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Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 05:11 PM
I have always been dumbfounded at how much of a boss Ezio was in ACB. He demonstrated NO kind of intelligence, open mindedness or initiative in AC II--He was constantly babysat by the Assassins until he was 40 years old. He wanted to enter the doge's palace using the front door, he had no grasp on anything useful other than women(not a single woman sees Ezio without swooning and randomly wanting to go to bed with him) he's an all around moron, so...how does he suddenly become so intelligent in ACB while everyone else around him becomes an idiot? well, subjective memory recollection.

The animus is supposed to render the memories how the ANCESTOR lived them, right? so it's the subjective memories of the individual--my theory is that Ezio was as dumb and idiotic as he ever was but he was so insecure about it that he decided to delude himself and make it feel like he's the **** and most important thing ever.
in AC II, EVERYTHING revolved around Ezio. "We all love you, Ezio" "We were all training you, Ezio" "You are special, Ezio" "You are important, Ezio" and on and on--it never went down like that, it was just the exaggeration of an insecure child who wanted to feel special and important and then by his 40s, decided that he wanted to be intelligent as well so he GREATLY exaggerated his capabilities and skills and degraded the intellect of everyone around him.

Needless to say, Ezio wised up by his 50s, he finally realized that the world does not revolve around him and that he's only a conduit for a more important message than he can ever comprehend and I think this is the real character progression of Ezio Auditore throughout his trilogy--at first, his memories were that of a spoiled child wanting to seem important and then his memories were that of a broken man who wanted to have the skill and then finally, his memories became a realization that he does not matter.

Feel free to discuss.

ze_topazio
08-29-2014, 05:16 PM
I do think the memories are influenced by how the ancestor felt and remembered them, that's why the Borgia and Charles Lee(from Connor's perspective) looked so evil and degenerate, because do to reasons that's how Ezio and Connor perceived them.

pacmanate
08-29-2014, 05:18 PM
This is the weirdest thing ever.

However, you are right. They are reliving memories, memories can be altered and changed by a person so what we see in the animus is never 100% accurate.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 05:18 PM
I do think the memories are influenced by how the ancestor felt and remembered them, that's why the Borgia and Charles Lee(from Connor's perspective) looked so evil and degenerate, because do to reasons that's how Ezio and Connor perceived them.
Right? and when Ezio finally wised up in Revelations, his enemies started being less evil and more ambiguous..I would say that Revelations is the most accurate representation of Ezio's memories.

JustPlainQuirky
08-29-2014, 05:20 PM
Quite a conspiracy theory you got there. :rolleyes:

pacmanate
08-29-2014, 05:20 PM
I thought it was confirmed by Ubisoft that the memories weren't 100% accurate anyway? Cause they are just memories, not facts of life.

For example, I made bacon and sausages yesterday. But which did I cook first? I cooked them both in different pans, but which one cooked first?

I know that I cooked the sausage first... but in a week I might forget and just make up in my mind that it was the bacon.

jayjay275
08-29-2014, 05:20 PM
Looking at the thread title, I was expecting something ridiculous, but no. You state a valid point and I think that it is highly plausible. Good thread and good discussion.

wvstolzing
08-29-2014, 05:41 PM
This reminds me of the 'Indoctrination Theory' about ME3's ending.

It's way more interesting & intelligent, compared to what the developers themselves intended.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 05:52 PM
I think everybody's right and it makes a good explanation as to why some antagonists appear so evil while others are not as evil and antagonists appearing nice and awesome then we see them as evil and cruel bastards.

SpiritOfNevaeh
08-29-2014, 05:55 PM
I think everybody's right and it makes a good explanation as to why some antagonists appear so evil while others are not as evil and antagonists appearing nice and awesome then we see them as evil and cruel bastards.


I do think the memories are influenced by how the ancestor felt and remembered them, that's why the Borgia and Charles Lee(from Connor's perspective) looked so evil and degenerate, because do to reasons that's how Ezio and Connor perceived them.

That totally makes sense. Never even thought of it that way.

Sigv4rd
08-29-2014, 05:57 PM
But that still doesn't explain how Desmond saw himself as being interesting and important...

JustPlainQuirky
08-29-2014, 05:59 PM
But that still doesn't explain how Desmond saw himself as being interesting and important...

http://media.tumblr.com/6af78f101d260db946f94895d993ff9c/tumblr_inline_nalgoxdVUN1r0z2v3.gif

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 06:00 PM
But that still doesn't explain how Desmond saw himself as being interesting and important...
He didn't see himself that way, even his dad says he's not "special"

Sigv4rd
08-29-2014, 06:06 PM
He didn't see himself that way, even his dad says he's not "special"

"My name is Desmond Miles and this is my story" Clearly a very self deluded and strange individual...

Everyone knows Assassin's Creed is about Ezio (the greatest thing to happen to gaming in the history of time. We are truly not worthy of his greatness), and some other guys from the Middle East and America.

marvelfannumber
08-29-2014, 06:07 PM
Oh god, this theory makes my head hurt....and it doesn't even involve time travel!

