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andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 10:35 PM
Is someone worried about the combat in ACU. We have seen some in the making of videos and in the first demo, but somehow something bothers me .I played the Ezio saga again and I felt a lot more joy from the combat in that game,rather than black flag .The animations were 10x times better and it just felt better. So far , in unity ,the thing that worries me is that it somehow doesnt seem fluid .I hope that I am wrong ,and that in their quest to make it harder ,they have not made it dull looking and somehow flow breaking .Could someone extinguish my worries or do you feel the same?

JustPlainQuirky
09-14-2014, 10:37 PM
Nah.

Worried implies I care.

I don't.

AC combat (aside from naval) has always been boring to me. I doubt it'll change. So my expectations are low.

But hey if it's good then that's cool.

andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Well the one thing i hate in recent games is when someone attacks and you counter with one button only,there is a slow motion moment before clicking the attack button that irritates me a lot

m4r-k7
09-14-2014, 10:40 PM
I reckon combat will still be easy, despite what they have said. I found this video earlier on, its off screen gameplay of the gamescom demo:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWDMDsSwO4&index=1&list=LL7UU8UPfx8DDyii_IUs8Z1Q

Skip to 8:02 and Arno kills the guard like Connor and Edward does in 3 hits..

But the combat definitely looks more fluid than AC 3 and AC 4 where the counter kills were ridiculously over the top and strange looking. I preferred AC 1 combat the most even though most people hated it.

andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 10:46 PM
I too enjoy AC1 combat the most. And whats with the white dash that is left after Arno slashesh with the sword?

m4r-k7
09-14-2014, 10:50 PM
I too enjoy AC1 combat the most. And whats with the white dash that is left after Arno slashesh with the sword?

Its the last know position system. It shows where the guard saw him which would allow him to hide. It was in Splinter Cell Conviction and Blacklist. :D

andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 10:53 PM
Its the last know position system. It shows where the guard saw him which would allow him to hide. It was in Splinter Cell Conviction and Blacklist. :D

I did not mean that.BTW that last known position thing is pretty neat .I meant that when arno deals a strike with the sword,a white dash like wave is left .Get me ? other ac games have it ,but here is just plain annoying (for me)

m4r-k7
09-14-2014, 10:55 PM
I did not mean that.BTW that last known position thing is pretty neat .I meant that when arno deals a strike with the sword,a white dash like wave is left .Get me ? other ac games have it ,but here is just plain annoying (for me)

Oh yeah, that looks really stupid...most AC's have done it I think

andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 10:57 PM
And off topic ,did everyone see some footage on youtube that showed the disguise feature for a brief time . The video states that its leaked beta ,so i pressume thats why it isnt on here

SpiritOfNevaeh
09-14-2014, 10:58 PM
Not too worried. Just don't want the same combat in AC1.

Besides, this game is supposedly going to require more stealth than the other games so the combat will be important nonetheless.

Namikaze_17
09-14-2014, 11:06 PM
Meh, I'm not worried. Whether it's Combat from AC1-Ezio Trilogy or Combat from AC3- AC4, it's always been easy and repetitive if you think about it.

Combat in AC2 isn't really that different from AC3/ AC4 as some claim that AC2 is harder than both except the Counter button is the same with different controls and Timing.

Point is, I'm not really expecting Combat to be hard in Unity.

andreycvetov
09-14-2014, 11:14 PM
Meh, I'm not worried. Whether it's Combat from AC1-Ezio Trilogy or Combat from AC3- AC4, it's always been easy and repetitive if you think about it.

Combat in AC2 isn't really that different from AC3/ AC4 as some claim that AC2 is harder than both except the Counter button is the same with different controls and Timing.

Point is, I'm not really expecting Combat to be hard in Unity.

I know it was easy but i dont know why , did enjoy it far more , maybe because it was seamless from counter to kill , not counter-slow mo pause-kill

Ureh
09-15-2014, 02:41 AM
The older AC combat systems required more timing cause they had a smaller window of opportunity and different enemy types. Whereas in AC3/4, pressing the button as soon as you see a strike is a guaranteed counter. Also the old combos required a bit of rhythm to each button press.

Also in the older games you can perform a feint to lure an enemy into a counter kill. In AC1 if you blocked too long they would break your defense (so you need to dodge at the right time). You guys know the rest.

