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RinoTheBouncer
09-09-2014, 12:25 AM
This has been on my mind since PS1 days in games like Final Fantasy or Silent Hill and now even in ACIV.

You are asked to finish the game multiple times, or asked to finish the game after beating the final boss who is REALLY hard, replay it again and then level up, gather items, open a side mission, kill a monster who is a trillion times harder than the final boss to unlock a weapon that can kill enemies with one or two hits. WHATíS THE POINT?!

For example in Final Fantasy? you need to do a hell lot of buffing to your characters to be able to beat the final boss, so you already have to be so powerful that by the time youíre ready for the final boss, every other monster will be a piece of cake to you, but before the final boss, youíre asked to kill a monster whoís a lot more difficult, letís say the final bossí HP is 500,000, this new side mission monster has 4,000,000 points of HP, so you will need to level up like crazy to beat it and after that, you get a weapon that makes you beat each new enemy with one hit or so. But whatís the point? Iíve leveled up enough to kill with one hit with my own normal weapons already.

In ACIV, for example, we have to upgrade our ship to progress through the story as some missions cannot be beaten if youíre ship is not strong enough, and by the time youíre near the end, youíre pretty strong to practically destroy any other ship, except for the Legendary Ships. Those you need a complete level up as well as skill and agility to beat them and once you do, you do beat all of them, you get an advanced ram. But whatís the point of it? I donít need it anymore. If I can beat the legendary ships, then what makes any other ship any special? I can just destroy them with the same speed as I can with the advanced ram.

So my point is, why canít they just give these unlockables when I actually do need them, or perhaps in different difficulty modes or as DLC? Iím not looking for an easy gameplay but Iím just saying that if youíre to give me some extras for the game, make sure theyíre useful. Same goes for outfits. If youíre gonna give me ship sails as DLC, make sure you do it early cause months from the release, I will have most likely finished the game 100% and I wonít just download them to roam around for 10 minutes wearing the new Sails and then turn off my console.

I know that many people donít get the game on release day, but Iím just saying that unlockables with most games are unlocked after itís already too late to be too excited about them.

Discuss...

JustPlainQuirky
09-09-2014, 12:27 AM
Reminds me of Kingdom Hearts 3D where you get the Ultima Blade AFTER you beat the hardest boss in the game.

RinoTheBouncer
09-09-2014, 12:28 AM
Reminds me of Kingdom Hearts 3D where you get the Ultima Blade AFTER you beat the hardest boss in the game.

Yup, same for all Final Fantasy games, Silent Hill, Resident Evil (most of the time) and others.

Jexx21
09-09-2014, 12:33 AM
I beat AC4 without doing any missions or anything to get money specifically to upgrade the ship.

I went through the story straight, and I did fine. This issue is nonexistent.

JustPlainQuirky
09-09-2014, 12:34 AM
I kinda agree with jexx tho.

I didn't upgrade until the final missions and even then I was still getting rekt.

Upgrading at your own pace seems to work well for me.

RinoTheBouncer
09-09-2014, 12:36 AM
I beat AC4 without doing any missions or anything to get money specifically to upgrade the ship.

I went through the story straight, and I did fine. This issue is nonexistent.

The point wasn’t that you need to upgrade. The point is that once you get the extra unlockable which requires you to level up to beat the Legendary Ships, they will be no need for it because the hardest battles of the game had already been won, whether you upgraded or not.

Jexx21
09-09-2014, 12:39 AM
that's why games give you a new game +

assassin's creed hasn't done that yet but they should

GoldenBoy9999
09-09-2014, 12:57 AM
The point wasn’t that you need to upgrade. The point is that once you get the extra unlockable which requires you to level up to beat the Legendary Ships, they will be no need for it because the hardest battles of the game had already been won, whether you upgraded or not.

Well if you have the elite ram then when you encounter a man of war then you can dispatch it a little quicker as a reward for beating the legendary ships. It might not help things much but it's gotta help a little.

guardian_titan
09-09-2014, 01:02 AM
This irritates me a bit, too. You get to the end and get the ultimate weapon or whatever and you go, "what's next?" New Game+ had its fun back when I was younger and had time to sink, but nowadays, I have little interest in replaying something because the story's the same as the last time. The only thing that's different is now I can go faster and maybe buy more of the overpowered items than what I could the first time. Yay? Even branching stories don't hold the same allure they did a few years ago. Finish the game and hit Youtube for the other branches. Yay ...

