not representative of the market because we're all oddballs just for having turned up. The argument is more one for the entire games market, not just AC's current customers, and certainly not the kind of swivel-eyed lunatic who'd vote and criticise the minutiae of a person's poll on the AC forum. Oh wait, that's me.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 12:22 PM
Okay, but you've just changed it and made it even worse.

Now, it's

YES for wanting a female character
NO if you're happy either way


NO is not being presented as a vote against a female protagonist, because it appears to leave open the possibility of a female protag in the future. This would be fine if we were trying to measure urgency -- if people need to see a female protag in the very next game -- but it's not. You're asking if people need a female protag at all, and your options don't cover that.

I'd scrap the thread if you want to make a fair question. The reason some people are upset about AC in particular is that the series's full core games (i.e. first-on-console, and not counting the mobile minigames, Bloodlines, Liberation or Freedom Cry, because they're not entries that had the full weight of the company behind them), all eight have only had playable characters for their campaigns. Given these circumstances, you need to present choices appropriate to the issue.

It's somewhat pointless though. This forum's had these arguments over and over again, and they can never be settled here. We have only a very small number of active users, and we're not representative of the market because we're all oddballs just for having turned up. The argument is more one for the entire games market, not just AC's current customers, and certainly not the kind of swivel-eyed lunatic who'd vote and criticise the minutiae of a person's poll on the AC forum. Oh wait, that's me.

NO is supposed to be presented as "I don't care, I'm happy either way", because YES is "I want a female assassin". "I'm a doorknob" is for people who do not want a female, and I merely called it that as there is no third option in a definitive yes/no scenario. But this needs that third option.

Remember, the question is "do you care about female characters" not "do you want female characters"

jeordievera
09-19-2014, 12:44 PM
I want a playable female assassin in the future but on the other hand I am not dissapointed they didn't create one yet.
What I care about is the character is well writen and I can somehow relate to and like whether it's he or she.

Journey93
09-19-2014, 12:54 PM
Oh boy. I assume most on here will either vote "no" or vote yes but with the caveat that "it doesnt matter and people should stop, it's their vision"

I think it's very important to include more females and I love that games have recently begun to include more. The new Tomb Raider games have turned Lara Croft from being a adolescent eye candy fantasy with impractical dress to someone really interesting, cooler, and with more practical clothing. It's like, yeah, you can see cleavage in the new games and you could in the old games. The problem was that before it was emphasized and the outfits were made to draw attention to that kind of stuff. The cleavage in the new TR is just a by product of a girl having boobs and that's totally fine.

I mean, even NINTENDO is releasing Hyrule Warriors where most of the playable characters are female (typically in games with a roster or in team ups like Avengers/Justice League type groups -- men outnumber the women. In Hyrule Warrios, the roster has the females outnumbering the men. That's a neat change of pace. Also, only one of them is somewhat provocatively dressed: Cia. http://zeldawiki.org/Hyrule_Warriors#Playable_Characters

That's pretty cool.

The reason I gave Ubi a hard time is because it would have been cool to see them lead their big franchise into next gen with a female. And being as big as they are, they could drive a pretty positive change in the industry. Many will claim that it's unimportant and that there are worse things happening to women in the world. All too true. But positive imagery, positive reinforcement that girls can be heroes too, that they're not just damsels can help in its own way. Am I suggesting that female Assassins in AC will suddenly end the horrible things committed against women in the world? Of course not, but it would be a positive step in the right direction. Again, no, not every game needs a female character. But like Loyal said -- the sheer amount of similar heroes is ridiculous.

Just watch this quick video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M3LnoHz6o

And yes, I realize they count the co-op Assassins even though everyone is Arno but what we were SHOWN at E3 were 4 different guys and that's what they're counting.

I would have preferred to switch the roles -- Elise as an Assassin, Arno as a Templar -- same basic backstories for both but we play as ELISE instead. Or whatever the girl's name would have been. Something related to eagle maybe. But you get what I'm saying. I still can't wait for Unity but maaaan. :/ Especially since the most famous Assassin of the F. Rev. was a girl. And yes, she was caught -- most assassinations are a political statement and very few would have really been like the Assassins of the AC series regardless of gender.


I have nothing against more female protagonists BUT this video is pure feminist ********
I actually want more badass female characters like Lara Croft but sometimes listening to the butthurt feminists
I hope it stays the way it is

JustPlainQuirky
09-19-2014, 12:55 PM
Gender, race, nationality, sexuality, hair and eye color, body size, religion, favorite football club, etc.. is irrelevant as long as the game is good and interesting.


This.

Let the devs develop what they want to develop.

Leave the audience's agenda out of it.

#lolthisgoesagainstalotofmymoderndaycomplaintsbutw hatever

m4r-k7
09-19-2014, 01:07 PM
I don't really care.

If they do have a female protagonist, great.
If not, great aswell.

But it does annoy me when female protagonists are so overly sexualised in gaming.

JustPlainQuirky
09-19-2014, 01:09 PM
But it does annoy me when female protagonists are so overly sexualised in gaming.

True.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 01:11 PM
This.

Let the devs develop what they want to develop.

Leave the audience's agenda out of it.

#lolthisgoesagainstalotofmymoderndaycomplaintsbutw hatever

#nicehashtagItotallydidntneedtohighlightittoreadit

I still laugh every time I play a game for the first time and it says "this work of fiction was developed by a multicultural team of various religious faiths and beliefs", and no, I totally have not memorised it, that is just ridiculous(!)

JustPlainQuirky
09-19-2014, 01:12 PM
I think that message before every AC game is very respectful.

I like it.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 01:17 PM
I think that message before every AC game is very respectful.

I like it.

I like it too, I totally understand why it had to be done in AC1 and AC2 but after them I don't think it is necessary but Ubisoft still does it, almost like an easter egg.

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 01:28 PM
I honestly don’t give two sh*ts about whether there are females or males or whatever. I believe that the gender, sexuality, race and personality of the character should match the game and it’s story. I don’t want a game featuring a female protagonist just because somebody wants a female protagonist. And I don’t believe Ubisoft is racist or sexist or whatever, because it’s a work of art, and art should be whatever the artist wants it to be. It doesn’t have to conform to certain standards or make others feel good or bad about themselves. Art should be appreciated for what it is without having to obey any rules.

If they happened to make a game starring a female assassin, I’ll buy it and if they never make one, I’ll also buy it. I’ve always loved Tomb Raider and it stars a female, Lara Croft and I love Claire and Jill the most from Resident Evil, so I have nothing against female protagonists and in fact, my most favorite characters from games are women, not that I need to explain myself nor that I’m forced to be what others expect me to be, but just saying that when I find an interesting story and game as a whole, I love it, but I don’t like something to feel forced or made just because. Quite honestly, being an assassin felt more like a man thing than a woman thing. I don’t care what I’m named based on that statement but this is just how I feel about. Shao Jun was amazing, Aveline was not. So if they’re to introduce a female assassin lead, it should be Shao Jun.

If they ever succeed in making an entertaining and convincing female character for AC, I’ll be happy about it. But I will in no way complain about the lack of them.

pacmanate
09-19-2014, 01:30 PM
No I do not care, but I have requirements.


1. Give her a good story (This literally goes for anything, if a story in the game sucks, the protag automatically sucks as they are written properly)
2. Don't sexualise her.
3. Don't make all the males in the game hormonal

GoldenBoy9999
09-19-2014, 02:04 PM
I won't mind who it is. I liked Shao Jun, so if they have a female protagonist I won't mind. Tomb Raider is one of my favorite franchises and it centers around Lara.

AssassinHMS
09-19-2014, 02:12 PM
I like it too, I totally understand why it had to be done in AC1 and AC2 but after them I don't think it is necessary but Ubisoft still does it, almost like an easter egg.
One can never be too careful in a world full of preconceived thoughts, gullible people, minds offended by themselves and naive hypocrites.



I honestly don’t like those messages. They feel like a “just to be safe” or “you have no reason to be offended by whatever we show next” message. It’s Ubisoft’s signature standard defensive move. I understand this is useful, since they want people to like them as a company and buy their products, but the need for this kind of defensive maneuvers is quite saddening.




Oh and, at this point, they’ll probably need to add “genders” to that message. EDIT: And, who knows, maybe "sexual orientations" too.

The_Kiwi_
09-19-2014, 02:15 PM
Someone voted doorknob.

Day=complete.

I got the latest Tomb Raider but I've hardly played it at all.
There's heaps of talk here about how a female character would be great as long as the story is, but that's why I haven't played TR to the end because it has story problems. But yes, she is an awesome character.
I think it would be great if Ubisoft made a Shao Jun game for the Vita, but there might a bit of "are female assassins not good enough for main games? Only good enough for spinoffs?" but they can just go complain on Tumblr for all I care.

HiddenKiller612
09-19-2014, 02:17 PM
I voted doorknob :D

Dag_B
09-19-2014, 02:24 PM
As long as the game is well written and has good gameplay I do not care. If it is bad written and/or has bad gameplay I don't care either because I would not play it, regardless what gender the protagonist has.

The important part for games is that the protagonist fits in the setting and does not feel "forced". So they shouldn't make a female character just to say "Hey, we maked a female!!111".

I tend to build female characters, if I have the choice (probably, because I am female ;) ), so I would be happy about a good AC with a female character... but I am totally ok with more males, as long as they fit their setting and have a good story etc pp.

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 02:31 PM
I think Ubisoft’s biggest mistake is that they explain themselves when they shouldn’t. They did when PETA called them “a disgrace” for showing whaling activity, they explained themselves for the female assassins thing and they did it when people said FC4 artwork is racist.

Let me tell you something, nobody is gonna kill a whale just because a game did so, especially when that game is not PG-13, which means the gamers are mature enough to tell the difference between art and real killing.

Another thing, art shouldn’t conform to any standards, so if they artists decided all assassins should be male, that’s their vision, there’s no agenda to eliminate women. Nobody’s gonna admire women more or less if one appeared in AC. If they wanna do it to show acknowledgement, then they should make a game starring a disabled assassin, a gay assassin, a transexual assassin..etc. to show all types of people that they’re acknowledged and I’m not against that, but I’m against the idea that certain elements are forced onto the story just to show acknowledgement. The main point is a good story about the Assassins and Templars, if it happened to have a deeper message, then that’s good, if not, then it’s not bad, either as long as it’s being true to the mythology of the franchise.

One more thing, if FC4 artwork pictured a racist person/action, so bit it. It’s a story. It can be about anything. The story doesn’t have to be about the ideal, perfect life. 12 Years A Slave was a movie about slavery and racism, does that mean it’s a racist and offensive film? no. It’s a story and you have the choice to listen to it or not. The story in no way tells people to behave that way against people of other races. It pictures cases from life. It doesn’t necessarily have to be supporting them.

People are becoming so touchy and they just wanna be offended from anything and I think the ideal solution is ignoring them cause giving an explanation gives these people the attention they’re seeking, which they shouldn’t be getting because it’s unnecessary and pointless.

AssassinHMS
09-19-2014, 02:53 PM
I think Ubisoft’s biggest mistake is that they explain themselves when they shouldn’t. They did when PETA called them “a disgrace” for showing whaling activity, they explained themselves for the female assassins thing and they did it when people said FC4 artwork is racist.

Let me tell you something, nobody is gonna kill a whale just because a game did so, especially when that game is not PG-13, which means the gamers are mature enough to tell the difference between art and real killing.

Another thing, art shouldn’t conform to any standards, so if they artists decided all assassins should be male, that’s their vision, there’s no agenda to eliminate women. Nobody’s gonna admire women more or less if one appeared in AC. If they wanna do it to show acknowledgement, then they should make a game starring a disabled assassin, a gay assassin, a transexual assassin..etc. to show all types of people that they’re acknowledged and I’m not against that, but I’m against the idea that certain elements are forced onto the story just to show acknowledgement. The main point is a good story about the Assassins and Templars, if it happened to have a deeper message, then that’s good, if not, then it’s not bad, either as long as it’s being true to the mythology of the franchise.

One more thing, if FC4 artwork pictured a racist person/action, so bit it. It’s a story. It can be about anything. The story doesn’t have to be about the ideal, perfect life. 12 Years A Slave was a movie about slavery and racism, does that mean it’s a racist and offensive film? no. It’s a story and you have the choice to listen to it or not. The story in no way tells people to behave that way against people of other races. It pictures cases from life. It doesn’t necessarily have to be supporting them.

People are becoming so touchy and they just wanna be offended from anything and I think the ideal solution is ignoring them cause giving an explanation gives these people the attention they’re seeking, which they shouldn’t be getting because it’s unnecessary and pointless.

Agreed and I'm glad you brought up Ubisoft's apologies/explanations since I wanted to do that but forgot.
Never explain things that don’t have to do with the game Ubisoft, you’ll only make yourself a target by acknowledging words that should be ignored.

Sushiglutton
09-19-2014, 03:20 PM
Think Ubi should make a main game with a female protagonist soon for several reasons.

- First off in a yearly franchise it makes sense to vary the games as much as you can.

- Secondly, diversity in culture is important and I think a company of Ubisoft's size and influence should promote it if they can. In the current hateful climate it becomes even more important!

- Thirdly, AC seems to have a lot of female fans (based on this forum and other online resources), so it would make a lot of sense to also have a female protagonist every now and then.

SpiritOfNevaeh
09-19-2014, 03:24 PM
Gender, race, nationality, sexuality, hair and eye color, body size, religion, favorite football club, etc.. is irrelevant as long as the game is good and interesting.

My thoughts exactly.

I could care less if it's a male or female as long as the story is good and the character gender is not relevant.

Bastiaen
09-19-2014, 03:29 PM
I voted no because to me, it doesn't matter what a character's gender is, as long as I enjoy that character. That is not to say that I don't wish there were more female characters in games, because I do. I think it's ridiculous what happened with Unity and the criticisms it received for not having a female character. Stop whining world. Grow up a little bit.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 03:33 PM
Not this again haha...at least this one is a civilized question and not some rant about how Ubi is (something)ist


Gender, race, nationality, sexuality, hair and eye color, body size, religion, favorite football club, etc.. is irrelevant as long as the game is good and interesting.

This ^

Locopells
09-19-2014, 03:59 PM
Not this again haha...at least this one is a civilized question and not some rant about how Ubi is (something)ist

Indeed. I'll let this run for now., but usual warning guys...

Assassin_M
09-19-2014, 04:00 PM
No, I don't care...as in I wont whine and moan about it but if a game has a playable female, then by all means, I would love to play as a female.

Hans684
09-19-2014, 04:06 PM
I care for the story, if the protagonist is female, male etc... doesn't matter. What do matter is the performance of the story and characters.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w

Journey93
09-19-2014, 04:33 PM
I think Ubisoft’s biggest mistake is that they explain themselves when they shouldn’t. They did when PETA called them “a disgrace” for showing whaling activity, they explained themselves for the female assassins thing and they did it when people said FC4 artwork is racist.

Let me tell you something, nobody is gonna kill a whale just because a game did so, especially when that game is not PG-13, which means the gamers are mature enough to tell the difference between art and real killing.

Another thing, art shouldn’t conform to any standards, so if they artists decided all assassins should be male, that’s their vision, there’s no agenda to eliminate women. Nobody’s gonna admire women more or less if one appeared in AC. If they wanna do it to show acknowledgement, then they should make a game starring a disabled assassin, a gay assassin, a transexual assassin..etc. to show all types of people that they’re acknowledged and I’m not against that, but I’m against the idea that certain elements are forced onto the story just to show acknowledgement. The main point is a good story about the Assassins and Templars, if it happened to have a deeper message, then that’s good, if not, then it’s not bad, either as long as it’s being true to the mythology of the franchise.

One more thing, if FC4 artwork pictured a racist person/action, so bit it. It’s a story. It can be about anything. The story doesn’t have to be about the ideal, perfect life. 12 Years A Slave was a movie about slavery and racism, does that mean it’s a racist and offensive film? no. It’s a story and you have the choice to listen to it or not. The story in no way tells people to behave that way against people of other races. It pictures cases from life. It doesn’t necessarily have to be supporting them.

People are becoming so touchy and they just wanna be offended from anything and I think the ideal solution is ignoring them cause giving an explanation gives these people the attention they’re seeking, which they shouldn’t be getting because it’s unnecessary and pointless.


I agree completely no idea why Ubi thinks they have to explain themselves
to feminists and animal rights organisation
also the backlash to far ry 4's artwork was ridiculous but like with the other things instead
of standing up to it Ubi acted like pussies and changed it

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 05:47 PM
I agree completely no idea why Ubi thinks they have to explain themselves
to feminists and animal rights organisation
also the backlash to far ry 4's artwork was ridiculous but like with the other things instead
of standing up to it Ubi acted like pussies and changed it

Yeah. That’s exactly my point. An artist shouldn’t change a painting, a movie, a game or a song, just because someone might feel offended.

People should just open their minds and understand that stories are cases from reality and fiction. If they echo something in reality, then there’s no need to deny them, and if they’re the work of fiction, then no need to take them seriously enough to be offended by them, because they’re fiction, not real. A true artist would rather not present anything than presenting an altered work just to shut some mouths up.

HiddenKiller612
09-19-2014, 05:48 PM
People will complain no matter how much you cater to them. When Ubi makes another female main character, people will still complain... There's no pleasing everyone.

MnemonicSyntax
09-19-2014, 06:16 PM
This.

Let the devs develop what they want to develop.

Leave the audience's agenda out of it.

I agree with this.

I voted no because I don't care, because I'm interested in the story that Ubisoft wants to tell, not Ubisoft being forced to listen to my story.

Though, I'd certainly be happy if the female protag didn't run like a chicken flapping it's arms like Aveline does -.-;

SixKeys
09-19-2014, 06:18 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

MnemonicSyntax
09-19-2014, 06:21 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

Don't see why not, I enjoyed Tomb Raider and it's series since Day 1. (Old school Tomb Raider, not the reboot, though the reboot was great too.)

ze_topazio
09-19-2014, 06:30 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

Fine by me.

Xstantin
09-19-2014, 06:33 PM
I usually buy the game regardless of the protagonist's gender if I like the look of it.

Shahkulu101
09-19-2014, 06:33 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

I'd be totally okay with that, but I don't really think gender is irrelevant as some people are claiming.

You can't claim that genders are interchangeable. Obviously, a female protagonist is going to change the story, and even the mechanics as evidenced by Aveline's persona system which highlighted the social conventions woman had to conform to at the time. I'm sure you know this, I'm just saying that's why I believe gender is indeed very relevant. I think there's plenty of interesting things AC can do by diversifying it's cast - it's already done so with the Native American Connor if we specifically talk about the main games. I support diversity and would like to see it, but if it's not present in the games and woman and ethnic minorities aren't being portrayed in a derogatory manner then I won't complain and claim the developers are obliged to carry out my wishes.

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 06:35 PM
Don't see why not, I enjoyed Tomb Raider and it's series since Day 1. (Old school Tomb Raider, not the reboot, though the reboot was great too.)

Same here. I’ve enjoyed all TRs since day one and the best memories I have in Resident Evil games are with Claire and Jill.

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 07:08 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

As long as the design is really cool I don't see why not :)

Hans684
09-19-2014, 07:32 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

Sure.

DynastyEmpire
09-19-2014, 07:44 PM
this thread needs to be closed, the arguments had gone too far, plus you can tell by the poll that this guy is a troll, i play games for story, not gender or race.

if you see all 3 answers & the 3rd answer you can tell this guy is a troll.

people have complain about this too long.

it gone out of hand and it's old now.

so close this thread.

Hans684
09-19-2014, 07:46 PM
^ It's the most civil female protagonist discussion so far, troll or not.

TheHumanTowel
09-19-2014, 07:54 PM
^ It's the most civil female protagonist discussion so far, troll or not.
I think he's just uncomfortable with discussion on this subject in the first place. You always get people inexplicably saying threads on these type of topics should be locked because "they've gone too far".

Sushiglutton
09-19-2014, 08:00 PM
I wish I had the energy to discuss this topic, because I disagreee with most comments made lol. But I don't ;).

Kakuzu745
09-19-2014, 08:43 PM
this thread needs to be closed, the arguments had gone too far, plus you can tell by the poll that this guy is a troll, i play games for story, not gender or race.

if you see all 3 answers & the 3rd answer you can tell this guy is a troll.

people have complain about this too long.

it gone out of hand and it's old now.

so close this thread.

This is by far the most civilized topic about this and I do no think the OP is trolling. However, this has been discussed so many times and brought to the table by so many trolls that I guess many people already lost the willing to argue haha.

ze_topazio
09-19-2014, 08:45 PM
this thread needs to be closed, the arguments had gone too far, plus you can tell by the poll that this guy is a troll, i play games for story, not gender or race.

if you see all 3 answers & the 3rd answer you can tell this guy is a troll.

people have complain about this too long.

it gone out of hand and it's old now.

so close this thread.

I don't dare dictate how anyone should enjoy their games but shouldn't you play games for the actual game first and only then the story?

MnemonicSyntax
09-19-2014, 08:46 PM
Just ignore Empire. If you don't, that'll be the quickest way this thread gets closed.

Hans684
09-19-2014, 09:24 PM
I think he's just uncomfortable with discussion on this subject in the first place. You always get people inexplicably saying threads on these type of topics should be locked because "they've gone too far".

Understandable since topics like these can easy get out of control. So far this thread hasn't gone too far.

Fatal-Feit
09-19-2014, 10:08 PM
I don't dare dictate how anyone should enjoy their games but shouldn't you play games for the actual game first and only then the story?

For some people, the story is the icing on the cake. *cough*JRPGs*cough*

poptartz20
09-19-2014, 11:36 PM
To be honest I'm one of those women that loves playing as male characters. at the end of the day, either way wouldn't bother me. I agree with Ricey and Pac on this.

The_Kiwi_
09-20-2014, 12:01 AM
this thread needs to be closed, the arguments had gone too far, plus you can tell by the poll that this guy is a troll, i play games for story, not gender or race.

if you see all 3 answers & the 3rd answer you can tell this guy is a troll.

people have complain about this too long.

it gone out of hand and it's old now.

so close this thread.

Everyone is being extremely civil so I don't see why "the arguments have gone too far".
Also, I am not trolling anyone, what would be the point?

I know that this question has been asked before, but whenever it was asked, it was whether or not people want a female.
I have turned that around and asked if people actually care about the situation, which, in my opinion, is a completely different discussion.

As long as people continue being civil, then I see no reason why this thread should be closed.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-20-2014, 12:32 AM
I get the feeling that the video was made by some Tumblr feminist.

Why does that matter? It paints a pretty accurate picture I think. Obviously Tomb Raider had a trailer (a GOOD one) and so a less unbiased video would show the protagonists of every video game trailer. For instance -- you play as Joel in TLOU but not Ellie so that's why she's not shown.

I'm pretty confident that if you add it up -- the guys will ridiculously outnumber the men.

Also, I would implore you not to let "tumblr feminists" ruin the term for you. I'm a feminist. I'm a guy, I'm 20, I don't use tumblr, and I hope I'm coming across as reasonable with my discussions. I will occasionally grow impatient or tired of having to try to defend my stance with like "why don't you get this??" but yeah. I only recently started thinking about this kind of stuff. I never used to growing up but I don't know. I just started thinking about it more. I'd say a big factor was growing tired of ridiculously drawn females in comics as well as other things.


Arlette is a French name meaning Eagle, or even better, Arnaude, the feminine version of Arnau (Arno), which means Eagle Power.

I like Arlette personally but Arnaude is nice too.


I agree with you with mostly everything; and it's good to see the evolution of female representation take a turn for the better.

The way I see it though, people are treating this situation like Ubisoft is obliged to make the character female after so many male characters.
As for the "positive reinforcement that girls can be heroes too, that they're not just damsels can help in its own way" part, I really think that's a bit strange. Every rational person should know that it's true, that women can be heroes too, so I don't see why anyone would need a female character for validation of that truth.

