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Biloxi72
06-04-2004, 09:48 AM
Should it be able to out dive most German aircraft due to its heavier weight and i think more powerful engines. I know the lightning is a big plane, but she is aerodynamically clean, thus also helping her dive faster then say the 109's which are not supposed to be that clean?
I would think she should be able to out dive most 109 planes (pulling out is different story) and then be able to use that speed to out zoom the 109 for a short distance?
Please dont start a flame war, just looking for some info either supporting this thought or showing me why the 109's and 190s can stay with it in a dive and such

thannks

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

Biloxi72
06-04-2004, 09:48 AM
Should it be able to out dive most German aircraft due to its heavier weight and i think more powerful engines. I know the lightning is a big plane, but she is aerodynamically clean, thus also helping her dive faster then say the 109's which are not supposed to be that clean?
I would think she should be able to out dive most 109 planes (pulling out is different story) and then be able to use that speed to out zoom the 109 for a short distance?
Please dont start a flame war, just looking for some info either supporting this thought or showing me why the 109's and 190s can stay with it in a dive and such

thannks

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 10:15 AM
Sorry mate..but both the 109 and fw190 should have no trouble catching the p38 in a dive but a p38 with dive brakes probably can dive slower and make the axis planes overshoot.

The p38 is slower bcause it has 3 fuselages and 2 big props causing drag and it also probably would brake up in the highspeed dives the fw190 and the 109 can do.

BlitzPig_DDT
06-04-2004, 10:19 AM
So who's got the Cd0, flat plate area, and power loading for each of these? (BTW - which 109s are you talking about?)

On a side note, AEP's dive physics are hosed. Have been since IL2. Don't expect realistic dive accelerations from any of the planes in the game.

Also, I would not try to out dive anything if I were in a P-38, well, not steep dive at least. Maybe a shallow dive for extra speed.... Compressibility is a biatch. lol

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

RocketDog
06-04-2004, 10:23 AM
Yep - as DDT says, FB's physics just doesn't do dives and all aircraft accelerate in dives at the same rate.

I realised this the first time I tried to dive away from a Bf 110 in a P-47 and it sat glued to my tail.

Regards,

RocketDog.

horseback
06-04-2004, 10:28 AM
Actually, P-38s accellerated much faster in a dive than even the P-47; the problem was that it reached compressability at a lower speed than other fighters, and so its safe maximum diving speed was much lower, and dive angle had to be much more shallow. Late J and early L models had dive brakes added, allowing not a higher dive speed, but a steeper dive angle, and an easier recovery.

If the max dive speed was exceeded and compressability was reached, the controls were locked up and the nose tended to tuck under, almost always resulting in a catastrophic structural failure (that's engineerspeak for "The damn thing just tears itself apart.").

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RocketDog:
Yep - as DDT says, FB's physics just doesn't do dives and all aircraft accelerate in dives at the same rate.

I realised this the first time I tried to dive away from a Bf 110 in a P-47 and it sat glued to my tail.

Regards,

RocketDog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



If that was true I wouldnt be able to out dive any plane in fb and I just seem to do it all the time.
It is also difficult to out dive a plane going at same speed or close to that, meaning that the separation will go slowly.

Biloxi72
06-04-2004, 10:37 AM
S!
ok guys thanks for the info, kind of what i expected (in terms of drag and such) for my poor p38. I guess not much chance for me if a 109 or 190 get latched onto me huh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

regards

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 10:56 AM
he he ...dont decide the outcome just yet mate. The p38 is absolutely not a bad plane and it too has it goodies, and battles are never predetermined.

BlitzPig_DDT
06-04-2004, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
he he ...dont decide the outcome just yet mate. The p38 is absolutely not a bad plane and it too has it goodies, and battles are never predetermined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...but it's also got a yoke. (gack!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Things have changed a bit, and some planes do accelerate faster than others as well, but - it's largely based on thrust as much as anything else.

That's why the Spit has such a low terminal dive speed - the real thing accelerated poorly, but it had a high crit mach. AEP can't do that - so they give it a low terminal speed and call it close enough for gov't work.

(other VNEs are hosed too - the YP-80, when last I checked, was within 10kph of the Go-229. All that extra drag in terms of parasitic, and interference, would most certainly have to give it more problems - either it was too good, or the 229 too poor. That was in 2.0 though - haven't looked at it in 2.1)

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

McTriggerhappy
06-04-2004, 11:23 AM
yeah, and the p38 sucks too (old school plane

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 11:48 AM
This is worth looking at!!Here is some interesting p38 links:
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html

And a quote from page 2:

"Sometime in the development of the P-38, the design engineers must have realized that P-38's didn't have great roll capability. When Tony Levier, Lockheed test pilot, visited the 55th FG, he heard a common thread of complaints from the pilots. Cold cockpit, poor "flick" roll rate, and inability to dive after the Bf-109's and FW-190's from high altitude".

---------------------------------------------------------------

"The P-38J25-LO and P-38L's were terrific. Roll Rate? Ha! Nothing would roll faster. The dive recovery flaps ameliorated the "compressibility" (Mach limitation) of earlier Lightnings. An added benefit of the dive recovery flaps was their ability to pitch the nose 10-20 degrees "up" momentarily when trying to out turn the Luftwaffe's best, even when using the flap combat position on the selector. Of course the nose "pitch-up" resulted in increased aerodynamic drag, and must be used cautiously. High speed is generally preferred over low speed in combat situations. Properly flown, the Fowler flaps of the P-38 allowed very tight turning radius."

Arthur Heiden observed first-hand how tight a well flown P-38 could turn.

"I remember an amusing incident, Apr '44. We had run into a real mess and the Luftwafe was bouncing everybody. My flight had just been bounced, did the break, and the Luftwaffe kept on going. While I was on guard, I saw this other flight get bounced. While the rest of that flight did a halfhearted break, old tail-end Charlie's P-38 emitted a cloud of exhaust smoke (thought he had been hit), saw his nose come up and wrap up his turn. Before I could think, old #4 was in the lead of that flight. Impressed the hell out of me. Turned out to have been Fiebelkorn -- he was off to a good start."


linkpage2:
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-2.html



all links:
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 12:20 PM
2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-2.html


-----------------------------------------------
Makes U think!! he he

Biloxi72
06-04-2004, 12:26 PM
S!
great stuff OB thanks and ill just keep plugging away at it. Maybe things will be better for it in the PF release.

thanks again.

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace