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badatit
07-13-2004, 10:26 AM
S' Oleg. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
This "Sim" ROCKS!

Two Quick questions for you though.
The P-51D-20NA being the only A/C I fly currently, I'm wondering...
1)Why no mirrors, like the P-51C-NT?
Pic1 (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/Blicks%20Schematic%20LH-U.jpg)
Pic2 (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/Double%20Trouble%20Two.jpg)
Pic3 (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/p-51/sideview_2.jpg)
Pic4 (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/p-51/p-51d_color.jpg)

2) Why no Rockets?
P51D Armament (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/p-51_mustang_specifications.asp)

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Salute to you and yours.

[This message was edited by badatit on Tue July 13 2004 at 01:28 PM.]

badatit
07-13-2004, 10:26 AM
S' Oleg. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
This "Sim" ROCKS!

Two Quick questions for you though.
The P-51D-20NA being the only A/C I fly currently, I'm wondering...
1)Why no mirrors, like the P-51C-NT?
Pic1 (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/Blicks%20Schematic%20LH-U.jpg)
Pic2 (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/Double%20Trouble%20Two.jpg)
Pic3 (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/p-51/sideview_2.jpg)
Pic4 (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/p-51/p-51d_color.jpg)

2) Why no Rockets?
P51D Armament (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/p-51_mustang_specifications.asp)

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Salute to you and yours.

[This message was edited by badatit on Tue July 13 2004 at 01:28 PM.]

badatit
07-13-2004, 11:13 AM
Here are a few more pics.
78thFG
Pic1 (http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/keithmallenp51.jpg)
Pic2 (http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/shermanoiler.jpg)
Pic3 (http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/guardianangels1.jpg)
Pic4 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/78g/hl-z.jpg)
Pic5 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/78g/palopoli2.jpg)
353rdFG
Pic1 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-k.jpg)
Pic2 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-k2.jpg)
Pic3 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-lpro.jpg)
Pic4 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-p2.jpg)
Pic5 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-xviii.jpg)
Pic6 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/353g/lh-y2.jpg)
356thFG
Pic1 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/356g/brearley2.jpg)
Pic2 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/356g/cornett.jpg)
Pic3 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/356g/oc-g.jpg)
Pic4 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/356g/oc-l.jpg)
364thFG
Pic1 (http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/364g/5e-b.jpg)
See where I'm going with this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2004, 11:22 AM
Expand your horizons, and get out of that thing.
Don't be a Pony snob. It stunts yer growth. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
============================
Secondly, mirrors really were all but useless. With the plane's vibrations and everything else that was going on, they were truly of marginal utility. More a "morale measure" for newbie pilots than anything else.

Besides, if you can clearly see an enemy plane, close up with guns pointed at you in a rearview mirror....you're already dead. So, what's the point?
========================
Thirdly, in game terms, they're a real FPS hog, a big drain on your vid card (along the same magnitude as flying over Berlin or a major city) and create more problems than they solve.

badatit
07-13-2004, 12:29 PM
I appreciate your concern, but this hardly adresses my request.
============================================
I disagree, I have flown the P-51C-NT, as well as variants of the P38, and Spitfire, and have found the mirror quite useful.
I have spoted A/C trailing me in Warclouds servers, well before they get into icon range.
===============================================
Again, I apprciate your concern, but without knowing what my system spec.s are....how could you possibly know what impact a mirror has on my system?
===============================================
Thanks for your time.

Anyone else care to try to talk me out of wanting a P-51D-20NA equiped with rockets, and a mirror?

Edited: For grammer.

[This message was edited by badatit on Tue July 13 2004 at 01:15 PM.]

PlaneEater
07-13-2004, 12:45 PM
Just ignore Stiglr. The rest of us do.

I wouldn't mind mirrors and HVARs on the P-51s at all, considering they were both widely used.