I don't necessarily think they're obliged to do it, per se. I'm just curious as to why they seem to overwhelmingly write about men. Like, I don't think they're sexist. Jade Raymond was a big name for the original AC (and neckbeards very quickly sexualized her on the internet because of course they did...) but yeah.. as a creator/artist/whatever you wanna call me. I tend to split my protagonists down the middle. My brother too. I don't even think about it. I don't go "oh who will this please, who is this going to better represent?" I just wrote a sci fi/fantasy story and the main protagonist happened to be a female and the secondary main protagonist was a male. The main GROUP is comprised of 2 girls, 2 guys, a robot. There's a bad guy chasing after them and another major villain introduced in a hypothetical sequel/second book/whatever it is is a female who is a part of some sort of black ops group <-- this girl... this girl is pretty awful. She wastes an entire place with just... anyway.

So I just did that naturally. I didn't think about it at all really. I just went "this would be cool, this too." And my stuff usually consists of that type of break down -- a typically even cast of females and males. and within that, pretty diverse as well. I just think it makes it more interesting. And so for people clamoring about how story > a gender. A gender has a lot to do with the story. First of all, I love me a good story. I want the game to play good and I want the story to be good as well. One thing that can damage the story? Being too repetitive. A girl would immediately freshen up the story simply because it's not as same-y. I'm not saying Arno will be a clone of Altair, Ezio, Connor, OR Edward... but I mean.. c'mon. The similarities are somewhat prevalent. Some form of family tragedy like Ezio/Connor's.

Either you or someone else mentioned that males and females are not interchangeable and... I guess.

Here's the thing -- in a contemporary game, yes they are. You can write a genderless but interesting protagonist and later assign gender to the character. Sometimes this is really neat as it allows a director to select from a larger pool of potential actors instead of limiting it to only one. But for a game that drowns itself in historical time periods and contexts, yes -- more than likely there would need to be some mention, some references to it. But not every story, including one with a female, needs to be about her overcoming the patriarchal society of the time period. Instead, have some small references and leave her actions to do the talking -- the fact that she's running around in pants and not really giving a sh*t about the customs or norms of the time with a progressive attitude should be the indication that she IS fighting against that system. It doesn't need to be seeped in that context.

But yes, definitely some things would change and... probably for the better. Those moments would be things we've never really seen in AC yet and open up many possibilities. I wouldn't be angry if the story had a big portion of her fighting against the cultural sexism of whatever place/time she is but I don't think it HAS to be that either.


I have nothing against more female protagonists BUT this video is pure feminist ********
I actually want more badass female characters like Lara Croft but sometimes listening to the butthurt feminists
I hope it stays the way it is

Again, you act as if "feminism" is bad. It's not. It doesn't matter if there are some out there who could be considered "feminazis" or whatever. It's the same B.S. that Republicans/conservatives did in Washington and the rest of the States. They made the term "liberal" a bad word so much so that actual liberals started shying away from the term. It's why you have girls and guys who stand for feminist ideals who "don't consider themselves a feminist" just because of the connotation it was artificially given.


Think Ubi should make a main game with a female protagonist soon for several reasons.

- First off in a yearly franchise it makes sense to vary the games as much as you can.

- Secondly, diversity in culture is important and I think a company of Ubisoft's size and influence should promote it if they can. In the current hateful climate it becomes even more important!

- Thirdly, AC seems to have a lot of female fans (based on this forum and other online resources), so it would make a lot of sense to also have a female protagonist every now and then.

Yes, yes, yes.


If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.

Let's do it! I would love to see it. And you know some people would complain that Ubisoft is now "pandering" and that they've forgotten their "male fans" nevermind the fact that they already had the same number of games with male protagonists themselves and Ubisoft would only be balancing it out haha.


I wish I had the energy to discuss this topic, because I disagreee with most comments made lol. But I don't ;).

I feel the same way but I feel it's important for me to stand up with my ideals. And basically be like "I think your wrong because x, y, and z reasons." It usually seems that it falls on either deaf or partially deaf ears though. Oh well. It's the internet. I never expect to change anyone's minds.

The_Kiwi_
09-20-2014, 12:49 AM
Why does that matter? It paints a pretty accurate picture I think. Obviously Tomb Raider had a trailer (a GOOD one) and so a less unbiased video would show the protagonists of every video game trailer. For instance -- you play as Joel in TLOU but not Ellie so that's why she's not shown.

I'm pretty confident that if you add it up -- the guys will ridiculously outnumber the men.

Also, I would implore you not to let "tumblr feminists" ruin the term for you. I'm a feminist. I'm a guy, I'm 20, I don't use tumblr, and I hope I'm coming across as reasonable with my discussions. I will occasionally grow impatient or tired of having to try to defend my stance with like "why don't you get this??" but yeah. I only recently started thinking about this kind of stuff. I never used to growing up but I don't know. I just started thinking about it more. I'd say a big factor was growing tired of ridiculously drawn females in comics as well as other things.

You are coming across as very reasonable. I use the term Tumblr feminist when I am referring to a woman who purposely goes out of their way to point out something that may or may not be even mildly sexist, and then blows it way out of proportion.
As for that video, I see it as biased because it's trying to show how many men are protagonists yet didn't show any female protagonists. I don't know how many there were that year but I'm assuming there were some, so I think it's a little biased as it didn't show any.

Imagine if TLOU, the most well-received game of the generation, gave you the option to switch between Ellie and Joel whenever. Some gameplay mechanics would have to change but I think it would be very very close to the original game, seeing as Ellie and Joel are together 95% of the time.

That's given me an idea...
What if Ubisoft made an AC where you could switch between characters like in LEGO games? You could have two characters on the screen at once, one male one female. Obviously they'd have to explain how it is possible with animus technology, but the way I'd explain it is they've just compiled the memories of two ancestors into one, due to them sharing memories as they are always together, and they could have a child together, which could be the conduit for both memory strains. That might even support couch co-op, which would be neat.

rprkjj
09-20-2014, 02:57 AM
Poll is a bit deceptively worded, but I'm voting yes. I'm not going to scream and cry until it happens, but I do actively seek out games starring women just as a change of pace. Over the last couple of years I've seen rumors of many different film adaptations of video games, and you know who fans ALWAYS nominate to star in them? Josh Brolin. Now, I don't have anything against Brolin, I think he's a really good actor, but the fact that he's ALWAYS the top pick shows you just how homogenous and similar most AAA game protagonists are. Pretty much every single popular game character (e.g. Nathan Drake, John Marston, Cole MacGrath, Solid Snake, Joel from TLOU, Desmond Miles, Booker from Bioshock, hell, even Kratos) could be played perfectly by Josh Brolin. It's time for a bit of a change IMO. Shao Jun FTW.

Really? Josh Brolin would make a good John Marston, maybe even Snake or Joel, but everyone else in that list, including Booker, look nothing like Brolin and they'd be better off with different actors.

As for the question, I wouldn't mind a female protag if they can pull it off.

SixKeys
09-20-2014, 03:26 AM
Let's do it! I would love to see it. And you know some people would complain that Ubisoft is now "pandering" and that they've forgotten their "male fans" nevermind the fact that they already had the same number of games with male protagonists themselves and Ubisoft would only be balancing it out haha.


Yep. The first game would probably be received with some enthusiasm ("See? We're not sexist, we're okay with this female character! Now feminists can stop whining!"). By the second game the disgruntled grumbling would start. ("Again? But we already had a female last time. Ugh, Guess I'll sit this one out.") By the third game there would be outrage. ("What the hell, Ubi?! You've had THREE females in a row! That's just ridiculous! I thought it was 'HIStory is our playground', not HERstory!"). By the fourth game there would be mobs with pitchforks and torches sending death threats to Ubi for trying to destroy the world with their evil feminist agenda, or something. By the fifth Ubi would return to male protags due to sheer MRA pressure and the mobs would settle down again as the world returned to its rightful order, with just a smidgeon of emotional blackmail."(Well, I'm glad you guys came to your senses. This dark period in the franchise may be over now, but you cut me deep, bruh. It's gonna take some time to rebuild my trust in Ubi. Can we really trust that they have the best interests of males everywhere in mind?")

The_Kiwi_
09-20-2014, 04:03 AM
I'm wondering what AC would be like if it was female protagonists from the start, and the only male was on a Vita game...

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-20-2014, 08:56 AM
Yep. The first game would probably be received with some enthusiasm ("See? We're not sexist, we're okay with this female character! Now feminists can stop whining!"). By the second game the disgruntled grumbling would start. ("Again? But we already had a female last time. Ugh, Guess I'll sit this one out.") By the third game there would be outrage. ("What the hell, Ubi?! You've had THREE females in a row! That's just ridiculous! I thought it was 'HIStory is our playground', not HERstory!"). By the fourth game there would be mobs with pitchforks and torches sending death threats to Ubi for trying to destroy the world with their evil feminist agenda, or something. By the fifth Ubi would return to male protags due to sheer MRA pressure and the mobs would settle down again as the world returned to its rightful order, with just a smidgeon of emotional blackmail."(Well, I'm glad you guys came to your senses. This dark period in the franchise may be over now, but you cut me deep, bruh. It's gonna take some time to rebuild my trust in Ubi. Can we really trust that they have the best interests of males everywhere in mind?")

Bahahah right? That would definitely happen -- in fact, we more or less know it because people will say "we ALREADY HAD a female protag!" or "go play Liberation if you wanna play as a female" as if that one game is good enough compared to whole of the series. :rolleyes:

Also, I laughed at that MRA jab. Any MRA jab makes me smile.


I'm wondering what AC would be like if it was female protagonists from the start, and the only male was on a Vita game...

Probably just as good if the gameplay was the same. Same ups and downs. I actually like Altair as the first Assassin. In the first AC, Malik is surprised when Altair reveals that a woman was acting as Robert and both of them share a "weird, right??" moment totally fitting of the age. They weren't OUTRAGED as some would have been which makes sense considering the Assassins of the order are very, very progressive for their time but they're still like "whaaa?" And all of the Assassins are males. That said... later canon makes this weird as we know there were ancient female Assassins in like..,Egypt or Babylonia (or both) and stuff and the brotherhood would have kept track no?

The_Kiwi_
09-20-2014, 11:05 AM
Probably just as good if the gameplay was the same. Same ups and downs. I actually like Altair as the first Assassin. In the first AC, Malik is surprised when Altair reveals that a woman was acting as Robert and both of them share a "weird, right??" moment totally fitting of the age. They weren't OUTRAGED as some would have been which makes sense considering the Assassins of the order are very, very progressive for their time but they're still like "whaaa?" And all of the Assassins are males. That said... later canon makes this weird as we know there were ancient female Assassins in like..,Egypt or Babylonia (or both) and stuff and the brotherhood would have kept track no?

Yeah that moment with Malik was great it was perfect comic relief.
What I was meaning though, do you think the series would have turned out as successful/turned out the way it is sequels-wise if the first character(s) were female?

rrebe
09-20-2014, 11:09 AM
The lack of playable female characters isn't that big of a deal for me. I don't care about the gender of the playable character, I care about the story and gameplay.

Loki Will Rule
09-20-2014, 11:42 AM
As long as the character is interesting and has a good backstory to go with it, I don't care what gender the character is.

ze_topazio
09-20-2014, 11:48 AM
Resident Evil fans for example were crying for the return of the females characters after 3 games in a row featuring the male characters, so things can go both ways, I like to believe videogames fans are not that closed minded.

alekiratu
09-20-2014, 01:49 PM
Yes, because it will actually enhance the series. We will see history from a woman's point of view which is pretty rare for books, movies and even games.

As a guy, I'm pretty tired of playing guys and I would love experiencing life (however virtual) from the other side.

cawatrooper9
09-20-2014, 03:56 PM
I vote yes- not necessarily because I want a female character, but because I think it would be a mistake to automatically discount one.

Fatal-Feit
09-20-2014, 04:06 PM
Whether it's male or female, I just want a genuinely good protagonist with a great character and story. I mean, I never thought twice about playing as Aveline, Adewale, or Connor despite them not being your usual white male leads. In fact, I love those characters. Although, I won't lie and say that having the next 8 main installments be female won't bother me. As a guy, I do want to immerse myself in these badass roles and it's easier when the main protagonist is a male. ...So I do sort of understand what's it like for women.

dxsxhxcx
09-20-2014, 04:09 PM
Yep. The first game would probably be received with some enthusiasm ("See? We're not sexist, we're okay with this female character! Now feminists can stop whining!"). By the second game the disgruntled grumbling would start. ("Again? But we already had a female last time. Ugh, Guess I'll sit this one out.") By the third game there would be outrage. ("What the hell, Ubi?! You've had THREE females in a row! That's just ridiculous! I thought it was 'HIStory is our playground', not HERstory!"). By the fourth game there would be mobs with pitchforks and torches sending death threats to Ubi for trying to destroy the world with their evil feminist agenda, or something. By the fifth Ubi would return to male protags due to sheer MRA pressure and the mobs would settle down again as the world returned to its rightful order, with just a smidgeon of emotional blackmail."(Well, I'm glad you guys came to your senses. This dark period in the franchise may be over now, but you cut me deep, bruh. It's gonna take some time to rebuild my trust in Ubi. Can we really trust that they have the best interests of males everywhere in mind?")

IMO if they had made a better use of S16 messages with all that Eve talk we could've had a female protagonist for an entire "arc" after AC3 without any of these reactions (or at least with a proper justification for the protagonist to be female).

"Find Eve, the key, her DNA."

Find Eve = Female protagonist;
The key, her DNA = the excuse to relive the memory of her female's ancestors.

RinoTheBouncer
09-20-2014, 04:13 PM
I'm wondering what AC would be like if it was female protagonists from the start, and the only male was on a Vita game...

I’m wondering the same. But I think people would’ve gotten used to it, cause that’s how it is in reality. It’s all about what you get used to. Many people consider women to specialized in nursing, breast-feeding, cooking, sewing, knitting, styling, decorating the house, dressing beautifully and wearing make-up because that’s how people go used to that image for a while. Whether one calls it sexist or not, that’s reality. Just like how people got used to the man to be the one who protects the woman, who takes responsibility, goes to war, works as a builder, soldier, driver, police officer..etc. all the things that involve strength and being tough.

It’s not because there are no women whom are strong enough to depend on themselves without the need to be damsels in distress, in need of a man who does everything while she stays home like a princess, but because people kinda got used to that for a while, from many cases in real life as well as art in it’s different forms.

So I think AC started as a job done by a hooded man with a certain story and goals and it went that way for so long that people just can’t see it the other way, without having to be sexist or having an agenda against women.


Yep. The first game would probably be received with some enthusiasm ("See? We're not sexist, we're okay with this female character! Now feminists can stop whining!"). By the second game the disgruntled grumbling would start. ("Again? But we already had a female last time. Ugh, Guess I'll sit this one out.") By the third game there would be outrage. ("What the hell, Ubi?! You've had THREE females in a row! That's just ridiculous! I thought it was 'HIStory is our playground', not HERstory!"). By the fourth game there would be mobs with pitchforks and torches sending death threats to Ubi for trying to destroy the world with their evil feminist agenda, or something. By the fifth Ubi would return to male protags due to sheer MRA pressure and the mobs would settle down again as the world returned to its rightful order, with just a smidgeon of emotional blackmail."(Well, I'm glad you guys came to your senses. This dark period in the franchise may be over now, but you cut me deep, bruh. It's gonna take some time to rebuild my trust in Ubi. Can we really trust that they have the best interests of males everywhere in mind?")

I totally agree about this.

I think, like I said above, it has a lot to do with getting used to the franchise. People got used to the franchise as a man’s adventure. Had the franchise started with a female or the second game stared a female, it would’ve been completely different.

On the other hand, I believe that males and females are indeed equal in terms of the right to be respected, equally protect by the law and equally paid as an employee. However, I do believe that certain jobs are more suitable for males than for females, and vice versa. It’s not because nursing kids and cooking makes you less of a man, nor that women are too weak and unreliable to be police officers or builders, for example. But I believe while we’re born equal in terms of respect and rights, we’re also born different to handle the different sides of life, equally.

SixKeys
09-20-2014, 04:40 PM
Whether it's male or female, I just want a genuinely good protagonist with a great character and story. I mean, I never thought twice about playing as Aveline, Adewale, or Connor despite them not being your usual white male leads. In fact, I love those characters. Although, I won't lie and say that having the next 8 main installments be female won't bother me. As a guy, I do want to immerse myself in these badass roles and it's easier when the main protagonist is a male. ...So I do sort of understand what's it like for women.

You're a guy?! All this time I thought you were female. o_o

I-Like-Pie45
09-20-2014, 04:44 PM
It takes one to know one, SK. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

JustPlainQuirky
09-20-2014, 04:54 PM
I thought fatal was a woman too....

Fatal-Feit
09-20-2014, 05:05 PM
It takes one to know one, SK. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I thought fatal was a woman too....


You're a guy?! All this time I thought you were female. o_o

What made you guys think I was a girl? :p

rprkjj
09-20-2014, 05:08 PM
Yep. The first game would probably be received with some enthusiasm ("See? We're not sexist, we're okay with this female character! Now feminists can stop whining!"). By the second game the disgruntled grumbling would start. ("Again? But we already had a female last time. Ugh, Guess I'll sit this one out.") By the third game there would be outrage. ("What the hell, Ubi?! You've had THREE females in a row! That's just ridiculous! I thought it was 'HIStory is our playground', not HERstory!"). By the fourth game there would be mobs with pitchforks and torches sending death threats to Ubi for trying to destroy the world with their evil feminist agenda, or something. By the fifth Ubi would return to male protags due to sheer MRA pressure and the mobs would settle down again as the world returned to its rightful order, with just a smidgeon of emotional blackmail."(Well, I'm glad you guys came to your senses. This dark period in the franchise may be over now, but you cut me deep, bruh. It's gonna take some time to rebuild my trust in Ubi. Can we really trust that they have the best interests of males everywhere in mind?")

There would be nay sayers, but with today's popular media and gaming media, every gaming journalist/regular journalist would be having wet dreams about this. If it became a big enough deal, I'd bet even FOX news would give approval if only for publicity. Or people would just think Ubisoft would be trying to get on feminists' good side after no playable females in mp.

JustPlainQuirky
09-20-2014, 05:26 PM
I honestly don't know why.

rprkjj
09-20-2014, 05:52 PM
I honestly don't know why.

What?

SixKeys
09-20-2014, 06:16 PM
What made you guys think I was a girl? :p

I dunno, maybe the "senpai noticed me" comic. XD And I think a while ago you had an anime girl as your avatar.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 12:16 AM
Yeah that moment with Malik was great it was perfect comic relief.
What I was meaning though, do you think the series would have turned out as successful/turned out the way it is sequels-wise if the first character(s) were female?

I would assume so, provided that everyone here who says "it doesnt matter" truly feels that way. But perhaps it wouldn't be as big in general outside of the hardcore forum community due to having a female protagonist. From a business standpoint, it'd be easy and quick to want to switch to a male but I also think that women selling less when it comes to entertainment is B.S. Part of that is because whenever female movies are made, they're often done cheap and tend to have poor storylines so no one cares for them. And if the majority of society DO care less about female protagonists which resulted in a less popular AC because of women... then that shows a huge problem.

One that, over time, media COULD change -- groups like Ubisoft COULD change, if they were to continue to make them without reducing them to eye candy.


Yes, because it will actually enhance the series. We will see history from a woman's point of view which is pretty rare for books, movies and even games.

As a guy, I'm pretty tired of playing guys and I would love experiencing life (however virtual) from the other side.

Yesss!

I've said it before, I've only recently begun to try looking at it from the other POV. I think having a woman's POV would inherently help freshen up the plot for all those who keep saying "as long as the plots good..." and stuff.


Whether it's male or female, I just want a genuinely good protagonist with a great character and story. I mean, I never thought twice about playing as Aveline, Adewale, or Connor despite them not being your usual white male leads. In fact, I love those characters. Although, I won't lie and say that having the next 8 main installments be female won't bother me. As a guy, I do want to immerse myself in these badass roles and it's easier when the main protagonist is a male. ...So I do sort of understand what's it like for women.

As do I. I see this sentiment brought up often and I;m not asking for them to simply shoehorn a woman in. It's why I don't care about the lack of a girl in co-op for ACU (it does look kinda bad though) but I just wish they had opted for a girl from the start and that we'd then have 4 female co-op assassins for the same reason we currently have the opposite.

I just wish Ubi was more inclined to write cool female characters. And I'm glad you can see it from that perspective. As someone who doesn't care if the protagonist is a male or female and can get immersed either way, I still realize that others don't feel the same and would prefer to have someone of the same gender to better implant themselves onto. That's why I wish there were more female leads in games because it's just how the world is and women should get to enjoy seeing "themselves" as the hero just as often as we do.

I know people would get upset and would be quick to claim Ubi is just covering the bases but switching gender per game would be ideal. You don't get too stuck writing just men OR just women and since the series is an annual thing now, it's just another way that will keep the games from feeling too similar.


There would be nay sayers, but with today's popular media and gaming media, every gaming journalist/regular journalist would be having wet dreams about this. If it became a big enough deal, I'd bet even FOX news would give approval if only for publicity. Or people would just think Ubisoft would be trying to get on feminists' good side after no playable females in mp.

Let's not get TOO crazy hahaha



What do people think of Quiet's (from MGSV) outfit? To me, it's completely and utterly ridiculous. People have been defending but when you see how she's dressed and how the men are fully decked out in gear, it's pretty bad. People will bring up the male nudity in the games' past but the thing about that is that it wasn't the whole game. Quiet will be, presumably, dressed that day for the majority of the game.

I've been trying to show that it's the same thing as the dumb bikini armor present in various RPG games or comic book hero outfits (males usually being covered, females exposed) but people have already sworn their allegiance to the Church of Kojima. nothing against the guy, the gameplay looks fantastic, but his initial response was that they purposely made it as sexual and revealing as possible 'cause cosplay. Anyway... it's funny because people have accused me for calling out Ubisoft and getting on their case about the lack of women. I'm not doing it because I think Ubi is sexist or bad or whatever but based on Liberation, I'm pretty confident that other female Assassins, on a main console game like Unity or the next one, would look more like THIS
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/053/8/9/ac3_liberation_aveline_de_grandpre_assassin_pack_b y_sumirehaikuxna-d77j24g.png

and less like this:
http://videogamewriters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/quiet-mgs-v.jpg

Shahkulu101
09-21-2014, 12:39 AM
Yeah Quiet's outfit is ridiculous and if it were Ubisoft or any other games company there would be outrage amongst the gaming community and Polygon and Kotaku would explode but they seem happy to ignore it because it's Kojima.

I mean seriously, there was MASSIVE outrage over the Unity co-op thing that turned out to be a misinterpretation by games 'journalists' (I still can't believe how many got their facts wrong) but a blind eye is being turned on that real issue...

I'm fully confident that if they have a female protagonist in the main games then, like Aveline, her outfit will be fine. And even if the outfit was slightly 'sexy', I wouldn't mind as long as it wasn't over the top and her character wasn't undermined by it. It would be a great shame and a missed opportunity if there never is a female protagonist. And is it just me or have discussion like this gotten more heated in recent years? A few years ago when I saw discussions about it on the wiki it was all positive and people were actually clamouring together for it but the issue seems a hotter topic now. This particular discussion is much more civil though. Let's keep it that way.

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 01:14 AM
Yeah Quiet's outfit is ridiculous and if it were Ubisoft or any other games company there would be outrage amongst the gaming community and Polygon and Kotaku would explode but they seem happy to ignore it because it's Kojima.

No, they have criticised it, lots of times. Some of the readers became angry about how many articles the issue was spawning. Here are some of those articles.

http://kotaku.com/theres-a-reason-for-metal-gears-sexy-sniper-what-it-1270166313

"I'll be interested to know what it is, in this character's story, that leads her to go to a battlefield scantily clad, and how that is a statement of empowerment or one that repudiates other female combatants. Right now it sounds like a bunch of defensive, retrofitted nonsense."

http://kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-v-gets-rare-sexual-violence-ratings-1495802973

"Kojima has remarked that there will be more depth to Quiet than initially meets the eye (http://kotaku.com/theres-a-reason-for-metal-gears-sexy-sniper-what-it-1270166313) so it's possible that the audio file may be part of her backstory (http://bit.ly/1iLcdn6). Either way, incorporating sexual assault into its storyline puts MGS V in rarefied territory."

And of Ground Zeroes:

http://kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-v-ground-zeroes-the-kotaku-review-1544979401 (potential spoilers)

"A good chunk of the scene in question is actually included in this 2013 Phantom Pain trailer (http://kotaku.com/this-nine-minute-metal-gear-solid-v-trailer-is-pretty-g-512658946), which also contains a scene from The Phantom Paindepicting the brutal electro-shock torture of a second woman [...]