I'm really interested in knowing if that timing aspect is back in ACU. Or if it'll be just mashing that button when we do combos and if reacting instantly to enemy attacks means a guaranteed dodge/parry. I want it to be like AC1... if you press the button(s) too early or too late you'll get hit and usually lose a few bars of health if you don't know how to get out of their combo. But right now we're fairly in the dark, hopefully when Amancio said "we'll see you soon" in the heist demo that it means we'll see a combat demo before release. If they do release a combat demo I would like to see which buttons they're pressing during the fight.

STDlyMcStudpants
09-15-2014, 04:06 AM
I'm worried in general.
AC4 didnt 'feel' like an ac game to me and i fear that ACU and of course ACR will have the ac4 feel...
I cant really explain it....but it feels different and i dont like it lol

LoyalACFan
09-15-2014, 04:15 AM
Yeah, I kinda am worried. Simply because they've shown us a LOT of stealth and parkour (which is great) but by this point it feels like combat has been suspiciously absent from their demos. We've only seen tiny little snippets of it in the E3 demos; if it was really as new and challenging as they suggest I feel like they'd be wanting to show it off. I know AI can be nerfed for demos, but the fact that he could kill three guards with the same amount of ease as Connor or Edward doesn't exactly give me a fuzzy feeling.

In the long run though, I'm more interested in stealth and parkour anyway, so if combat takes a hit while other two pillars rock I'm fine with it. It's just frustrating that AC combat has NEVER been good. It doesn't even need to be the main focus of the game, it just needs to be somewhat engaging, which it never really has been IMO. It LOOKS wonderful (which I personally think is important too) but gameplay-wise that's not enough.

Namikaze_17
09-15-2014, 05:00 AM
@Loyal

I feel ya.

Hopefully the other two make up for it.

Farlander1991
09-15-2014, 06:38 AM
There was a making-of video somewhere where we were shown a fairly lengthy battle in a whitebox environment (i.e. white area and models weren't textured IIRC) and the enemies were really vicious there, so that gives me hope in regards to ACU combat.

Ureh
09-15-2014, 06:59 AM
Anyone know if the weapon a guard uses affects their behaviour? Example: a guard using a spear will be able to sweep you, whereas if the same guard were using an axe they can smash you. Cause in the e3 single player demo, the aggressor captain is using a spear. The protector captain, in the co-op demo, was using a sword. And I'm guessing they both have pistols (the aggressor captain probably had one). Could those two captains have different weapons in another scenario or will they always be using what we saw in the demo? Also it looks like aggressor peons use swords (and probably have pistols) whereas the protector peons had swords + muskets, it seems. Does this mean that the aggressor peons have some kind of advantage to balance out the long-range capabilities of the protectors?

Also in ACR, the Byzantines had almogavars and varangians. Whereas the Ottomans had agiles and janissaries. Not to mention their "grunts" also had different behaviours too. But after the Templars lose their dominance over the city, we largely don't see the unique Byzantine guards anymore! Does anyone know if this'll happen in Unity? i.e. either the aggressors or protectors might be forced out at a certain point in the game so we'll miss out on certain guard types? Maybe one faction will assimilate the other?

Fatal-Feit
09-15-2014, 07:57 AM
The Ezio Trilogy combat was the worse. I don't want Unity to be anything like them.

topeira1980
09-15-2014, 08:55 AM
im also worried about combat, especially because it started with a lot of potential in AC1 (small counter window, no counter kills, enemies counter as well, defense break, normal AND power attacks etc etc) with the only downside was that altair had a bijillion health points so it was never a challenge, but it went down hill as combat became more and more simple. in AC4 it was the worse with easy counter kills, and why would i even bother with counter-pushing or counter-disarming enemies if i can just kill them instantly?

anyways, it DOES seem like the system has been overhauled quite a bit and a lot of moves were brought back.

