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BloodHerritage
09-08-2014, 01:44 AM
This thing is getting on my nerves. I just knew that in AC Initiates they had info about desmond blood sample being sneaked out of Abesergo in preparation for AC Unity.

Unless they clearly say that in the game i'll be so upset cause i will have missed information cause i just don't care about a half arsed page that ubisoft did only so that they could reduce modern days time in the games.

Please guys, stop using AC Initiates so ubisoft is forced to stop using anything that isn't GAMES to tell us the story going on in the games.

I could understand the comics about Daniel Cross. But constantly give information that is needed to mantain the games coherent in a website is just too much.

JustPlainQuirky
09-08-2014, 01:45 AM
Well, this is the most straight forward thread I've read in a while.

Not to say I don't agree with you.

Though people are free to use it if they genuinely enjoy it.

cawatrooper
09-08-2014, 01:56 AM
Yeah, the line between supplemental material and major plot points isn't all that fine. It's fine if Ubisoft wants to reference stuff in Initiates that adds to the whole experience, but it completely ruins the experience if the material is necessary to understanding the game. It reminds me of when the DLC for Revelations was necessary to understanding the Lucy twist.

JustPlainQuirky
09-08-2014, 02:00 AM
it completely ruins the experience if the material is necessary to understanding the game.

http://www.boredwrestlingfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/4883191+_3986780f434f11a5ea0dc94a555b705c.jpg

ajl992008
09-08-2014, 02:05 AM
I've not used it and I can't say it's really affected my understanding of the games so far but I want the modern day to be a part of game not a separate entity, it would be cool if maybe as a compromise they have an "initiates hub" exclusively on the game with a database for extra info (so a more detailed version of or database in black flag) with the really important points being in the main plot, so it's no longer a website but actually part of the game and can still have regular updates.

Fatal-Feit
09-08-2014, 02:12 AM
Initiates are for the hardcore modern day fans. If you're any bit intrigued by Desmond's story, Initiates was made for you.

JustPlainQuirky
09-08-2014, 02:26 AM
Initiates are for the hardcore modern day fans. If you're any bit intrigued by Desmond's story, Initiates was made for you.

Sure, if you like incoherent ambiguous drabble.

BloodHerritage
09-08-2014, 02:32 AM
Initiates are for the hardcore modern day fans. If you're any bit intrigued by Desmond's story, Initiates was made for you.

It's not desmond's story. It's modern days. I don't want the games' modern days to be like ac4 from now on, i mean, it barely moved foward. If Ac Unity is just like Ac4 (i mean modern days) i'll start to question myself whereas to buy the assassin's creed games or not depending on the settings.

I don't get it, why can't they just keeping the modern days like in Ac1->Ac3? I mean, i doubt that they would lose any sales cause some players didn't care about 10% of it's story. But they will most probably lose sales if they drop the modern days or mantain them as slow progressing as in Ac4 BF

Fatal-Feit
09-08-2014, 02:32 AM
Sure, if you like incoherent ambiguous drabble.

But that's what modern day have always been. =P


It's not desmond's story. It's modern days. I don't want the games' modern days to be like ac4 from now on, i mean, it barely moved foward. If Ac Unity is just like Ac4 (i mean modern days) i'll start to question myself whereas to buy the assassin's creed games or not depending on the settings.

The meat and bone of the franchise are in the ancestor's story, not the other 10% of the game. As long as it's good, I'm down for whatever modern day they propose.

That said, modern day isn't suppose to move forward. There is no winner for Assassins vs Templars. You can't kill philosophy. Someone will always take up the mantle. Anyway, AC:IV had more content and fan-service to strive on than the previous games. It also brought back the mysterious and ominous feeling that was lost in favor of suspense and drama after AC:1.


I don't get it, why can't they just keeping the modern days like in Ac1->Ac3? I mean, i doubt that they would lose any sales cause some players didn't care about 10% of it's story. But they will most probably lose sales if they drop the modern days or mantain them as slow progressing as in Ac4 BF

Because it was incoherent, sloppy, a mess. Each game is designed and written by a different team of developer and writer. They have to continuously meet and up and talk about what their plans for each installment will be. Sometimes they have to alter it all together. How can we prolong Desmond's story? What will the side cast do? How will Lucy be a traitor? Was this indie first-person platformer a good idea? Can Desmond not be equipped with a gun when he infiltrates Abstergo? Who is Danial Cross again?