The image of a woman in torn leggings and a bra, strapped to a chair and prodded with electrically-charged batons, is certainly provocative, as is the sort of blood-and-guts splattershow that occurs near the end of Ground Zeroes. But is this really the kind of provocation that benefits the Metal Gear series? Kojima has said that depictions of torture are necessary (http://bit.ly/1kYdxV4) for the kind of revenge tale that The Phantom Pain will tell, but I'm skeptical. In my many years playing video games, I think I've seen enough of the wanton suffering of women. Show me something else, Kojima."

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 01:15 AM
Meh, I don't care...

After Aveline, Ubi has proved to me that they are afraid to take the extra leap with MAIN female protagonist.

And no, don't say Elise because the game still essentially has Arno as the Main character.

Fatal-Feit
09-21-2014, 01:21 AM
After Aveline, Ubi has proved to me that they are afraid to take the extra leap with MAIN female protagonist.

What the what? With Liberation, they've proven anything but that.

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 01:35 AM
What the what? With Liberation, they've proven anything but that.

Well not enough in my eyes...Liberation had too many flaws, and Aveline was kinda boring to me as well.

But that part is subjective. Point is, Liberation could've been WAY better but Ubi didn't want to take the chance.

I-Like-Pie45
09-21-2014, 01:45 AM
I wouldn't mind female character if she had hairy arms and masculine hands/feet and was 6 ft 2

you can't accuse anyone of sexualizing that

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 01:56 AM
Well not enough in my eyes...Liberation had too many flaws, and Aveline was kinda boring to me as well.

But that part is subjective. Point is, Liberation could've been WAY better but Ubi didn't want to take the chance.

Wait, what? What female-related risks could they have taken to improve the game?

Also, about Quiet, I don't really mind the attire. I feel "sexualization" really depends on her character. She'll probably be a badass, might even have a deep character. Either way I'll be fine with whatever she wears, her looking good is just icing on the cake imo.

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 02:04 AM
@Rpr

I'm just saying they didn't really expand her as a character...she felt just there.

I felt more interested in Gerald & Agate really.

And no, not because they're dudes.

Fatal-Feit
09-21-2014, 02:05 AM
Well not enough in my eyes...Liberation had too many flaws, and Aveline was kinda boring to me as well.

But that part is subjective. Point is, Liberation could've been WAY better but Ubi didn't want to take the chance.

Fair point. It is subjective.

The way I see it, they're trying to take these extra steps without stepping over the boundaries and upsetting the fans. While equality between gender is something that shouldn't have to be argued, let's be real here, the large majority of AC fans, whether or not it's us, expects a badass white* male* Assassin as the lead role.

It's sort of sad, but while Connor is liked by many, he was also criticized by many others. And when Edward showed up, the majority went absolutely crazy. ''Assassin's Creed is back'' they said. ''He's just like Ezio!'' they cried. Yeah... You can also see a lot of that with Arno as well.

The 18th Century Saga is more or less a perfect example of the fans' reception for these changes. Despite arguably having a better story and cast, people claim it to be a dark time for the franchise.

JustPlainQuirky
09-21-2014, 02:07 AM
Liberation was terrible regardless of the gender of the protagonist.


the large majority of AC fans, whether or not it's us, expects a badass white* male* Assassin as the lead role.

pretty sure the large majority of AC fans wants a Feudal Japan game and nobody expects the protagonist to be a white dude.



It's sort of sad, but while Connor is liked by many, he was also criticized by many others. And when Edward showed up, the majority went absolutely crazy. ''Assassin's Creed is back'' they said. ''He's just like Ezio!'' they cried. Yeah...

And you suspect this has to do with his race and not characterization?

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 02:09 AM
@Rpr

I'm just saying they didn't really expand her as a character...she felt just there.

I felt more interested in Gerald & Agate really.

And no, not because they're dudes.

But what risks, specifically, could Ubisoft have taken that would have improved her character?


Yeah Quiet's outfit is ridiculous and if it were Ubisoft or any other games company there would be outrage amongst the gaming community and Polygon and Kotaku would explode but they seem happy to ignore it because it's Kojima.

I mean seriously, there was MASSIVE outrage over the Unity co-op thing that turned out to be a misinterpretation by games 'journalists' (I still can't believe how many got their facts wrong) but a blind eye is being turned on that real issue...

I'm fully confident that if they have a female protagonist in the main games then, like Aveline, her outfit will be fine. And even if the outfit was slightly 'sexy', I wouldn't mind as long as it wasn't over the top and her character wasn't undermined by it. It would be a great shame and a missed opportunity if there never is a female protagonist. And is it just me or have discussion like this gotten more heated in recent years? A few years ago when I saw discussions about it on the wiki it was all positive and people were actually clamouring together for it but the issue seems a hotter topic now. This particular discussion is much more civil though. Let's keep it that way.

It's because Ubisoft is a more refuted company. It's bully tactics, just target the most vulnerable. They knew Ubisoft was nearing an EA level of business practices, so people would roll on the bandwagon just to subconsciously/consciously spite a company they heard 1 or 2 bad things about most likely out of context.

LieutenantRex
09-21-2014, 02:10 AM
If we get a playable female character, all we're gonna have is this:

Sappy love-story between her and her Templar boyfriend
Getting mad at her dad for not letting her be an assassin
An interesting but unwanted lesson about women in pre-modern times dealing with their periods
And gossiping with their target after they stabbed them

JustPlainQuirky
09-21-2014, 02:11 AM
I love you Lieutenant.

Please, marry me.

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 02:20 AM
Fair point. It is subjective.

The way I see it, they're trying to take these extra steps without stepping over the boundaries and upsetting the fans. While equality between gender is something that shouldn't have to be argued, let's be real here, the large majority of AC fans, whether or not it's us, expects a badass white* male* Assassin as the lead role.

It's sort of sad, but while Connor is liked by many, he was also criticized by many others. And when Edward showed up, the majority went absolutely crazy. ''Assassin's Creed is back'' they said. ''He's just like Ezio!'' they cried. Yeah... You can also see a lot of that with Arno as well.

The 18th Century Saga is more or less a perfect example of the fans' reception for these changes. Despite arguably having a better story and cast, people claim it to be a dark time for the franchise.

Well it's easy to say a certain series is in a "dark age" after being subjected to one format for a number of years.
( I.e The Ezio Trilogy)

I don't care about what race a protagonist is, because I still would feel the same for Connor, Adewale, and Aveline...the whole race thing just complicated it to some people.

I personally don't care what RACE or GENDER you are, If I consider you a BA...you are one.
( I.e Connor & Elise ( Pre-judgement) )

And although there's been a somewhat over-saturation with 18th Century, it's the hidden messages within the Characters that make it shine IMO.

Fatal-Feit
09-21-2014, 02:24 AM
pretty sure the large majority of AC fans wants a Feudal Japan game and nobody expects the protagonist to be a white dude.

I'm convinced that anyone who wants Feudal Japan are most likely a weeab. And weeabs believe Japanese people to be white.


And you suspect this has to do with his race and not characterization?

His characterization was reflective of his race and culture.

JustPlainQuirky
09-21-2014, 02:26 AM
His characterization was reflective of his race and culture.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif

not all natives are the same, yo

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 02:28 AM
@Rpr

It's hard to say really...

Well for one, they could've had her built up the brotherhood in Orleans, along with letting her have a firm understanding of the Creed and her place in it.

The whole time she was like: "Where's the Company Man?"

No emotion, No tension, No build-up...just nothing.

I'll give it to Ubi in that she's not your usual Mary Sue and actually kicked some ***.

But in the end, something just was missing with Aveline...can't explain what though.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 02:29 AM
I'm convinced that anyone who wants Feudal Japan are most likely a weeab. And weeabs believe Japanese people to be white.



His characterization was reflective of his race and culture.

I want Feudal Japan, and I don't even like anime. Come at me.

Also, characterization can't be reflective of race. Native American's can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect. because those are only beliefs, something people aren't born with even if some like to pretend. They can have any personality trait that any other race can, just because you're a certain race doesn't mean you can't be a certain way. It obviously makes sense that the story and setting of someone like Connor would suggest he act a certain way, but the denouncement of his character is just that: the denouncement of his character, not race.

Fatal-Feit
09-21-2014, 02:33 AM
If we get a playable female character, all we're gonna have is this:

Sappy love-story between her and her Templar boyfriend
Getting mad at her dad for not letting her be an assassin
An interesting but unwanted lesson about women in pre-modern times dealing with their periods
And gossiping with their target after they stabbed them

LMFAO!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif

not all natives are the same, yo

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Well it's easy to say a certain series is in a "dark age" after being subjected to one format for a number of years.
( I.e The Ezio Trilogy)

I don't care about what race a protagonist is, because I still would feel the same for Connor, Adewale, and Aveline...the whole race thing just complicated it to some people.

I personally don't care what RACE or GENDER you are, If I consider you a BA...you are one.
( I.e Connor & Elise ( Pre-judgement) )

And although there's been a somewhat over-saturation with 18th Century, it's the hidden messages within the Characters that make it shine IMO.

Hey, no quarrel here. I agree, but unfortunately, not a lot of people are of the same mind.


I want Feudal Japan, and I don't even like anime. Come at me.

I would, but you're different from the people on the anime forums. You know what you're expecting from the setting.


Also, characterization can't be reflective of race. Native American's can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect. because those are only beliefs, something people aren't born with even if some like to pretend. They can have any personality trait that any other race can, just because you're a certain race doesn't mean you can't be a certain way. It obviously makes sense that the story and setting of someone like Connor would suggest he act a certain way, but the denouncement of his character is just that: the denouncement of his character, not race.

Yeah, Connor isn't your typical Hollywood Native American, so it was unfair of me to say that. To be fair, what I meant was that Connor is the product of his environment and culture. And skipping around not growing up on colonial soil, being raised to hunt, and to always speak his mind, Connor's facial features aren't exactly what appeals to the mass either. Not that I'm saying native americans can't be handsome, they aren't the kind of attractiveness the mass expects.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 02:33 AM
@Rpr

It's hard to say really...

Well for one, they could've had her built up the brotherhood in Orleans, along with letting her have a firm understanding of the Creed and her place in it.

The whole time she was like: "Where's the Company Man?"

No emotion, No tension, No build-up...just nothing.

I'll give it to Ubi in that she's not your usual Mary Sue and actually kicked some ***.

But in the end, something just was missing with Aveline...can't explain what though.

Nothing you listed even comes close to a risk. I 100% guarantee you that any non-troll would have been completely fine with her building up the brotherhood or delving more into the Creed. She may have been a bad character, but I wouldn't equate having a bad character to not taking risks. The writers were just bad, at least then.

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 02:36 AM
What I absolutely love about 18th is that it proved more diversity in not just the Races and Characters but the Creed as well.

Regarding Feudal Japan, I'm don't mind it...but I hate how fans request for it non-stop like it will revive this franchise or it's just the norm to say.

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 02:40 AM
But what risks, specifically, could Ubisoft have taken that would have improved her character?



It's because Ubisoft is a more refuted company. It's bully tactics, just target the most vulnerable. They knew Ubisoft was nearing an EA level of business practices, so people would roll on the bandwagon just to subconsciously/consciously spite a company they heard 1 or 2 bad things about most likely out of context.

Bully tactics? Vulnerable?

Ubisoft is not being targeted by "bullies". It's being criticised by its own fans, and the reason they're frustrated is that they expect better from Ubisoft.

This is one of the few companies of its size and age that has made big moves to lead diversity in gaming. They made Beyond Good & Evil, only the second game to feature a black female protagonist in history (Urban Chaos being the first, and there are only four in total). They resurrected Prince of Persia and made him unashamed Persian, at a time when US paranoia with Muslim Middle-Eastern countries and Iran in particular was at its height. Then they made Altair, a member of a Muslim sect assassinating mainly Christian Templar targets in a Middle-Eastern war, which was pretty ballsy considering that Western countries were (and remain) in the throes of their anti-Muslim jitters. They made Liberation with Aveline, another black female protagonist, thus making Ubisoft responsible for 50% of those four female black protags. They put a lots of playable female characters into Rayman Legends, and made Child Of Light. They made Freedom Cry, one of a very small number of games to ever feature playable black men, let alone as sole protagonists.

This is a great record, although it's also mixed. There's bravery in that list, but also timidity. Prince of Persia was quickly whitewashed in the second game, turned into a nu-metal angsty character almost totally stripped of his identity and charm, and unrecognisable in tone. Altair looked and sounded like a white American, and was revealed to be of mixed Muslim and Christian parentage. Similarly, Aveline was born of black and white parents. We don't need to have the arguments again, and we're all aware of how both sides feel: one defends the choices on story grounds, the other believes they were profit-driven choices. No matter which side you feel is right, the point is that those are the feelings.

This makes Ubisoft exactly the sort of company in which customers ought to be disappointed, and the one of the big publishers which would most attract requests for more diversity. Ubisoft is the big company which has shown itself to be most willing to address these issues. I criticise Ubisoft precisely because I like them so much. I know they can do better, and I believe they will, but I want them to get there faster. I hope that if lots of us talk about how we feel that companies will register it and think about it. And that is happening, so it's not as if it doesn't work. The developers of Saints Row, of all games, recently agreed with many of Anita Sarkeesian's criticisms of its games (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137124-Saints-Row-Writer-Supports-Change-for-the-Representation-of-Women-in-Games)which is proof of the effect of this conversation. So I know it's irritating for a lot of people, and they're sick of hearing about it, but it's not pointless, and what you perceive as attacks can actually be constructive.

Namikaze_17
09-21-2014, 02:41 AM
@Rpr

That's why I said it's hard to say.

And I really mean 'Risk' in that they're most likely not do another female lead role, especially after how liberation was.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 02:48 AM
Yeah Quiet's outfit is ridiculous and if it were Ubisoft or any other games company there would be outrage amongst the gaming community and Polygon and Kotaku would explode but they seem happy to ignore it because it's Kojima.

I mean seriously, there was MASSIVE outrage over the Unity co-op thing that turned out to be a misinterpretation by games 'journalists' (I still can't believe how many got their facts wrong) but a blind eye is being turned on that real issue...

I'm fully confident that if they have a female protagonist in the main games then, like Aveline, her outfit will be fine. And even if the outfit was slightly 'sexy', I wouldn't mind as long as it wasn't over the top and her character wasn't undermined by it. It would be a great shame and a missed opportunity if there never is a female protagonist. And is it just me or have discussion like this gotten more heated in recent years? A few years ago when I saw discussions about it on the wiki it was all positive and people were actually clamouring together for it but the issue seems a hotter topic now. This particular discussion is much more civil though. Let's keep it that way.

You're not wrong. I think the conversation has become much more heated now -- the prevalence of hating on supposed SJWs, white knights, and so on has increased and so anything that seeks to include more women is immediately labeled like that. secondly, gamers have gotten upset over game journalism and as a result, even if they bring up valid criticisms, they're upset by it.

I assume that's why the idea of a female Assassins has become so much more "controversial" which is ridiculous.

But yeah... for some reason, I feel as though the MRA, anti-SJW/white knight, and a multitude of other things has led to it being a hotter topic. Who knows?


No, they have criticised it, lots of times. Some of the readers became angry about how many articles the issue was spawning. Here are some of those articles.

http://kotaku.com/theres-a-reason-for-metal-gears-sexy-sniper-what-it-1270166313

"I'll be interested to know what it is, in this character's story, that leads her to go to a battlefield scantily clad, and how that is a statement of empowerment or one that repudiates other female combatants. Right now it sounds like a bunch of defensive, retrofitted nonsense."

http://kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-v-gets-rare-sexual-violence-ratings-1495802973

"Kojima has remarked that there will be more depth to Quiet than initially meets the eye (http://kotaku.com/theres-a-reason-for-metal-gears-sexy-sniper-what-it-1270166313) so it's possible that the audio file may be part of her backstory (http://bit.ly/1iLcdn6). Either way, incorporating sexual assault into its storyline puts MGS V in rarefied territory."

And of Ground Zeroes:

http://kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-v-ground-zeroes-the-kotaku-review-1544979401 (potential spoilers)

"A good chunk of the scene in question is actually included in this 2013 Phantom Pain trailer (http://kotaku.com/this-nine-minute-metal-gear-solid-v-trailer-is-pretty-g-512658946), which also contains a scene from The Phantom Paindepicting the brutal electro-shock torture of a second woman [...]

The image of a woman in torn leggings and a bra, strapped to a chair and prodded with electrically-charged batons, is certainly provocative, as is the sort of blood-and-guts splattershow that occurs near the end of Ground Zeroes. But is this really the kind of provocation that benefits the Metal Gear series? Kojima has said that depictions of torture are necessary (http://bit.ly/1kYdxV4) for the kind of revenge tale that The Phantom Pain will tell, but I'm skeptical. In my many years playing video games, I think I've seen enough of the wanton suffering of women. Show me something else, Kojima."

I'm glad to see it IS being justly criticized. And that one guy is wrong. A victimized woman is no longer "shocking" considering it's so overused.

Lots of people hate Anita Sarkeesian but regardless of whether she's fake or not, she has made some great points such as females typically getting less characterization aside from stereotypical things and, most relevantly, women being abused to create a dark atmosphere.

Whatever supposed deeper message behind Quiet is lost since the majority of females in entertainment are dressed to varying degrees of the same thing -- from comics to games to whatever. Power Girl literally has a hole on her chest to show cleavage because "she couldn't think of a symbol" -- so there has to be a hole? I don't get how you get from A to B with that leap of logic.

And I have no doubt she'll be B.A. -- but the cleavage-y B.A. chick has been done to death. It's practically a cliche now and that outfit is utterly ridiculous and impractical. Dem boobies be bouncing all over the place! Pretty sure that wouldn't be comfortable in the slightest (and most girls I know say that it would hurt to run without support soooo...)


Wait, what? What female-related risks could they have taken to improve the game?

Also, about Quiet, I don't really mind the attire. I feel "sexualization" really depends on her character. She'll probably be a badass, might even have a deep character. Either way I'll be fine with whatever she wears, her looking good is just icing on the cake imo.

See above. I think the actor they have playing her (and thus, by extension, Quiet herself) is really pretty. I don't get why they need such a ridiculous outfit to emphasize it. If she was wearing a bit more such as pants designed for combat, even if form fitting, would make so much more sense and she would still look pretty, be a bad ***, and retain her femininity. Heck, if she was wearing shorts and a sports bra it wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous (still a bit impractical but not as bad as a thong up her butt during combat)


I want Feudal Japan, and I don't even like anime. Come at me.

No. CHINA CHINA CHINA! Much better for parkouring around!

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 02:50 AM
@Rpr

That's why I said it's hard to say.

And I really mean 'Risk' in that they're most likely not do another female lead role, especially after how liberation was.

Given that Ubisoft says it's working on three AC games at any given time, I would hope that at least one of those is a game with a woman as the protagonist.

I would also bet that Ubisoft knows exactly what they did wrong with Liberation and why the public didn't buy it. They'd already sold a load of copies to Vita owners, and it did great on that system, but that meant the story was known and YouTubed to hell by the time it came out on the major platforms. The game was poorly designed and couldn't possibly review well, but worse they allowed it to be released with the most chronic bugs the series has ever known. It was not promoted with anything like the power of a normal AC campaign.

I'm sure nobody in the company believes it was about ovaries.




Whatever supposed deeper message behind Quiet is lost since the majority of females in entertainment are dressed to varying degrees of the same thing -- from comics to games to whatever. Power Girl literally has a hole on her chest to show cleavage because "she couldn't think of a symbol" -- so there has to be a hole? I don't get how you get from A to B with that leap of logic.

And I have no doubt she'll be B.A. -- but the cleavage-y B.A. chick has been done to death. It's practically a cliche now and that outfit is utterly ridiculous and impractical. Dem boobies be bouncing all over the place! Pretty sure that wouldn't be comfortable in the slightest (and most girls I know say that it would hurt to run without support soooo...)

Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear out there that "the feminazis" are going to take all the sexy away, and fill gaming with women who are covered up to the neck at all times. I wish there was a way to explain to those people that this isn't the case at all. There's no automatic problem with sexy characters in revealing clothing, as part of a numerous and varied range of female characters, and if there's criticism then the conversation isn't going to kill anyone.

I'm sure we will go through a period of companies feeling like they've got to include more women, and being perhaps over-careful about how they design them. It'll be a necessary stage to get out of this mess that the major houses of games and comics have made. After that, things will level out and everyone will get what they want. There'll still be the Dan Housers and Suda-51s kicking out deliberately edgy games for everyone, and if anything they'll be even more keen to double-down on that shtick.

Shahkulu101
09-21-2014, 03:11 AM
Oh God Dan Houser and his embarrassingly ham-fisted 'satire'. The GTA games really get on my nerves with how smart they think they are, and although there are some genuinely funny bits, it's delivered with as much finesse as a hammer to the face.

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 03:26 AM
What do people think of Quiet's (from MGSV) outfit? To me, it's completely and utterly ridiculous. People have been defending but when you see how she's dressed and how the men are fully decked out in gear, it's pretty bad. People will bring up the male nudity in the games' past but the thing about that is that it wasn't the whole game. Quiet will be, presumably, dressed that day for the majority of the game.

I've been trying to show that it's the same thing as the dumb bikini armor present in various RPG games or comic book hero outfits (males usually being covered, females exposed) but people have already sworn their allegiance to the Church of Kojima. nothing against the guy, the gameplay looks fantastic, but his initial response was that they purposely made it as sexual and revealing as possible 'cause cosplay. Anyway... it's funny because people have accused me for calling out Ubisoft and getting on their case about the lack of women. I'm not doing it because I think Ubi is sexist or bad or whatever but based on Liberation, I'm pretty confident that other female Assassins, on a main console game like Unity or the next one, would look more like THIS

Because the Metal Gear series has some of the best female character in videogames, if Kojima tells me there's a reason for her to dress like that I tend to believe.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 05:27 AM
Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear out there that "the feminazis" are going to take all the sexy away, and fill gaming with women who are covered up to the neck at all times. I wish there was a way to explain to those people that this isn't the case at all. There's no automatic problem with sexy characters in revealing clothing, as part of a numerous and varied range of female characters, and if there's criticism then the conversation isn't going to kill anyone.

I'm sure we will go through a period of companies feeling like they've got to include more women, and being perhaps over-careful about how they design them. It'll be a necessary stage to get out of this mess that the major houses of games and comics have made. After that, things will level out and everyone will get what they want. There'll still be the Dan Housers and Suda-51s kicking out deliberately edgy games for everyone, and if anything they'll be even more keen to double-down on that shtick.

It's true. Female protagonists and female characters should be as normal as everything else. They shouldn't be special -- I don't want it to be some big achievement when someone writes a female character that's cool and strong. I'm cheering the devs of Tomb Raider on for actually doing things with Lara Croft that I never fathomed would take place. It's like some big achievement and I find it sad that it is. It should be run of the mill.

Society always progresses. Games ARE getting better but they have a long way to go in my opinion.

STDlyMcStudpants
09-21-2014, 06:10 AM
Who cares? Not me
Women have had 'roles' to play throughout the existence of time... i admit it would be pretty cool to be a foxy lady that assassinates with ocean blue eyes..but as long as we are playing a game based on history I think it makes more sense to keep male leads....

I-Like-Pie45
09-21-2014, 06:17 AM
It's all an illuminati conspiracy by racist Ubisoft!

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 07:28 AM
Who cares? Not me
Women have had 'roles' to play throughout the existence of time... i admit it would be pretty cool to be a foxy lady that assassinates with ocean blue eyes..but as long as we are playing a game based on history I think it makes more sense to keep male leads....

THAT'S the right attitude! :rolleyes:

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 08:23 AM
Alex Hutchinson, creative director of Assassin's Creed III, suggested the most requested Assassin's Creed settings, World War II, Feudal Japan and Ancient Egypt, are "the three worst settings for an Assassin's Creed game".

It would appear that the fans are idiots.

I personally wouldn't mind a Feudal Japan game, I actually think it would be absolutely perfect for a female assassin game as women make the most badass ninjas and there is no way to dress her provocatively without making it both historically inaccurate, and against traditional assassin attire.