THIS is the video that was mentioned, from game informer, with a some good combat examples from 6:36 onward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOokFN1Nows

it looks like you can dodge or counter independantly and there are normal and power attacks and that counters no longer kill (YEAY!). it also looks like enemies attack more often and in combos... which is wonderful. i wish there was a defense break like in AC1, though....

amancio constantly talks about how stealth is important and to make it important combat MUST be hard enough so you cant defeat every enemy in sight, so i hope he's right. the biggest problem is that AC never had difficulty settings AND UBI wants the game to appeal to everyone, so they are making the game easy enough so even bad gamers can complete it. THATS the root of the problem.
i just hope that the way to make the game easier is by buying better gear, so i can avoid from doing that and keep the game challenging.

another mistake (in MY opinion) was that in AC every enemy was predictable. each enemy type had one type of defense and attack that he could do and he'd only do those. some enemies would NEVER block, some would ALWAYS block, some would ALWAYS dodge and some would NEVER. defeating each enemy required no skill. only recognizing which enemy it is and what is the sure way which never fails to kill him.
in AC1 enemies could dodge OR counter OR block OR neither. they could do normal attacks OR power attacks. you had to watch whats happening. it was a LOT more fun that way, if u ask me....

i also am afraid that combat is indeed harder and defeating more than 3 enemies is really really hard, but then they put very few guards around... so it's back to being really easy.

i also am worried about health mechanics. i've seen that MEDICINE is back, but i wonder how much health arno has and if it regenerates during combat. because if it does regen and blocking means that you can easily survive long enough to regen all health than what's the point?

UBI made TONS of mistakes with the AC combat, IMO. tons! i doubt they will fix them all... i just hope for a meaningful improvement.... the gameinformer video i posted makes me hopeful... but cautiously...

Farlander1991
09-15-2014, 09:04 AM
AC1 (small counter window, no counter kills, enemies counter as well, defense break, normal AND power attacks etc etc)

Small counter window is true really only for the Hidden Blade though. Small knife has a shorter counter window than a sword, but it's pretty hard to miss IMO.
And there are counter kills in AC1, they're just not necessarily instant, though can be. A counter attack deals damage. If it's lethal damage, it's a counter kill, if it's not, the counter ends with a punch in the gut. But somewhere in the middle of the game (as we get better weapons) most regular guards become instant-kill counterable, and then by the end IIRC only the most powerful enemies need two counter-kills, but I may be slightly wrong on this last part.

I honestly think that the counter was the biggest downside of the AC1 combat system, as it really promoted turtling. There's no downside to the counter. You can counter any direct attack, it's really easy to do with the sword. When you attack, you're at a danger of the opponent dodging, or parrying, or whatever, but there's no such thing with the counter.

Battling a Templar in AC1 in a section where counter wasn't available was one of the most intense battles in AC for me, so I really hope that ACU combat is going to be something like that.

topeira1980
09-15-2014, 09:15 AM
Small counter window is true really only for the Hidden Blade though. Small knife has a shorter counter window than a sword, but it's pretty hard to miss IMO.
And there are counter kills in AC1, they're just not necessarily instant, though can be. A counter attack deals damage. If it's lethal damage, it's a counter kill, if it's not, the counter ends with a punch in the gut. But somewhere in the middle of the game (as we get better weapons) most regular guards become instant-kill counterable, and then by the end IIRC only the most powerful enemies need two counter-kills, but I may be slightly wrong on this last part.

I honestly think that the counter was the biggest downside of the AC1 combat system, as it really promoted turtling. There's no downside to the counter. You can counter any direct attack, it's really easy to do with the sword. When you attack, you're at a danger of the opponent dodging, or parrying, or whatever, but there's no such thing with the counter.

Battling a Templar in AC1 in a section where counter wasn't available was one of the most intense battles in AC for me, so I really hope that ACU combat is going to be something like that.

i know that counters in AC1 could kill if they ended that enemy.... i dont remember killing in 1 or 2 counters but i dont think i upgraded my weapons all the way throught because i wanted the game to have SOME sort of challenge.... (though that didnt help much)...

according to the GI video i posted it looks like a counter is not like in BATMAN games - it opens the enemy for a hit. a single hit. that's a good move by UBI. it's not a counter. it's just a parry.
i wonder if there is GUARD though. guard is what i call when you hold a guard button and arno deflects all attacks, like in most action games. in AC if you held GUARD you were pretty much safe (except of the heavy attackers) and i hope that there is a more balanced version of guard (like guard doesnt block heavy attacks ot two handed weapons' attacks) or no guard at all.
when im in low health in ACU i want to be afraid!
if i defeat 4 or 5 enemies in ACU i want to feel proud! i want to feel like a bad *** and not like the game is constantly giving me a break and winning for me.

