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Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 02:28 AM
I personally feel more excited for Elise due to Ubi actually seeming to be investing into her Character. Not to mention she's a Templar, as she's also apparently better with a sword than Arno with an interesting backstory to match.

And before you go: "Well we haven't played yet." Just here me out when I say that I REALLY feel more invested in not just Elise, but Paris, The Templars, and the MD more than Arno per se. I'm not saying Arno is boring, just that he doesn't stand out yet...plus I think his story is very copy-paste from the other games as well.

What do you guys think?

Are you really feeling Arno or Elise? Or both?

Or maybe neither?

JustPlainQuirky
09-18-2014, 02:30 AM
You're not the only one.

Her character design be smokin'

#shallowreasonisshallow

Shahkulu101
09-18-2014, 02:34 AM
Well if by interested you mean sexually ar -

I mean umm -- well it's too early to make a judgement because it's to early and err stuff...

Dat booty doh

I-Like-Pie45
09-18-2014, 02:38 AM
too short for my tastes

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 02:43 AM
Well if by interested you mean sexually ar -

I mean umm -- well it's too early to make a judgement because it's to early and err stuff...

Dat booty doh

Nah, Them Thighs Doh.

But yeah, Dat Booty Doh :rolleyes:

locketcoket
09-18-2014, 02:57 AM
I personally feel more excited for Elise due to Ubi actually seeming to be investing into her Character. Not to mention she's a Templar, as she's also apparently better with a sword than Arno with an interesting backstory to match.

And before you go: "Well we haven't played yet." Just here me out when I say that I REALLY feel more invested in not just Elise, but Paris, The Templars, and the MD more than Arno per se. I'm not saying Arno is boring, just that he doesn't stand out yet...plus I think his story is very copy-paste from the other games as well.

What do you guys think?

Are you really feeling Arno or Elise? Or both?

Or maybe neither?

I wholeheartedly agree. She's more interesting than Arno, is more than a pretty face, and her poster thing looks so cool with her sword in ine hand and pistol in the other. BTW we never saw Maria in action, Rose was never in action, Sofia was brains, Adha was well a pretty face, Cristina was a pretty face, and Caterina took advantage of Ezio.

Also I agree Mayrice. Hottest love interest yet.

Ureh
09-18-2014, 04:01 AM
@locketcoket We never saw Maria in action?! Altair dueled her remember? Unless you meant something else...

---
I'm intrigued by both of these characters. Really interested in seeing how an Assassin and Templar - who also happen to be lifelong friends and lovers - will cooperate and make compromises together.

king-hailz
09-18-2014, 05:17 AM
I agree with you 100% but out of the two she is so much more interesting right now! However I believe it's because they are advertising her character more than Arno... Idk why they are doing that but I think it's good.... We have no expectations from him so we can see him without really knowing how he is going to be... well at least I will..

jeordievera
09-18-2014, 08:25 AM
I am excited for them both as two sides of one coin. I think it will be interesting to see them grow (apart).
Elise seems more badass with attitude which I like and Arno sarcastic don't give a f** kind of guy which I also like so yeah, I can't really tell for whom I am more excited for.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
09-18-2014, 09:04 AM
Well I wish they had opted to make the protagonist a girl from the beginning instead, personally. Elise would have been great (if she was an Assassin instead and Arno was a Templar)

From the sounds of it, Arno's backstory seems pretty similar to Ezio's or Connor's with what we know of it. The most noteworthy difference being his childhood friendship with Elise... which, really, is only because she sounds interesting. To me, Arno has nothing standing out yet. I've yet to think of him as a character and so far think of him as a blank slate with which I shall customize.

GoldenBoy9999
09-18-2014, 12:38 PM
I'm more excited for Arno personally. I like his personality so far in the gameplay clips and Elise just isn't appealing to me. I like how he's part of a bortherhood, mainly that part in the first cinematic where he gives that nod in the action scene. :cool:

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 01:17 PM
@Golden

As Cool as Arno seems atm, I personally think he just doesn't stand out for me to care for him unlike Elise. His Story is arguably like a mix between Ezio's and Connor's stories if you think about it.

Hell, even Shay stands out more to me at this point...not because he's a Templar, but because he gives me a reason to care about him.
( His eradication of the Colonial Assassins)
Whilst with Arno, it's...discovering who killed your family? YAY!!! We haven't seen this before...
( Sarcasm)

At this point, I feel more invested in Co-op than Arno as seen by the Trailers. Haven't seen a STORY trailer yet...which is kinda tradition at this point.