It's too bad that Ubisoft has basically said it won't happen...

As for WW2, the only people asking that would be f*cking 12 year old boys who know nothing about what makes a good game. WW2 is no place for an assassin's creed game.

Hans684
09-21-2014, 09:08 AM
Alex Hutchinson, creative director of Assassin's Creed III, suggested the most requested Assassin's Creed settings, World War II, Feudal Japan and Ancient Egypt, are "the three worst settings for an Assassin's Creed game".

It would appear that the fans are idiots.

I personally wouldn't mind a Feudal Japan game, I actually think it would be absolutely perfect for a female assassin game as women make the most badass ninjas and there is no way to dress her provocatively without making it both historically inaccurate, and against traditional assassin attire.

It's too bad that Ubisoft has basically said it won't happen...

As for WW2, the only people asking that would be f*cking 12 year old boys who know nothing about what makes a good game. WW2 is no place for an assassin's creed game.

It was said by a creative director, it can easy be shoot down by someone from Ubisoft.

Hans684
09-21-2014, 09:14 AM
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111224143913/assassinscreed/images/8/86/Shao_jun_hello_UW.jpg

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 09:22 AM
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/games/feminist-game-critic-driven-from-home-by-disturbing-online-threats-20140829-109t2y.html

That's a very interesting article.

I for one do not like Sarkeesian, I think she is an overdramatic drama queen that blows everything out of proportion and takes offense from even the simplest of things that are only viewed as racist by the most sensitive of feminists, but it's pretty upsetting that something like this happened to her.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 09:28 AM
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111224143913/assassinscreed/images/8/86/Shao_jun_hello_UW.jpg

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130114/640/sexy_assassins_creed_cosplay_photoshoot_640_08.jpg

Hans684
09-21-2014, 09:42 AM
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/games/feminist-game-critic-driven-from-home-by-disturbing-online-threats-20140829-109t2y.html

That's a very interesting article.

I for one do not like Sarkeesian, I think she is an overdramatic drama queen that blows everything out of proportion and takes offense from even the simplest of things that are only viewed as racist by the most sensitive of feminists, but it's pretty upsetting that something like this happened to her.

It is but here is a feminist that isn't a drama queen.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 12:25 PM
It is but here is a feminist that isn't a drama queen.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w

Problems.

She breaks down who is and isn't a "hardcore" gamer to decide who should be listened to and who should not. This is immediately a problem, but then she uses a definition of playing more than 20 hours a week as a "hardcore gamer". I don't do that. I never have, although there have been rare weeks where I did. Sometimes weeks go by when I play no games at all, just like there are weeks when I watch no films or listen to no LPs, or read no books. Anybody who wants to tell me I don't love games, films, music or literature, or that my views are less relevant, would get a pretty angry response from me. Must I define my life by a culture to be part of it? She uses this yardstick of a study of "hardcore" gamers among USA college freshman as evidence that the gender gap is 7:1 male to female, and says that "looks like it's constant". This is a huge abuse of statistics.

She goes on to describe the games industry to be under assault from "an army of gender activists and hipsters with degrees in cultural studies". There is no army trying to hurt games. I'm not a gender activist, or a hipster, and nor do I have a degree. I'm not saying any of those things are bad -- I'm just refuting it because I see the trick. The assertion here is that privileged outsiders are responsible for all this, and it's nonsense. We are you. We're on the inside, and we always were.

She tries to say that we critics "ignore that gaming has become more inclusive", that "there are games that fit a vast array of preferences", that there are "appropriately garbed" female protagonists. Because there are so many, right? Enough that I should just shut up now, right? But no, because the "gender police have become so harsh, intolerant and relentless". Yeah, you'd better crush me, because give me an inch and I'll take a mile. "It's not enough for them that women are on both sides of the video screen". Curses! She discovered our plan for "the male video game culture to die"!

What was that you said about not being a drama queen?

This thing about insisting games are and always should be a male preserve is strange. I find it amazing that a feminist would sit there and use the mirror argument of "imagine a bunch of gender critics blasting a female preserve like Oprah or The View". If by 'gender critics' she means feminists, they do! Or does she mean men? I hope to God she's not trying to say that men don't criticise female spaces and leave them be, because that would be laughable. She uses the "true gamer" thing at the end. A true gamer is a "smart man", or a "cool girl". This is the No True Scotsman fallacy laid bare, and what a horrible idea she presents: to have games culture as a playpen where nobody can criticise anything.

We often used to hear the displeasure of games fans that their culture was not viewed as an artform. Well, here it is. The biggest part in the art world (galleries, film, theatre, literature), the thing that gets the most time and attention, is the discussion: dissection, criticism, praise and dispute. You wanted it, you got it. Games have to grow up and accept that if they want to stand alongside artforms. Have the guts to accept that. Don't behave like you want to regress back into some kind of clubhouse. It can't be done, and the desire for it says nothing good about you.

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 12:40 PM
Who cares? Not me
Women have had 'roles' to play throughout the existence of time... i admit it would be pretty cool to be a foxy lady that assassinates with ocean blue eyes..but as long as we are playing a game based on history I think it makes more sense to keep male leads....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih and more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_piracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia_Plater

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juana_Galán

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavia_(queen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rani_Lakshmibai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trưng_Sisters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Gwendolen

This list goes on and on. This idea that it's "not historically accurate" to have female protags in AC is unsupportable.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 12:42 PM
She is definitely a drama queen also, but I think what Hans meant, if I may, is that she is more placid and composed during her video, whereas in Sarkeesian's case, she is quite evidently angry/upset about it and tries very hard to get people on her side.

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 12:48 PM
She is definitely a drama queen also, but I think what Hans meant, if I may, is that she is more placid and composed during her video, whereas in Sarkeesian's case, she is quite evidently angry/upset about it and tries very hard to get people on her side.

That's not true. Sarkeesian's face is absolutely composed throughout her videos, and she doesn't show anger or signs of being upset at all. She remains dispassionate.

I really don't like that argument, though. You're putting conditions on the person who is being poorly served by the culture, and that's a common trick that's been used against people for decades to discredit them: the "angry black man", the "angry black woman", the "bra-burning feminist". This is the men acting like gatekeepers again, and it's paternalistic: "I'm not listening to you until you calm down". Focus on the content.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 12:54 PM
I don't listen to Sarkeesian because she's an obnoxious, biased, close-minded, angry, oversensitive little princess but that's just me.

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 01:04 PM
Anita like the rest of the so called SJW is an extremist, and extremism have never done anything good for humankind.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 01:08 PM
Anita like the rest of the so called SJW is an extremist, and extremism have never done anything good for humankind.

This is the most pragmatic sentence on this thread.
I 200% agree
I tell the extremists of my own beliefs to stfu because they make the rest of us look bad.

Stormpen
09-21-2014, 01:10 PM
I don't think having or not having female assassins in co-op mode is really a big issue, because the main character is a man anyway. The whole gender thing is a frill. What I would like is for assassin's creed to introduce a woman that isn't a potential love interest, who plays an important role in the game. And who isn't a sex worker. Or managing sex workers. Yes, Claudia, I'm looking at you. :p Nothing wrong with sex workers, but really seeing the way guards act when you use courtesans/ romanies/ dancers on them usually makes me laugh, and sometimes makes me want to assassinate them all anyway. :p

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 01:27 PM
Anita like the rest of the so called SJW is an extremist, and extremism have never done anything good for humankind.

I hate the SJW tag, as though someone who would fight for social justice would be doing a bad thing, but I know who you're using it against and I'm in that camp. I'm not an extremist for wanting better games.

Martin Luther King was an extremist in his day. Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist, and he was jailed as a member of the military wing of the ANC, involved in their bombing campaign. Did neither of these men do anything good for humankind? These are ridiculous comparisons to make in a thread about video games, but I'm quite fond of extremists so we can have that conversation if you want!

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 01:54 PM
While Nelson Mandela did some questionable things in his younger days, neither he or Martin Luther King were drama queens, seeing evil everywhere, blaming men for everything bad in the world, accusing every men of being rapists by nature, disregarding every notion of logic, accusing everyone who disagrees with them as being some sort of Nazis, nor did they used lies and fabricated evidence to support their claims, and they were educated individuals who knew what they were talking about and suffered on the skin the things they were fighting against, most of these so called SJW were born and live in a much better world and most of them never suffered any discrimination whatsoever, they are all theory with little knowledge of what they are talking about, extremism usually comes from ignorance.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 02:13 PM
I'm not an extremist for wanting better games.
Implying the games would be better if they had playable females?
That's discrimination against men, I'm going to become a masculanist now. Masculanist? Idk... what would a male version of a feminist be?


I'm quite fond of extremists so we can have that conversation if you want!
Please have that conversation elsewhere.

D.I.D.
09-21-2014, 02:32 PM
While Nelson Mandela did some questionable things in his younger days, neither he or Martin Luther King were drama queens, seeing evil everywhere, blaming men for everything bad in the world, accusing every men of being rapists by nature, disregarding every notion of logic, accusing everyone who disagrees with them as being some sort of Nazis, nor did they used lies and fabricated evidence to support their claims, and they were educated individuals who knew what they were talking about and suffered on the skin the things they were fighting against, most of these so called SJW were born and live in a much better world and most of them never suffered any discrimination whatsoever, they are all theory with little knowledge of what they are talking about, extremism usually comes from ignorance.

As I said, I don't want to make the comparison between giants of history like them and ordinary people like me having our say about video games. I was just taking issue with you saying that extremism has never done anything good for humankind. Acting in a way that draws out the tag "extremist" is often the only way to get things done.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know where to start. Leaving aside the giant straw feminist that calls all men Nazi rapists... "Never suffered any discrimination whatsoever" floors me, though. The death threats, the rape threats, the bomb threats? These were not "lies" by the way, all have now been confirmed by the police department.

I don't know how you can possibly know what background people come from, all these people who you've never seen. It's easy to assume everyone you disagree with is just some coddled ex-student from the suburbs, but that's not the case.


Implying the games would be better if they had playable females?
That's discrimination against men, I'm going to become a masculanist now. Masculanist? Idk... what would a male version of a feminist be?


Please have that conversation elsewhere.

No, as I said in my very first post in this thread:

"I care about diversity as a matter of inclusivity, but also for the quality of the games and their stories. If designers have to think about demographic range, maybe they'll be encouraged to make better characters too. Right now, they are really poorly formed."

A male version of a feminist is a feminist. Feminism is about achieving parity of power, opportunity and outcomes as far as possible for all genders. It has a female-related name because it was a movement started on behalf of women, since they get the raw deal right now, but that doesn't mean it's Team Lady versus Team Gentleman.

Hans684
09-21-2014, 02:56 PM
Problems.

She breaks down who is and isn't a "hardcore" gamer to decide who should be listened to and who should not. This is immediately a problem, but then she uses a definition of playing more than 20 hours a week as a "hardcore gamer". I don't do that. I never have, although there have been rare weeks where I did. Sometimes weeks go by when I play no games at all, just like there are weeks when I watch no films or listen to no LPs, or read no books. Anybody who wants to tell me I don't love games, films, music or literature, or that my views are less relevant, would get a pretty angry response from me. Must I define my life by a culture to be part of it? She uses this yardstick of a study of "hardcore" gamers among USA college freshman as evidence that the gender gap is 7:1 male to female, and says that "looks like it's constant". This is a huge abuse of statistics.

She goes on to describe the games industry to be under assault from "an army of gender activists and hipsters with degrees in cultural studies". There is no army trying to hurt games. I'm not a gender activist, or a hipster, and nor do I have a degree. I'm not saying any of those things are bad -- I'm just refuting it because I see the trick. The assertion here is that privileged outsiders are responsible for all this, and it's nonsense. We are you. We're on the inside, and we always were.

She tries to say that we critics "ignore that gaming has become more inclusive", that "there are games that fit a vast array of preferences", that there are "appropriately garbed" female protagonists. Because there are so many, right? Enough that I should just shut up now, right? But no, because the "gender police have become so harsh, intolerant and relentless". Yeah, you'd better crush me, because give me an inch and I'll take a mile. "It's not enough for them that women are on both sides of the video screen". Curses! She discovered our plan for "the male video game culture to die"!

What was that you said about not being a drama queen?

This thing about insisting games are and always should be a male preserve is strange. I find it amazing that a feminist would sit there and use the mirror argument of "imagine a bunch of gender critics blasting a female preserve like Oprah or The View". If by 'gender critics' she means feminists, they do! Or does she mean men? I hope to God she's not trying to say that men don't criticise female spaces and leave them be, because that would be laughable. She uses the "true gamer" thing at the end. A true gamer is a "smart man", or a "cool girl". This is the No True Scotsman fallacy laid bare, and what a horrible idea she presents: to have games culture as a playpen where nobody can criticise anything.

We often used to hear the displeasure of games fans that their culture was not viewed as an artform. Well, here it is. The biggest part in the art world (galleries, film, theatre, literature), the thing that gets the most time and attention, is the discussion: dissection, criticism, praise and dispute. You wanted it, you got it. Games have to grow up and accept that if they want to stand alongside artforms. Have the guts to accept that. Don't behave like you want to regress back into some kind of clubhouse. It can't be done, and the desire for it says nothing good about you.

And you don't think I can see errors myself? Com on. I don't even want to discuss this, I don't have a single problem with playing females or aliens or goats. So I'm not going to say anymore. Don't even think I agree with absolutely everything and is as hocked on the case that your as seen by the drama the video created. As said, I'm done.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 06:42 PM
Bully tactics? Vulnerable?

Ubisoft is not being targeted by "bullies". It's being criticised by its own fans, and the reason they're frustrated is that they expect better from Ubisoft.

This is one of the few companies of its size and age that has made big moves to lead diversity in gaming. They made Beyond Good & Evil, only the second game to feature a black female protagonist in history (Urban Chaos being the first, and there are only four in total). They resurrected Prince of Persia and made him unashamed Persian, at a time when US paranoia with Muslim Middle-Eastern countries and Iran in particular was at its height. Then they made Altair, a member of a Muslim sect assassinating mainly Christian Templar targets in a Middle-Eastern war, which was pretty ballsy considering that Western countries were (and remain) in the throes of their anti-Muslim jitters. They made Liberation with Aveline, another black female protagonist, thus making Ubisoft responsible for 50% of those four female black protags. They put a lots of playable female characters into Rayman Legends, and made Child Of Light. They made Freedom Cry, one of a very small number of games to ever feature playable black men, let alone as sole protagonists.

This is a great record, although it's also mixed. There's bravery in that list, but also timidity. Prince of Persia was quickly whitewashed in the second game, turned into a nu-metal angsty character almost totally stripped of his identity and charm, and unrecognisable in tone. Altair looked and sounded like a white American, and was revealed to be of mixed Muslim and Christian parentage. Similarly, Aveline was born of black and white parents. We don't need to have the arguments again, and we're all aware of how both sides feel: one defends the choices on story grounds, the other believes they were profit-driven choices. No matter which side you feel is right, the point is that those are the feelings.

This makes Ubisoft exactly the sort of company in which customers ought to be disappointed, and the one of the big publishers which would most attract requests for more diversity. Ubisoft is the big company which has shown itself to be most willing to address these issues. I criticise Ubisoft precisely because I like them so much. I know they can do better, and I believe they will, but I want them to get there faster. I hope that if lots of us talk about how we feel that companies will register it and think about it. And that is happening, so it's not as if it doesn't work. The developers of Saints Row, of all games, recently agreed with many of Anita Sarkeesian's criticisms of its games (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137124-Saints-Row-Writer-Supports-Change-for-the-Representation-of-Women-in-Games)which is proof of the effect of this conversation. So I know it's irritating for a lot of people, and they're sick of hearing about it, but it's not pointless, and what you perceive as attacks can actually be constructive.

My point was that a simple misunderstanding was blown out of proportion because Ubisoft had an iffy track record and as a result they were labelled "sexist" by many on forums and in the media, and there's probably still those that hold the same convictions despite their later statements. Don't get me wrong, they have an iffy track record for a reason, they aren't the most pristine examples of pro-consumerism. But what makes the entire thing an example of bully tactics, is that despite whatever Ubisoft had done in the past, it didn't give levity to the accusations against them but people rode the bandwagon regardless because of Ubisoft's public image. They were specifically targeted due to mob mentality, and bullying.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 07:05 PM
Problems.

She breaks down who is and isn't a "hardcore" gamer to decide who should be listened to and who should not. This is immediately a problem, but then she uses a definition of playing more than 20 hours a week as a "hardcore gamer". I don't do that. I never have, although there have been rare weeks where I did. Sometimes weeks go by when I play no games at all, just like there are weeks when I watch no films or listen to no LPs, or read no books. Anybody who wants to tell me I don't love games, films, music or literature, or that my views are less relevant, would get a pretty angry response from me. Must I define my life by a culture to be part of it? She uses this yardstick of a study of "hardcore" gamers among USA college freshman as evidence that the gender gap is 7:1 male to female, and says that "looks like it's constant". This is a huge abuse of statistics.

She goes on to describe the games industry to be under assault from "an army of gender activists and hipsters with degrees in cultural studies". There is no army trying to hurt games. I'm not a gender activist, or a hipster, and nor do I have a degree. I'm not saying any of those things are bad -- I'm just refuting it because I see the trick. The assertion here is that privileged outsiders are responsible for all this, and it's nonsense. We are you. We're on the inside, and we always were.

She tries to say that we critics "ignore that gaming has become more inclusive", that "there are games that fit a vast array of preferences", that there are "appropriately garbed" female protagonists. Because there are so many, right? Enough that I should just shut up now, right? But no, because the "gender police have become so harsh, intolerant and relentless". Yeah, you'd better crush me, because give me an inch and I'll take a mile. "It's not enough for them that women are on both sides of the video screen". Curses! She discovered our plan for "the male video game culture to die"!

What was that you said about not being a drama queen?

This thing about insisting games are and always should be a male preserve is strange. I find it amazing that a feminist would sit there and use the mirror argument of "imagine a bunch of gender critics blasting a female preserve like Oprah or The View". If by 'gender critics' she means feminists, they do! Or does she mean men? I hope to God she's not trying to say that men don't criticise female spaces and leave them be, because that would be laughable. She uses the "true gamer" thing at the end. A true gamer is a "smart man", or a "cool girl". This is the No True Scotsman fallacy laid bare, and what a horrible idea she presents: to have games culture as a playpen where nobody can criticise anything.

We often used to hear the displeasure of games fans that their culture was not viewed as an artform. Well, here it is. The biggest part in the art world (galleries, film, theatre, literature), the thing that gets the most time and attention, is the discussion: dissection, criticism, praise and dispute. You wanted it, you got it. Games have to grow up and accept that if they want to stand alongside artforms. Have the guts to accept that. Don't behave like you want to regress back into some kind of clubhouse. It can't be done, and the desire for it says nothing good about you.

Agreed. Just because games have gotten better recently, doesn't mean we should just be like "GOOD ENOUGH!" That's a silly notion. For every reimagined Lara Croft and surprising roster of characters in Hyrule Warriors -- you can find a landslide of games with similar male leads OR games where the women are treated as sexual objects and.or mostly useless. Also, I often don't plays games for weeks at a time like you mentioned. Sometimes I play for long periods of time. It just depends. I would still consider myself a gamer if I didn't hate how most gamers seem to suck. But yes, I am a gamer for lack of a better term.

And holy sh*t I'm quoting that bold part and posting it as a status. That is fantastic.


Anita like the rest of the so called SJW is an extremist, and extremism have never done anything good for humankind.

You say on the forums for a game where the protagonists MURDER people in the name of freedom and, gasp, social justice. :rolleyes:


I don't think having or not having female assassins in co-op mode is really a big issue, because the main character is a man anyway. The whole gender thing is a frill. What I would like is for assassin's creed to introduce a woman that isn't a potential love interest, who plays an important role in the game. And who isn't a sex worker. Or managing sex workers. Yes, Claudia, I'm looking at you. :p Nothing wrong with sex workers, but really seeing the way guards act when you use courtesans/ romanies/ dancers on them usually makes me laugh, and sometimes makes me want to assassinate them all anyway. :p

If you'll look at MY posts (can't speak for everyone, just myself) I don't find the lack of a female skin for co-op a bad thing. The idea of taking time and resources to make a female skin is dumb since I would never get to see myself as a girl anyway since we're always Arno. My issue is that we should have been a girl from the start (and as a result had 4 female co-op Assassins) and it would have been neat to see Ubisoft, a big company, start off their cash cow franchise with a female lead for next gen.


While Nelson Mandela did some questionable things in his younger days, neither he or Martin Luther King were drama queens, seeing evil everywhere, blaming men for everything bad in the world, accusing every men of being rapists by nature, disregarding every notion of logic, accusing everyone who disagrees with them as being some sort of Nazis, nor did they used lies and fabricated evidence to support their claims, and they were educated individuals who knew what they were talking about and suffered on the skin the things they were fighting against, most of these so called SJW were born and live in a much better world and most of them never suffered any discrimination whatsoever, they are all theory with little knowledge of what they are talking about, extremism usually comes from ignorance.

Funny because lots of people on here and on the rest of the internet like to use the term "femiNAZI." Weird how that applies more to the other side and NOT feminists or SJWs.

As for the rest. MLK and the like were not after the evils of sexism. They were after the evils of racism. Similar things but not the same. It's very hard to promote multiple things. MLK would have (most likely) been less effective if he had tried to get more support for women and every other minority in the world. Asking someone to focus on everything is like asking scientists "how come you don't study every aspect of science?" Because that's ludicrous.


Implying the games would be better if they had playable females?
That's discrimination against men, I'm going to become a masculanist now. Masculanist? Idk... what would a male version of a feminist be?

Please have that conversation elsewhere.

I think he or she meant that having more women in games would make games, in general, better. Not that a specific game with a female lead makes it inherently better. I will say that games that have a high number of male leads such as AC, WOULD be better with a female lead simply because it would freshen the story up. So in many ways yes, it would be better provided they were given the same care as games with male leads.

You don't get to say "oh well that's sexist to men" because no one said that ALL games need females -- and more females would simply LEVEL the playing field. Men are still more visible as protagonists.


As I said, I don't want to make the comparison between giants of history like them and ordinary people like me having our say about video games. I was just taking issue with you saying that extremism has never done anything good for humankind. Acting in a way that draws out the tag "extremist" is often the only way to get things done.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know where to start. Leaving aside the giant straw feminist that calls all men Nazi rapists... "Never suffered any discrimination whatsoever" floors me, though. The death threats, the rape threats, the bomb threats? These were not "lies" by the way, all have now been confirmed by the police department.

I don't know how you can possibly know what background people come from, all these people who you've never seen. It's easy to assume everyone you disagree with is just some coddled ex-student from the suburbs, but that's not the case.

No, as I said in my very first post in this thread:

"I care about diversity as a matter of inclusivity, but also for the quality of the games and their stories. If designers have to think about demographic range, maybe they'll be encouraged to make better characters too. Right now, they are really poorly formed."

A male version of a feminist is a feminist. Feminism is about achieving parity of power, opportunity and outcomes as far as possible for all genders. It has a female-related name because it was a movement started on behalf of women, since they get the raw deal right now, but that doesn't mean it's Team Lady versus Team Gentleman.

But...but... Anita says things I don't like! SURELY she must be some evil mastermind. Who cares if she is or isn't a gamer. She has brought up some really good points. Do I wish she'd occasionally discuss the GOOD females of gaming or how women are becoming slightly more prominent in games such as the new Tomb Raider reboot or how even freaking Nintendo has more playabale female than male characters in Hyrule Warriors which is virtually unheard of in any piece of media -- yes, I do. That doesn't make her points less valid though. The use of battered women is evident across entertainment, not just games, but again... her focus is on GAMES. Sure it's a persistent problem throughout media... that doesn't give gaming a free pass to do it too.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 07:26 PM
I advise people to watch The Amazing Atheist and his videos on feminism. He makes sense, so intelligent people will find his viewpoint interesting.

AssassinHMS
09-21-2014, 07:31 PM
I will say that games that have a high number of male leads such as AC, WOULD be better with a female lead simply because it would freshen the story up.

Why do you think a female Assassin would help the story feel fresh?

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 07:39 PM
Who gives a ****????