MEGILE
07-13-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Expand your horizons, and get out of that thing.
Don't be a Pony snob. It stunts yer growth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Secondly, mirrors really were all but useless. With the plane's vibrations and everything else that was going on, they were truly of marginal utility. More a "morale measure" for newbie pilots than anything else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 word.. realism

Marginal is better than nothing in a game of life and death..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Besides, if you can clearly see an enemy plane, close up with guns pointed at you in a rearview mirror....you're already dead. So, what's the point? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sometimes the enemy is conscientious enough to do a nice interception starting from long off your 6.. mirrors help you to see the bandit behind you..
Also in my P-47 I like to be able to check my 6, to see if the bandit has followed me in the dive..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thirdly, in game terms, they're a real FPS hog, a big drain on your vid card (along the same magnitude as flying over Berlin or a major city) and create more problems than they solve. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 words... ON OFF... actually there are 3 settings but you get the point.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

Monty_Thrud
07-13-2004, 01:24 PM
Nice one badatit, totally agree with the mirrors they're very useful, well except in the Spitfire IX where its pointing skyward, would be nice to have it adjustable.
As for the rockets, that would be great also, but i think you'll need flight performance data of the P51D-20NA with the rockets attached. We've been trying to get rockets on the Hurricane but no one seems to have flight data for her with them attached.

But good luck with the P51, the more ordnance the better i say http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

p1ngu666
07-13-2004, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Expand your horizons, and get out of that thing.
Don't be a Pony snob. It stunts yer growth. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
============================
Secondly, mirrors really were all but useless. With the plane's vibrations and everything else that was going on, they were truly of marginal utility. More a "morale measure" for newbie pilots than anything else.

Besides, if you can clearly see an enemy plane, close up with guns pointed at you in a rearview mirror....you're already dead. So, what's the point?
========================
Thirdly, in game terms, they're a real FPS hog, a big drain on your vid card (along the same magnitude as flying over Berlin or a major city) and create more problems than they solve.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree with stiglr, apart from mirrors http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. galand fitted mirrors to his 109. hardly a n00b flyier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

oh and try out the j8a, p47, p40, lagg early, a il2, iar 80/81 and rata

its WORTH it i assure u http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

VW-IceFire
07-13-2004, 01:51 PM
P-51B and C should have Bazooka tubes and the P-51D-20 should have its HVAR's. Not sure why it doesnt.

We've asked before...have yet to recieve.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Willey
07-13-2004, 01:56 PM
Some Stukas also were equipped with mirrors, and La-5FNs if I'm not mistaken...

if there just wasn't an 80% fps drop... and why the hell 2 ON modes? The only difference is that one of them doesn't show ground objects, but it doesn't affect frame rate at all... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Gibbage1
07-13-2004, 02:51 PM
I think the HVAR on P-51 was braught up before. Nobody could provide proof that they were mounted on P-51's before the war ended. All photo's of P-51's with HVAR's that were shown were from Korea.

Please try and find proof of HVAR use in WWII Europ. Also drawings of P-51's with mirrors are not the best sort of proof http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do agree that there should be mirrors, but please find photographic proof.

Gib

Willey
07-13-2004, 03:24 PM
HVARS were used from P-47D-30 on which we don't have. I think I read that the P-51D-20 already had them, but the D-5 did not.

pcisbest
07-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Yeah, I think later P-47s and P-51s had HVAR, besides in IL-2, the P-38 gets them so why not the P-51 or 47?

Gibbage1
07-13-2004, 03:43 PM
Please find proof that P-51's had them during WWII. You cant get things changed in this game by "I think". It just wont cut it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcisbest:
Yeah, I think later P-47s and P-51s had HVAR, besides in IL-2, the P-38 gets them so why not the P-51 or 47?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX_Luthor
07-13-2004, 04:32 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Listen to Stiglr, turn off teh USA Dogfighter Channel, and try something New. We have never had this much Choice in any of the hundreds of "made in usa" and "made by microsoft" P~51 sims releaced over the last 30 years.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Expand your horizons, and get out of that thing.
Don't be a Pony snob. It stunts yer growth. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-13-2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Please find proof that P-51's had them during WWII. You cant get things changed in this game by "I think". It just wont cut it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcisbest:
Yeah, I think later P-47s and P-51s had HVAR, besides in IL-2, the P-38 gets them so why not the P-51 or 47?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gib, say is it possible to ask oleg if he can add another version of the P38 (one with WaterIncetion or something) were such "high-rated" P38 in use ?

(it'S the only US-plane i like to fly)

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

Liosha
07-13-2004, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badatit:
S' Oleg. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
This "Sim" ROCKS!

Two Quick questions for you though.
The P-51D-20NA being the only A/C I fly currently, I'm wondering...
1)Why no mirrors, like the P-51C-NT?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact i asked this question months ago in Russian forum. Never got an answer. Looks like developers work with the new projects and do not bother with FB anymore (apart from bug fixing and 3rd party planes).