Farlander1991
09-15-2014, 09:21 AM
i dont remember killing in 1 or 2 counters but i dont think i upgraded my weapons all the way throught

You don't have a choice in that in AC1 though :p Unless you keep playing sequences in the beginning, as Al Mualim gives you new and better weapons as you progress through the game.

Sushiglutton
09-15-2014, 10:45 AM
The way Alex talks about combat I get the feeling his goal has been to take it out of the equation more or less. The natural instinct when you are spotted by multiple enemies should be to drop a smokebomb and run for safety and start over with stealth. That has been his goal. In that view an enjoyable combat is not all that important. It just needs to be hard to encourage escape/stealth. That said Alex also says combat will still be a viable option, so it's a bit unclear to me how these things are balanced.

Co-op has ofc forced them to rebuild combat. Slow-mo doesn't really work in co-op because that would put players out of synch. So slow-mo counter from AC3 had to go. Also the double kills with their really long animations are probably not feasible either, because what happens if the second player is blocking some of the moves? Basically co-op promotes shorter, more direct moves. Now in my view this is great as it means more player control and fast paced action!

My guess is also that they have wanted to keep combat relatively simple, because with four players the possible states increases expnentially. So I think the block, dodge, parry they talk about is basically it (+ ranged attacks). Choose the right move and make sure to keeps enemies busy so they can't gang up on you (this will promote cooperation as players together can keep more enemies busy ofc). The difficulty will not come from complexity, but from stricter time windows and damage parameters.


Overall I think it will be okeyish, but not great compared to other more melee focused games. I feel like their will be a lack of depth and variety in terms of your strategy. My guess is that it will be fairly clear what you need to do, but that it will be more difficult to execute.


Curious to see how it turns out :)!

Farlander1991
09-15-2014, 11:02 AM
That said Alex also says combat will still be a viable option, so it's a bit unclear to me how these things are balanced.

Here's an Arkham example for you, imagine that you have to get a, let's say, +30 combo bar with shielded enemies, guns, and possibly knife-weilding ones too. ;) Or, since you've played Arkham more than I have, adjust the numbers at enemy types until it feels like it's pretty tricky. Something that's possible with practice and that you don't need to become an insane master for, but still challenging and that most people won't really do. This is how combat is supposed to fit in, I think.

Sushiglutton
09-15-2014, 11:12 AM
Here's an Arkham example for you, imagine that you have to get a, let's say, +30 combo bar with shielded enemies, guns, and possibly knife-weilding ones too. ;) Or, since you've played Arkham more than I have, adjust the numbers at enemy types until it feels like it's pretty tricky. Something that's possible with practice and that you don't need to become an insane master for, but still challenging and that most people won't really do. This is how combat is supposed to fit in, I think.


Maybe. But they also claim that enemies will pull out guns and shoot you if there are more than three. So it does seem like some scenarios may actually be impossible. I mean there's no way you can keep ten enemies occupied (at least I wouldn't think so). If so combat would be viable in some scenarios, but not others (just like in Arkham :p where multiple armed enemies are impossible to fight)

Kakuzu745
09-15-2014, 04:09 PM
I only hope it gets closer to AC1 combat...for me it was the only good combat system in the game. The only one that was fun and challenging at the same time.

topeira1980
09-15-2014, 05:01 PM
The way Alex talks about combat I get the feeling his goal has been to take it out of the equation more or less. The natural instinct when you are spotted by multiple enemies should be to drop a smokebomb and run for safety and start over with stealth. That has been his goal. In that view an enjoyable combat is not all that important. It just needs to be hard to encourage escape/stealth. That said Alex also says combat will still be a viable option, so it's a bit unclear to me how these things are balanced.

Co-op has ofc forced them to rebuild combat. Slow-mo doesn't really work in co-op because that would put players out of synch. So slow-mo counter from AC3 had to go. Also the double kills with their really long animations are probably not feasible either, because what happens if the second player is blocking some of the moves? Basically co-op promotes shorter, more direct moves. Now in my view this is great as it means more player control and fast paced action!