EVERYTHING I KNOW IS (might) BE A LIE!

MakimotoJin
08-29-2014, 06:07 PM
I guess there is now a explanation about how Ezio was the center of the world in AC2.I heard somewhere that memories change every time we think about it,they change based on how we feel.Maybe Ezio was just a sexy adrenaline junkie.

JustPlainQuirky
08-29-2014, 06:08 PM
Haytham is building himself up the popularity ranks, Sig.

Soon it will be the Ezio and Haytham duo of greatness.

ze_topazio
08-29-2014, 06:09 PM
"My name is Desmond Miles and this is my story" Clearly a very self deluded and strange individual...

He was just pretending to be Tidus, his favorite Final Fantasy character.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 06:10 PM
"My name is Desmond Miles and this is my story" Clearly a very self deluded and strange individual...

Everyone knows Assassin's Creed is about Ezio (the greatest thing to happen to gaming in the history of time. We are truly not worthy of his greatness), and some other guys from the Middle East and America.
Nah, it seems like just someone talking about his story...which is normal, given the crap he went through...

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 06:16 PM
True... but he is still the best assassin that ever lived or they wouldn't have chosen him to be the assassin Desmond goes to, train!

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 06:18 PM
Words cannot explain how much I hate haytham! However I'm disappointed in AC3 for not making me hate him more... I was so happy when I killed him... but I kinda wanted Connor to get eaten by a squirrel later...

marvelfannumber
08-29-2014, 06:19 PM
True... but he is still the best assassin that ever lived or they wouldn't have chosen him to be the assassin Desmond goes to, train!

Skill wise...maybe. But really in the history of the assassins Ezio really wasn't super important. The only thing he really did was to polish up the italian brotherhood a good bit and get some keys.

Altair on the other hand....well you guys know.


Words cannot explain how much I hate haytham! However I'm disappointed in AC3 for not making me hate him more... I was so happy when I killed him...

You do not speak such cruel words upon our lord and saviour, Godtham!

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 06:21 PM
True... but he is still the best assassin that ever lived or they wouldn't have chosen him to be the assassin Desmond goes to, train!
You just gotta accept that Ezio was a pretentious, insecure little child--it's hard I know but you just have to accept it.

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 06:21 PM
Skill wise...maybe. But really in the history of the assassins Ezio really wasn't super important. The only thing he really did was to polish up the italian brotherhood a good bit and get some keys.

Altair on the other hand....well you guys know.

That's true altair did change what the assassins were. Hell, he made the assassins!

However I live how modest ezio was towards altair. He always knew he was more special than him and that's another reason why I love ezio!

JustPlainQuirky
08-29-2014, 06:22 PM
Words cannot explain how much I hate haytham! However I'm disappointed in AC3 for not making me hate him more... I was so happy when I killed him... but I kinda wanted Connor to get eaten by a squirrel later...

Heresy! Burn the witch!

Repent and perhaps Godtham shall reconsider sending you to the deepest pits of hell!

Will_Lucky
08-29-2014, 06:24 PM
In all honesty, we don't really get to see enough of Ezio though between the ages of 29 and 40. Sequence 13 is the only one that covers Ezio in this odd period, Sequence 12 covering his first few weeks as an inducted member of the order. And sequence 13 covering his return to Florence some years later before sequence 14 jumps seven more years. We know he goes to Spain between 12 and 13 but to be quite frank the platform of that adventure doesn't allow much plot to come through so we're blinded somewhat there.

I don't really buy the theory, Ezio is responsible for the assassination of every single Templar in Italy more or less in the AC2 time period, and parts of the ACB Time Period. I do think he started to show snippets of wisdom he would later possess in Brotherhood during Sequence 13 and 14, but again we don't really have a detailed time period of what occurred. Brotherhood also started with the death of Mario Auditore, de facto leader of the Assassins which may very well have inspired Ezio subconsciously to take over the leadership himself given the battered state of the Order in the aftermath of the Battle of Monteriggioni.

However one of my own theories relates to Ezios possession of the Apple of Eden, given he owned it from 1492 to 1500. In his battle against Rodrigo he showed obvious skill with it I do wonder if like Altair before him he utilized the Apple which in turn granted him intelligence he demonstrated by the Brotherhood timeline. Altair like Ezio didn't exactly possess much intelligence but the actions of that single week and ownership of the Apple seemed to rectify that.

I simply think we didn't see enough of Ezio between 1488 and 1500 which might have shown us at least a vague path to leadership he showed in Brotherhood. I'd theory the Apple weighs in a lot in that impressive gain but we simply don't know.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 06:34 PM
In all honesty, we don't really get to see enough of Ezio though between the ages of 29 and 40. Sequence 13 is the only one that covers Ezio in this odd period, Sequence 12 covering his first few weeks as an inducted member of the order. And sequence 13 covering his return to Florence some years later before sequence 14 jumps seven more years. We know he goes to Spain between 12 and 13 but to be quite frank the platform of that adventure doesn't allow much plot to come through so we're blinded somewhat there.
We pretty much see Ezio RIGHT before Brotherhood. Sequence 13 is only a year before attacking the Vatican and Sequence 14 didn't show anything impressive or implying wisdom from Ezio--he was still dependent on his Assassin friends as much as ever.
The only thing that implies any sort of leadership or initiative is his speech in sequence 13.....and that's DLC--Ezio's most important moment is relegated to DLC.