P.S. By the way, those Mustangs which do not show the mirror on the bubble on the pictures, - actually have them attached inside the canopy.

badatit
07-13-2004, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I think the HVAR on P-51 was braught up before. Nobody could provide proof that they were mounted on P-51's before the war ended. All photo's of P-51's with HVAR's that were shown were from Korea.

I'm looking for HVAR pics now.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Please try and find proof of HVAR use in WWII Europ. Also drawings of P-51's with mirrors are not the best sort of proof http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do agree that there should be mirrors, but please find photographic proof.

Check all of the pics..many are authentic photos.
S'

BigKahuna_GS
07-13-2004, 05:19 PM
S!


From the 357th FG
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/357thfg-gallery.jsp

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/357g/g4-m.jpg
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/359g/IV-W.jpg
"round" Mirror pic late 1944
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/357g/g4-n2.jpg

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/359g/jtg3.jpg
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/359g/dusty2.jpg
"rectangular" mirror pic


______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Gibbage1
07-13-2004, 05:33 PM
My appologies that I did not click on all the pics. I clicked on a random set (about 5) and they all came up as profile drawings. I assumed the rest were also drawings.

Thats settled. They did have the mirrors. Who tells Oleg? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now on to the HVAR. Oleg said only Korea did they have mounts for HVAR. I hope someone can prove him wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badatit:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I think the HVAR on P-51 was braught up before. Nobody could provide proof that they were mounted on P-51's before the war ended. All photo's of P-51's with HVAR's that were shown were from Korea.

I'm looking for HVAR pics now.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Please try and find proof of HVAR use in WWII Europ. Also drawings of P-51's with mirrors are not the best sort of proof http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do agree that there should be mirrors, but please find photographic proof.

Check all of the pics..many are authentic photos.
S'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BigKahuna_GS
07-13-2004, 06:26 PM
S!


From Zenos Warbirds site :
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-51ROCKETLAUNCH.gif
WW2 P51D Weapons Loadout of HVARS


http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-514GDIVE.gif
Dive Performance


____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

VW-IceFire
07-13-2004, 06:50 PM
HVAR mounts or not...where's the bazooka tubes? Those I have pictures of mounted on A and B's at the very least (and by association the C I imagine too).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BigKahuna_GS
07-13-2004, 07:24 PM
S!

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/PreCradleP-47N.JPG
This P-47N-25-RE would eventually find its way into the Cradle of Aviation Museum's collection. In this undated photo, the fighter appears in postwar livery. The ordnance under the wings is certainly deactivated for display. There even seems to be something akin to ETO invasion stripes on the bottom of the fuselage, just aft of the wing. This photo does illustrate the N model's unique dorsal fillet to good effect.


P-47D at war (ETO)

The "P-47D-40" was the final P-47D subvariant, and was a more significant update. Cutting down the rear fuselage to accommodate the bubble canopy had led to yaw instability in the aircraft's flight, so the P-47D-40 had a neat dorsal fin extension in the form of a narrow triangle running from the vertical tailplane to the radio aerial. The dorsal fin extension was retrofitted in the field to earlier P-47D bubble-top variants.

The P-47D-40 also featured provisions for ten "zero length" stub launchers for 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "High Velocity Air Rockets (HVARs)", as well as the new "K-14" computing gunsight. This was a license-built copy of the British Ferranti GGS Mark IID computing gyro sight, which allowed a pilot to dial in target wingspan and range, and would then tell the pilot when he had a good shot at the target. The K-14 was a great assistance in deflection shooting.

[edit]

I keep finding articals that state both the P51D and P47D-30 models on up carried HVARS. Someone posted a link to a P51D HVAR attack in Japan-cant find it.

___

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
07-13-2004, 07:57 PM
S!

Heres a better picture:
http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/318th.htm


http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/P-47.JPG
P-47 with crews posing - from personal photos collection of Ed Solensky, 73rd FS mechanic


_Having trouble finding more pics

___

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Wolf_Fangs1381
07-13-2004, 09:42 PM
Hello Everyone,

A friend of mine has a book titled Classic Aircraft of WWII. It was written by Lieutenant Colonel A.J Barker. He private messaged me the following information from the book.

"The P-51D had its wings strengthened to accept two 1000lb bombs or a combination of 500lb ones and drop tanks, or 5in High Velocity Aircraft Rockets, for whiccch projector mountings were fitted to the last 1100 P-51Ds manufactured at Inglewood. Triple bazooka-type rocket launchers had previously been fitted."