What they should do is have the ultimate items in games be unlocked via a long quest chain interwoven throughout the game. Maybe have it start in some obscure location you won't normally visit during the course of the game, but if you keep up with the quest as the story advances, you'll get the ultimate weapon around the time of the finale (such as the final sequence or the one before it in an AC game). The quest chain could then go into areas the game normally wouldn't have you go to and are just there for exploration. With the million islands you could visit in AC4 that really had nothing, Ubisoft could have put items on it related to crafting the ultimate naval ram (the one you get from defeating the legendary ships). After collecting like 100-200 pieces that require you to go across the map and underwater and finding the plans on some obscure body in some remote corner of the map, you can then craft the ram. Since some areas don't unlock until a certain point of the story, it would gate how quickly you can craft the ram. They could have done something similar in AC3 having you go to corners of the Frontier, Boston, New York, Davenport, and even some of the naval quest areas for the Peg Leg missions where you wouldn't normally go to eventually craft an ultimate weapon. Same's true of the other games. Every game, unless it's a corridor, has areas that you don't normally visit if you don't go exploring. Why not use them?

I guess game designers always hoped players would continue playing after beating the game or go on to replay, but it often gets boring seeing the same story over and over again with the only difference you being more powerful each time. I wouldn't be surprised to find most gamers play a game once and throw it on the shelf or trade it in to get something else. The number that replay a game are likely in the minority these days.

For New Game+, it would be nice if it unlocked more than just what you obtained in the last game just so the second game isn't just a repeat of the first but faster. An area you couldn't access before with new quests? A quest chain not available before that takes you through the game and back to areas you would have skipped in a second playthrough? More expensive items to buy from shops? New outfits/weapons?

CDFinnigan
09-09-2014, 06:08 AM
Vagrant Story on the PS1 is the only example of a New Game+ done right. Not only were several new areas opened that you couldn't access on the first playthrough, there were certain types of armor/weapons, spell levels, enemies, etc. that were also only on a second or higher playthrough. And most of the enemies, particularly the bosses, were a pain in the ***. Asura (I think that was the name) being a metric ton of suckage.

Kakuzu745
09-12-2014, 09:15 PM
Agree...those were my exact thoughts on the advanced ram. My last thing to do in AC4 was killing the Impoluto...I got the advanced ram and then what? Go and destroy ships for fun? I guess that would be the only point...

Bastiaen
09-12-2014, 09:48 PM
You're absolutely right Rino. It's a broken reward loop, because it doesn't loop. It's unidirectional. You play, improve, play more, improve more, beat the ultimate challenge and get the ultimate reward, which is then useless, because the activities you use those rewards for no longer reward you with external rewards, only intrinsic ones. To be fair, video game rewards are really only ever sensory and intrinsic, but a useless weapon is still useless.

I think that it's much better to reward the hard working players who take time to complete difficult side contact with important narrative revelations, rather than a tool that is no longer useful.

Bastiaen
09-12-2014, 09:55 PM
Vagrant Story on the PS1 is the only example of a New Game+ done right. Not only were several new areas opened that you couldn't access on the first playthrough, there were certain types of armor/weapons, spell levels, enemies, etc. that were also only on a second or higher playthrough. And most of the enemies, particularly the bosses, were a pain in the ***. Asura (I think that was the name) being a metric ton of suckage.

I really like Batman Arkham City/Origins new game plus. You keep all your upgrades/ collectibles, but the game itself is much harder.
For a real challenge, try I Am the Night mode on Batman Arkham Origins.

RinoTheBouncer
09-13-2014, 01:50 PM
Well if you have the elite ram then when you encounter a man of war then you can dispatch it a little quicker as a reward for beating the legendary ships. It might not help things much but it's gotta help a little.

It’s true. You could take down a Man-o-War easily with it, but I assume that by that time, you can already take it down easily, that if you even need to do that. I defeated the Legendary ships and got the 100% completion, so it was the last thing to do for me in the whole game. That’s probably why I feel it’s so useless.


This irritates me a bit, too. You get to the end and get the ultimate weapon or whatever and you go, "what's next?" New Game+ had its fun back when I was younger and had time to sink, but nowadays, I have little interest in replaying something because the story's the same as the last time. The only thing that's different is now I can go faster and maybe buy more of the overpowered items than what I could the first time. Yay? Even branching stories don't hold the same allure they did a few years ago. Finish the game and hit Youtube for the other branches. Yay ...