Seriously if you are on either side of this issue you're an ignorant ***

If you only want make leads you're a chauvinistic *****

If you're an overly obsessed women should run everything and must have all leads psycho feminist then you are just as daft as the chauvinists.

Does it even ****ing matter???? I'm sick and tired of all the threads and walls of text of stupid people throwing insults and nonsense at eachother when both sides are just as bigoted and ignorant as the other.

Do I prefer male leads over female? Yes cuz I'm a guy
Do a really give a ****? No because gameplay is no different
Would I still buy the game? Yes

So why is this relevant?

Jackdaw951
09-21-2014, 07:46 PM
No. I do care about artistic freedom, very much including the freedom to choose whichever fictional-character demographics any artist sees fit for his or her project.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 07:55 PM
No. I do care about artistic freedom, very much including the freedom to choose whichever fictional-character demographics any artist sees fit for his or her project.

And who is stopping anyone from doing that?

Is there some kind of game police communists that don't allow it?
Someone holding a knife to Ubis throat not letting them do it?

No? Really? Huh?

So then there's only male protagonists because they made that artistic creative decision? Huh?

So then stop being a hypocrite and let them do what they want.

If they make a female they'll make one because it makes sense.

Everyone just need to get off it. Jesus it's annoying.

Jackdaw951
09-21-2014, 08:06 PM
And who is stopping anyone from doing that?

Is there some kind of game police communists that don't allow it?
Someone holding a knife to Ubis throat not letting them do it?

No? Really? Huh?

So then there's only male protagonists because they made that artistic creative decision? Huh?

So then stop being a hypocrite and let them do what they want.

If they make a female they'll make one because it makes sense.

Everyone just need to get off it. Jesus it's annoying.

Calm down, and don't insult someone who is on your side in this. You want them to have full artistic freedom to choose their game characters, and so do I. There is no official police force, but there is an organized force behind intimidating studios and developers into falling in line with leftist social agendas. Read up on the whole #gamergate fiasco. Read up on Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, Phil Fish, Gamasutra, Polygon, Kotaku, et al. You may be horrified.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 08:30 PM
Calm down, and don't insult someone who is on your side in this. You want them to have full artistic freedom to choose their game characters, and so do I. There is no official police force, but there is an organized force behind intimidating studios and developers into falling in line with leftist social agendas. Read up on the whole #gamergate fiasco. Read up on Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, Phil Fish, Gamasutra, Polygon, Kotaku, et al. You may be horrified.

I apologize. I thought you were one of them spinning it as "creative freedom" when they really mean "females or die". I'm very sorry. I'm just soooooi sick of this issue.

And I know. Leftists strong arming industries to push an agenda is nothing new. I'm a history buff and a political science major. TV shows, News(tv and print), magazines, movies, games. Etc. All get bullied and bribed by leftist maniacs since at least the last century. It's nothing new. It's kind of the Liberal MO. They threaten, sue, and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Yet they like to make conservatives like myself out to be the boogy man who's out to get you. While they're busy telling you that you can't enjoy playing video games or watching football unless you're a sexist pig.

They just try to guilt trip and intimidate people into falling in line even if you don't believe in their stuff. By marginalizing you and treating you like some kind of monster for doing ordinary things. They force you to except their view or face constant harassment or social outcasting. 99% of things on liberal agendas most people that support the issue are only supporting in principal not taking it to regulations and forcible actions levels.

For example this issue. Most people agree that they should have female characters. However the difference is in how and why.

Normal people+conservative view on this= they can make a female character if they so choose. Who cares?

Leftist/über liberal= there MUST be women. There aren't ENOUGH women. So we must force you to make more until there are just as many as men and if you don't well cut funding, threaten your job, boycott your product, or sue until you do.

So creative liberty is thrown out the window with that agenda. They basically force the industry to make females where it makes no sense. Giving the creators no choice and no freedom.

That's why I could never get behind liberalism. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

To on one hand promote understanding, kindness, fairness and liberty. While at the same time. Dividing everyone on issues of race, sex, gender, orientation. Suing screaming intimidating and arguing with everyone. Forcing people to play by your rules and do what you want. And to systematically remove the range of freedom and liberty at your disposal.

They make it all sound really nice with the stuff aforementioned. And then shoot themselves in the foot with the other.

They have no right to call themselves "liberals"
If anything they would be called
"Regulators" "Normalizers" "Stop free thinkers" "Opinion Haters" "Racists(that pay so much attention to face and sex trying to "tear down barriers" that they highlight the differences and fuel division)

I've just had enough of their ilk. The self righteous misguided nutjobs.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-21-2014, 09:00 PM
I advise people to watch The Amazing Atheist and his videos on feminism. He makes sense, so intelligent people will find his viewpoint interesting.

I've seen his stuff. Meh. I'm an atheist btw but I just don't agree on his views of feminism. I haven't seen enough of his videos on feminism (which it looks like there's a lot) but most of it just not very good.


Why do you think a female Assassin would help the story feel fresh?

Well we've seen history through the eyes of Altair, Ezio, Connor (and Haytham), Edward, Adewale, and soon... Arno. That's 5 or 6 male character's we've experienced. A woman could potentially offer something new such as what it was like for women back then. Commentary on how women are cunning warriors and assassins as well. They could even mention how the origins of the Order included female Assassins in Babylon and Egypt or how the Syrian/Levantine Assassins of Altair's day were less open to the idea of female Assassins as evidenced by the fact that ALL Assassins in Masyaf were male (and also had scantily clad women in the garden out back instead) until Altair made changes to the structure of the order and reintroduced the idea of women as fit Assassins. In fact, you could REALLY tie in AC1 by having said or somehow referred to Altair's meeting with Maria as a catalyst that drove this change.

She was a capable fighter, a manipulator, etc. for the Templars and perhaps, just maybe, they allowed her to operate on equal terms as them. Perhaps Altair and Maria spoke at lengths about the different ideologies and at one point, Altair convinced her that the Templar methods were wrong. In turn, Maria finally convinced Altair that while their methods are wrong -- not all of their ideas are (such as their allowance of women to help them). This allowed Altair to grow further (a running theme of his tale) and to become more open and accepting of all. This would pave the way for the aforementioned reintroduction of women, it would make a man and woman from two different backgrounds and beliefs to come together and compromise and reveal things to the other that they had not considered, it would mean a man and woman (as equals) were responsible for opening up the Assassins once again, it would be a neat nod to the game that started it all (and would have been amazingly fitting for ACU if we had been playing as Elise instead of Arno as their relationship is reminiscent of Altair and Maria's somewhat), AND it would help balance the Assassins and Templars a bit -- show that the Templars are not evil but had some neat ideas as well -- the Assassins were the close minded ones.

If the writers wanted to stick to a tired and true formula of personal tragedy = catalyst > discovers Assassins, becomes Assassin for personal reasons, grows and develops and begins to fight for the Assassin cause which they have come to view as just... they could easily do the same as well. The fact that it was a girl would at least be VISUALLY refreshing in that case so while even the story is very similar to previous entries, the protagonist isn't as similar in that sense. It's probably the weakest reason and I'm not TOO fond of the idea but it IS an option. They could get away with having a female protagonist and not really changing much in their system of story telling. I'd prefer it if they did though.

The problem I see with Altair/Maria backstory is how would it be told? Through flashback a la memory discs in ACR or would the main character recite her own knowledge of the order? Perhaps a male scoffs at the idea of her becoming Grand Master Assassin of ______ and she scolds him by humblebragging her knowledge of the order by speaking of how Altair, one of the greatest Assassins to have ever lived, was the reason female Assassins were reintroduced to the order. Going on to tell the man that Altair would be ashamed at his willingness to let social norms cloud their reason and rationality or whatever. Or perhaps instead of that, she just looks at him with an upset glare and walks off, someone else could then proceed to quickly explain the story of how Altair opened up the order again and Female Assassin Character is the best choice for the leader of their sect of the Assassins.

There are plenty of options. Perhaps they could refine the mechanics of Liberation where you could use disguises and otherwise "act like a contemporary woman" as expected by the society of the time.

Perhaps there's a moment where something bad happens and she's treated badly in public. When she gets angry, the person explains to her that while the Assassins fully respect women and deem them equal to men -- society has not. Acting like that would call undue attention towards them. They could then discuss that the Assassins will always be a haven for women to feel equal and though it may take another hundred years, another thousand years, society WILL catch up. Society always pushes toward progress.

I think there's a lot of potential there. Does it need to be the sole focus of the story? Depends. It definitely doesn't need to be at all.


No. I do care about artistic freedom, very much including the freedom to choose whichever fictional-character demographics any artist sees fit for his or her project.

As someone who fancies himself an artist. And comes from a family of musicians and writers and poets, etc. That's a poppycock.

It's not like Ubisoft has only one artist, one writer... they are comprised of MANY writers, MANY artists, MANY creators. Surely some of them are capable of writing a solid female character. If all they ALL ever want to do is write about men because that's all they ever choose or CAN write about, I must question the merits of their writing ability. I'd like to think Ubisoft is more capable than that. Furthermore, go ahead and talk about "artistic freedom" about a company that forced out an entry in 10 months just to meet a deadline. Go ahead and talk about "artistic freedom" when the higher ups of Ubisoft have the final say over what they think will get them money.

And if they don't think women will get them as much money? Then that's ALSO an issue. That's either an issue with Ubisoft for not realizing they'd get just the same amount of money as they typically would for AC OR, if true, it's a problem with gamers and society in general. Either way, Ubisoft would have the power to turn preconceived notions around.

Media can't make someone kill or shoot up a school or be more violent than they already are. But repeated themes, images, and messages in media CAN influence how one views the world. If they happen to then go shoot a place up -- that's because there was more serious matter underneath and SOMETHING was going to be a catalyst regardless.

TheHumanTowel
09-21-2014, 09:20 PM
No. I do care about artistic freedom, very much including the freedom to choose whichever fictional-character demographics any artist sees fit for his or her project.
And a piece of art can also be criticised for it's choices in fictional-character demographics.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 09:24 PM
And a piece of art can also be criticised for it's choices in fictional-character demographics.

Yes it is anyone's right to criticize it. However it would be nobody's right to for example. Forcibly change the Mona Lisa by drawing a mustache in sharpie because they personally believe it best that she have one.

You can critique anything you want. But when you start trying to force your will is when the line has been crossed.

TheHumanTowel
09-21-2014, 09:33 PM
Yes it is anyone's right to criticize it. However it would be nobody's right to for example. Forcibly change the Mona Lisa by drawing a mustache in sharpie because they personally believe it best that she have one.

You can critique anything you want. But when you start trying to force your will is when the line has been crossed.
How is anyone trying to force their will? People start petitions and complain about things but games companies and developers have all the power here. They're the ones who choose what they do in their games, people on the internet can't "force" them to do anything.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 09:48 PM
How is anyone trying to force their will? People start petitions and complain about things but games companies and developers have all the power here. They're the ones who choose what they do in their games, people on the internet can't "force" them to do anything.

A petition is an attempt to force change.

Ubi hasn't changed because they see no reason for it. And let's be honest which of these settings has it made sense to have a female over a male lead thus far? And they've given us Aveline lest we forget. But the rabid beast of leftist radicalism isn't satisfied with that.

Women have had more representation in these games than say. Hispanics or Asians. But we don't consider that because nobody's making a stink over it.

They can't just give something on demand because one small minority cries about it. It will happen eventually I'm sure. When it makes sense and suits the story.

It's just like you can't buy your kid a toy at the store every time you go just because they throw a temper tantrum. The kid will get a toy eventually. Just not when they are whining about it.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 10:07 PM
I've seen his stuff. Meh. I'm an atheist btw but I just don't agree on his views of feminism. I haven't seen enough of his videos on feminism (which it looks like there's a lot) but most of it just not very good.



Well we've seen history through the eyes of Altair, Ezio, Connor (and Haytham), Edward, Adewale, and soon... Arno. That's 5 or 6 male character's we've experienced. A woman could potentially offer something new such as what it was like for women back then. Commentary on how women are cunning warriors and assassins as well. They could even mention how the origins of the Order included female Assassins in Babylon and Egypt or how the Syrian/Levantine Assassins of Altair's day were less open to the idea of female Assassins as evidenced by the fact that ALL Assassins in Masyaf were male (and also had scantily clad women in the garden out back instead) until Altair made changes to the structure of the order and reintroduced the idea of women as fit Assassins. In fact, you could REALLY tie in AC1 by having said or somehow referred to Altair's meeting with Maria as a catalyst that drove this change.

She was a capable fighter, a manipulator, etc. for the Templars and perhaps, just maybe, they allowed her to operate on equal terms as them. Perhaps Altair and Maria spoke at lengths about the different ideologies and at one point, Altair convinced her that the Templar methods were wrong. In turn, Maria finally convinced Altair that while their methods are wrong -- not all of their ideas are (such as their allowance of women to help them). This allowed Altair to grow further (a running theme of his tale) and to become more open and accepting of all. This would pave the way for the aforementioned reintroduction of women, it would make a man and woman from two different backgrounds and beliefs to come together and compromise and reveal things to the other that they had not considered, it would mean a man and woman (as equals) were responsible for opening up the Assassins once again, it would be a neat nod to the game that started it all (and would have been amazingly fitting for ACU if we had been playing as Elise instead of Arno as their relationship is reminiscent of Altair and Maria's somewhat), AND it would help balance the Assassins and Templars a bit -- show that the Templars are not evil but had some neat ideas as well -- the Assassins were the close minded ones.

If the writers wanted to stick to a tired and true formula of personal tragedy = catalyst > discovers Assassins, becomes Assassin for personal reasons, grows and develops and begins to fight for the Assassin cause which they have come to view as just... they could easily do the same as well. The fact that it was a girl would at least be VISUALLY refreshing in that case so while even the story is very similar to previous entries, the protagonist isn't as similar in that sense. It's probably the weakest reason and I'm not TOO fond of the idea but it IS an option. They could get away with having a female protagonist and not really changing much in their system of story telling. I'd prefer it if they did though.

The problem I see with Altair/Maria backstory is how would it be told? Through flashback a la memory discs in ACR or would the main character recite her own knowledge of the order? Perhaps a male scoffs at the idea of her becoming Grand Master Assassin of ______ and she scolds him by humblebragging her knowledge of the order by speaking of how Altair, one of the greatest Assassins to have ever lived, was the reason female Assassins were reintroduced to the order. Going on to tell the man that Altair would be ashamed at his willingness to let social norms cloud their reason and rationality or whatever. Or perhaps instead of that, she just looks at him with an upset glare and walks off, someone else could then proceed to quickly explain the story of how Altair opened up the order again and Female Assassin Character is the best choice for the leader of their sect of the Assassins.

There are plenty of options. Perhaps they could refine the mechanics of Liberation where you could use disguises and otherwise "act like a contemporary woman" as expected by the society of the time.

Perhaps there's a moment where something bad happens and she's treated badly in public. When she gets angry, the person explains to her that while the Assassins fully respect women and deem them equal to men -- society has not. Acting like that would call undue attention towards them. They could then discuss that the Assassins will always be a haven for women to feel equal and though it may take another hundred years, another thousand years, society WILL catch up. Society always pushes toward progress.

I think there's a lot of potential there. Does it need to be the sole focus of the story? Depends. It definitely doesn't need to be at all.



As someone who fancies himself an artist. And comes from a family of musicians and writers and poets, etc. That's a poppycock.

It's not like Ubisoft has only one artist, one writer... they are comprised of MANY writers, MANY artists, MANY creators. Surely some of them are capable of writing a solid female character. If all they ALL ever want to do is write about men because that's all they ever choose or CAN write about, I must question the merits of their writing ability. I'd like to think Ubisoft is more capable than that. Furthermore, go ahead and talk about "artistic freedom" about a company that forced out an entry in 10 months just to meet a deadline. Go ahead and talk about "artistic freedom" when the higher ups of Ubisoft have the final say over what they think will get them money.

And if they don't think women will get them as much money? Then that's ALSO an issue. That's either an issue with Ubisoft for not realizing they'd get just the same amount of money as they typically would for AC OR, if true, it's a problem with gamers and society in general. Either way, Ubisoft would have the power to turn preconceived notions around.

Media can't make someone kill or shoot up a school or be more violent than they already are. But repeated themes, images, and messages in media CAN influence how one views the world. If they happen to then go shoot a place up -- that's because there was more serious matter underneath and SOMETHING was going to be a catalyst regardless.

I don't know why you don't see his viewpoint as "very good", elaboration would be appreciated.

Also, I don't see someone's refusal to play a game with a female lead as a problem with society. It's that person's own prerogative, not anyone else's. I don't consider a differing opinion to be a problem with society. It's when that translates to the harm of others that I take issue.

Also, I don't believe that writing ability can be equated to the diversity of one's stories. We know that Ubisoft can make great stories, to call their abilities into question because they choose to not write a female lead into another one of their games seems petty.

Also, is it really your place to say whether a female lead game would make more money? I don't think it is.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 10:11 PM
Lololol, the Amazing Atheist. Yes, I'm sure the guy who in no uncertain terms told a rape victim that he hopes she will get raped again and offered to do it himself (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#Reddit_meltdown) has very reasonable and mature views on feminism.

AssassinHMS
09-21-2014, 10:13 PM
Well we've seen history through the eyes of Altair, Ezio, Connor (and Haytham), Edward, Adewale, and soon... Arno. That's 5 or 6 male character's we've experienced. A woman could potentially offer something new such as what it was like for women back then. Commentary on how women are cunning warriors and assassins as well. They could even mention how the origins of the Order included female Assassins in Babylon and Egypt or how the Syrian/Levantine Assassins of Altair's day were less open to the idea of female Assassins as evidenced by the fact that ALL Assassins in Masyaf were male (and also had scantily clad women in the garden out back instead) until Altair made changes to the structure of the order and reintroduced the idea of women as fit Assassins. In fact, you could REALLY tie in AC1 by having said or somehow referred to Altair's meeting with Maria as a catalyst that drove this change. She was a capable fighter, a manipulator, etc. for the Templars and perhaps, just maybe, they allowed her to operate on equal terms as them. Perhaps Altair and Maria spoke at lengths about the different ideologies and at one point, Altair convinced her that the Templar methods were wrong. In turn, Maria finally convinced Altair that while their methods are wrong -- not all of their ideas are (such as their allowance of women to help them). This allowed Altair to grow further (a running theme of his tale) and to become more open and accepting of all. This would pave the way for the aforementioned reintroduction of women, it would make a man and woman from two different backgrounds and beliefs to come together and compromise and reveal things to the other that they had not considered, it would mean a man and woman (as equals) were responsible for opening up the Assassins once again, it would be a neat nod to the game that started it all (and would have been amazingly fitting for ACU if we had been playing as Elise instead of Arno as their relationship is reminiscent of Altair and Maria's somewhat), AND it would help balance the Assassins and Templars a bit -- show that the Templars are not evil but had some neat ideas as well -- the Assassins were the close minded ones.


Indeed, we’ve seen history through the eyes of 5 male Assassins. Thing is, they saw what they saw mostly as citizens (as part of their time’s society) and as Assassins (their take on the creed, their part in the war against Templars, etc.). The games never focused on their gender. Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward could have been replaced with women and nothing would have changed. Sure, the scene where Altair was surprised to see a woman fighting as well as a man would still have been used but in reverse and we would see a lot of flirting with men in AC2 but the stories told in those games and the experiences would not feel any different.
What you are unofficially using to back up your claim, that a female Assassin would make for a fresh story, is a story that focuses on the protagonist’s gender.

If the story is like previous games, the gender of the protagonist will make no difference.

What is actually fresh here, is a story focused on gender discrimination and such and not the gender of the protagonist.
The gender of the protagonist doesn’t trully add anything to the experience, especially in an increasingly fictional world like AC’s.
And I don't know if I'd like to see "gender" as the focus of an AC story. I don't even like when the story gets too personal. I'd rather a story like AC1's where we get to know the protagonist through his actions as an Assassin and not by following his personal story and where we constantly look for the big picture instead of spending most of the game contemplating a mere egocentric piece who seems to think it's the puzzle.






If the writers wanted to stick to a tired and true formula of personal tragedy = catalyst > discovers Assassins, becomes Assassin for personal reasons, grows and develops and begins to fight for the Assassin cause which they have come to view as just... they could easily do the same as well. The fact that it was a girl would at least be VISUALLY refreshing in that case so while even the story is very similar to previous entries, the protagonist isn't as similar in that sense. It's probably the weakest reason and I'm not TOO fond of the idea but it IS an option. They could get away with having a female protagonist and not really changing much in their system of story telling. I'd prefer it if they did though.

Agreed, it is quite overused by now but there are many other different formulas. Gender could change the formula a bit. If they want to do it, they can but it’s far from being their only option.
I also agree, that the visual refresh is quite a weak reason.

TheHumanTowel
09-21-2014, 10:17 PM
A petition is an attempt to force change.

Ubi hasn't changed because they see no reason for it. And let's be honest which of these settings has it made sense to have a female over a male lead thus far? And they've given us Aveline lest we forget. But the rabid beast of leftist radicalism isn't satisfied with that.

Women have had more representation in these games than say. Hispanics or Asians. But we don't consider that because nobody's making a stink over it.

They can't just give something on demand because one small minority cries about it. It will happen eventually I'm sure. When it makes sense and suits the story.

It's just like you can't buy your kid a toy at the store every time you go just because they throw a temper tantrum. The kid will get a toy eventually. Just not when they are whining about it.
Nearly every thread on these forums is an attempt to force change if you're looking at it that way. Asking for specific gameplay mechanics or settings. Yet people only go crazy about artistic freedom when it's about issues like this. People have complained about lack of representation of minorites but even still what bearing does that have on this issue? Women should shut up about representation because look at the nice quiet asians? Women aren't a "small minority" by the way they're 50% of the human race.

I don't see anything wrong with criticising these games for a lack of diversity in protagonists or how doing so is some impingement on Ubisoft's sacred artistic freedom.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 10:25 PM
Indeed, we’ve seen history through the eyes of 5 male Assassins. Thing is, they saw what they saw mostly as citizens (as part of their time’s society) and as Assassins (their take on the creed, their part in the war against Templars, etc.). The games never focused on their gender. Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward could have been replaced with women and nothing would have changed. Sure, the scene where Altair was surprised to see a woman fighting as well as a man would still have been used but in reverse and we would see a lot of flirting with men in AC2 but the stories told in those games and the experiences would not feel any different.
What you are unofficially using to back up your claim, that a female Assassin would make for a fresh story, is a story that focuses on the protagonist’s gender.

How can you say gender made no difference? Do you realize women weren't allowed in half the places we've visited in the series? Someone like Altaïr could simply pretend he was a monk and enter any place he liked. Women weren't even allowed in many servant roles back then, let alone get combat training or be allowed to educate themselves, so being a female assassin in Altaïr's time would have been twice as challenging. Ezio constantly flirted with women, drawing attention to his gender. Chasing women is one of his defining characteristics. AC4 would have been much more interesting if instead of Edward we would have been Anne Bonny or Mary Read. Two women who defied the gender roles of their time and carved their own path in life, becoming some of the fiercest pirates in their day.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 10:33 PM
Nearly every thread on these forums is an attempt to force change if you're looking at it that way. Asking for specific gameplay mechanics or settings. Yet people only go crazy about artistic freedom when it's about issues like this. People have complained about lack of representation of minorites but even still what bearing does that have on this issue? Women should shut up about representation because look at the nice quiet asians? Women aren't a "small minority" by the way they're 50% of the human race.

I don't see anything wrong with criticising these games for a lack of diversity in protagonists or how doing so is some impingement on Ubisoft's sacred artistic freedom.
They aren't attempting to change anything. Most of the threads are just suggestions and brainstorming for what can be done.

There's a difference between that. And healthy criticism. And demonizing Ubisoft as being masicistic chauvinists which is utter tripe. There are more females in this series. And represented stronger and more independently than any other series I've ever played. They don't need to be the protagonist to be represented well.

And as for the issue of them "shutting up about representation" as you so eloquently put it. That was not what I was saying at all and I didn't say WOMEN were te minority btw. I said the minority is the people who actually give a damn about this issue and scream like lunatics about it. Women actually currently make up the majority of gamers. But only a very very very small number actually give a flying **** if their protagonist is male or female.

The minority group of complaining psychopaths is not all female and is made up of all races and genders. However there is so few of this insane group why worry about satisfying them??