So they were fitted to the D mustang as was shown in the picture posted by 609IAP_Kahuna. However,it was the last 1100 manufactured. I know I have seen them used while watching shows on the history channel plus videos my grandmother owns. I did a bit of searching but haven't found any photo's showing them. I'll keep looking. I am one of the few (?) who think's the D mustang should have them. =S=

P.S. I have also talked a to P-51 pilot (can't remember who though) who said they were used in the PTO after the war ended in Europe.

Semper Fi!! Carry On!!
Squirral aka Wolf_Fangs

Download My Skins Here (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=Squirral&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1074322928)

Bearcat99
07-13-2004, 09:43 PM
Nice thread..... good posts badatit.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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IMMERSION BABY!!

alarmer
07-14-2004, 01:05 AM
"Thats settled. They did have the mirrors. Who tells Oleg? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

And man were they ugly or not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And how does those external Thingys affect the aerodynamics? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Sorry couldnt resist http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif All this extra is nice for the sim, throw a mail to Oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by alarmer on Wed July 14 2004 at 12:18 AM.]

badatit
07-14-2004, 02:15 AM
Salute to all.
I found this...
Scroll way down to P51D (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nortp51.html)

It reads,
Early P-51D's had provisions for two underwing assemblies of 3 launcher tubes for the 4.5 inch (114mm) M8 air-to-surface rockets with the HE warhead. The P-51D-25 and onward possessed zero-length underwing launchers for the 5 inch (127mm) HVAR air-to-surface rockets with an HE warhead. In this case 3 launchers under each wing could be carried together with drop tanks, or 5 launchers under each wing without droptanks.

Edit: Heres another take on the above...
Early models had rocket launchers (http://members.fortunecity.com/llium/history/warbirds/usa/p-51.html)
It reads,
The first XP-51D made its maiden flight in November 1943, and demand for production forced North American to turn out 800 of the aircraft with the original cockpit and fuselage design. The next 7,156 aircraft were completed with the bubble canopy and rushed into service. The early versions had incorporated three 'bazooka' like launcher tubes for the 4.5 inch M8 air-to-surface rocket with an HE warhead. These were replaced in the P-51D-25 version with zero-length underwing launchers for the 5 inch HVAR rockets also carrying a HE warhead. Standard loadout allowed for 5 launchrs under each wing, or 3 each if bombs or drop tanks were used.

The P-51D was used in most theaters involving the US Army Air Forces, and its range made it the first P-51 variant to be used for the escorting the Boeing B-29 Superfortress heavy bombers of the US 20th Army Air Force into the Japanese home islands from bases in the Marianas. Even with the P-51D's extended range, most had to operate from the island of Iwo Jima which is somewhat closer to Japan, and still had to carry two 165 gal drop tanks. The P-51D was also flown by units of the 14th Army Air Force in China, and of the 7th Army Air Force in the Philippines.

and this...Here's some info on the M8's
UNGUIDED ROCKETS IN WORLD WAR II (http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb5.html#m1)
It reads,
The earliest unguided rocket system used operationally by the United States in World War II was the "M-8" 11.4 centimeter (4.5 inch) triple-tube "Bazooka" launcher. This weapon consisted of what looked like three pipes bundled together, each containing a stubby rocket about 40 centimeters (16 inches) long, with the bundle attached to an aircraft's stores pylons in place of a bomb.
The M-8 had fins that unfolded in the airstream after launch. It was very inaccurate, but had a reasonable punch. The M-8 was used with US Army Air Force aircraft such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, North American P-51 Mustang, and Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

The British developed their own unguided airborne "rocket projectile (RP)". This was a simple weapon with fixed cruciform tailfins and a tubular body 7.62 centimeters (3 inches) in diameter. The RP was originally developed for barrage anti-aircraft fire in the desperate days of 1940:41, but after the threat of invasion receded, the large stocks available were adapted for use by attack aircraft.

The RP could be fitted with an 11 kilogram (25 pound) solid armor-piercing head, or a bulbous 12.5 centimeter (5 inch) high explosive warhead. The high-explosive version was also known as the "60 pounder" (27 kilogram) RP for the warhead weight. These rockets were used to arm the Hawker Hurricane, Hawker Typhoon, Bristol Beaufighter, de Havilland Mosquito, and other aircraft.

The relatively cluttered launch rails used by the RP usually reduced the speed of the carrier aircraft by a good fraction, but the rockets were effective enough to make the reduction in performance worthwhile. The Typhoon so was devastating in attacks on German armor with the 60-pounder that it became known as "Rockoon".