I don't really buy the theory, Ezio is responsible for the assassination of every single Templar in Italy more or less in the AC2 time period, and parts of the ACB Time Period. I do think he started to show snippets of wisdom he would later possess in Brotherhood during Sequence 13 and 14, but again we don't really have a detailed time period of what occurred. Brotherhood also started with the death of Mario Auditore, de facto leader of the Assassins which may very well have inspired Ezio subconsciously to take over the leadership himself given the battered state of the Order in the aftermath of the Battle of Monteriggioni.
Doesn't really matter, like I said...I stated that his importance was exaggerated in AC II, not his skill in assassinating and his intelligence was exaggerated in ACB, not his skill at assassinating and sure, it's like you said...he may have felt subconsciously responsible to lead the assassins and thus the more exaggerated intelligence he gave himself and the dumbing down of others.


However one of my own theories relates to Ezios possession of the Apple of Eden, given he owned it from 1492 to 1500. In his battle against Rodrigo he showed obvious skill with it I do wonder if like Altair before him he utilized the Apple which in turn granted him intelligence he demonstrated by the Brotherhood timeline. Altair like Ezio didn't exactly possess much intelligence but the actions of that single week and ownership of the Apple seemed to rectify that.

I simply think we didn't see enough of Ezio between 1488 and 1500 which might have shown us at least a vague path to leadership he showed in Brotherhood. I'd theory the Apple weighs in a lot in that impressive gain but we simply don't know.
Altair never held the Apple in AC I but he had wised up in that one week than Ezio ever did in 23 years

CoachAssassin
08-29-2014, 06:54 PM
You just really hate Ezio don't you :p.

However, I do have the same theory, I stated something of the like earlier somewhere. What we are seeing is what Ezio is seeing, but the way we are perceiving it is purely from his POV. To put it bluntly, Rodrigo might have slipped and accidently hit some kid across the face, while Ezio only saw the kid getting slapped. In AC2, he's IMO very poorly written, but the entire main story in my eyes was. Everything was packed with one liners and puns, making him look like Godzio, the woman devouring uber assassin. The worst thing in AC2 for me is when Ezio goes to Leonardo, a day or so after half his family has been executed and Leonardo makes Ezio think he needs to cut off his finger for the blade to work.. for a joke... wow.

Don't blame Ezio, blame the poor writing during AC2, they just really wanted to take away the serious edge from him. Sure, he's a bit of a brat but hey, can you really blame him?

In Brotherhood he just seems like a master assassin, nothing more nothing less. Revelations like you said was amazingly written and we see a more grey ''pun not intended'' Ezio.

wvstolzing
08-29-2014, 06:54 PM
Skill wise...maybe. But really in the history of the assassins Ezio really wasn't super important. The only thing he really did was to polish up the italian brotherhood a good bit and get some keys.

Ezio became the 'prophet', though, when he received Minerva's message. AC2 didn't harp on it too much, but there was a 'chosen one' theme going on for Ezio as well.

And judging from what Achilles told the yound Raton about (obviously not verbatim) 'Ezio setting certain spirits free', it looks like Minerva's message was a turning point for the Assassins as well -- later Assassins learned about the First Civ, some of them got in contact with them, etc., only after Ezio.

Then there's the 'Prophet's Codex', which is a mystery to us players at this point. Maybe ACU will feature more of it?

... none of this changes the fact that I intensely dislike him as a character, of course.

CoachAssassin
08-29-2014, 07:00 PM
Ezio became the 'prophet', though, when he received Minerva's message. AC2 didn't harp on it too much, but there was a 'chosen one' theme going on for Ezio as well.

And judging from what Achilles told the yound Raton about (obviously not verbatim) 'Ezio setting certain spirits free', it looks like Minerva's message was a turning point for the Assassins as well -- later Assassins learned about the First Civ, some of them got in contact with them, etc., only after Ezio.

Then there's the 'Prophet's Codex', which is a mystery to us players at this point. Maybe ACU will feature more of it?

... none of this changes the fact that I intensely dislike him as a character, of course.

I would say that assassin-wise he wasn't that important, hence he wouldn't be seen as one of the greatest assassins ever like Altair who devoted so much to the Brotherhood. BUT he is the Prophet for them, so he would be known by almost all who know the real story.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 07:05 PM
You just really hate Ezio don't you :p.

However, I do have the same theory, I stated something of the like earlier somewhere. What we are seeing is what Ezio is seeing, but the way we are perceiving it is purely from his POV. To put it bluntly, Rodrigo might have slipped and accidently hit some kid across the face, while Ezio only saw the kid getting slapped. In AC2, he's IMO very poorly written, but the entire main story in my eyes was. Everything was packed with one liners and puns, making him look like Godzio, the woman devouring uber assassin. The worst thing in AC2 for me is when Ezio goes to Leonardo, a day or so after half his family has been executed and Leonardo makes Ezio think he needs to cut off his finger for the blade to work.. for a joke... wow.

Don't blame Ezio, blame the poor writing during AC2, they just really wanted to take away the serious edge from him. Sure, he's a bit of a brat but hey, can you really blame him?

In Brotherhood he just seems like a master assassin, nothing more nothing less. Revelations like you said was amazingly written and we see a more grey ''pun not intended'' Ezio.
Nah...naaaaaah I like Ezio:)

Yes, Ezio is indeed a poor excuse for a protagonist, for 3 games no less.


Ezio became the 'prophet', though, when he received Minerva's message. AC2 didn't harp on it too much, but there was a 'chosen one' theme going on for Ezio as well.
Oh AC II harped on it, especially when everyone "revealed" themselves as Assassins. The entire brotherhood revolved around Ezio, the ENTIRE fate of Italy revolved around training Ezio, the fate of the world revolved on Ezio being the prophet.


And judging from what Achilles told the yound Raton about (obviously not verbatim) 'Ezio setting certain spirits free', it looks like Minerva's message was a turning point for the Assassins as well -- later Assassins learned about the First Civ, some of them got in contact with them, etc., only after Ezio.
Accidents happen, it's not like he exerted any effort to uncork the bottle, as Achilles said.


Then there's the 'Prophet's Codex', which is a mystery to us players at this point. Maybe ACU will feature more of it?
That pretentious brat "Oh Altair had a codex, i should have one too"


... none of this changes the fact that I intensely dislike him as a character, of course.
Wanna be best friends?

Kakuzu745
08-29-2014, 07:08 PM
It really makes a lot of sense actually.

And here I was thinking it was a thread about you only bashing Ezio :P

Hans684
08-29-2014, 07:08 PM
Ezio became the 'prophet', though, when he received Minerva's message. AC2 didn't harp on it too much, but there was a 'chosen one' theme going on for Ezio as well.

And judging from what Achilles told the yound Raton about (obviously not verbatim) 'Ezio setting certain spirits free', it looks like Minerva's message was a turning point for the Assassins as well -- later Assassins learned about the First Civ, some of them got in contact with them, etc., only after Ezio.

Then there's the 'Prophet's Codex', which is a mystery to us players at this point. Maybe ACU will feature more of it?

... none of this changes the fact that I intensely dislike him as a character, of course.

Not much of a mystery, we relived his key moments, even after death Ezio influenced. Becouse of this codex Abstergo knew about the Vatican Vault, Minerva's massage(setting certain spirits free in the process) and Desmond.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Prophet%27s_Codex

"The Prophet's Codex is a codex written by Ezio Auditore da Firenze, Mentor of the Italian Assassins, detailing some of the most important events in his life. One such event was his meeting with Minerva in the Vatican Vault, whose speech he wrote down in great detail."

wvstolzing
08-29-2014, 07:25 PM
Wanna be best friends?

I wonder whether anyone remembers 'The Church of the Anti-Carth'; it was on BioWare forums (I think), founded by people who hate Carth Onasi from KOTOR.

Maybe we could start something similar? These people would be happy to join, I guess: http://www.shamusyoung.com


"The Prophet's Codex is a codex written by Ezio Auditore da Firenze, Mentor of the Italian Assassins, detailing some of the most important events in his life. One such event was his meeting with Minerva in the Vatican Vault, whose speech he wrote down in great detail."

Ah yes, I had forgot about this. I guess what I meant was that they didn't show players anything so far from the book itself (pages, whatever).
I'd be pissed if it plays a similar role in ACU, to the one Altair's Codex played in AC2.

ze_topazio
08-29-2014, 07:29 PM
"Revelations" and "amazingly written" on the same sentence. http://i.imgur.com/sslsZQB.png

Will_Lucky
08-29-2014, 07:40 PM
We pretty much see Ezio RIGHT before Brotherhood. Sequence 13 is only a year before attacking the Vatican and Sequence 14 didn't show anything impressive or implying wisdom from Ezio--he was still dependent on his Assassin friends as much as ever.
The only thing that implies any sort of leadership or initiative is his speech in sequence 13.....and that's DLC--Ezio's most important moment is relegated to DLC.

Sequence 13 takes place in 1492, Sequence 14 actually takes place in 1499 so quite some time later, what Ezio was doing in that time frame is beyond me presumably they couldn't do anything or something that had to be dealt with ranked above Rodrigo. And I regard his interactions with Rodrigo as a sign potentially of that intelligence, bar the fact he left him alive but I think that particular point is viewed differently by others.



Doesn't really matter, like I said...I stated that his importance was exaggerated in AC II, not his skill in assassinating and his intelligence was exaggerated in ACB, not his skill at assassinating and sure, it's like you said...he may have felt subconsciously responsible to lead the assassins and thus the more exaggerated intelligence he gave himself and the dumbing down of others.

I don't think his importance in AC2 was exaggerated, regardless of how it came about he was the one responsible for assassinating every member of the Templar plot. He got training along the way as did every other Assassin in the series except perhaps Edward.




Altair never held the Apple in AC I but he had wised up in that one week than Ezio ever did in 23 years

Oh absolutely agreed, but I was referring more to his actions in the Codex and reforming the Brotherhood later on which I should have specified. I think Ezio summed up his dilemma perfectly with the Altiar 26 grandmaster of a divided order in charge of ultimate power commentory.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 07:53 PM
Sequence 13 takes place in 1492, Sequence 14 actually takes place in 1499 so quite some time later, what Ezio was doing in that time frame is beyond me presumably they couldn't do anything or something that had to be dealt with ranked above Rodrigo. And I regard his interactions with Rodrigo as a sign potentially of that intelligence, bar the fact he left him alive but I think that particular point is viewed differently by others.
Sequence 13 starts in 1497 and ends in 1498.
I explained at length why his actions against Rodrigo in Rome make no logical sense progression wise, not to mention that it was dumb to let him live so it doesn't work either way to be honest.


I don't think his importance in AC2 was exaggerated, regardless of how it came about he was the one responsible for assassinating every member of the Templar plot. He got training along the way as did every other Assassin in the series except perhaps Edward.
When the entire brotherhood decides to "guide" Ezio, when their entire focus is training Ezio, when the game tells you that ALL the Assassins for some odd reason hid the fact that they were Assassins to train him, when Machiavelli tells Ezio that he's the one--the one they were looking for all along, when the game keeps throwing at your face how important Ezio is, then yeah..i'd say the game pretty much made the whole conflict only about Ezio.
It's not the training that showed exaggeration, it's how it came about and like I said, Assassinating Templars doesn't imply intelligence when you can't make out the rest of a plan on your own "Leonard!, what good is one fire going to do?" "I wish there was a way I could use my sword while flying this thing"


Oh absolutely agreed, but I was referring more to his actions in the Codex and reforming the Brotherhood later on which I should have specified. I think Ezio summed up his dilemma perfectly with the Altiar 26 grandmaster of a divided order in charge of ultimate power commentory.
It's pretty much said that Altair got most of his inventions from the Apple but his wisdom and progression was already there ever since AC I.

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 07:54 PM
"Revelations" and "amazingly written" on the same sentence. http://i.imgur.com/sslsZQB.png
Is not as dumb as AC II and amazingly written in the same sentence.

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 09:31 PM
I love how Ezio is so modest towards altar, he truly respects him and knows that altair is better than him, no matter people calling him the chosen one!

At least he isn't arrogant like Connor! And his father haytham!

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 09:33 PM
Is not as dumb as AC II and amazingly written in the same sentence.

And that's not even close to saying 'AC3' and 'well written' in the same sentence!

king-hailz
08-29-2014, 09:36 PM
However I thought revelations was by far the best written AC to date!

Assassin_M
08-29-2014, 09:55 PM
And that's not even close to saying 'AC3' and 'well written' in the same sentence!
of course it's not even close. AC III was very well written--AC III's story problems lied in the fact that it had to wrap up Desmond's story, it focused too much on the revolution and a lot of content was cut. AC II; however, had tons of problems from poor writing to inconsistent characterization.



At least he isn't arrogant like Connor! And his father haytham!
You just can't help but feel the need to take a crap on other characters when your precious Ezio Auditore is shown to not be the "best character ever" as you had thought.

I know it's hard to accept but Ezio is just terrible.

Kakuzu745
08-29-2014, 10:31 PM
And that's not even close to saying 'AC3' and 'well written' in the same sentence!

AC3 real problem was execution...not really the way it was written which was actually better than AC2 and Brotherhood...

rprkjj
08-29-2014, 10:52 PM
of course it's not even close. AC III was very well written--AC III's story problems lied in the fact that it had to wrap up Desmond's story, it focused too much on the revolution and a lot of content was cut. AC II; however, had tons of problems from poor writing to inconsistent characterization.


You just can't help but feel the need to take a crap on other characters when your precious Ezio Auditore is shown to not be the "best character ever" as you had thought.

I know it's hard to accept but Ezio is just terrible.

I think it's more preference. A lot of people liked Ezio. You can boil characters down to as bare as they get, but a well written character is not necessarily less enjoyable. It's pretty much just preference.

mmac900
08-29-2014, 11:10 PM
Ezio was amazing, and throughout his journey he developed so much, which is why he was so memorable.

Namikaze_17
08-29-2014, 11:16 PM
Ezio was amazing, and throughout his journey he developed so much, which is why he was so memorable.

It took him THREE games to get to that point, while it took Altair, Edward, and Connor ONE game to do theirs.


And, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!

mmac900
08-29-2014, 11:33 PM
It took him THREE games to get to that point, while it took Altair, Edward, and Connor ONE game to do theirs.


And, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!

Thanks:)

I think he was already pretty wise by the end of the first game when he made that speech at the end. You also have to realise that Ezio's life was very difficult. He witnessed half of his family being executed and yet he did not fall apart, but got his revenge and fought for freedom of regular people his whole life.

SixKeys
08-29-2014, 11:36 PM
While I disagree about your assessment of Ezio's personality, I can concede it's a good theory....in theory. However, it doesn't hold water if you apply it to the other assassins. AltaÔr started AC1 thinking he was the best thing since sliced bread and was completely devoted to Al Mualim. If the Animus only showed us the person the way they imagined themselves, we would never have experienced AltaÔr's demotion. We might have witnessed the events that led up to it (kinda hard to avoid), but since he still thought of himself as the best and most skilled assassin ever, he would have retained all his skills and we wouldn't have had to earn them back. He was also convinced Al Mualim was wise and just, so his targets wouldn't have spoken back to him and made him question his loyalty.

Namikaze_17
08-30-2014, 01:16 AM
Thanks:)

I think he was already pretty wise by the end of the first game when he made that speech at the end. You also have to realise that Ezio's life was very difficult. He witnessed half of his family being executed and yet he did not fall apart, but got his revenge and fought for freedom of
regular people his whole life.

Yeah, I understand and respect what he did, I just don't think it should've been THREE games worth. And that goes for all of them as well. Altair, Edward, and Connor went through arguably worse losses then Ezio did, yet they all still understood the Creed and their place in it in ONE game while it took Ezio a whopping THREE games spaning his lifetime.

So of Course he's Memorable, I'd too like the guy I've known for a Month than a guy I've known for just a Week.

Shahkulu101
08-30-2014, 01:20 AM
Jexx had the same theory which explained why Charles Lee and the Templar's were complete asshats to baby Connor.

JustPlainQuirky
08-30-2014, 01:22 AM
Oh I would love that explanation for Charles.

He was a great character aside from that facepalm-worthy choking scene and general Connor interactions.

I think AC Charles has like a native trigger or something, lol.

Fatal-Feit
08-30-2014, 02:33 AM
Thanks:)

I think he was already pretty wise by the end of the first game when he made that speech at the end. You also have to realise that Ezio's life was very difficult. He witnessed half of his family being executed and yet he did not fall apart, but got his revenge and fought for freedom of regular people his whole life.

Far from wise. Nothing indicated wisdom until Revelations. He grew up, that's what it was.

--------

In AC2, aside from revenge, he fought only for women. Literally. I'm serious.

Brotherhood, sure.

Revelations, nope. He endangered everyone's lives.

SixKeys
08-30-2014, 02:34 AM
In AC2, aside from revenge, he fought only for women. Literally. I'm serious.

Lest we get it in our heads that women are people too...

Fatal-Feit
08-30-2014, 02:38 AM
Lest we get it in our heads that women are people too...

And their husbands weren't?

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 02:39 AM
While I disagree about your assessment of Ezio's personality, I can concede it's a good theory....in theory. However, it doesn't hold water if you apply it to the other assassins. AltaÔr started AC1 thinking he was the best thing since sliced bread and was completely devoted to Al Mualim. If the Animus only showed us the person the way they imagined themselves, we would never have experienced AltaÔr's demotion. We might have witnessed the events that led up to it (kinda hard to avoid), but since he still thought of himself as the best and most skilled assassin ever, he would have retained all his skills and we wouldn't have had to earn them back. He was also convinced Al Mualim was wise and just, so his targets wouldn't have spoken back to him and made him question his loyalty.
Didnt say it applied to everyone, perhaps it DOES apply to Altair but it lasted for a shorter amount of time--until Robert owned him and then he started wisening up slowly till the end of his game where his wisdom led to see Al-mualim's treachery.


Thanks:)

I think he was already pretty wise by the end of the first game when he made that speech at the end. You also have to realise that Ezio's life was very difficult. He witnessed half of his family being executed and yet he did not fall apart, but got his revenge and fought for freedom of regular people his whole life.
Lol, life being difficult has nothing to do with progression and logical character arc, which Ezio lacked in AC II and no, he did not get his revenge (he botched it after killing 12 men then sparing the last one) and he did not fight for freedom his whole life--His fight in AC II was for revenge, which lasted 23 years and his fight in Revelations was a personal Journey--he only fought for anyone other than himself in Brotherhood (and THAT is even debatable)


Ezio was amazing, and throughout his journey he developed so much, which is why he was so memorable.
Ezio didn't change one bit throughout AC II. He was the same playboy joker that he started out as in the beginning and it took 3 GAMES to actually change at all.


I think it's more preference. A lot of people liked Ezio. You can boil characters down to as bare as they get, but a well written character is not necessarily less enjoyable. It's pretty much just preference.
Doesn't negate the fact that Ezio was completely uninspired, inconsistent and one dimensional. Preference? sure, it's all subjective--they can prefer whatever they want, wont change the facts.

SixKeys
08-30-2014, 02:48 AM
And their husbands weren't?

I don't get your point. mmac900 said Ezio fought for regular people, you said he only fought for women, as if the two were somehow separate. Women are regular people.

Aside from that, it's not even true. In AC2 alone Ezio fought for Leonardo, Ugo's thief friends, Mario and his mercenaries and Lorenzo de Medici. Only the last one doesn't qualify as "regular people", admittedly.

Fatal-Feit
08-30-2014, 03:29 AM
I don't get your point. mmac900 said Ezio fought for regular people, you said he only fought for women, as if the two were somehow separate. Women are regular people.

Ezio didn't intend to fight for anyone. He fought for revenge, and when he did pause (and for reasons non-Assassin relevent) , it was for a woman. Like Cristina, Caterina, that one thief lady at Forli.


Aside from that, it's not even true. In AC2 alone Ezio fought for Leonardo, Ugo's thief friends, Mario and his mercenaries and Lorenzo de Medici. Only the last one doesn't qualify as "regular people", admittedly.

Leonardo was Ezio's means of decoding, upgrades, and passage to Forli. He protected Leo when he needed Leo. Ugo's thief friend was a woman. Mario and his mercenaries supported Ezio, not exactly the other way around.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 03:33 AM
Its a good theory but i dnt believe in it. I think the memories we see are exactly how they would look if it was recorded with a camera and not how ezio subjectively percieved them. Unless the memories are edited by abstergo or others they are fact and thats the way were. The memories are only subjective to us for instance i dont think think that charles lee was actually a villain at the end of ac3 weras others will think he is nor do i agree with the OP about ezio. Ezios faults are the developers faults, he isnt real. Also the reason for people like ceasere or charles lee looking evil is because the devs made these creative choices so that us "dumb" gamers would know they are meant to be the bad guys.

rickprog
08-30-2014, 04:50 AM
If this theory is correct then Ezio must have one hell of a memory, you know, to remember his father's words at birth and all...

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 04:59 AM
The memories are more like direct video recordingsof the ancestors observations than personal memory recollections otherwise the animus would be no more reliable than a personal diary or a biased history book, the animus shows the true history after all. This is just my opinion of course
@ DasoCh24 i think you have derailed the theory in one sentence well done

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 06:21 AM
@ DasoCh24 i think you have derailed the theory in one sentence well done
No, he has not and like I said over and over again, it does not apply to EVERYTHING--if it applies to Ezio's adult memories, it doesn't HAVE to apply to his baby memories (which is completely absurd anyway because babies don't have memories) and it does not HAVE to apply to EVERY second of Altair's nor Connor's lives.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 06:32 AM
It does apply, we arnt lookin at ezios subjective memories, the way he saw it is how it happened not how ezio percieved it, your theory is interesting but wrong,you are just looking too deep into it and over thinking it

Xstantin
08-30-2014, 06:48 AM
it does not HAVE to apply to EVERY second of Altair's nor Connor's lives.

Why not?

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 06:58 AM
Why not?
Because Connor's and Altair lives don't have irrational nor illogical "progression" nor "maturity" nor dumbing down of other characters.


It does apply, we arnt lookin at ezios subjective memories, the way he saw it is how it happened not how ezio percieved it, your theory is interesting but wrong,you are just looking too deep into it and over thinking it
Actually, yes..it IS how he perceived them, like I said. The animus renders memory how the the ancestor SAW it, there's nothing to suggest the opposite, which means the theory still stands, unless it's shot down with "oh no, what the animus shows is factual"

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 07:09 AM
Ya how his eyes physically saw it not how he personly sees it. there are a few arguments in this thread that have derailed your argument but i think you just wont admit defeat, the only real argument is that ac2 and acb are inconsitant and poorly written in parts

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 07:16 AM
Ya how his eyes physical saw it not how he personly sees it. there are a few arguments in this thread that have derailed your argument but i think you just wont admit defeat
His eyes is him personally, the brain does all the work and the brain can alter and change things, a memory stored in the head can be altered by the person--a lot of our memories are not 100% accurate.

And no, no argument derailed my argument so far--I am never defeated, i am your queen.

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 07:16 AM
Lol. I'm just kidding man... I know how defensive Connor and haytham fangirls can get so I'm just trying to annoy you.
I love all the assassins for different reasons! However my favorite is ezio! For personal reasons. And he was my favorite for ages before I even knew he was anyone else's favorite. Also AC2 is my favorite for many reasons too! It's not because it was technically perfect. I personally see something in that game that other won't see. I see something special in that game! That I am sure some people may see but a most don't. And I don't mind. We are all different people and we all prefer things due to our personalities.

So if I prefer one style of soundtrack, and you prefer another. You will prefer the game with your type of soundtrack! For my personal taste AC2 was done absolutely perfectly. I can't find one thing I would change! If I was the director that is EXACTLY how I would have done it. So I think you can see why AC2 and ezio are my favorites!

P.S. I take back that AC3 was badly written, your right it was written well however it was executed terribly. That is why most people didn't feel any impact in the story when you were supposed to... when AC3 was coming out I was 100% sure it would be the best and that Connor would be way better than ezio. I am not so madly in love with ezio that I won't let anyone else be better than him, like I KNOW some people are. If there is an actual character that I prefer I will prefer him over ezio.