What they should do is have the ultimate items in games be unlocked via a long quest chain interwoven throughout the game. Maybe have it start in some obscure location you won't normally visit during the course of the game, but if you keep up with the quest as the story advances, you'll get the ultimate weapon around the time of the finale (such as the final sequence or the one before it in an AC game). The quest chain could then go into areas the game normally wouldn't have you go to and are just there for exploration. With the million islands you could visit in AC4 that really had nothing, Ubisoft could have put items on it related to crafting the ultimate naval ram (the one you get from defeating the legendary ships). After collecting like 100-200 pieces that require you to go across the map and underwater and finding the plans on some obscure body in some remote corner of the map, you can then craft the ram. Since some areas don't unlock until a certain point of the story, it would gate how quickly you can craft the ram. They could have done something similar in AC3 having you go to corners of the Frontier, Boston, New York, Davenport, and even some of the naval quest areas for the Peg Leg missions where you wouldn't normally go to eventually craft an ultimate weapon. Same's true of the other games. Every game, unless it's a corridor, has areas that you don't normally visit if you don't go exploring. Why not use them?

I guess game designers always hoped players would continue playing after beating the game or go on to replay, but it often gets boring seeing the same story over and over again with the only difference you being more powerful each time. I wouldn't be surprised to find most gamers play a game once and throw it on the shelf or trade it in to get something else. The number that replay a game are likely in the minority these days.

For New Game+, it would be nice if it unlocked more than just what you obtained in the last game just so the second game isn't just a repeat of the first but faster. An area you couldn't access before with new quests? A quest chain not available before that takes you through the game and back to areas you would have skipped in a second playthrough? More expensive items to buy from shops? New outfits/weapons?

I absolutely agree. But at least with a New Game+ or playing as the secondary character/alternate routes would at least give you some reason to replay and some benefit of using the powerful weapons. There are certain games where you have to unlock multiple endings or even visit previously inaccessible locations, so in that case, an ultimate weapon would definitely make playing a game that you’ve seen before more enjoyable since it won’t be as long and difficult as the first time.

But with AC, there’s no New Game+ nor alternate endings nor even story revelations if you replay or beat the ultimate boss fight. So it makes every ultimate weapon or armor you unlock so useless. I guess they really should work on giving a special cutscene, revelation or a chance to replay with that new ability you unlocked or in exchange for collecting everything or beating the ultimate boss.


Vagrant Story on the PS1 is the only example of a New Game+ done right. Not only were several new areas opened that you couldn't access on the first playthrough, there were certain types of armor/weapons, spell levels, enemies, etc. that were also only on a second or higher playthrough. And most of the enemies, particularly the bosses, were a pain in the ***. Asura (I think that was the name) being a metric ton of suckage.

EXACTLY! even though I personally haven’t played Vagrant Story, but the way you describe it, it’s a perfect way of giving players a reason to replay the game and use whatever’s been unlocked by the end of the game to make the next play through more enjoyable. Another example is the classic Resident Evil and Silent Hill games; with each new play through, we get to unlock an awesome new weapon or outfit or any equipment that makes you wanna experience the whole thing again and even unlock more stuff with the next completion, including alternate endings for Silent Hill, instead of just giving me the whoa-so-awesome weapon in an open-world game without a new game + option, when I don’t need it anymore.


Agree...those were my exact thoughts on the advanced ram. My last thing to do in AC4 was killing the Impoluto...I got the advanced ram and then what? Go and destroy ships for fun? I guess that would be the only point...

Same here! The Legendary Ships were my last step to 100% completion.


You're absolutely right Rino. It's a broken reward loop, because it doesn't loop. It's unidirectional. You play, improve, play more, improve more, beat the ultimate challenge and get the ultimate reward, which is then useless, because the activities you use those rewards for no longer reward you with external rewards, only intrinsic ones. To be fair, video game rewards are really only ever sensory and intrinsic, but a useless weapon is still useless.

I think that it's much better to reward the hard working players who take time to complete difficult side contact with important narrative revelations, rather than a tool that is no longer useful.

Very well said. Story enriching unlockables are much better than useless extra weapons that you can’t even replay the main game with. I don’t wanna be invincible using a cheat that the game gives me and locks me out of saving my data and unlocking trophies. I wanna be able to finish the game and replay with the new weapon I got, or just give me something of more value and use to me.