Darby should explain the stress from the Desmond Saga somewhere in the middle or end of the podcast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkHHHxEcDJ8
(sorry, I can't link it right now)

guardian_titan
09-08-2014, 02:33 AM
Ubisoft isn't the only one that does it. Try playing World of Warcraft. There are many spots in the game, particularly just prior to expansions, where you're required to read the accompanying books or you'll be left scratching your head on what happened. Bioware does it with the Dragon Age series, too, although Bioware's usually better about explaining who a person is without requiring you to go pick up a book/comic. The Marvel and DC movies started off being self contained, but now they're getting so intermixed you're required to watch them all in order. Seems DC's going to require you read the comics to understand Batman vs Superman, too, with their million cameos. But hey, that's a business seeking money for you. They see money, not whether or not the fan base will be willing to actually pick up the story in all of the available medias. I imagine many customers are lost once stories start to go cross media and require each other to keep up with the story.

Personally, I think that games should be self contained. It should tell an entire story from start to finish and not leave loose ends (unless the story spans multiple games, but all threads should be tied up by the end). Books (or comics) should only serve to expand upon something but not be required. With AC3, Forsaken was not needed to understand the game but reading Forsaken was a nice expansion. For AC4, you're almost required to read not only the tie-in novel but also Forsaken. AC4 leaves you scratching your head on who Caroline was, what Edward's relationship was to Jenny, and his history prior to and after the game. You're stuck inferring a lot. Oh, the chick Edward's in bed with in flashbacks must be his wife. Who's the kid? Guess he must of had a daughter. Guess Edward wasn't faithful to his wife given he chats about STIs (or STDs as they were called for the longest time) with Roberts. If you wanted to know how Edward died, you had to read Forsaken. If you wanted to know more about the boy in the opera scene at the end, you had to not only play AC3 but also read Forsaken. Never should a novel/comic be required to understand something. Ubisoft has the advantage of the Animus database within the game to tie up loose ends but often often they don't. They should have shown a picture of child Haytham AND adult Haytham in the same entry to say, "Hey, we're the same person!" and put in a bit of a blip regarding AC3 but yet there's hardly anything there. Instead, they hope you'll read the novel, or, in Daniel Cross's case, read the comic. While I can understand it from a marketing point of view (hey, money!), it's a terrible way to put in a carrot on a stick. It's more like they give us a carrot and then hit us with a cattle prod afterward forcing us to go after the carrot or we get lost.

I can't help but dread ACU. Is the novel going to be required to really understand Arno and Elise? Shay won't have a novel so will his story be fully understood? Aveline's left a lot to be desired.

JustPlainQuirky
09-08-2014, 02:34 AM
But that's what modern day have always been. =P

Good point. :rolleyes:

HDinHB
09-08-2014, 02:48 AM
I have been boycotting Initiates since June and will continue to boycott it until they launch it again.

OP, can I ask what inspired to launch this thread today, when Initiates has been down for 10 weeks? It is certainly your right, but it seems strange to get worked up over a website that has been (at least temporarily) defunct for 2 1/2 months. (There is another thread dealing with Initiates unlocking in=game content).

In the meantime, let me assure you, i'm not aware that Initiates has ever provided " information that is needed to mantain the games coherent." In fact, I would be hard pressed to provide any solid evidence of coherence of any kind. That being said, if they did reveal critical plots points on Initiates, wouldn't it be preferable that the information be available in a freely-accessible website rather than a paid DLC (or comic or book or card game or ...) ?

If I was the Grand Master of Ubisoft, I would rule that the games are the games, and every other media should expandthe game experience, not replace it. But I'm not the GMU (not yet, but I have demanded a recount), and from Amancio's later interviews, Ubi has decided people want their AC games to be "social," so we can probably expect more side apps, not fewer. Initiates is the least of your worries--by AC7 we may have to link our Uplay accounts to twitcher and myface just to launch the game.

edit:
@guardian_titan
I didn't read Forsaken, and the only thing I didn't know from your paragraph was that STDs aren't STDs any more----when did that happen?

LoyalACFan
09-08-2014, 03:05 AM
Yeah, it sucks. I really don't care that much about the modern stuff anymore, but Initiates just feels like a cheap way of stringing along the modern day fans without actually crafting a well-thought-out story.

BloodHerritage
09-08-2014, 03:08 AM
Ubisoft isn't the only one that does it. Try playing World of Warcraft. There are many spots in the game, particularly just prior to expansions, where you're required to read the accompanying books or you'll be left scratching your head on what happened. Bioware does it with the Dragon Age series, too, although Bioware's usually better about explaining who a person is without requiring you to go pick up a book/comic. The Marvel and DC movies started off being self contained, but now they're getting so intermixed you're required to watch them all in order. Seems DC's going to require you read the comics to understand Batman vs Superman, too, with their million cameos. But hey, that's a business seeking money for you. They see money, not whether or not the fan base will be willing to actually pick up the story in all of the available medias. I imagine many customers are lost once stories start to go cross media and require each other to keep up with the story.

Personally, I think that games should be self contained. It should tell an entire story from start to finish and not leave loose ends (unless the story spans multiple games, but all threads should be tied up by the end). Books (or comics) should only serve to expand upon something but not be required. With AC3, Forsaken was not needed to understand the game but reading Forsaken was a nice expansion. For AC4, you're almost required to read not only the tie-in novel but also Forsaken. AC4 leaves you scratching your head on who Caroline was, what Edward's relationship was to Jenny, and his history prior to and after the game. You're stuck inferring a lot. Oh, the chick Edward's in bed with in flashbacks must be his wife. Who's the kid? Guess he must of had a daughter. Guess Edward wasn't faithful to his wife given he chats about STIs (or STDs as they were called for the longest time) with Roberts. If you wanted to know how Edward died, you had to read Forsaken. If you wanted to know more about the boy in the opera scene at the end, you had to not only play AC3 but also read Forsaken. Never should a novel/comic be required to understand something. Ubisoft has the advantage of the Animus database within the game to tie up loose ends but often often they don't. They should have shown a picture of child Haytham AND adult Haytham in the same entry to say, "Hey, we're the same person!" and put in a bit of a blip regarding AC3 but yet there's hardly anything there. Instead, they hope you'll read the novel, or, in Daniel Cross's case, read the comic. While I can understand it from a marketing point of view (hey, money!), it's a terrible way to put in a carrot on a stick. It's more like they give us a carrot and then hit us with a cattle prod afterward forcing us to go after the carrot or we get lost.

I can't help but dread ACU. Is the novel going to be required to really understand Arno and Elise? Shay won't have a novel so will his story be fully understood? Aveline's left a lot to be desired.

Well, Marvel's Earth 19999 movies are the perfect example of how it SHOULD be done. If you are watching Avengers and you enjoy it its cause you ike that kind of movies so anyway you will also enjoy the other movies. Each movie is released in chronologic order and you can see how the unniverse expands. For Agents of Shield it's another history since you gotta see the movies to understand some plot points in the serie.


I have been boycotting Initiates since June and will continue to boycott it until they launch it again.

OP, can I ask what inspired to launch this thread today, when Initiates has been down for 10 weeks? It is certainly your right, but it seems strange to get worked up over a website that has been (at least temporarily) defunct for 2 1/2 months. (There is another thread dealing with Initiates unlocking in=game content).

In the meantime, let me assure you, i'm not aware that Initiates has ever provided " information that is needed to mantain the games coherent." In fact, I would be hard pressed to provide any solid evidence of coherence of any kind. That being said, if they did reveal critical plots points on Initiates, wouldn't it be preferable that the information be available in a freely-accessible website rather than a paid DLC (or comic or book or card game or ...) ?