GoldenBoy9999
09-18-2014, 01:29 PM
@Namikze Yes, Arno's backstory is clichéd. I think Personality and Story/Drive are 2 important but separate things. One of Ezio's and Connor's parents were both killed when they were young but they have completely separate personalities. Ezio was a more fun guy while people think Connor was soft-spoken. I AM more excited for Elise's story but based on that one Gamescom clip of Arno talking to that guy at the beginning I like his personality so far. I've yet to see much of Elise talking so I'll keep my mind open.

Farlander1991
09-18-2014, 01:34 PM
One should remember that in the Arno/Elise dynamic, Elise is the one going for revenge (i.e. the motivations that we already had in AC protagonists), Arno's quest is a quest of redemption. I'm not sure why or how he feels responsible, but, hey, I guess we'll find out.

Honestly, this reminds me a bit of the time when Edward was called an Ezio clone, when he was far from it. Or the time when Connor said "let the Patriots fight their war, I'm here for the Templar" and a bunch of people were peeing themselves out of excitement how awesome and badass he was and then those very same people said 'WTF?!' when they played the game (note, I don't agree with those people in either cases, but just pointing out things that happened). It's too early to tell who's more interesting (I am intrigued by an Assassin/Templar love story, though), especially considering how ACU marketing company isn't actually revealing a lot.

EDIT: Also, tropes are not necessarily cliches. We know the general information about Arno's backstory, but not enough detail to actually say if it's a cliche or a well-used trope.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 01:39 PM
@Namikze Yes, Arno's backstory is clichéd. I think Personality and Story/Drive are 2 important but separate things. One of Ezio's and Connor's parents were both killed when they were young but they have completely separate personalities. Ezio was a more fun guy while people think Connor was soft-spoken. I AM more excited for Elise's story but based on that one Gamescom clip of Arno talking to that guy at the beginning I like his personality so far. I've yet to see much of Elise talking so I'll keep my mind open.

I will as well, but I'd kill for an Elise Trailer...showing her talk and being a BA would be Epic.

And yes, Arno may have more, but it doesn't equal better IMO. Ubi just really haven't given me a reason to care as well.

Plus you gotta admit:Elise and them Thighs though! :rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 01:47 PM
@Farlander

I agree...this does remind me of the time I waited for BF as I criticized Edward to the ends of the earth. Same thing here, I don't hate Arno, just that he doesn't stand out for me to care.

Sure, it's pre-judge, but I just don't feel any excitement for him as all. Does that mean I'll hate him? No...

I just think is spending more time on Co-op and his love story rather than himself. Hopefully, they make up for it. ;)

Kakuzu745
09-18-2014, 03:44 PM
I actually like her design a lot but I am not excited about her since we have barely seen anything from her. I just hope the plot around Elise and Arno is not cheesy and lame...actually it would be cool to have to choose to kill her at the end or not.

Kaschra
09-18-2014, 04:09 PM
Look at my avatar an you know who I am excited for :cool:

I don't dislike or hate Arno by any means, but so far he wasn't able to catch my interest.
Elise on the other hand... I'm really excited for her and her story.
I hope once I play Unity, I will warm up to Arno too.

Reptilis91
09-18-2014, 04:11 PM
Well, we don't know that much about them. A few words of description means nothing. So I don't understand how you guys have already some clear cut opinions.:confused:

I can only say that I can't wait to see their childhood with papa templar.

SlyTrooper
09-18-2014, 04:27 PM
Elise = Templar. Me = happy.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 04:48 PM
Look at my avatar an you know who I am excited for :cool:

I don't dislike or hate Arno by any means, but so far he wasn't able to catch my interest.
Elise on the other hand... I'm really excited for her and her story.
I hope once I play Unity, I will warm up to Arno too.

*High Fives*

zkorejo
09-18-2014, 05:38 PM
Wow this place is full of Templar lovers.

I am not excited for any of the two. I am more excited for the entire package. I just cant be excited until I have played the game, I know OP pointed that out but thats just the way it is. I cant pass a judgement on characters I have not read about/heard of/played with. But if I had to pick one at this stage it would definitely be Arno, since he is an assassin and I dont really agree with the Templar's code.