Ubisoft will make a female protagonist when they are good and ready. And all the sane majority of people will welcome her as any other. But when she does come. That insane leftist minority will still find fault with it because it didn't meet their expectations and demands. Or they will be satisfied with the female. But then move on to the next stupid issue. Like "well we finally got a woman....but why wasn't she Asian???!!!??!!!"

It's a never ending vicious cycle with these kind of people. It they tried to satisfy them they would never accomplish it and slowly alienate the sane people. Thus losing money and quality of product.

You can't please everyone. That's why ubisoft focuses on the sane majority. And not a psychopathic minority that is wayyyyyy too damn vocal.

Don't confuse noisyness with righteousness, size or significance.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 10:38 PM
How can you say gender made no difference? Do you realize women weren't allowed in half the places we've visited in the series? Someone like Altaïr could simply pretend he was a monk and enter any place he liked. Women weren't even allowed in many servant roles back then, let alone get combat training or be allowed to educate themselves, so being a female assassin in Altaïr's time would have been twice as challenging.

And because of those examples you gave is why it was the better interest of Ubi to use a male protagonist for AC one. It would have made for an incredibly boring game. All the gameplay would be ruined because we wouldn't be allowed to do anything.
Social commentary aside they have to worry about actually making these games fun to play.

They made that creative decision I'm certain taking this into account(and how women weren't in the historical Hasashin it was a male brotherhood)

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 10:44 PM
That escalated quickly...
I don't want to fuel any fire but I need to say this;
When I said "That's discrimination against men, I'm going to become a masculanist now. Masculanist? Idk... what would a male version of a feminist be?", I was just being a ****, just mocking the overly sensitive feminazis really. I thought it was obvious I wasn't being serious.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 10:58 PM
And because of those examples you gave is why it was the better interest of Ubi to use a male protagonist for AC one. It would have made for an incredibly boring game. All the gameplay would be ruined because we wouldn't be allowed to do anything.
Social commentary aside they have to worry about actually making these games fun to play.

They made that creative decision I'm certain taking this into account(and how women weren't in the historical Hasashin it was a male brotherhood)

Not true. That whole concept is what gave AC: Liberation a fresh new angle with the disguises. Aveline's lady persona was allowed into high-security areas, but couldn't freerun because that would be suspicious for a lady. Her slave persona could disguise herself as worker to get into restricted areas, was fast at pickpocketing but couldn't get into high society places without arousing suspicion. The assassin persona had the most freedom when it came to combat and movement, but also gained notoriety fast. The choice of female protagonist directly impacted gameplay mechanics and made for an innovative experience.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:02 PM
Lololol, the Amazing Atheist. Yes, I'm sure the guy who in no uncertain terms told a rape victim that he hopes she will get raped again and offered to do it himself (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#Reddit_meltdown) has very reasonable and mature views on feminism.

I don't know what she did, so I'm not going to comment on that. But as someone who wants my stance to be efficiently challenged so that I can learn, I'm not going to disregard every one of his points because he might have stepped over a line. That just seems anti-progressive.


Not true. That whole concept is what gave AC: Liberation a fresh new angle with the disguises. Aveline's lady persona was allowed into high-security areas, but couldn't freerun because that would be suspicious for a lady. Her slave persona could disguise herself as worker to get into restricted areas, was fast at pickpocketing but couldn't get into high society places without arousing suspicion. The assassin persona had the most freedom when it came to combat and movement, but also gained notoriety fast. The choice of female protagonist directly impacted gameplay mechanics and made for an innovative experience.

If that was the exact same system, but Aveline was a male and instead of being a lady it was a nobleman, I doubt you would have considered it an innovative experience.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:06 PM
I don't know what she did, so I'm not going to comment on that. But as someone who wants my stance to be efficiently challenged so that I can learn, I'm not going to disregard every one of his points because he might have stepped over a line. That just seems anti-progressive.

Oh, this isn't the first or last objectionable thing he's said. TJ has stepped over way too many lines for me to take him seriously. Sure, he made some good points on religion, but he's dead wrong on feminism. And absolutely nothing excuses the way he treated that rape victim.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:08 PM
Oh, this isn't the first or last objectionable thing he's said. TJ has stepped over way too many lines for me to take him seriously. Sure, he made some good points on religion, but he's dead wrong on feminism. And absolutely nothing excuses the way he treated that rape victim.

I'd appreciate it if you explained why he was "dead wrong" or what lines he crossed.

AssassinHMS
09-21-2014, 11:08 PM
How can you say gender made no difference? Do you realize women weren't allowed in half the places we've visited in the series? Someone like Altaïr could simply pretend he was a monk and enter any place he liked. Women weren't even allowed in many servant roles back then, let alone get combat training or be allowed to educate themselves, so being a female assassin in Altaïr's time would have been twice as challenging. Ezio constantly flirted with women, drawing attention to his gender. Chasing women is one of his defining characteristics. AC4 would have been much more interesting if instead of Edward we would have been Anne Bonny or Mary Read. Two women who defied the gender roles of their time and carved their own path in life, becoming some of the fiercest pirates in their day.

Maybe the hooded robes would actually conceal her gender? I think a woman could pass for a monk a lot easier than Altair did with all the armor and weapons.
As for AC2, there are far "stealthier" ways to flirt.


So, like I said, it would have made no difference.

RinoTheBouncer
09-21-2014, 11:10 PM
I apologize. I thought you were one of them spinning it as "creative freedom" when they really mean "females or die". I'm very sorry. I'm just soooooi sick of this issue.

And I know. Leftists strong arming industries to push an agenda is nothing new. I'm a history buff and a political science major. TV shows, News(tv and print), magazines, movies, games. Etc. All get bullied and bribed by leftist maniacs since at least the last century. It's nothing new. It's kind of the Liberal MO. They threaten, sue, and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Yet they like to make conservatives like myself out to be the boogy man who's out to get you. While they're busy telling you that you can't enjoy playing video games or watching football unless you're a sexist pig.

They just try to guilt trip and intimidate people into falling in line even if you don't believe in their stuff. By marginalizing you and treating you like some kind of monster for doing ordinary things. They force you to except their view or face constant harassment or social outcasting. 99% of things on liberal agendas most people that support the issue are only supporting in principal not taking it to regulations and forcible actions levels.

For example this issue. Most people agree that they should have female characters. However the difference is in how and why.

Normal people+conservative view on this= they can make a female character if they so choose. Who cares?

Leftist/über liberal= there MUST be women. There aren't ENOUGH women. So we must force you to make more until there are just as many as men and if you don't well cut funding, threaten your job, boycott your product, or sue until you do.

So creative liberty is thrown out the window with that agenda. They basically force the industry to make females where it makes no sense. Giving the creators no choice and no freedom.

That's why I could never get behind liberalism. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

To on one hand promote understanding, kindness, fairness and liberty. While at the same time. Dividing everyone on issues of race, sex, gender, orientation. Suing screaming intimidating and arguing with everyone. Forcing people to play by your rules and do what you want. And to systematically remove the range of freedom and liberty at your disposal.

They make it all sound really nice with the stuff aforementioned. And then shoot themselves in the foot with the other.

They have no right to call themselves "liberals"
If anything they would be called
"Regulators" "Normalizers" "Stop free thinkers" "Opinion Haters" "Racists(that pay so much attention to face and sex trying to "tear down barriers" that they highlight the differences and fuel division)

I've just had enough of their ilk. The self righteous misguided nutjobs.

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.

There’s this huge force behind the media that makes pretends to promote liberty and equality while in reality, they just wanna force their own opinion on you and if you don’t follow them, they make you the bad guy, and they don’t support equality, the call it equality but they want superiority and hell, they promote a lot of double-standards for example they say women are equal to men and they show a video of a singer shooting or beating her man and promoting it as “powerful, bad_a**women” but when a movie shows a man beating a woman, they call it violence. Well, I never support beating a women, hell I respect women and treasure them, but why promote such hypocritical image?

If women and men are equal then they should either not attack each other and the crime is frowned upon equally on both sides or both are called bada** for doing so. In addition to the stuff you mentioned like wanting art to be tailored the way they want. No creative freedom. You HAVE TO have the same number of women and men to not be called a racist pig, you HAVE TO show all races in a movie, you SHOULD NOT make any racist slurs in a movie even if the story demands so. For example, Far Cry 4 artwork was frowned upon, why? cause it ‘promotes racism”, NO IT DOESN’T! it shows a case from reality and fiction, the man is a bad man and he’s probably an enslaver, what do you expect him to do? it’s a story, embrace it for what it is.

So yeah, I agree with every word you said and I’m 100% against those people no matter what they try to label me as. And it’s such a shame that big studios and companies like Ubisoft bend their heads to them and explain themselves when they shouldn’t. Art should be free. It should be boundless and not restricted by nazi laws.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:11 PM
If that was the exact same system, but Aveline was a male and instead of being a lady it was a nobleman, I doubt you would have considered it an innovative experience.

Yes, BECAUSE we've had 7 male protagonists already. Anything they could do with a male protagonist at this point would hardly be revolutionary because historically, men (white men, that is) have always been free to go wherever they want and do whatever they wish. Even today, in 2014, women everywhere still aren't free on the same level. So having a game where a woman is free to do anything she wants, without being in any way limited or criticized because of her gender, would be innovative because it's something we don't see in real life.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:13 PM
Not true. That whole concept is what gave AC: Liberation a fresh new angle with the disguises. Aveline's lady persona was allowed into high-security areas, but couldn't freerun because that would be suspicious for a lady. Her slave persona could disguise herself as worker to get into restricted areas, was fast at pickpocketing but couldn't get into high society places without arousing suspicion. The assassin persona had the most freedom when it came to combat and movement, but also gained notoriety fast. The choice of female protagonist directly impacted gameplay mechanics and made for an innovative experience.

I was only talking about AC1 for that example for the reasons you elaborated.

But what you just said now is exactly my point.

ACL was in an entirely different time culture and place. 1700s enlightenment French colonial culture.
Which gave the devs the creative leeway to make a female protagonist and have her make sense while bringing things to the table gameplay wise.

Juxtapose this with AC1s hardcore Islamic Crusades era culture. Where showing too much skin will see you put to death. Speaking out isn't a thing. And you must remained covered at all times(making you fairly conspicuous if you're out of place might I add). The restrictions on women of that time were so severe it would have hindered gameplay to the point of crippling. Not to mention none of the men would pay the character any mind when it comes to opinions or suggestions on how to assassinate someone.

The more modern we go the more strong roles we see women getting in AC and even received a protag recently. As long as time goes forward or we see more open cultures. Then we will see more of women

These are creative/gameplay decisions made based on historical context. It's not like Ubi is out to get women or something. It just hasn't made much sense for most of the series thus far.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:15 PM
I'd appreciate it if you explained why he was "dead wrong" or what lines he crossed.

Sorry, I've discussed TAA to death on other sites and at this point would rather just forget his existence. If you want a good summary, <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist">the RationalWiki page</a> should keep you busy for the rest of the evening. Have fun.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:17 PM
Yes, BECAUSE we've had 7 male protagonists already. Anything they could do with a male protagonist at this point would hardly be revolutionary because historically, men (white men, that is) have always been free to go wherever they want and do whatever they wish. Even today, in 2014, women everywhere still aren't free on the same level. So having a game where a woman is free to do anything she wants, without being in any way limited or criticized because of her gender, would be innovative because it's something we don't see in real life.

Anything actually different they could do as far as male-centric mechanics are concerned would be incredible, if done right. I can't name 1 male-centric mechanic, so that would be pretty revolutionary. I also don't see how having a game where a woman can do whatever she wants is relevant. That's essentially the case in Tomb Raider.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:18 PM
Sorry, I've discussed TAA to death on other sites and at this point would rather just forget his existence. If you want a good summary, <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist">the RationalWiki page</a> should keep you busy for the rest of the evening. Have fun.

That link isn't working for me.

AssassinHMS
09-21-2014, 11:20 PM
Not true. That whole concept is what gave AC: Liberation a fresh new angle with the disguises. Aveline's lady persona was allowed into high-security areas, but couldn't freerun because that would be suspicious for a lady. Her slave persona could disguise herself as worker to get into restricted areas, was fast at pickpocketing but couldn't get into high society places without arousing suspicion. The assassin persona had the most freedom when it came to combat and movement, but also gained notoriety fast. The choice of female protagonist directly impacted gameplay mechanics and made for an innovative experience.

Actually, Liberation's "persona" system could have been used with a male protagonist just as well. It has no gender exclusivety or are you saying slaves were all female back then?
The system has nothing to do with the gender..

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:22 PM
I was only talking about AC1 for that example for the reasons you elaborated.

But what you just said now is exactly my point.

ACL was in an entirely different time culture and place. 1700s enlightenment French colonial culture.
Which gave the devs the creative leeway to make a female protagonist and have her make sense while bringing things to the table gameplay wise.

Juxtapose this with AC1s hardcore Islamic Crusades era culture. Where showing too much skin will see you put to death. Speaking out isn't a thing. And you must remained covered at all times(making you fairly conspicuous if you're out of place might I add).

Which is exactly why it would have made for a fascinating and challenging gameplay experience. In a world where men won't listen to her or take her seriously, a woman must teach herself to fight and to operate from the shadows. She uses disguises and societal expectations to her advantage. ("You're saying that weak little woman over there did it? A likely story! Now tell us where the real killer went!") She learns the hard way that neither the assassins nor Templars are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because both sides are led by men who don't think she belongs in their midst. Because of this rejection, she learns to question both sides, comes to her own conclusions and understands that nothing (that society has taught her) is true and everything (that she is capable and willing to do) is permitted. Tell me that doesn't sound at least every bit as compelling a story as that of a rich Italian playboy avenging his father's death or a devil-may-care pirate who grows a conscience.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:22 PM
Actually, Liberation's "persona" system could have been used with a male protagonist just as well. It has no gender exclusivety or are you saying slaves were all female back then?
The system has nothing to do with the gender..

This is true. It could well have been Ade instead of Aveline. With Assassin, Slave, and Gentleman Personas

The only gender specific ability was the charm skill.....which is debatably kind of sexist.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:23 PM
That link isn't working for me.

D'oh, forgot this place doesn't use HTML:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist

Shahkulu101
09-21-2014, 11:24 PM
Adewale posing as a gentlemen? Not sure he'd have got into many parties even with a fancy suit on - Achilles can't even go shopping...


Which is exactly why it would have made for a fascinating and challenging gameplay experience. In a world where men won't listen to her or take her seriously, a woman must teach herself to fight and to operate from the shadows. She uses disguises and societal expectations to her advantage. ("You're saying that weak little woman over there did it? A likely story! Now tell us where the real killer went!") She learns the hard way that neither the assassins nor Templars are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because both sides are led by men who don't think she belongs in their midst. Because of this rejection, she learns to question both sides, comes to her own conclusions and understands that nothing (that society has taught her) is true and everything (that she is capable and willing to do) is permitted. Tell me that doesn't sound at least every bit as compelling a story as that of a rich Italian playboy avenging his father's death or a devil-may-care pirate who grows a conscience.

That sounds awesome and I love how you made it play into the Creed.

The_Kiwi_
09-21-2014, 11:24 PM
Actually, Liberation's "persona" system could have been used with a male protagonist just as well. It has no gender exclusivety or are you saying slaves were all female back then?
The system has nothing to do with the gender..

All guards are men, are you saying a male assassin could dress all sexy and seductive to distract guards?

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:25 PM
Which is exactly why it would have made for a fascinating and challenging gameplay experience. In a world where men won't listen to her or take her seriously, a woman must teach herself to fight and to operate from the shadows. She uses disguises and societal expectations to her advantage. ("You're saying that weak little woman over there did it? A likely story! Now tell us where the real killer went!") She learns the hard way that neither the assassins nor Templars are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because both sides are led by men who don't think she belongs in their midst. Because of this rejection, she learns to question both sides, comes to her own conclusions and understands that nothing (that society has taught her) is true and everything (that she is capable and willing to do) is permitted. Tell me that doesn't sound at least every bit as compelling a story as that of a rich Italian playboy avenging his father's death or a devil-may-care pirate who grows a conscience.
And that would make for a very good story. However. Not in that particular time period. Doing such a thing would most likely see her publicly executed by the civilians not the Templars or assassins

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:27 PM
Actually, Liberation's "persona" system could have been used with a male protagonist just as well. It has no gender exclusivety or are you saying slaves were all female back then?
The system has nothing to do with the gender..

No, but it provided more context to a fairly simplistic mechanic which is why it worked so well. Just like the mechanic of freeing slaves could have technically been used for Edward's game, but it wouldn't have had the same context or impact as it did when we did it as Adewale, a black man. Context makes a difference.

AssassinHMS
09-21-2014, 11:31 PM
This is true. It could well have been Ade instead of Aveline. With Assassin, Slave, and Gentleman Personas

The gender doesn't matter in AC games. The only way to possibly change that is to make a story and gameplay that focuses heavily on gender. This is the only actual fresh change to AC (not necessarily good, but fresh nonetheless). However, after one game, this "formula" can never be used again as it will feel extremely repetitive and overdone due to its singularity. Having a female over a male is not beneficial in any way when talking just about the actual game.


All guards are men, are you saying a male assassin could dress all sexy and seductive to distract guards?

We can already distract guards. We can even hire courtesans.
If the Assassin was the actual distraction, then he/she would be in trouble to get out. The objective is to draw attention away from the Assassin so that he can make his move and not towards him/her.




Context makes a difference.
I just don't feel it in Liberation's case.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:39 PM
D'oh, forgot this place doesn't use HTML:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist

Judging based off that wiki page and the videos of his I have seen, I don't see the problem. I agree with him on pretty much everything, except for the e-begging.

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 11:40 PM
The only true difficulty would be dealing with important male people of the time since most likely they wouldn't even consider speaking with her of important stuff, provided she didn't had to deal with them I see no major problem, what? she can't mix with the crowd? no problem, she can stealth her way around, if no one sees her there's no problem, besides she would probably dress in a manly way, all of Ezio's female recruits dressed the same as the men and the hood is there to cover their faces.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:41 PM
Adewale posing as a gentlemen? Not sure he'd have got into many parties even with a fancy suit on - Achilles can't even go shopping...
.
If it were Louisiana yes he could. It was a far different culture from the 13colonies of Britain. In New Orleans there was a very high concentration of free blacks. And even a fairly relaxed temperament to interbreeding. Aveline's father and mother for example.

As I said before. The time and place matter A LOT for these kinds of things.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:43 PM
If it were Louisiana yes he could. It was a far different culture from the 13colonies of Britain. In New Orleans there was a very high concentration of free blacks. And even a fairly relaxed temperament to interbreeding. Aveline's father and mother for example.

As I said before. The time and place matter A LOT for these kinds of things.

Interracial breeding was actually a pretty popular practice in New Orleans then.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:47 PM
Interracial breeding was actually a pretty popular practice in New Orleans then.

Exactly that's my point. Thus why people are chill about Aveline being there. Like the party sequence for example. How do you think that would have gone over in Virginia of the same time for instance? Very different result.

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 11:49 PM
Adéwalé actually dresses as a slave in a mission.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:50 PM
Judging based off that wiki page and the videos of his I have seen, I don't see the problem. I agree with him on pretty much everything, except for the e-begging.

"Kincaid made a post on a Marilyn Manson fanforum in his pre-Youtube days in which he advocated a lowering of the age of consent to "12 or 13" and admitted to having had "extreme pedophilic fantasies."[6] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#cite_note-5) In fact, he has admitted to having "dated" a 14 year old girl when he was 23.[7] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#cite_note-6)"

Wow. I feel sorry for you.

ze_topazio
09-21-2014, 11:54 PM
First time I'm hearing about that dude and hopefully the last.

rprkjj
09-21-2014, 11:54 PM
"Kincaid made a post on a Marilyn Manson fanforum in his pre-Youtube days in which he advocated a lowering of the age of consent to "12 or 13" and admitted to having had "extreme pedophilic fantasies."[6] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#cite_note-5) In fact, he has admitted to having "dated" a 14 year old girl when he was 23.[7] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#cite_note-6)"

Wow. I feel sorry for you.


I'm 16 years old, and I'm a virgin. Whether or not I'm attracted to people my age when I'm much older is to be seen, but I do agree that anyone who has gone through puberty and is willing has every right to have sex with an older person. 12 or 13 might be cutting it a bit close though, considering people develop at different rates.

DumbGamerTag94
09-21-2014, 11:56 PM
Wow this thread is just getting really really weird now. Not to mention off topic.

TheHumanTowel
09-21-2014, 11:57 PM
They aren't attempting to change anything. Most of the threads are just suggestions and brainstorming for what can be done.

There's a difference between that. And healthy criticism. And demonizing Ubisoft as being masicistic chauvinists which is utter tripe. There are more females in this series. And represented stronger and more independently than any other series I've ever played. They don't need to be the protagonist to be represented well.

And as for the issue of them "shutting up about representation" as you so eloquently put it. That was not what I was saying at all and I didn't say WOMEN were te minority btw. I said the minority is the people who actually give a damn about this issue and scream like lunatics about it. Women actually currently make up the majority of gamers. But only a very very very small number actually give a flying **** if their protagonist is male or female.

The minority group of complaining psychopaths is not all female and is made up of all races and genders. However there is so few of this insane group why worry about satisfying them??

Ubisoft will make a female protagonist when they are good and ready. And all the sane majority of people will welcome her as any other. But when she does come. That insane leftist minority will still find fault with it because it didn't meet their expectations and demands. Or they will be satisfied with the female. But then move on to the next stupid issue. Like "well we finally got a woman....but why wasn't she Asian???!!!??!!!"

It's a never ending vicious cycle with these kind of people. It they tried to satisfy them they would never accomplish it and slowly alienate the sane people. Thus losing money and quality of product.

You can't please everyone. That's why ubisoft focuses on the sane majority. And not a psychopathic minority that is wayyyyyy too damn vocal.

Don't confuse noisyness with righteousness, size or significance.
I don't see the difference between suggesting settings for the series and suggesting the series have a female protagonist. Both are giving feedback to Ubisoft to try and influence their approach to the series. I agree with you that the people who scream like lunatics about it are the minority but I don't know why you'd think every other woman doesn't care at all about representation. There are plenty of women who enjoy and who'd like to have more representation in games. Look at SixKeys. It's ridiculous to assume the only people who care about this are insane leftist psychopaths as you put it.

SixKeys
09-21-2014, 11:58 PM
Yeah, which is why I said I didn't want to get into TAA in the first place. I'll shut up about him now.

Assassin_M
09-21-2014, 11:58 PM
If gender is totally irrelevant, then I expect everyone would be fine with it if the next 8 main games featured a female protagonist.
I would be fine with that. I don't care. You're assuming everyone who does not care would automatically not want a lengthy string of female protagonists.

rprkjj
09-22-2014, 12:00 AM
Wow this thread is just getting really really weird now. Not to mention off topic.

I agree, I didn't want to go there, just defending myself.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 12:02 AM
I don't see the difference between suggesting settings for the series and suggesting the series have a female protagonist. Both are giving feedback to Ubisoft to try and influence their approach to the series. I agree with you that the people who scream like lunatics about it are the minority but I don't know why you'd think every other woman doesn't care at all about representation. There are plenty of women who enjoy and who'd like to have more representation in games. Look at SixKeys. It's ridiculous to assume the only people who care about this are insane leftist psychopaths as you put it.

I'm not saying they wouldn't enjoy having a female protagonist. Perhaps my wording was poor. What I mean is that it really doesn't bother most of them or they would be whining about it. And they aren't. Because it's really not that important. They aren't that bothered by it.

Just as I wasn't worked up because ACL was a female lead. It's whatever.

It just isn't that big of an issue to the VAST MAJORETY of people. Including women. Who are the Majority of gamers.

SixKeys
09-22-2014, 12:02 AM
I would be fine with that. I don't care. You're assuming everyone who does not care would automatically not want a lengthy string of female protagonists.

I don't assume, I have reasonable expectations based on past experiences on these forums. Many similar threads have come and gone with people saying "I wouldn't mind a female for one game, but then they should go back to men" or "if we had to play as female, I wouldn't buy the game". Of course, I would be happy to be proven wrong if Ubi really did make 8 games in a row with female protags. Can't wait for that to happen. *starts holding breath* :rolleyes:

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 12:04 AM
I'm 16 years old, and I'm a virgin. Whether or not I'm attracted to people my age when I'm much older is to be seen, but I do agree that anyone who has gone through puberty and is willing has every right to have sex with an older person. 12 or 13 might be cutting it a bit close though, considering people develop at different rates.