The RP was also supplied to some US aircraft such as the Grumman TBM Avenger, but combat experience demonstrated to the Americans needed something with more punch than the M-8 or the British RP. The US Navy accordingly sponsored the development of an improved aerial rocket at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resulting in the 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "High Velocity Air Rocket (HVAR)", which was introduced in mid-1944. The HVAR was also occasionally known as "Holy Moses" because of its impressive destructive effect.

The HVAR was 1.83 meters (6 feet) long and weighed 63.5 kilograms (140 pounds). It had fixed fins and was carried on streamlined stub pylons under the wings of aircraft such as the Thunderbolt, Mustang, Grumman F6F Hellcat, and Vought F4U Corsair. It had a steel-cased warhead and could penetrate 3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) of armor and 1.2 meters (4 feet) of reinforced concrete.

It was also used in the Korean War with good effect. Some photographs from that time show HVARs fitted with large conical armor-piercing warheads. These were apparently improvised when UN forces found out just how hard a target a Soviet-built T-34 tank really was.

Note the first sentence, in the last paragraph.

[This message was edited by badatit on Wed July 14 2004 at 02:42 AM.]

BigKahuna_GS
07-14-2004, 03:06 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ______________________
alarmer --And man were they ugly or not
posted 14-07-04 00:05
"Thats settled. They did have the mirrors. Who tells Oleg? "
__________________________________________________ ______________________


http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/357g/bud.jpg

I thought the low profile aerodynamic mirror was kinda cool looking.

I sent an email to Oleg containing pics and links to all.


_______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

VW-IceFire
07-14-2004, 07:16 AM
So....none of the P-51D versions we have were HVAR capable. Ok...still, we have plenty of documentation on the Bazooka tubes. Please fit those on our P-51's.

Or heck...give us a P-51D-25, add on the HVAR's, and drop in a nice all metal skin and we'll be 100% happy.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Tooz_69GIAP
07-14-2004, 07:38 AM
Never mind bout the damned P-51!!!!

What about the greatest travesty in this game?????

I WANT MY 8xRS-82 ROCKETS ON MY LA-5!!!!!!!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Komandir Eskadrilya, 69th GShAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

BigKahuna_GS
07-14-2004, 10:11 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ ________________________
IceFire--So....none of the P-51D versions we have were HVAR capable. Ok...still, we have plenty of documentation on the Bazooka tubes. Please fit those on our P-51's.
Or heck...give us a P-51D-25, add on the HVAR's, and drop in a nice all metal skin and we'll be 100% happy.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Right on Ice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What is interesting is that Oleg has added features of other aircraft to the current FB/AEP models we have now for various reasons. For example, Oleg gave the P47D-27 the roll rate of a P47D-30 -because of a lack of flight model info and this looked to be the closest match.

If these new models cannot be added that carried HVARs because of workload, time, PF etc. I say field mod them like the aircraft that did. There is virtually no difference between the P47D-27 & D30 varients or the P51D-20NA and P51D-25 (externally).

The P47D-30 carried HVARs so give the P47D-27 that capability :

P-47D at war (ETO)

The P-47D-30 was improved with a "bubble" canopy and cut-down rear fuselage. This version became also able to launch HVAR rockets.
830 P-47D were delivered to the RAF. In RAF service, the "razorback" P-47D was known as the Thunderbolt I and the "bubble canopy" P-47D was known as Thunderbolt II. 446 P-47Ds were delivered to the Free French forces, and about 200 to USSR.

The "P-47D-40" was the final P-47D subvariant, and was a more significant update. Cutting down the rear fuselage to accommodate the bubble canopy had led to yaw instability in the aircraft's flight, so the P-47D-40 had a neat dorsal fin extension in the form of a narrow triangle running from the vertical tailplane to the radio aerial. The dorsal fin extension was retrofitted in the field to earlier P-47D bubble-top variants.

The P-47D-40 also featured provisions for ten "zero length" stub launchers for 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "High Velocity Air Rockets (HVARs)", as well as the new "K-14" computing gunsight. This was a license-built copy of the British Ferranti GGS Mark IID computing gyro sight, which allowed a pilot to dial in target wingspan and range, and would then tell the pilot when he had a good shot at the target. The K-14 was a great assistance in deflection shooting.

[edit]


____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Tooz_69GIAP
07-14-2004, 11:56 AM
Just a wee note to say that the K-14 gunsight kicks azz!!!