After a long time (ever since Ezio's trilogy ended) it looks like we will be having a full fledged Assassin who actually knows what he is doing. I could be completely wrong but Arno looks like will be a true Assassin unlike the last two protagonists, which makes him a strong character IMO.

AssassinHMS
09-18-2014, 05:46 PM
I personally feel more excited for Elise due to Ubi actually seeming to be investing into her Character. Not to mention she's a Templar, as she's also apparently better with a sword than Arno with an interesting backstory to match.
I still don’t get how Elise could be more interesting than Arno. Because she’s better with the sword? Because she is a Templar? It makes no sense. Besides, Arno’s story is about redemption while Elise’s is only about revenge (which is more similar to Ezio’s).
And why do you say Ubisoft is investing more into her character? I honestly have no idea because I haven't followed those aspects of the game very close.



And before you go: "Well we haven't played yet." Just here me out when I say that I REALLY feel more invested in not just Elise, but Paris, The Templars, and the MD more than Arno per se. I'm not saying Arno is boring, just that he doesn't stand out yet...plus I think his story is very copy-paste from the other games as well.
I still don't understand why you're more invested in Elise than Arno but, anyway, I think it’s good to be more invested in the bigger picture (in the Templars and the Assassins, in the Modern Day and in the City and its conspiracies) than in the main character (or any of the other characters for that matter). Back in AC1, the star of the show wasn’t exactly Altair. He was simply the conduit that allowed the player to see the world through his eyes. From AC2 onward, the protagonist became the center of the universe and both gameplay and story became more about following his/her life and doing the things that the Assassin did the way he did them rather than focusing on the bigger picture and treating the Assassin as a small piece in a much greater puzzle. It even came to the point where the character became more important than his Assassin persona. People started demanding closure to the protagonist’s life (“When does he die?” “Who was his wife?” Etc.). AC1 was AC1 but, from then on, it became the Ezio saga, the Connor game and the Edward game.
So I hope Arno is no more than a tiny piece that does its part and that the real protagonist of the game are the indirect consequences of this little piece’s actions as an Assassin.

king-hailz
09-18-2014, 06:55 PM
We don't really know anything about any of them! We just like Elise better because she sounds more bad *** and looks, well... you know ;)

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 07:06 PM
Wow this place is full of Templar lovers.

I am not excited for any of the two. I am more excited for the entire package. I just cant be excited until I have played the game, I know OP pointed that out but thats just the way it is. I cant pass a judgement on characters I have not read about/heard of/played with. But if I had to pick one at this stage it would definitely be Arno, since he is an assassin and I dont really agree with the Templar's code.

After a long time (ever since Ezio's trilogy ended) it looks like we will be having a full fledged Assassin who actually knows what he is doing. I could be completely wrong but Arno looks like will be a true Assassin unlike the last two protagonists, which makes him a strong character IMO.

Merely reciting the Phrase: "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted." And having a massive brotherhood doesn't always make an Assassin. It's about the mere practice of the Creed, and actually learning what it means to change your perspective of the world. Connor and Edward are perfect examples of this. Look at how they mention the Creed, how they feel about it, the people they interact with,
( I.e Haytham, Mary, Adewale) and most importantly how they feel about the Creed at the end of the Game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g59vyPocZQQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

^ This video shows Connor's struggle of living by the Creed, of how he's sacrificed so much to have nothing but hope for Humanity and a better future as he pledges himself to the Assassins.

( Skip to 0:58)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRgg5KuCVI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

^ This shows Edward coming to terms with the Assassins and understanding what "Nothing is True, Everything is permitted." Truly means as seen throughout his journey. To say that if nothing is True, then why believe anything? And if anything is permitted, then why chase every desire?
Why?
Because it demonstrated Edward's first step of having a new perspective of the world around him so that he could be a better person.

I Respect your opinion, but I disagree when you say Connor and Edward aren't Asssassins. In my opinion, they couldn't have been even more.

r4inm4n1991
09-18-2014, 07:16 PM
I am actually excited for how Arno and Elise will complement each other as characters.
Also, the name of the four members of the assassin council have been revealed: Malva, Wikstrom, Drasna and Siebold.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 07:23 PM
I still don’t get how Elise could be more interesting than Arno. Because she’s better with the sword? Because she is a Templar? It makes no sense. Besides, Arno’s story is about redemption while Elise’s is only about revenge (which is more similar to Ezio’s).
And why do you say Ubisoft is investing more into her character? I honestly have no idea because I haven't followed those aspects of the game very close.