If I was the Grand Master of Ubisoft, I would rule that the games are the games, and every other media should expandthe game experience, not replace it. But I'm not the GMU (not yet, but I have demanded a recount), and from Amancio's later interviews, Ubi has decided people want their AC games to be "social," so we can probably expect more side apps, not fewer. Initiates is the least of your worries--by AC7 we may have to link our Uplay accounts to twitcher and myface just to launch the game.

edit:
@guardian_titan
I didn't read Forsaken, and the only thing I didn't know from your paragraph was that STDs aren't STDs any more----when did that happen?

Because i just found that in AC Initiates demond's ADN has been sneeked out of Abstergo. I didn't even know it was/is down.

HDinHB
09-08-2014, 04:35 AM
Because i just found that in AC Initiates demond's ADN has been sneeked out of Abstergo. I didn't even know it was/is down.

Soooo...from what Ubi is saying, neither Arno or Shay are ancestors of Desmond, so his DNA doesn't matter to either of those characters.

In any case, Desmond's DNA was uploaded to the cloud at the end of AC3 anyway [poor sucker hacked iCloud to get Des's DNA and all he got was naked pics of Kate Upton...idiot!] Also, Tab was shown sneaking stuff out to Rev and Sean in AC4, so if they need to reintroduce Des's DNA at any point in the future, it should take about a sentence to clear that up (if you had told me his DNA was sneaked out in game during AC4 i would have believed you---all those sticky notes and voice recordings...honestly, that would have all been just as good on a website). There are plenty of reasons to dislike or like Initiates, but I don't think this one is worth worrying about.

Megas_Doux
09-08-2014, 04:47 AM
What happens with UBI is that since they try SO hard to squish AC into the most media possible, they spread the lore ALL over the place and thus, they rest potential and substance to what should be the main focus: the actual GAMES!

The modern story has suffered from that, the transtion from AC III to AC IV was kinda covered in initiates, which left EVERYBODY who did not have access to it, wondering where is Bill now and why Shaun and Rebbeca were working in Montreal. The modern part in aC IV felt like easter eggs and fan service instead actual story....

BATISTABUS
09-08-2014, 05:01 AM
I care a lot about the modern story...but I just can't be bothered to play Initiates. Oh well.

Assassin_M
09-08-2014, 06:35 AM
Initiates is cool and AC IV's modern day is awesome, stop whining.

GoldenBoy9999
09-08-2014, 08:12 AM
I liked following the modern day story in previous games but they lost me in AC IV. When Initiates comes back I'll look into these things but, I don't understand how Sean and Rebecca got to Abstergo, how other people can access other people's ancestors, and why Abstergo is making Assassin video games and it seems like I'm the only one getting the footage.

king-hailz
09-08-2014, 08:24 AM
I agree with you 100% they have so many missed opportunities from initiates that would have made better modern day missions. Initiates is terrible! Although I use it because I love the modern day I don't like using it... They are forcing me to go on a stupid Web page to read about that they are too lazy to put in the game!

Also this whole thing that they are do proud of that the modern day is going on with our real world time is just so FUC.KING STUPID! It's not interesting at all it is just so bad... It is ruining there entire modern day! They never should have done this... seriously I wish we could back in time and I was there with them to tell them not to do it! Lol.

pacmanate
09-08-2014, 08:35 AM
Initiates are for the hardcore modern day fans. If you're any bit intrigued by Desmond's story, Initiates was made for you.

Not true, I love AC but I don't like Initiates.

Fatal-Feit
09-08-2014, 08:37 AM
I didn't say the hardcore fans had to like it.

king-hailz
09-08-2014, 08:49 AM
I HATE when people say that only hardcore fans use initiates. I am probably one of the biggest MD fans on the forums but I think initiates is terrible! All those stories they have on initiates should have been re thought and designed for an awesome modern day in game! As long as they have initiates they will not have a good Modern Day in games!

They need to stop it and use those ideas for the games to make THEM the best... Instead of expanding on the franchise to make it a massive business with comics action figures Web pages and movies they should fix the games to make them the best they can be!

dewgel
09-08-2014, 10:14 AM
Unfortunately, I do agree. While a lot of effort has went into crafting Initiates and bringing it all together, there’s too many major plotlines in it. I don’t think you have to be a hardcore fan to feel like you’re missing something when using it.