My guess is also that they have wanted to keep combat relatively simple, because with four players the possible states increases expnentially. So I think the block, dodge, parry they talk about is basically it (+ ranged attacks). Choose the right move and make sure to keeps enemies busy so they can't gang up on you (this will promote cooperation as players together can keep more enemies busy ofc). The difficulty will not come from complexity, but from stricter time windows and damage parameters.


Overall I think it will be okeyish, but not great compared to other more melee focused games. I feel like their will be a lack of depth and variety in terms of your strategy. My guess is that it will be fairly clear what you need to do, but that it will be more difficult to execute.


Curious to see how it turns out :)!

great post, mate.

i dont think that a complex combat system (like batman or DMC etc) is needed. look at Dark souls - the core of the combat is preatty simple - you got light and heavy attacks, block and roll (and parry if you got the shield and balls). that was the core essence of it. and it worked because even though the player doesnt have a LOT of tools he has enough and these tools take skills to use properly and i think that it's all needed here.
even a simple system like -
block VS light attacks.
heavy attacks (or maybe defense breaks if they are in. i've seen a shove in the GI video) VS block.
parry needs to be well timed.
dodge\roll VS any attack but doesnt allow you to turn a roll into an offence.

that's all that is needed for the core combat to be fun, and if enemies are fast enough and aggressive enough (and they are , from the vids we've seen) it should be moderately hard to fight them.

have you guys played DISHONORED? that combat system, if not using any magic other than blink, is really simple - you can attack, block, time block, jump (it's the equivalent of dodge) and magic\weapon. it was really simple but fighting more than 1 or 2 enemies usually meant you HAD to use weapons (disposable ammo) or other complex tactics and exploits to not lose any health or even die. combat was simple but hard and it was FUN!! and the way STEALTH works in DISHONORED is EXACTLY how i think it should work in ACU - you want to , at least, dwindle the enemy numbers and only engage in combat as a last resort or when there isnt too much of resistance. if you get into combat not under your own terms than you probably get involved with 3 or more guards and there is a good chance of you dying (or wasting precious health elixirs) so you have to disappear.
the balance between combat and stealth in DISHONORED is perfect example on how combat and stealth should work in ACU.

anyone else played DISHONORED and can share his thoughts?



...in fact the balance between combat and stealth works well in the harder difficulties in Farcry 2\3 and splinter cell too. UBI CAN make a good balance of those but for that to work they need combat to be challenging and in FC2\3 and splinter cell there are difficulty settings. if there weren't any diff settings and the only settings there was was EASY (like in AC) than you wouldnt need stealth. again - that's the core of the problem - no difficulty settings in AC.

Fatal-Feit
09-15-2014, 05:09 PM
have you guys played DISHONORED? that combat system, if not using any magic other than blink, is really simple - you can attack, block, time block, jump (it's the equivalent of dodge) and magic\weapon. it was really simple but fighting more than 1 or 2 enemies usually meant you HAD to use weapons (disposable ammo) or other complex tactics and exploits to not lose any health or even die. combat was simple but hard and it was FUN!! and the way STEALTH works in DISHONORED is EXACTLY how i think it should work in ACU - you want to , at least, dwindle the enemy numbers and only engage in combat as a last result or when there isnt too much of resistance. if you get into combat not under your own terms than you probably get involved with 3 or more guards and there is a good chance of you dying (or wasting precious health elixirs) so you have to disappear.
the balance between combat and stealth in DISHONORED is perfect example on how combat and stealth should work in ACU.

Well said. I agree with every word.

---------------------

Anyway, AC:U's most likely simplified combat will hopefully give players more grounded controls. And what I mean by that, is being able to dodge roll by pushing a dodge roll button, not a command that varies depending on the enemy.

Also, I wonder how they will go about with defending yourself against firearms.

andreycvetov
09-15-2014, 06:09 PM
Well said. I agree with every word.

---------------------

Anyway, AC:U's most likely simplified combat will hopefully give players more grounded controls. And what I mean by that, is being able to dodge roll by pushing a dodge roll button, not a command that varies depending on the enemy.

Also, I wonder how they will go about with defending yourself against firearms.

I am really curious too ,hope its not the same animation and tactic again .Will they sacriface the fluidity of the combat in order to make it harder ?