Just a wee bit of confusion over it exists for me though....

.....how does it work in game??

I know that the gyro sight has specific settings which correspond to certain aircraft (Fw-190, Me-210, etc), and the marker shows you basically the point at which the designated target for which you have dialed in yer sight is in your convergence range.

But how does the gunsight know yer convergence if you haven't inputted it into the sight??? Does the convergence you set for the aircraft in the arming section get transferred to the K-14 once you are in game, or what?

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Komandir Eskadrilya, 69th GShAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

badatit
07-15-2004, 12:39 AM
Well, I've searched and searched, this is about as close as I can get.

The Final Drive Begins (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Utah/USA-A-Utah-10.html)

The second paragraph reads,
A few minutes before the fighter-bombers appeared, front lines were marked with yellow smoke and bomb lines with white phosphorus. At 1240 the pre-H-Hour bombing and strafing attacks were initiated by four squadrons of rocket-firing Typhoons, followed by six squadrons of Mustangs, all from the 2d Tactical Air Force (RAF). At approximately 1300 the attacks were taken over by twelve groups of fighter-bombers of the Ninth Air Force. For fifty-five minutes P-47's, P-38's, and P-51's (562 planes) bombed and strafed front-line strong points at low level, one group coming over approximately every five minutes. Between 1300 and 1330, the 47th, 60th, and 22d Infantry Regiments all called their headquarters to say that they were being bombed and strafed by friendly planes, and sought means of stopping the attacks. These units and others suffered several casualties from the air attacks. The errors were believed to have been caused at least in part by the drift of the marking smoke in the fairly strong northeast wind. As the mediums began to come over at 1400 to bomb the German lines in front of the 9th and 79th Divisions, the attacking units jumped off; at 1430 the three regiments of the 4th Division joined the attack. Between 1400 and 1455 the eleven groups of light and medium bombers of the IX Bomber Command (387 planes) delivered their attacks on the eleven defended areas expected to give trouble in the drive on the city.

However, it seems the Jug, and Typhoon, were the prefered ground attack A/C of the day.

Assembling the Allied Tactical Air Forces (http://www.aero-web.org/history/wwii/d-day/4.htm)

Bottom of page five reads,
Of course, other fighter-bombers operated in Normandy and across Europe, notably the Lockheed P-38 Lightning, North American P-51 Mustang, and Supermarine Spitfire. With the exception of the Lightning (which had a concentrated armament installation that made it a formidable strafer), all of these proved disappointing. Their liquid-cooled engine systems were quite vulnerable to ground fire, and thus they were used far less for ground attack and much more for air superiority operations.

Salute to all.

Uncle!

[This message was edited by badatit on Thu July 15 2004 at 12:02 AM.]

badatit
07-15-2004, 01:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Just a wee note to say that the K-14 gunsight kicks azz!!!

Just a wee bit of confusion over it exists for me though....

.....how does it work in game??

I know that the gyro sight has specific settings which correspond to certain aircraft (Fw-190, Me-210, etc), and the marker shows you basically the point at which the designated target for which you have dialed in yer sight is in your convergence range.

But how does the gunsight know yer convergence if you haven't inputted it into the sight??? Does the convergence you set for the aircraft in the arming section get transferred to the K-14 once you are in game, or what?

_whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!_

http://giap.webhop.info
_Komandir Eskadrilya, 69th GShAP_
_Za Rodinu!_
http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here ya go (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=642102025)

TheGozr
07-15-2004, 11:19 AM
SAme for YAK 3 they had mirrors too..but not ingame...

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/study/yak3/MY3.jpg

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

Tooz_69GIAP
07-16-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badatit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Just a wee note to say that the K-14 gunsight kicks azz!!!

Just a wee bit of confusion over it exists for me though....

.....how does it work in game??

I know that the gyro sight has specific settings which correspond to certain aircraft (Fw-190, Me-210, etc), and the marker shows you basically the point at which the designated target for which you have dialed in yer sight is in your convergence range.

But how does the gunsight know yer convergence if you haven't inputted it into the sight??? Does the convergence you set for the aircraft in the arming section get transferred to the K-14 once you are in game, or what?

_whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!_

http://giap.webhop.info
_Komandir Eskadrilya, 69th GShAP_
_Za Rodinu!_
http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=642102025<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers!!!!

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Komandir Eskadrilya, 69th GShAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)