I still don't understand why you're more invested in Elise than Arno but, anyway, I think it’s good to be more invested in the bigger picture (in the Templars and the Assassins, in the Modern Day and in the City and its conspiracies) than in the main character (or any of the other characters for that matter). Back in AC1, the star of the show wasn’t exactly Altair. He was simply the conduit that allowed the player to see the world through his eyes. From AC2 onward, the protagonist became the center of the universe and both gameplay and story became more about following his/her life and doing the things that the Assassin did the way he did them rather than focusing on the bigger picture and treating the Assassin as a small piece in a much greater puzzle. It even came to the point where the character became more important than his Assassin persona. People started demanding closure to the protagonist’s life (“When does he die?” “Who was his wife?” Etc.). AC1 was AC1 but, from then on, it became the Ezio saga, the Connor game and the Edward game.
So I hope Arno is no more than a tiny piece that does its part and that the real protagonist of the game are the indirect consequences of this little piece’s actions as an Assassin.

For your first paragraph, those were just examples that I just threw in just to show that I'm not just excited for not only a Templar leading role, but an actual female that I can give a **** about. And that's what I meant by Ubisoft investing into her character...
And her story can change like how Connor's did, going from Revenge to Freedom of everyone.
And Arno's "Redemption" story just seems like a cheap version of Edward's Story with a hint of Revenge from Ezio's Story..hardly any identity SO FAR.

And you're right...I am more invested in the Bigger picture as you mentioned. :) And it's not so much how they're presented, because OBVIOUSLY Arno wins, I'm mainly just talking about Originality...something BOTH Elise and Shay have over Arno atm.

Kakuzu745
09-18-2014, 08:32 PM
Merely reciting the Phrase: "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted." And having a massive brotherhood doesn't always make an Assassin. It's about the mere practice of the Creed, and actually learning what it means to change your perspective of the world.

Not really...it is also about being an actual part of the brotherhood of assassins. If you practice all of that and you have nothing to do with assassins, you are not an assassin.

Truth be told if by the end of the game Edward had not contacted the assassins at all he would not be considered an assassin even if you think he was the embodiment of the creed.

m4r-k7
09-18-2014, 08:35 PM
Arno seems cool so far. I can't really tell anything by written pieces of information detailing his characteristics like every other game. When I read about Connor before the game, I liked him, but in the game I found him a bit dull. Before AC 4, Edward sounded like an uninteresting pirate, but he turned out to be my favourite AC character. I liked in the Gamescom Demo when Arno was talking as I really liked his sarcastic tone. Hopefully he will be a really interesting character.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 08:56 PM
Not really...it is also about being an actual part of the brotherhood of assassins. If you practice all of that and you have nothing to do with assassins, you are not an assassin.

Truth be told if by the end of the game Edward had not contacted the assassins at all he would not be considered an assassin even if you think he was the embodiment of the creed.

I actually think Connor is the embodiment of the Creed as seen by his Ideals and such. Edward is the representation of what the Creed does to an Individual's lifetime as seen by how he came to understand it.

And how would we know if he helped or not? There still is that Decade gap between AC4 and Forsaken, who knows what he could've done? Regardless, by his knowledge or not, he still killed the West indies Templars for the Assassins to take over so he did help though.

And by that Logic, many allies of the Assassins such as La volpe, Rosa, Stephane, and Rebecca didn't kill any Templars on screen, but did they help the brotherhood in some way? In my opinion, yes.

Same with Edward.

Sushiglutton
09-18-2014, 09:04 PM
Think we know to little to say tbh. Looking forward to the story in general though.

Kakuzu745
09-18-2014, 10:43 PM
I actually think Connor is the embodiment of the Creed as seen by his Ideals and such. Edward is the representation of what the Creed does to an Individual's lifetime as seen by how he came to understand it.

And how would we know if he helped or not? There still is that Decade gap between AC4 and Forsaken, who knows what he could've done? Regardless, by his knowledge or not, he still killed the West indies Templars for the Assassins to take over so he did help though.

And by that Logic, many allies of the Assassins such as La volpe, Rosa, Stephane, and Rebecca didn't kill any Templars on screen, but did they help the brotherhood in some way? In my opinion, yes.

Same with Edward.

Never said any of that...just said that your statement is wrong...you are not an assassin only because you merely live by the creed.