Fatal-Feit
09-15-2014, 06:27 PM
I am really curious too ,hope its not the same animation and tactic again .Will they sacriface the fluidity of the combat in order to make it harder ?

They had better not brush off a solution and say ''that's part of the difficulty''.

I never had a problem with using a meatshield in the previous titles, but I can see how it might leave Arno vulnerable, especially with the new AIs that are supposedly more aggressive.

killzab
09-15-2014, 07:59 PM
Well said. I agree with every word.

---------------------

Anyway, AC:U's most likely simplified combat will hopefully give players more grounded controls. And what I mean by that, is being able to dodge roll by pushing a dodge roll button, not a command that varies depending on the enemy.

Also, I wonder how they will go about with defending yourself against firearms.


Indeed, Dishonored's gameplay is incredible and its combat system is perfect to my eyes. I think enemies' behaviour and the way damage is dealt are very realistic. If you don't play your cards well, combats can get long and almost impossible to win but you can also dispose of enemies in one well placed shot. And I like the fact that no matter who you're facing, blinking unexpectedly in front of their face is lethal, even to Daud. They don't have ******** superhuman reflexes. And that's amazing.

Sometimes, I do a quicksave before an interesting fighting situation and just replay it over and over, trying different strategies. It's that good.

topeira1980
09-15-2014, 10:05 PM
Indeed, Dishonored's gameplay is incredible and its combat system is perfect to my eyes. I think enemies' behaviour and the way damage is dealt are very realistic. If you don't play your cards well, combats can get long and almost impossible to win but you can also dispose of enemies in one well placed shot. And I like the fact that no matter who you're facing, blinking unexpectedly in front of their face is lethal, even to Daud. They don't have ******** superhuman reflexes. And that's amazing.

Sometimes, I do a quicksave before an interesting fighting situation and just replay it over and over, trying different strategies. It's that good.

hehehe. you are like me :) i also save before interesting battles. if i survive them but i wasted to much health or ammo\gear than i reload. if the combat was a lot of fun or i did well - i continue.
i usually like fighting with only my sword and blink. i find it exciting to manage killing 3 or 4 enemies by countering, jumping over them and blinking around. it's the most essential and basic moves of your character and it's enough to make it fun. if ACU can allow you to have fun with the basics than it's a win!

same with batman arkham games - i can have a lot of fun with just counter, attack, dodge and some finishers. nothing more. it's the basics of combat and they are fun enough on their own, without even fiddling with the gadgets, simply because the basics of combat in batman are hard enough to implement well, enough to keep you on your toes, which makes combat satisfying.

it's funny how in the gameinformer vid i posted UBI is proud of not doing combat like everyone else.... so they made combat different by making it nonsensical. where defense is also the best offence and the entire system is an unbalanced shallow POS. in such cases, UBI, i suggest you start copying from others.
gladly i think the ARE copying this time around and taking the better lessons from Batman arkham since their systems seem to get more alike.

Ureh
09-15-2014, 10:16 PM
I'm getting Dishonored real real soon. So I'll be able to experience and understand what you folks are talking about.

m4r-k7
09-15-2014, 10:29 PM
I am so pissed off that I was away when Dishonored was free on Xbox Live so I couldn't download it.

I played it on my old PC and it was incredible, but I really wanted to replay it on my 360...damn!

topeira1980
09-15-2014, 10:34 PM
I'm getting Dishonored real real soon. So I'll be able to experience and understand what you folks are talking about.
get the DLCs too! i hated the challenges DLC (unlike the batman challenges DLCs that were fun) but the two missions expansions (where i played as Daud) were awesome!!

killzab
09-16-2014, 07:24 AM
Dishonored really is incredible and a source of inspiration

Kakuzu745
09-16-2014, 06:12 PM
Dishonored is a fantastic game...anyone who does not have it should buy it.

SlyTrooper
09-16-2014, 09:27 PM
Agreed. It's my favourite game... so far.

m4r-k7
09-16-2014, 09:48 PM
Dishonored was a truly special game. Waiting on the next-gen sequel :)

GoldenBoy9999
09-16-2014, 11:30 PM
I got detected too much in Dishonored. I'm doing another playthrough and I'm going to try to use powers like blink more. I never thought to use it in combat.