Again, with Daniel Cross, there was no context to it in AC3. We got a small “Who was that?” thing, but nothing else. Core story elements should never be left outside of the main narrative. Things like ‘why’ should be, which gives you incentive to do them. But the fact that things happened, no, we should be given that on a plate in the story.

This whole filling the gap between games using Initiates and NOT catching up in the game is pretty bad. I mean, between AC3 and Black Flag, the present day has William doing quite a few interesting things, then the Altair II and so forth. There’s no catch up or no ‘this is what happened between then and now’

I can imagine AC4 Black Flag looking like a mess to a casual player, in terms of the present day. Just firing up the game and getting the first person stuff with no idea how we got there, why we’re there or what we’re here, and yet again another ending which creates more questions than answers.

Layytez
09-08-2014, 10:25 AM
I like Initiates because it keeps going even after you have completed the latest game. You don't need to play those games on the site to find out whats going on in the present. I used to check every 1-2 weeks to see whats happening and I never had to play those games. It fills the gap in well they just need to add more to the main games themselves.

Farlander1991
09-08-2014, 10:39 AM
AC4 leaves you scratching your head on who Caroline was, what Edward's relationship was to Jenny, and his history prior to and after the game.

Disagree with this strongly.

AC4 story is perfectly understandable without any supplemental material (heck, in fact, I would say that the novel detracts from the game's plot by creating connections with Templars for Edward far before he even knew about them, that's just farfetched). There's no need to expand more on either Caroline or Jenny than they were in the game, or any other elements for that matter.

The only exception would be the sequence in the theatre after the credits, where you need at least AC3 knowledge to understand why the scene is included there in the first place. Which, to be fair, is fine, considering we need knowledge from one of the main games, and it's an after-credit sequence that's not part of the main narrative but fan-service.

NondairyGold
09-08-2014, 02:11 PM
You should just enjoy it for what it is, it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. It's just going to get more "intrusive" (according to some) going by this interview. I for one enjoy it, but each to their own

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/09/05/designing-the-future-of-assassin-39-s-creed.aspx

Watch the video at the 2:53 mark and I can see a lot of people being disappointed! In saying that there will probably far more happy with it, outnumbering the disappointed, and that's why they're going to plough ahead with it.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnJkCU4iswI#t=173

Jackdaw951
09-08-2014, 04:01 PM
Initiates is cool and AC IV's modern day is awesome, stop whining.

Initiates has been down the entire time I've known about it (since I got into Black Flag a couple of months back). So I don't understand how you can say it's "cool". More like stone cold right now.

This thread is good info for me, since I've been completely out of the loop on Initiates. I agree that the game story should all be in the game. Extras are fine, as long as that is all that they are.

Kakuzu745
09-08-2014, 04:18 PM
Initiates has been down the entire time I've known about it (since I got into Black Flag a couple of months back). So I don't understand how you can say it's "cool". More like stone cold right now.

This thread is good info for me, since I've been completely out of the loop on Initiates. I agree that the game story should all be in the game. Extras are fine, as long as that is all that they are.

He can say it is cool because he got to use it. It is being revamped now...that does not mean it is not cool.

Megas_Doux
09-08-2014, 04:27 PM
Initiates is cool and AC IV's modern day is awesome, stop whining.

The modern AC IV is made mostly of some really good easter eggs and fan services, but few story. While Initiates explained what happened to Bill, what are the assassins endeavors and what is going on, AC IV is just there.....

Fatal-Feit
09-08-2014, 04:32 PM
AC:IV, and the future installments, are suppose to be their own self-contained story. It's purposely not too impacting on the world.

Initiates are where the real action is at.

Ureh
09-08-2014, 05:02 PM
Disagree with this strongly.

AC4 story is perfectly understandable without any supplemental material (heck, in fact, I would say that the novel detracts from the game's plot by creating connections with Templars for Edward far before he even knew about them, that's just farfetched). There's no need to expand more on either Caroline or Jenny than they were in the game, or any other elements for that matter.