No one is talking about killing templars in the screen.

It is like saying you are a priest because you live like one. In the end you are not a part of the catholic church so you are not a priest.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 10:59 PM
Never said any of that...just said that your statement is wrong...you are not an assassin only because you merely live by the creed.

No one is talking about killing templars in the screen.

It is like saying you are a priest because you live like one. In the end you are not a part of the catholic church so you are not a priest.

So someone who has a massive following, but doesn't practice what they preach is considered more dedicated than someone who represents it altogether?

That makes no sense....who cares how Edward done it, how he cared about it, or his allegiance at the time...he STILL killed the Templars regardless.

Which still helped the Assassins.

And when I say Practice, I really just mean their belief and such.

Kakuzu745
09-18-2014, 11:13 PM
So someone who has a massive following, but doesn't practice what they preach is considered more dedicated than someone who represents it altogether?

That makes no sense....who cares how Edward done it, how he cared about it, or his allegiance at the time...he STILL killed the Templars regardless.

Which still helped the Assassins.

And when I say Practice, I really just mean their belief and such.

I dont know why you keep trying to defend Edward or something...I am not saying anything related to the game. I am just saying that you dont get a title just because you do stuff related to the title.

Are you a cop just because you stop criminals?

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 11:22 PM
I dont know why you keep trying to defend Edward or something...I am not saying anything related to the game. I am just saying that you dont get a title just because you do stuff related to the title.

Are you a cop just because you stop criminals?

Oh... 0.0

I...AM....Sorry. ^.^

But on topic, well who says the individual can't earn or work for the title? If you kill a Templar on accident or on purpose, you indirectly help the Assassins in some way don't you? I personally would call every ally we've had Asssassins not because they kill Templars, but because of what they do for the overall cause combined with their dedication are what make them one in my eyes.

Kakuzu745
09-18-2014, 11:35 PM
Oh... 0.0

I...AM....Sorry. ^.^

But on topic, well who says the individual can't earn or work for the title? If you kill a Templar on accident or on purpose, you indirectly help the Assassins in some way don't you? I personally would call every ally we've had Asssassins not because they kill Templars, but because of what they do for the overall cause combined with their dedication are what make them one in my eyes.

Np ;)

Well to be honest I think they have always made a distinction between the two of them...and to be honest if Edward had never joined the Brotherhood he probably should be considered as an ally hehe.

Taking that into consideration and trying to get on topic...I think Elise will be an ally at some point.

Namikaze_17
09-18-2014, 11:55 PM
Np ;)

Well to be honest I think they have always made a distinction between the two of them...and to be honest if Edward had never joined the Brotherhood he probably should be considered as an ally hehe.

Taking that into consideration and trying to get on topic...I think Elise will be an ally at some point.

I guess you have a point...maybe both are needed?

And Elise could be an Ally... :)

RinoTheBouncer
09-19-2014, 12:07 AM
I’m excited for both of them together. Their story together. The fact that an Assassin knows someone is a Templar and both are still in love, regardless of that is really interesting. Quite honestly, if it was Arno alone, I wouldn’t give a sh*t about him cause I’m tired of this whole “meet the deadliest new assassin”, nor do I care about the pack that follows him or the whole co-op thing. Elise and their love together are probably the only things making the story worth my attention.

Namikaze_17
09-19-2014, 12:14 AM
@Rino

I agree! Without this "Love Story", I honestly don't really care for Arno. ( Pre-Judgement) he just seems like copy-paste of all the other Characters.

EmbodyingSeven5
09-19-2014, 12:34 AM
it seems like they rarely give away much of what our main character will be like. they always look like the strong/silent type until game

naumaan
09-19-2014, 01:43 AM
well playing ac1, ac ezio series, and ac blackflag reminded me in the very early stage of playing that how awesome these characters and stories were developed,
altair had a different agenda
ezio had a different agenda

connor had an ezio copy agenda, didnt like that tho

and
edward had a totally different agenda

and i cannot believe at the moment that the arno's agenda will be the same as above

and as amancio said, there is going to be a surprise at the very start of game so, i m plugged in both of these characters ..

what i dont understand is why you guys like templars so much ?

Namikaze_17
09-19-2014, 01:52 AM
How exactly is Connor's agenda like Ezio's?

Ureh
09-19-2014, 03:39 AM
How exactly is Connor's agenda like Ezio's?