I'm a student of law, crime, sociology and forensic psychology, and I can tell you that the reason the age of consent is so high is because in a court of law, there is an age at which someone cannot be held liable for their actions as they "lack the capacity" to understand what it is they're doing. Plus, as sexual predators prey on the young, if it is legal for young people to be with older people, then you couldn't prosecute the sick perverts as easily.
People who have sex young never get arrested anyway, 14-15 have sex all the time yet they don't get prosecuted as it isn't easily policed. The law is there to protect them though, and it should stay that way.

rprkjj
09-22-2014, 12:05 AM
I'm a student of law, crime, sociology and forensic psychology, and I can tell you that the reason the age of consent is so high is because in a court of law, there is an age at which someone cannot be held liable for their actions as they "lack the capacity" to understand what it is they're doing. Plus, as sexual predators prey on the young, if it is legal for young people to be with older people, then you couldn't prosecute the sick perverts as easily.
People who have sex young never get arrested anyway, 14-15 have sex all the time yet they don't get prosecuted as it isn't easily policed. The law is there to protect them though, and it should stay that way.

Which is why 12-13 is cutting it close. Let's get back on topic though.

Assassin_M
09-22-2014, 12:06 AM
I don't assume, I have reasonable expectations based on past experiences on these forums. Many similar threads have come and gone with people saying "I wouldn't mind a female for one game, but then they should go back to men" or "if we had to play as female, I wouldn't buy the game". Of course, I would be happy to be proven wrong if Ubi really did make 8 games in a row with female protags. Can't wait for that to happen. *starts holding breath* :rolleyes:
That's a minority of people, to be honest. I think most people here would continue buying the games even if the series would forever star females.

TheHumanTowel
09-22-2014, 12:15 AM
I'm not saying they wouldn't enjoy having a female protagonist. Perhaps my wording was poor. What I mean is that it really doesn't bother most of them or they would be whining about it. And they aren't. Because it's really not that important. They aren't that bothered by it.

Just as I wasn't worked up because ACL was a female lead. It's whatever.

It just isn't that big of an issue to the VAST MAJORETY of people. Including women. Who are the Majority of gamers.
I just disagree that the vast majority don't care. The fact that this issue constantly comes up and is discussed shows that a lot of people do care. And it's not like it's a non-issue because it's a fact that's there far more male protagonists in video games than female. And as you say there are a lot of female gamers now, so what's wrong with people calling for more diversity?

ze_topazio
09-22-2014, 12:30 AM
That's a minority of people, to be honest. I think most people here would continue buying the games even if the series would forever star females.

Or Connor.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 12:30 AM
I just disagree that the vast majority don't care. The fact that this issue constantly comes up and is discussed shows that a lot of people do care. And it's not like it's a non-issue because it's a fact that's there far more male protagonists in video games than female. And as you say there are a lot of female gamers now, so what's wrong with people calling for more diversity?

It just keeps popping up because very vocal minoreties do that kind of thing. The majorety typically remains silent on most things if they are satisfied with the status quo. That's what interest groups do. They constantly holler and bring things back to the fore. Thus creating a societal illusion/brainwashing that a certain issue is more significant or a group is much larger then they truely are.(Consider it like bumping a societal thread when it peters out due to lack of caring)

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more diversity or asking for it.

There is a problem with DEMANDING and MANDATING such things. It's ultimately up to the makers and their creative choice. Not some interest group that hounds them until they bend to their will. That's not much different from terrorism.

Assassin_M
09-22-2014, 12:32 AM
so what's wrong with people calling for more diversity?
The problem is halfarsing stuff to appeal to people. Developers like Jonathan Cooper saying that Aveline sharing Connor's as a "way to make female characters" and that "it would be easy". Terrible games would be hailed as "masterpieces" because they star a lead female and even marginally good games would be panned because they DON'T star a male.


Or Connor.
Yes, that too.

TheHumanTowel
09-22-2014, 12:42 AM
The problem is halfarsing stuff to appeal to people. Developers like Jonathan Cooper saying that Aveline sharing Connor's as a "way to make female characters" and that "it would be easy". Terrible games would be hailed as "masterpieces" because they star a lead female and even marginally good games would be panned because they DON'T star a male.
I don't know what you mean by the Jonathan Cooper thing. I really doubt the fact a game having a female protagonist would cause it to be hailed as a masterpiece. For an example from this series Liberation got a fairly lukewarm response. And anyway I don't think the possibility of devs producing a badly written female to appeal to people is any reason to stop calling for diversity. There's always going to be bad characters.

Assassin_M
09-22-2014, 12:53 AM
I don't know what you mean by the Jonathan Cooper thing. I really doubt the fact a game having a female protagonist would cause it to be hailed as a masterpiece. For an example from this series Liberation got a fairly lukewarm response. And anyway I don't think the possibility of devs producing a badly written female to appeal to people is any reason to stop calling for diversity. There's always going to be bad characters.
When Amancio said that it'd be hard to make females because it'd be double the work, he said that they could'v used Arno's animations because Aveline shared 90% of her animations with Connor--i.e he wanted to do a halfass job at animating a female.

Liberation is not a bad game and i'm not saying it's already happened with hailing bad games as good if the protagonist is female but it CAN happen and it's already started with panning video games simply because they have male leads.

TheHumanTowel
09-22-2014, 01:04 AM
When Amancio said that it'd be hard to make females because it'd be double the work, he said that they could'v used Arno's animations because Aveline shared 90% of her animations with Connor--i.e he wanted to do a halfass job at animating a female.

Liberation is not a bad game and i'm not saying it's already happened with hailing bad games as good if the protagonist is female but it CAN happen and it's already started with panning video games simply because they have male leads.
Ubisoft have done a half-assed job with most of their protagonists then because they reuse tons of animations. What video games have been panned because they've had male leads?

SixKeys
09-22-2014, 01:14 AM
There is a problem with DEMANDING and MANDATING such things. It's ultimately up to the makers and their creative choice. Not some interest group that hounds them until they bend to their will. That's not much different from terrorism.

Lol, asking for playable female characters in games is now equal to terrorism. That's enough forums for me for one day.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 01:49 AM
Lol, asking for playable female characters in games is now equal to terrorism. That's enough forums for me for one day.

Good lord y'all are so literal. Let me make myself clear.

Asking= kindly suggesting they add something

Extortion/terrorism= demanding something with no negotiation and supporting such demands with threats(be they violence,economic,harassment,etc). If you become a pain in the *** to people and make their existence miserable just because they don't do what you want. Then you're an ***.

Asking=/=Demands/Ultimatums.

SixKeys
09-22-2014, 01:52 AM
Good lord y'all are so literal. Let me make myself clear.

Asking= kindly suggesting they add something

Extortion/terrorism= demanding something with no negotiation and supporting such demands with threats(be they violence,economic,harassment,etc). If you become a pain in the *** to people and make their existence miserable just because they don't do what you want. Then you're an ***.

Asking=/=Demands/Ultimatums.

Since absolutely no-one has been doing anything akin to your second definition, I don't see why you brought up terrorism on this particular topic.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 02:03 AM
Defamation: in the false accusation of being sexist pigs from such "activists"

Social Stigma: you buy AC and you're a sexist pig.

Boycott campaigns: several groups have demanded a boycott of ACU and other AC games due to "female representation"

Harassment: people constantly hounding them with demands for female protags coupled with hateful accusations and name calling.

All of these are things currently being committed by "activists" against ubisoft and consumers of ubisoft products simply for these people not falling in line with their demands.

These are strongman/bullying tactics much like those used by the mafia, extortionists and terrorists.

It's a "do as I say or I make your life a living hell" mentality.

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 02:06 AM
"Boycott campaigns: several groups have demanded a boycott of ACU and other AC games due to "female representation"

Really? Has this actually happened?

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 02:15 AM
"Boycott campaigns: several groups have demanded a boycott of ACU and other AC games due to "female representation"

Really? Has this actually happened?

Unfortunately yes. Over 2,800 name petition has been going around the UK. And there's also a Thread on Steam encouraging "BOYCOTT Ubi!"

They are rabid animals I tell you.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 02:26 AM
Unfortunately yes. Over 2,800 name petition has been going around the UK. And there's also a Thread on Steam encouraging "BOYCOTT Ubi!"

They are rabid animals I tell you.

You mean the Change.org one? I just googled that and found it (http://www.change.org/p/ubisoft-discontent-at-lack-of-representation-in-ac-unity-protagonists). That's less than 3000 signatures from the entire world, not the UK, and it's hardly rabid. It's just people asking for a thing.

And there's a thread on Steam for a boycott? You mean they're saying they won't buy the game? So what? It's perfectly sensible to not buy a game if you don't like it. I do that every day. This doesn't sound like the mafia or terrorism either. This is one of the biggest selling games series of all time.

You're making your own accusations of "rabid" behaviour bitterly ironic with these posts.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 02:30 AM
"Boycott campaigns: several groups have demanded a boycott of ACU and other AC games due to "female representation"

Really? Has this actually happened?

People have run petitions against Ubisoft asking for everything from another Connor title to a game set in [City X]. I've seen calls for a boycott against Ubisoft because they were unhappy that Michael Ironside was replaced as the Splinter Cell protag's voice actor.

Real gangster isht.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 02:31 AM
Why does any of this warrant a petition or a boycott is my point. How is any of that necessary??

That doesn't strike anyone as a tad bit excessive???

There once was a time when petitions meant something. Trying to strike down evil things in the world like slavery. Or boycotts that actually were conducted over serious matters. Like taxation without representation.

Now those things have sunk to stuff this base, this low, and this petty. This is what society has come to. This is my point. We've become a society that goes straight for the most extreme retaliations in the face of the slightest perceived disagreeable thing.

Yes it is rabid if your taking things to those levels over such a superficial thing.

Why do we have to jump straight to angry petitions and boycotts. Do we need to be so over dramatic? What ever happened to a friendly letter to the office with such suggestions. Or an email to someone important on the team kindly explaining why you feel a female would be a good idea? Nope we go straight to a protest or a demanding petition.(and as you pointed out over even dumber things like settings)

Society has gotten wayyyyyy to uptight about EVERYTHING

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 02:34 AM
You are being seriously disingenuous if you've never seen AC petitions before. Get some perspective here. Nobody called you a sexist pig for playing AC or stigmatised you, none of this is "harrassment". Your life is not being made a living hell by complaints about a damn video game.

I will agree with you about petitions, though. I only sign petitions about real things, never video games, and it bothers me that people are misusing a site like change.org for something like this.

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 02:38 AM
You mean the Change.org one? I just googled that and found it (http://www.change.org/p/ubisoft-discontent-at-lack-of-representation-in-ac-unity-protagonists). That's less than 3000 signatures from the entire world, not the UK, and it's hardly rabid. It's just people asking for a thing.

And there's a thread on Steam for a boycott? You mean they're saying they won't buy the game? So what? It's perfectly sensible to not buy a game if you don't like it. I do that every day. This doesn't sound like the mafia or terrorism either. This is one of the biggest selling games series of all time.

You're making your own accusations of "rabid" behaviour bitterly ironic with these posts.

I buy games I don't like too. But these people are trying to get other people not to buy them, and that's wrong.

I'm going to assume you're a strong feminist, based on your replies.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 02:44 AM
I buy games I don't like too. But these people are trying to get other people not to buy them, and that's wrong.

I'm going to assume you're a strong feminist, based on your replies.

But they're not slapping AC boxes out of people's hands, or forming picket lines at Game Stop, or issuing death threats at Ubi employees! Nobody is going to be prevented from making or buying the games, so it's fine. Are you about to stop buying AC because of what anyone else says? Of course not. You'll stop if you agree with them (on a cold day in hell, I expect!).

What's happening with a petition is no different from what you did starting this thread. You wanted to know what people thought, and to see if they agreed with you. That's all any petition or boycott is trying to do.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 02:44 AM
I buy games I don't like too. But these people are trying to get other people not to buy them, and that's wrong.

I'm going to assume you're a strong feminist, based on your replies.

Exactly!!!! It's one thing to not buy a product for personal reasons. I do that all the time.

It's another thing entirely to demand others do the same thing or they are "sexist". That's radicalism. And that's not ok

Assassin_M
09-22-2014, 02:44 AM
Ubisoft have done a half-assed job with most of their protagonists then because they reuse tons of animations. What video games have been panned because they've had male leads?
Oh so because they half assed 2 of their protagonists, it's okay to halfass everything else? we all complain when they reuse animations, why should it be okay now? it's not like i'm being hypocritical here by not complaining when guys get halfassed.

Watch Dogs, before it was even released.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 02:52 AM
What's happening with a petition is no different from what you did starting this thread. You wanted to know what people thought, and to see if they agreed with you. That's all any petition or boycott is trying to do.

No no it isn't. If you want to know what people think you take a poll. That's what this thread is. It gauges public opinion(which btw according to this a majority either don't care or are open to it but not extremists about it). A boycott or a petition is an active and conscious movement to attempt to FORCE change to happen. Not a request or a poll but a DEMAND. These are VERY different things.

It's like if you don't mow your grass as often as you should. Either A: your neighbor kindly asks you to mow it more often(then you feel like you can do it because they asked so nicely and you hadn't realized it was an issue). Or B: your entire neighborhood sends a signed petition saying you need to mow your lawn or they will call the cops whenever you have a party or that you need to leave the neighborhood.

There's a serious difference between asking and a petition.

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 02:57 AM
But they're not slapping AC boxes out of people's hands, or forming picket lines at Game Stop, or issuing death threats at Ubi employees! Nobody is going to be prevented from making or buying the games, so it's fine. Are you about to stop buying AC because of what anyone else says? Of course not. You'll stop if you agree with them (on a cold day in hell, I expect!).

What's happening with a petition is no different from what you did starting this thread. You wanted to know what people thought, and to see if they agreed with you. That's all any petition or boycott is trying to do.

So? The fact that they're trying their best as legally possible to get people to not buy the games is just disgraceful. I'd sterilise those people if I was king of the world. I'd also sterilise people who believe in ghosts, and people who believe in psychics.

I don't suffer fools greatly, but I suffer extremists even less.

And Bmark is right, a petition is someone's way to force their view on the masses, a poll is a gathering of opinions.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 03:03 AM
No no it isn't. If you want to know what people think you take a poll. That's what this thread is. It gauges public opinion(which btw according to this a majority either don't care or are open to it but not extremists about it). A boycott or a petition is an active and conscious movement to attempt to FORCE change to happen. Not a request or a poll but a DEMAND. These are VERY different things.

It's like if you don't mow your grass as often as you should. Either A: your neighbor kindly asks you to mow it more often(then you feel like you can do it because they asked so nicely and you hadn't realized it was an issue). Or B: your entire neighborhood sends a signed petition saying you need to mow your lawn or they will call the cops whenever you have a party or that you need to leave the neighborhood.

There's a serious difference between asking and a petition.

You should look at the language on that petition. It's totally reasonable and well-meaning.

You keep screaming "DEMAND" and other things, and it's not there. Even if it was, I wouldn't care. They can say "demand" if they want - it would be a tiny shift in tone, and it doesn't turn it into anything more threatening.

The supposed victim isn't a person. I don't think I need to defend a corporation or a commercial product against demands for hypothetical improvements or alterations. Your lawn analogy is so far removed from anything that's going on here.

With more than 900 employees working on AC games, I'd be surprised if at least some of the people who are keen for more range in the protags aren't already on the payroll.

SixKeys
09-22-2014, 03:04 AM
But they're not slapping AC boxes out of people's hands, or forming picket lines at Game Stop, or issuing death threats at Ubi employees! Nobody is going to be prevented from making or buying the games, so it's fine. Are you about to stop buying AC because of what anyone else says? Of course not. You'll stop if you agree with them (on a cold day in hell, I expect!).

What's happening with a petition is no different from what you did starting this thread. You wanted to know what people thought, and to see if they agreed with you. That's all any petition or boycott is trying to do.

^^ F***ing THIS. Terrorism is threatening people with death, rape or violence, not making a d@mn online petition that anybody is free to sign or not sign. Y'all need some serious perspective in your lives if you think a simple petition - which absolutely anyone can start for any reason - asking for more representation in a video game is comparable to sending actual death threats.

I have seen absolutely no-one, radical feminist or otherwise, NO-ONE claiming that anyone who buys Unity is a sexist pig. I have seen NO-ONE asking for Ubi devs' heads on a plate. It's frankly ludicrous to make such claims as if they were happening in reality, and if you're going to make ludicrous claims, the burden of proof is on you. Show me proof of these people who supposedly call AC fans "sexist pigs", simply for buying the games. Show me proof that people have literally - not figuratively - threatened Ubi employees' lives or livelihood due to lack of female representation. Show me these comments, word for word, or I'm going to have to conclude you are simply making up claims out of thin air.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 03:07 AM
So? The fact that they're trying their best as legally possible to get people to not buy the games is just disgraceful. I'd sterilise those people if I was king of the world. I'd also sterilise people who believe in ghosts, and people who believe in psychics.

I don't suffer fools greatly, but I suffer extremists even less.

And Bmark is right, a petition is someone's way to force their view on the masses, a poll is a gathering of opinions.

No, they're doing as little as possible. People mock e-petitions and dismissively call it "clicktivism" for precisely that reason -- it's the least you can do.

Sterilising extremists... oh, I see what you did there :)

(I've seen these petitions do amazing things, though, like when my government tried to fast-track the sale of our national forests into private hands and were stopped because it was uncovered and the petition spread so quickly. E-petitions can do great things, for serious causes)

SixKeys
09-22-2014, 03:08 AM
So? The fact that they're trying their best as legally possible to get people to not buy the games is just disgraceful. I'd sterilise those people if I was king of the world. I'd also sterilise people who believe in ghosts, and people who believe in psychics.

I don't suffer fools greatly, but I suffer extremists even less.

Hahahahaha!! "I hate extremists, that's why I think it's totally reasonable to forcefully sterilise anyone who believes in things I don't".

You're the best troll ever. :D

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 03:12 AM
Hahahahaha!! "I hate extremists, that's why I think it's totally reasonable to forcefully sterilise anyone who believes in things I don't".

You're the best troll ever. :D

You should have seen the thread I made on a video about ghosts saying "People who believe in ghosts should be sterilised", I got so much hate for that, but I kept going.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:23 AM
Not a total troll haha
You should have seen the thread I made on a video about ghosts saying "People who believe in ghosts should be sterilised", I got so much hate for that, but I kept going.

What I said here is slightly true, just over exaggerated, so not a total troll :P

Oh no exaggeration for emphasis or to prove a point isn't allowed apparently. They have to take everything you say literally rather than as a comparison between to similar things!

It's to be expected you can't argue with a radical. They are willing to justify just about anything as long as it benefits their goals. Dismissing any evidence you provide them as an acceptable means to their end. If you make a valid point or scenario. Then they simply brush it off as "that's wrong"(with no reasoning) or "that doesn't apply here" or "that doesn't matter with this". You can't beat someone at a game when they make up the rules as you go. And that's what radicals do.

They can go to the most extreme responses over the silliest of issues and they claim they are perfectly rational. Yet you exaggerate one thing to demonstrate a point and you're suddenly a loon.

I-Like-Pie45
09-22-2014, 03:32 AM
Greedy liberals

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:33 AM
And I think the poll on this thread speaks for itself and shows why there is no female protagonist here simply due to the demands of the few.

Let's say the people who voted are ubisoft.

Say 61 people are working on the next AC. 33 of them don't care. 21 are open to trying a female and lean that way. 1 radical Demands a female.

The history advisers give the rundown on the time period and strongly advise a male protag.

39 people are cool with that. 21 are bummed but understand and are ok with the decision. 1 person is angry.

So we have 60 to 1. That's how insignificant this annoying minority is.

Even if all 21 people who kind of want a female sided with the radical. The 39 people who would rather just have whatever character makes sense for the period still outnumber that coalition 39 to 22.

If this represents the general population and ubisoft staffs view. Then now we can see that whining is futile. And females will happen. But only when it makes sense to do so.

Shahkulu101
09-22-2014, 03:36 AM
I think that because Assassin's don't conform to social norms anyway (goths) then we can have a female protagonist any time.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:40 AM
I think that because Assassin's don't conform to social norms anyway (goths) then we can have a female protagonist any time.

Exactly. They can. However it needs to be the majority consensus of the creative team. And as this poll shows. That is only likely to happen in the event that it makes sense to do so to that majority of 39. Something that clearly happened before with 1700s New Orleans and Aveline. Perhaps another setting will give us a female. Who knows

But the numbers speak for themselves. It won't be due to a petition or a demand or boycott because the decisive majority don't care.

The_Kiwi_
09-22-2014, 03:40 AM
1 radical Demands a female

It's actually 1 doorknob
and doorknobs are voting for men only

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:43 AM
It's actually 1 doorknob
and doorknobs are voting for men only

Oh sorry nevermind that then. I haven't read the op in a while. I thought that person was someone who insisted upon a female.

Oh well either way. That actually dooms them more.

40 to 21. Decisively defeated by a large margin.

D.I.D.
09-22-2014, 03:46 AM
Sample size: 61

Who said "statistical best practices"? Damn terrorists.

Shahkulu101
09-22-2014, 03:51 AM
Exactly. They can. However it needs to be the majority consensus of the creative team. And as this poll shows. That is only likely to happen in the event that it makes sense to do so to that majority of 39. Something that clearly happened before with 1700s New Orleans and Aveline. Perhaps another setting will give us a female. Who knows

But the numbers speak for themselves. It won't be due to a petition or a demand or boycott because the decisive majority don't care.

I don't think the creative team have or ever will have a consensus on what gender the protagonist should be - because of the nature of games guys are the default. I'm sure it's the job of the writer(s) and them alone to decide who the main character is, and I'm sure the whole wider creative team would be fine with a female protagonist in a main game and the proposal would only raise eyebrows among paranoid executives.

It's a bit ludicrous to say that the majority of a development team have to want a female character for one to be featured in a game. If that's the case why not do that with males? If somebody wants to put a female in their game why should there be boundaries?

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:54 AM
It's the only data we have to go with. People from many different countries and backgrounds. Male female. Black white. Islamic Christian. Etc. Etc. And if what we are trying to make predictions about is a creative design team of let's say 200 people. Then yes 61 is an effective sample to draw inferences from. That's slightly more 1/4 of the size of the population in question.

And the results tell us there's a 2/1 disadvantage for the agenda pushers. 2/3s of the group roughly doesn't give a toss.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 03:57 AM
I don't think the creative team have or ever will have a consensus on what gender the protagonist should be - because of the nature of games guys are the default. I'm sure it's the job of the writer(s) and them alone to decide who the main character is, and I'm sure the whole wider creative team would be fine with a female protagonist in a main game and the proposal would only raise eyebrows among paranoid executives.

It's a bit ludicrous to say that the majority of a development team have to want a female character for one to be featured in a game. If that's the case why not do that with males? If somebody wants to put a female in their game why there shouldn't be boundaries.
You don't get what I'm saying. The same constraints apply to male protags as well.

The 39 people majority still has to decide a male is appropriate or not. That 39 people controls what happens. If they decide a female suits then we could have 10 consecutive females in theory.

Both male and female need that 39 people. Whoever wins depends on the scenario. But both have the same odds.

SolidSage
09-22-2014, 03:58 AM
If we could just get past the need for game play to be memories in the animus, we could have proper, fully customizable characters.

It's not like that narrative element holds that much water anyway, when inspected closely.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 04:01 AM
Nobody is standing there mandating a male or female protag. These are decisions arrived by consensus by the creative team and writers collectively.
Nobody is stopping either. It's democratic(I know how evil that is right?!). How dare they disagree with my views through the democratic process. Damn them.

Stormpen
09-22-2014, 04:02 AM
If Aveline made sense as a main character, why not a female character in another time period? It's been established that the Assassins don't have a problem with recruiting women.
I'm not saying that a female MC would make for a better game, but it would be nice for a change. I enjoyed the Aveline DLC, and was really disappointed at how short it was.