The only exception would be the sequence in the theatre after the credits, where you need at least AC3 knowledge to understand why the scene is included there in the first place. Which, to be fair, is fine, considering we need knowledge from one of the main games, and it's an after-credit sequence that's not part of the main narrative but fan-service.

They also included a snippet from Edward's journal in the modern day, in which he describes the first time he met his future wife, Caroline. I think the animus database also says she is his wife, if it wasn't already obvious.

Bastiaen
09-08-2014, 05:34 PM
I love initiates.
It's not about taking the story out of the game. ACIV had the most content about the modern day that any of the games have, including the most character development for Desmond. It was at that time that Initiates was at it's peak. It's truly a great site, and though it can get better (I have faith in the updates!) it was exceptionally interesting to explore. I also love the missions, as they bring some fun new extra objectives to your games.
Really there is no reason to complain about Initiates, since it's not like they exported the story there, just brought more details, and if you want them, what's keeping you from getting them? (Besides it being offline right now).
Let's do remember that this is an entertainment product, designed to be fun, so we should do what's fun, and hold off from what isn't. If you don't like initiates, don't use it, and if you do, then do use it.
No point in complaining.

JustPlainQuirky
09-08-2014, 05:41 PM
If you don't like initiates, don't use it, and if you do, then do use it.

This would be a much easier solution if it wasn't possibly mandatory for fully completing AC Unity.

or completing simple tasks such as opening a chest (which should be what the lockpick skill is for)

Hans684
09-08-2014, 06:01 PM
Access The Animus and the AC Wiki, no missed updates. Following the story without trouble, I rest my case. And Initiates expands the lore, how is is bad to get more story? Especially now, Initiates is more independent. Imagine all the Initiates information shoehorned in to a game with a story of it's own. It would be a bloody mess. I don't use Initiates myself but ATA and the ACW keeps me on track.

rickprog
09-09-2014, 05:14 AM
I feel Initiates does a great job at keeping the information all in one site in a very particular format while making it functional for the games themselves. It was pretty hard to keep up with everything going on in the AC universe before and the only way to do so was the AC Wiki, but not everyone feels motivated enough to start reading everything about the games through the format wikis are made. However, Initiates has ways of rewarding you to keep up with the lore, and in case you don't want to know everything about it and just the modern day stuff, it's compiled quite well and in a very concise manner, so it's not like there's a lot of effort to do to be updated with it.

Initiates gets my approval seal.

RinoTheBouncer
09-13-2014, 01:27 PM
I agree with you to some extent. I mean I’m alright with Initiates enriching the modern day story, but I’m not ok with it being a substitute for it.

Acrimonious_Nin
09-14-2014, 01:53 PM
I feel Initiates does a great job at keeping the information all in one site in a very particular format while making it functional for the games themselves. It was pretty hard to keep up with everything going on in the AC universe before and the only way to do so was the AC Wiki, but not everyone feels motivated enough to start reading everything about the games through the format wikis are made. However, Initiates has ways of rewarding you to keep up with the lore, and in case you don't want to know everything about it and just the modern day stuff, it's compiled quite well and in a very concise manner, so it's not like there's a lot of effort to do to be updated with it.

Initiates gets my approval seal.

Actually, the fans maintain a better database of information than the proper authority on the matter. The wikia as of now has and will have more information than what Initiates could ever have...Initiates, for what it's worth, only repeated the same information that everyone already knew if they had kept up with the story/lore up till ACIV. The wikia is the only real source of actualy in-lore information available...The Initiates were copying the wikia with only a proper Interface to make it look "better" than the non-graphical wikia...other than that...modern day story is nicely compiled in a nice and organized manner :D

This thread gets my approval seal. Sooner or later the games will remove the story driven plot and become full gameplay...story will be located only on Initiates ;)

Shahkulu101
09-14-2014, 03:27 PM
Not interested in Initiates and it's content but if people like it and the site is successful I wnt advocate for it's removal. However I do not support being forced to use to access certain in game content.

You don't win people over to your product by forcing them to use it. Case in point, Kinect. Either the requirement to use Initiates will be removed, or the majority of people will just ignore the chests.