I guess both of them wanted to avenge their family. But that's really where the similarity ends, I think. :p

Namikaze_17
09-19-2014, 03:56 AM
Connor only wanted Revenge on Charles Lee for what he did to him as a Child. Which had NOTHING to do with the Templars until he saw that picture in Achilles's basement.

But eventually that changed as the story progressed.

Farlander1991
09-19-2014, 07:42 AM
Connor had some revenge side-motivations, but it was never his main agenda, calling it a copy of Ezio is... wrong, IMO.
Connor goes to Achilles to protect his people from the colonists and Templars. Only after he manages to convince Achilles he sees that dude who choked him as a child was a Templar, and as Connor thinks he burned the village, he wanted to kill him.
That never became Connor's MAIN motivation, though, it's just that both goals aligned, and the revenge part eventually disappeared altogether.
As Connor is trained by Achilles, Connor's desire to protect the freedom of the village transforms into the desire to protect the freedom of all.
And after Connor learns that Washington was responsible for burning his village, he proceeds to hunt down Charles Lee not out of revenge, but out of duty and responsibility to his order and cause.

D.I.D.
09-19-2014, 07:55 AM
Connor had some revenge side-motivations, but it was never his main agenda, calling it a copy of Ezio is... wrong, IMO.
Connor goes to Achilles to protect his people from the colonists and Templars. Only after he manages to convince Achilles he sees that dude who choked him as a child was a Templar, and as Connor thinks he burned the village, he wanted to kill him.
That never became Connor's MAIN motivation, though, it's just that both goals aligned, and the revenge part eventually disappeared altogether.
As Connor is trained by Achilles, Connor's desire to protect the freedom of the village transforms into the desire to protect the freedom of all.
And after Connor learns that Washington was responsible for burning his village, he proceeds to hunt down Charles Lee not out of revenge, but out of duty and responsibility to his order and cause.

It's very similar though. It doesn't really matter what you consider to be a primary or secondary motivation, since it still means that the series has an obvious plot trap that it needs to find ways to avoid. If it goes "tragedy-then-anger-then-yoda-then-training-then-justice" too often, then it will become samey and that's the Ezio/Connor/Aveline story in a nutshell (maybe Arno's too).

Farlander1991
09-19-2014, 08:02 AM
It's very similar though. It doesn't really matter what you consider to be a primary or secondary motivation, since it still means that the series has an obvious plot trap that it needs to find ways to avoid. If it goes "tragedy-then-anger-then-yoda-then-training-then-justice" too often, then it will become samey and that's the Ezio/Connor/Aveline story in a nutshell (maybe Arno's too).

If we're talking nutshells, Ezio is a classical Hero's Journey in a nutshell.
Connor is not a classical Hero's Journey. It starts as such, but then subverts the Hero's Journey tropes - hard.

D.I.D.
09-19-2014, 08:09 AM
If we're talking nutshells, Ezio is a classical Hero's Journey in a nutshell.
Connor is not a classical Hero's Journey. It starts as such, but then subverts the Hero's Journey tropes - hard.

Hmm. I disagree with that. It doesn't subvert anything, in my view. All it does is end on a bum note, which is quite refreshing in a way, but that's not quite the same thing as subverting a trope. It ends exactly the way I expected it to end, because a historical story about a Native American's quest for respect and fair treatment couldn't end any other way without being horribly dismissive of whole cultures.

Farlander1991
09-19-2014, 08:44 AM
Hmm. I disagree with that. It doesn't subvert anything, in my view. All it does is end on a bum note, which is quite refreshing in a way, but that's not quite the same thing as subverting a trope. It ends exactly the way I expected it to end, because a historical story about a Native American's quest for respect and fair treatment couldn't end any other way without being horribly dismissive of whole cultures.

Subverting something doesn't necessarily mean being unexpected. It's just, well, subverting.

As is with all things, this is all a manner of interpretation of course, but I find ACIII story interesting for a couple of reasons. First, Connor is actually the only Hero archetype protagonist in the whole AC series so far. Everybody else we've got is an antihero, but Connor - he's idealistic, he's courageous, has defined moral values, is pro-active (he's the only AC protagonist who starts the Hero's Journey by his own choice and decision, not have had something forcefully pushing to that path), basically, the heroic qualities are dominant in him from the get go.