Shahkulu101
09-22-2014, 04:05 AM
Nobody is standing there mandating a male or female protag. These are decisions arrived by consensus by the creative team and writers collectively.
Nobody is stopping either. It's democratic(I know how evil that is right?!). How dare they disagree with my views through the democratic process. Damn them.

Do you have proof that these sort of things take place within development teams?

Because it sounds a bit stupid to me. Seems a bit restrictive if you can only create art a certain way if the majority of the team agree with you. Did the development team have a vote on whether Edward should be a pirate or not?

EDIT: I get the feeling I'm missing the point here...

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 04:08 AM
It's possible.

But it's up to the creative people.

Who then get approved by a BOARD of executives

Both the creative team and the board are democratic bodies and the majority rule.

And according to this polls findings 2/3 people don't care what the protag is.

So then it should be fairly easy for a female to make it through said bodies if the proposal makes sense.

So it is not impossible to see a female protagonist in the near future. And there is no all powerful boogy man bigot blocking anything from happening. It's whole bodies of people's consensus.

So I am confident we will see a female when the time is right.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 04:12 AM
Do you have proof that these sort of things take place within development teams?

Because it sounds a bit stupid to me. Seems a bit restrictive if you can only create art a certain way if the majority of the team agree with you. Did the development team have a vote on whether Edward should be a pirate or not?

EDIT: I get the feeling I'm missing the point here...
Ummm what would the point of a "team" be if there is no discussion and consensus among them??? We have a creative director to settle such disputes(if anyone's word is law it'd be theirs) and shape the overall idea of the game. But a design team has rights to voice their opinion. And if a majority wan something I'm sure the creative director is on board(unless he wants an awkward unhappy workplace).

They don't just have one person do all the brainstorming, writing, designing, story boarding, etc. These are things arrived at in meetings. With different people voicing their ideas.

I can't think of one public accessible article,speech,tv show, movie, game, etc. That has not been edited, changed, brainstormed, modified, etc. By more than one person. There's always a groups say in any product that's out there. It's never a solo thing ever.

Stormpen
09-22-2014, 04:14 AM
I think the point is that there's no bigotry per say, as in there's no top of the food chain executive going; 'women? FIE!', but as everyone's been pointing out, the deciding voters don't care either way, so the devs fall back on the default option: a male MC.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 04:23 AM
I think the point is that there's no bigotry per say, as in there's no top of the food chain executive going; 'women? FIE!', but as everyone's been pointing out, the deciding voters don't care either way, so the devs fall back on the default option: a male MC.

Not necessarily. If the initial proposal were a female according to the vast majority of people not caring if the protag is male female or space alien. The. Theoretically it should pass.

I think the problem would then have to be either that it is not getting proposed(unlikely). Or more likely. It is being proposed. But it's just decided each time thus far that either it doesn't make sense. Or it just doesn't fit and or just doesn't suit the period.

TheHumanTowel
09-22-2014, 07:48 AM
Oh so because they half assed 2 of their protagonists, it's okay to halfass everything else? we all complain when they reuse animations, why should it be okay now? it's not like i'm being hypocritical here by not complaining when guys get halfassed.

Watch Dogs, before it was even released.
Watch Dogs got great reviews. Really not the best example of a game that was "panned". The closest I've seen to what you're describing is reviewers said Aiden was dull and didn't have much personality, which is a reasonable complaint. And nothing to do with him being a man.


Oh no exaggeration for emphasis or to prove a point isn't allowed apparently. They have to take everything you say literally rather than as a comparison between to similar things!

It's to be expected you can't argue with a radical. They are willing to justify just about anything as long as it benefits their goals. Dismissing any evidence you provide them as an acceptable means to their end. If you make a valid point or scenario. Then they simply brush it off as "that's wrong"(with no reasoning) or "that doesn't apply here" or "that doesn't matter with this". You can't beat someone at a game when they make up the rules as you go. And that's what radicals do.

They can go to the most extreme responses over the silliest of issues and they claim they are perfectly rational. Yet you exaggerate one thing to demonstrate a point and you're suddenly a loon.
If you seriously think people asking for more female protagonists in video games are "radicals" you have an incredibly warped perspective on this. Lesbian separatists are radicals, people who'd like to see more women in media are not.

Jackdaw951
09-22-2014, 02:41 PM
I apologize. I thought you were one of them spinning it as "creative freedom" when they really mean "females or die". I'm very sorry. I'm just soooooi sick of this issue.

And I know. Leftists strong arming industries to push an agenda is nothing new. I'm a history buff and a political science major. TV shows, News(tv and print), magazines, movies, games. Etc. All get bullied and bribed by leftist maniacs since at least the last century. It's nothing new. It's kind of the Liberal MO. They threaten, sue, and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Yet they like to make conservatives like myself out to be the boogy man who's out to get you. While they're busy telling you that you can't enjoy playing video games or watching football unless you're a sexist pig.

They just try to guilt trip and intimidate people into falling in line even if you don't believe in their stuff. By marginalizing you and treating you like some kind of monster for doing ordinary things. They force you to except their view or face constant harassment or social outcasting. 99% of things on liberal agendas most people that support the issue are only supporting in principal not taking it to regulations and forcible actions levels.

For example this issue. Most people agree that they should have female characters. However the difference is in how and why.

Normal people+conservative view on this= they can make a female character if they so choose. Who cares?

Leftist/über liberal= there MUST be women. There aren't ENOUGH women. So we must force you to make more until there are just as many as men and if you don't well cut funding, threaten your job, boycott your product, or sue until you do.

So creative liberty is thrown out the window with that agenda. They basically force the industry to make females where it makes no sense. Giving the creators no choice and no freedom.

That's why I could never get behind liberalism. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

To on one hand promote understanding, kindness, fairness and liberty. While at the same time. Dividing everyone on issues of race, sex, gender, orientation. Suing screaming intimidating and arguing with everyone. Forcing people to play by your rules and do what you want. And to systematically remove the range of freedom and liberty at your disposal.

They make it all sound really nice with the stuff aforementioned. And then shoot themselves in the foot with the other.

They have no right to call themselves "liberals"
If anything they would be called
"Regulators" "Normalizers" "Stop free thinkers" "Opinion Haters" "Racists(that pay so much attention to face and sex trying to "tear down barriers" that they highlight the differences and fuel division)

I've just had enough of their ilk. The self righteous misguided nutjobs.

This thread sure grew since last I looked at it. Anyway, apology accepted. I suspected you just misinterpreted my post, perhaps reading "I do care" as "I don't care". No big!

Anyway, you're describing the liberalism of my youth, back in the 70s. Then, the liberal movement was all about peace, inclusion and tolerance. Today, militant liberals are ironically the most intolerant political group. Anyone who doesn't think like them is at best derided, and at worst destroyed. They are, in effect, left-wing fascists--elitists who will enforce their view of the world, and oppress those who don't bow to their will. Not all socialist ideologues or feminists are zealots, though, to be fair. Many are just as reasonable as the rest of us, and I myself have quite a few socialist ideals. But we must defend ourselves from those who would usurp our freedoms in the name of changing the world for the better. Injustice by any other name (e.g., "social justice") is still injustice.

topeira1980
09-22-2014, 02:59 PM
i voted NO but as stated above - this answer doesnt really represent the answer i was aiming for. it's not that i dont care. it's that i do not want to play a female. i would only like to play a male protagonist. i prefer playing as my own gender since it helps me put myself in the place of the hero. in games where i can create my own charater (skyrim, mass effect, saints row etc) i create charaters that kinda look like me for the same reasons.

Hans684
09-22-2014, 03:29 PM
I never should have posted that video, what a mess I've made.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-22-2014, 06:05 PM
A petition is an attempt to force change.

Ubi hasn't changed because they see no reason for it. And let's be honest which of these settings has it made sense to have a female over a male lead thus far? And they've given us Aveline lest we forget. But the rabid beast of leftist radicalism isn't satisfied with that.

Women have had more representation in these games than say. Hispanics or Asians. But we don't consider that because nobody's making a stink over it.

They can't just give something on demand because one small minority cries about it. It will happen eventually I'm sure. When it makes sense and suits the story.

It's just like you can't buy your kid a toy at the store every time you go just because they throw a temper tantrum. The kid will get a toy eventually. Just not when they are whining about it.

Petitions exist for a reason. People sign them if they agree, they don't sign if they don't agree. You can't even be "forced" to sign a VIRTUAL petition as no one can give you dirty looks or insinuate anything over not signing if you wish to not sign it.

Really? Because last I checked, Feudal Japan and China are two of the most requested settings for games which would undoubtedly feature an asian protagonist. And if it didn't? wow. Just wow.

And an hispanic location would ALSO be cool. But that's not what this thread is about. Again, we're discussing women and women only right now. Society in general and indeed, games, could be much more open. There's a reason many people calling for females repeatedly bring up the term "default, white male lead" -- because they're OFTEN white. Ubisoft has arguably had a far better track record with racial minorities than most companies. Heck, they started the series with an Assassin from Syria. But the reason we mention that is because that's how much of the games feature that kind of character. A while male is nothing wrong (I AM a white male for god sake... I'm also hispanic on my father's side and I'd love to see an Hispanic AC) but to see it over and over and over and over.... is ridiculous. In fact, partially because there are many blacks who play video games and yet so very few black protagonists. Sure, not all of them may see an issue with that but some definitely would.

But that's not what this thread is about. It is specifically geared toward the discussion of gender. Not race. And furthermore, I think the best game to have a female lead would be a game set in China -- either Shao Jun or some unestablished new female Assassin from a different time period. So there's your asian influence. Next, why don't we visit saaaay... Chile or Portugal or Brazil or....

As long as the cities are good, I'm fine with any setting. Because, GASP, I care about gameplay too!


Lololol, the Amazing Atheist. Yes, I'm sure the guy who in no uncertain terms told a rape victim that he hopes she will get raped again and offered to do it himself (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist#Reddit_meltdown) has very reasonable and mature views on feminism.

Oh jesus. This guy is a creep.


Indeed, we’ve seen history through the eyes of 5 male Assassins. Thing is, they saw what they saw mostly as citizens (as part of their time’s society) and as Assassins (their take on the creed, their part in the war against Templars, etc.). The games never focused on their gender. Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward could have been replaced with women and nothing would have changed. Sure, the scene where Altair was surprised to see a woman fighting as well as a man would still have been used but in reverse and we would see a lot of flirting with men in AC2 but the stories told in those games and the experiences would not feel any different.
What you are unofficially using to back up your claim, that a female Assassin would make for a fresh story, is a story that focuses on the protagonist’s gender.

If the story is like previous games, the gender of the protagonist will make no difference.

What is actually fresh here, is a story focused on gender discrimination and such and not the gender of the protagonist.
The gender of the protagonist doesn’t trully add anything to the experience, especially in an increasingly fictional world like AC’s.
And I don't know if I'd like to see "gender" as the focus of an AC story. I don't even like when the story gets too personal. I'd rather a story like AC1's where we get to know the protagonist through his actions as an Assassin and not by following his personal story and where we constantly look for the big picture instead of spending most of the game contemplating a mere egocentric piece who seems to think it's the puzzle.

Agreed, it is quite overused by now but there are many other different formulas. Gender could change the formula a bit. If they want to do it, they can but it’s far from being their only option.
I also agree, that the visual refresh is quite a weak reason.

So even if it doesn't matter, then there's absolutely no reason not to have females be more prevalent. That literally disproves everyone talking about "cramping their artistic freedom" because changing the gender of the protagonist is as easy as a light switch to you. And it could be. It could be that easy if they wanted it to be. Fine. Give me another tried and true story of a young character watching their family murdered by Templars but make it a girl and now it's already different than AC2. And that goes for the other games too.

If it doesn't matter, then you wouldn't fight so much nor waste your time trying to always show why it's okay for there to be a male lead in every entry of the series.

But it does seem to matter as much to the people who "don't care" as to the ones who do.


Nearly every thread on these forums is an attempt to force change if you're looking at it that way. Asking for specific gameplay mechanics or settings. Yet people only go crazy about artistic freedom when it's about issues like this. People have complained about lack of representation of minorites but even still what bearing does that have on this issue? Women should shut up about representation because look at the nice quiet asians? Women aren't a "small minority" by the way they're 50% of the human race.

I don't see anything wrong with criticising these games for a lack of diversity in protagonists or how doing so is some impingement on Ubisoft's sacred artistic freedom.

Games are art. Games can be criticized. But only the parts that THEY want. Like, gameplay? Fine. Graphics? Fine. Boring protagonist? Fine. Story? Fine. Excessive DLC? Fine. Women? STOP IT! ARTISTIC FREEDOM!

No. Every aspect of a game can be criticized. I have posted numerous times about how I view the colonial cities of AC3 to be inferior to the cities of the Ezio trilogy. I've also praised customization and always wished there was more and now there is more in ACU. But as soon as I make a thread criticizing the lack of females? Well, that's just simply crossing a line!

I have praised ACU for it's seemingly huge revamp to the core pillars and more -- the parkour, the stealth, the combat, the graphics, the customization, the city of Paris, the seamless interior spaces, the devs like Amancio for looking as though theyre the best thing to happen to AC.

But I've also criticized their decision not to simply make a female protagonist from the onset. Instead, they once again opted for a male. Elise looks to be in a significant role but I can't help but think "gee, if they new they were going to have an interesting and compelling female.... why the heck not just put her in the role of main character and switch her and Arno around?


something something liberals = devil


Which is exactly why it would have made for a fascinating and challenging gameplay experience. In a world where men won't listen to her or take her seriously, a woman must teach herself to fight and to operate from the shadows. She uses disguises and societal expectations to her advantage. ("You're saying that weak little woman over there did it? A likely story! Now tell us where the real killer went!") She learns the hard way that neither the assassins nor Templars are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because both sides are led by men who don't think she belongs in their midst. Because of this rejection, she learns to question both sides, comes to her own conclusions and understands that nothing (that society has taught her) is true and everything (that she is capable and willing to do) is permitted. Tell me that doesn't sound at least every bit as compelling a story as that of a rich Italian playboy avenging his father's death or a devil-may-care pirate who grows a conscience.

+1


I don't assume, I have reasonable expectations based on past experiences on these forums. Many similar threads have come and gone with people saying "I wouldn't mind a female for one game, but then they should go back to men" or "if we had to play as female, I wouldn't buy the game". Of course, I would be happy to be proven wrong if Ubi really did make 8 games in a row with female protags. Can't wait for that to happen. *starts holding breath* :rolleyes:

Should I get someone who knows CPR? 'cause...cause I don't know how. I'll go ask a doctor.


I'm a student of law, crime, sociology and forensic psychology, and I can tell you that the reason the age of consent is so high is because in a court of law, there is an age at which someone cannot be held liable for their actions as they "lack the capacity" to understand what it is they're doing. Plus, as sexual predators prey on the young, if it is legal for young people to be with older people, then you couldn't prosecute the sick perverts as easily.
People who have sex young never get arrested anyway, 14-15 have sex all the time yet they don't get prosecuted as it isn't easily policed. The law is there to protect them though, and it should stay that way.

This we can agree on.

I didn't realize the Amazing Atheist is such a freaking creep and pervert.


Defamation: in the false accusation of being sexist pigs from such "activists"

Has anyone called anyone sexist? I sure haven't. I may have said something someone said sounded vaguely sexist or that there longheld and deeply entrenched views of women in society and media that are sexist (not necessarily misogyny, mind you) but that doesn't make the person sexist or misogynistic. Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned pigs...


Social Stigma: you buy AC and you're a sexist pig.

I'm buying ACU and I'm criticizing the lack of females. I don't recall calling myself or anyone else purchasing the game a sexist pig. Also... again, can't think of anyone calling anyone a pig on here. Maybe I missed it?


Boycott campaigns: several groups have demanded a boycott of ACU and other AC games due to "female representation"

A boycott is not a terrorist or extremist act. I've boycotted the purchase of Koch-made groceries. While I wouldn't compare not buying AC to this example -- there's a reason for boycotts/petitions and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Bus_Boycott

Both are boycotting something they disagree with. That's THEIR prerogative. But here you are trying to force those people NOT to boycott a game and see if others also share their view... Hm.


Harassment: people constantly hounding them with demands for female protags coupled with hateful accusations and name calling.

I've been pretty respectful here I think. I'm not the one making posts about the "Evils of liberals" or "annoying feminazis" like some have on here. If anyone is name calling, it's on your side of the aisle.

People have often hounded them to add in a crouch button as well. What harassment. See? Look! Ubisoft finally succumbed. Way to stick to your guns, Ubisoft. You finally included a crouch button and I bet it was shoehorned in due to demand :rolleyes:


All of these are things currently being committed by "activists" against ubisoft and consumers of ubisoft products simply for these people not falling in line with their demands.

These are strongman/bullying tactics much like those used by the mafia, extortionists and terrorists.

While I enjoy the comparison to the mafia... I feel the mafia would take issue with this comparison. They made intimidation an art form. I don't think someone calling for Ubisoft to have more female protags is quite the same as a mafioso showing up to your door with two big scary guys and saying "hey, those are some nice knee caps ya got there.... it'd be a real shame if something were to happen to them... I'm saying we'll break your ******* knees if you don't _________."

Also...call me crazy but I haven't seen anyone making videos of them beheading anyone from Ubisoft. Or otherwise attempting to harm them or threaten them. Either on this thread, the forums in general, or even anywhere. Y'know, real terrorism.


No no it isn't. If you want to know what people think you take a poll. That's what this thread is. It gauges public opinion(which btw according to this a majority either don't care or are open to it but not extremists about it). A boycott or a petition is an active and conscious movement to attempt to FORCE change to happen. Not a request or a poll but a DEMAND. These are VERY different things.

It's like if you don't mow your grass as often as you should. Either A: your neighbor kindly asks you to mow it more often(then you feel like you can do it because they asked so nicely and you hadn't realized it was an issue). Or B: your entire neighborhood sends a signed petition saying you need to mow your lawn or they will call the cops whenever you have a party or that you need to leave the neighborhood.

There's a serious difference between asking and a petition.

Yes, because we should never listen to the minorities in our society!


And I think the poll on this thread speaks for itself and shows why there is no female protagonist here simply due to the demands of the few.

Let's say the people who voted are ubisoft.

Say 61 people are working on the next AC. 33 of them don't care. 21 are open to trying a female and lean that way. 1 radical Demands a female.

The history advisers give the rundown on the time period and strongly advise a male protag.

39 people are cool with that. 21 are bummed but understand and are ok with the decision. 1 person is angry.

So we have 60 to 1. That's how insignificant this annoying minority is.

Even if all 21 people who kind of want a female sided with the radical. The 39 people who would rather just have whatever character makes sense for the period still outnumber that coalition 39 to 22.

If this represents the general population and ubisoft staffs view. Then now we can see that whining is futile. And females will happen. But only when it makes sense to do so.

A majority doesn't mean you're right. If that were the case, many evils in the world would never have changed. Not saying that Ubisoft is EVIL but to claim "hahaha it's 3 against 1!" is as ridiculous as any schoolyard way of winning an argument.


i voted NO but as stated above - this answer doesnt really represent the answer i was aiming for. it's not that i dont care. it's that i do not want to play a female. i would only like to play a male protagonist. i prefer playing as my own gender since it helps me put myself in the place of the hero. in games where i can create my own charater (skyrim, mass effect, saints row etc) i create charaters that kinda look like me for the same reasons.

Which is exactly why there should be more females. Because I'm pretty sure some females have the same feelings as you do in respect to THEIR gender.

Sesheenku
09-22-2014, 06:24 PM
Nah I don't care what gender the protagonist is, never have in any game.

As anyone on this forum knows, the discussion irritates me a bit, I feel like to complain about it is to ignore all the games with female protagonists even though there are plenty and even one in the AC series itself.

Plus I think the issue is often overblown. Then there's the matter of making threads on forums stating you won't buy a game just cause it doesn't have the character in the gender you want which is basically just annoying people and making other people that want female protagonists look very bad indeed. I mean seriously did you have to make a thread? Why not just shut up and not buy? Maybe send an email to the company? You know the thread you're making is only going to appear like an arrogant and extremely annoying post and you still do it.

That's not to anyone specific so don't freak out about that part of the post.

I'll just say it's the equivalent of this scenario.

Have you ever had a game or book or something you liked and then some person comes on a forum of discussion for it and then tells you they won't buy it because of something insignificant?

"They changed the main character so I won't buy it!"

"The main character is male or female unlike the first one so I won't buy it!"

"I don't like the new main character even though I haven't played the game so I won't buy it!"

"The game takes place in a world different from the first games so I won't buy it!"

You know, so on and so forth. These are things that to most people have zero impact but it seems that in today's world anything and everything has to make everyone feel good and happy about themselves or it's bad and must be changed.

You made clothes for slim and short people? HOW DARE YOU! You must immediately make them for large tall people as well! You made a video game catered to a male audience (In a non offensive way that doesn't demean females)? HOW DARE YOU! You must immediately make this cater to females or you're dirty people! How dare you make what you want to make with your money and time!

Etc. etc.

In our race to set the scum of the earth straight, we seem to have forgotten that such people rarely learn and that methods such as we've been using only punish the decent people who already respect everyone.

DumbGamerTag94
09-22-2014, 06:41 PM
@BoB

I never meant anything personal against you. I never said YOU did anything I have said. I did say that there ARE some people doing such things.

Don't assume that I am accusing you of such things there is such thing as sensible liberals. I take umbridge with the more radical people doing unecesscary things to accomplish their goal.

I actually share your goal. And think there should be a female. But I'm not trying to force Ubi into a position where they must do it because I am confident it will happen on it's own.

I can't defend things I don't agree with just because they are on my side. Like for instance. I find wealthy tax cuts and industrial agricultural subsidies abhorrent. I don't take part in the mob mentality of today. Where you eithe fall 100% in line with Liberal or Conservatibe radicals. I'm an individual with my own views.

I refuse to defend those I disagree with just because they are on my side. There is such a thing as being too far one way or the other. And it's this mob mentality of all with or against us that drives the world farther and farther apart and more twoard the radical ends of the spectrum.

We've reached a point when we seem to think it's ok to defend radicalism as long as it suits us. Something I refuse to do no matter what end of the political spectrum you are on.

Don't assume I'm some kind of Uber Conservatibe nut. I'm not. I actually stand to the left on most social issues and only take umbridge with the means by which the solution be reached.

And what is a petition but an attempt to intimidate?
Who has ever been happy to recieve one?
Why is it politicians always hold one up as a threat?
They aren't pleasent and while nobody is forced to sign them. The recipient is being forced to bend to the will of said signers even if the signers do not represent the whole.
It's something that is for more serious issues. Opposing war, taxes, racist laws
Now radicals have brought it to be something used for disagreements over creative choices. It makes a mockery of the institution of petitioning.

It's just causing unesscesscary division and making strong actions become comical. We live in an era now where petitions are brushed off and laughed at when they were a serious matter years ago. It's been abused that much. It's a classic case of the boy who cried wolf effect.

But I hold nothing against you personally. And liberals=/= the devil for me. Just to clear that up.
However radicals(of any kind) do equal the devil to me as they are a cancer on society.

Kakuzu745
09-22-2014, 07:37 PM
It might sound insensitive but I really have never understand why people care about the gender or the race of a character...I mean as long as the design is insanely cool should we even care? Check Shao Jun´s new look...I love it, I really do not care if it is a woman or a man, it is just freaking nice.

Fatal-Feit
09-22-2014, 07:48 PM
It might sound insensitive but I really have never understand why people care about the gender or the race of a character...I mean as long as the design is insanely cool should we even care? Check Shao Jun´s new look...I love it, I really do not care if it is a woman or a man, it is just freaking nice.

For some people, video games are an escape. They like to immerse themselves in the roles they want to play. It's just easier and more comfortable to adapt in a role that's of the same gender or race they want.

Hans684
09-22-2014, 08:05 PM
I care about potential, pushing limits, going beyond normal(standard) with things like games but when Shao Jun(great potential) gets ruined in a DLC with a new setting that could have been a game of it's own other than a 90s style game and before anyone start accusing me if being a hypocrite I'm not against different styles but it should depend on the situation. Connor is last gen so his next "game"(currently Shao Jun's) could have been the style used for Shao Jun's game. Shao Jun's game could have been the current gen AC released next year or sometime in the future.