And even more curious is that this Hero, the only Hero we've got in the AC universe, gets shafted of the traditional Hero's Journey. It's all fairly conventional until the end of the 'Tests, Allies and Enemies' part. What we've got is:
a) Main allies that Connor has gained throughout the journey proved to be not as loyal as he thought (most prominent one being Washington's betrayal, as well as Connor's best childhood friend turning against him - compare it to Ezio's Hero's Journey where the allies proved their worth and allegiance)
b) In the Ordeal, Connor doesn't confront his main adversary (he finds Haytham instead of Charles Lee, compare it to Ezio who gets to confront Rodrigo himself). Though, confronting Haytham is also confronting his greatest fear (that being not finding reconciliation with his father), so this is only half-subverted.
c) After passing the Ordeal, Connor doesn't get the Reward (the amulet is not on Haytham, compare it to Ezio who gets the Apple after passing the Ordeal, AND also getting induced into the Assassin Order)
d) And finally, when Connor gets back to the Ordinary World with the treasure, there's no Ordinary World to get back to. His home is abandoned, the treasure doesn't have any power to change neither the ordinary nor the special world to the better (at least in his lifetime).
The steps of the Hero Journey have an opposite result and conclusion from what it usually is, therefore it's a subversion. Sure, you wouldn't expect it to be played straight with a Native American protagonist and the historical period, but does it make it any less a subversion? I don't think so.

naumaan
09-19-2014, 09:23 AM
Connor had some revenge side-motivations, but it was never his main agenda, calling it a copy of Ezio is... wrong, IMO.
Connor goes to Achilles to protect his people from the colonists and Templars. Only after he manages to convince Achilles he sees that dude who choked him as a child was a Templar, and as Connor thinks he burned the village, he wanted to kill him.
That never became Connor's MAIN motivation, though, it's just that both goals aligned, and the revenge part eventually disappeared altogether.
As Connor is trained by Achilles, Connor's desire to protect the freedom of the village transforms into the desire to protect the freedom of all.
And after Connor learns that Washington was responsible for burning his village, he proceeds to hunt down Charles Lee not out of revenge, but out of duty and responsibility to his order and cause.

you just said what i thought, he was against charles lee because charles lee was responsible for burning the village, but it turned out washington was, and he did nothing against him, instead helped him get control .. and then playing games with washington,, seriusly? ..

if i get to know a person burned my village or home, i ll never even look at him again :3

naumaan
09-19-2014, 09:29 AM
but anyways, if arno and elise have same goals and cause, elise want revenge and arno wants redemption then it seems, arno was responsible for what happened, and elise consider him responsible too .. or i dont know .. there is gonna be a great chemistry between two of them if they are in love or may be another plot loophole ... still its better to be optimistic ..

Farlander1991
09-19-2014, 09:42 AM
you just said what i thought, he was against charles lee because charles lee was responsible for burning the village, but it turned out washington was, and he did nothing against him, instead helped him get control

But that's the whole point. The fact that it's not about revenge or retribution for Connor, that he goes beyond that for the greater cause. If Connor would do something against Washington he would undermine everything that they've done to ensure that the people get freedom and independence from the crown. Connor's goal was to make sure Templars don't take control and that the people are free. In the end, he killed Lee not because he was responsible for burning the village, but because he was a Templar. And he didn't do anything against Washington not because he has forgiven him, but because given the situation and everything they have done, that was the best chance for a better future for as many people as possible.

And when Connor speaks to Washington after the game, their conversation is not 'hey whaddup bro, let's play some games yo!' Connor scolds and rails at Washington because Georgie thought about retiring after all the sacrifices they have made to ensure the outcome of the revolution. In the end, they're not friends, but they do respect each other, because, once again, it's about the greater cause for Connor, not about what's best for him or what's going to make him feel better inside.

Namikaze_17
10-10-2014, 05:00 AM
So since most to everyone has seen the Trailer, I figured to bring this back...

So where is your stance now on the two?

Or is it still too early? :p

I-Like-Pie45
10-10-2014, 05:05 AM
l HOPE THAT ELISE IS REALLY MASCULINE SO VIDEO GAMES CAN FINALLY HAVE A GOOD FEMALE CHARACTER THAT ISN'T GROSS OR FEMININE.

Loki Will Rule
10-10-2014, 02:00 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but I find her accent really annoying. I'm English myself, but I still find the whole English accent in a French setting really off putting. In terms of her actual character she seems interesting, and I look forward to reading the book from her perspective.