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 07:17 AM
Lol. I'm just kidding man... I know how defensive Connor and hath am fangirls can get so I'm just trying to annoy you.
I love all the assassins for different reasons! However my favorite is ezio! For personal reasons. And he was my favorite for ages before I even knew he was anyone else's favorite. Also AC2 is my favorite for many reasons too! It's not because it was technically perfect. I personally see something in that game that other won't see. I see something special in that game! That I am sure some other people see but a few don't. And I don't mind. We are all different people and we all prefer things due to our personalities.

So if I prefer one style of soundtrack, and you prefer another. You will prefer the game with your type of soundtrack! For my personal taste AC2 was done absolutely perfect. I can't find one thing I would change! If I was the director that is EXACTLY how I would have done it. So I think you can see why AC2 and ezio are my favorites!

P.S. I take back that AC3 was badly written, your right it was written well however it was executed terribly. That is why most people didn't feel any impact in the story when you were supposed to... when AC3 was coming out I was 100% sure it would be the best and that Connor would be way better than ezio. I am not so madly in love with ezio that I won't let anyone else be better than him, like I KNOW some people are. If there is an actual character that I prefer I will prefer him over ezio.
I was kidding too, by the way...

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 07:22 AM
I was kidding too, by the way...

You may be kidding. But you obviously despise ezio.

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 07:22 AM
You may be kidding. But you obviously despise ezio.
I don't despise him, I despise the blind love--I like him in ACR:p I like him a lot in ACR.

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 07:28 AM
Well if you despise the love you must have liked what I said in that long post up there...

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 07:33 AM
Well if you despise the love you must have liked what I said in that long post up there...
BLIND love, man...Ma jimmies don' get rustled when I see Ezio love.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 07:35 AM
Thats why the commernt about ezios birth discards this theory
Ezio obviously cant remember being born but the memory exists so therefore the memories we see arent really personal recollections but more of an imprint of his experiances like a video recording. if ezio was narrating the story from memory to someone then it could be subjective

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 07:35 AM
I know that's what I was talking about.... If there is a better character than ezio that I prefer I will prefer him to ezio unlike some blind followers of him....

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 07:38 AM
But i agree people need to stop idolizing ezio, i liked him but he is gone now

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 07:44 AM
Thats why the commernt about ezios birth discards this theory
Ezio obviously cant remember being born but the memory exists so therefore the memories we see arent really personal recollections but more of an imprint of his experiances like a video recording. if ezio was narrating the story from memory to someone then it could be subjective
That memory is dumb, new born babies LITERALLY cannot encode memories..their brains are not developed enough.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 07:52 AM
Yes and people cant view their ancestors memories in an animus in real life but obviously these are both possible in the assassins creed universe. And saying something is dumb isnt much off a comeback haha

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 08:04 AM
Yes and people cant view their ancestors memories in an animus in real life but obviously these are both possible in the assassins creed universe. And saying something is dumb isnt much off a comeback haha
Animus, Pieces of Eden, Those who came before, Eagle vision..those are just plot devices and cannot be compared to something like babies not being able to encode memories. it IS dumb because AC mostly stays true to what goes on in real life--heck, they recently discovered that genetic memory could be real: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-25156510

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 08:18 AM
I am not arguing the real world facts and dont change the subject, that memory is in the game therefore it is true also there is also the part in ac2 where desmond has the bleeding effect and altair impregnates maria and when he leaves we stay with the what ever u want to call it (feutus,sp...). As weird as its and impossipple in real life, it seems to be true in ac. Boom
Also there is more fiction than truth in ac more than u think

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 08:25 AM
I am not arguing the real world facts and dont change the subject, that memory is in the game therefore it is true also there is also the part in ac2 where desmond has the bleeding effect and altair impregnates maria and when he leaves we stay with the what ever u want to call it (feutus,sp...). As weird as its and impossipple in real life, it seems to be true in ac. Boom
Also there is more fiction than truth in ac more than u think
still dumb and again, like I said, it changes nothing...so what if we saw that moment? He can still have altered later memories.........boom

Oh wow, a fictional story has more fiction than truth, so surprising. That's new to me. it's new to your queen.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 08:31 AM
Haha iv won this argument outright so i think that is all from me in this thread
but i think others will agree with my argument
DasoCh24 mentioned i before me i must add

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 08:32 AM
Haha iv won this argument outright so i think that is all from me in this thread
but i think others will agree with my argument
Sure...

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 08:58 AM
Hmm... I agree with the theory but u don't agree with everything you said about Ezio... However it is a very smart theory. No matter who you are, you always feel the world revolves around you at some point. So for every assassin it feels like that. If this is the case connors memories feel really off... because he is not shown as the centre of everything... but maybe that's because he hated himself for what happened... For some reasons so he seems himself as a normal person and nothing special. But your theory only makes sense for the earlier games... It doesn't really make sense for 3 and 4. Maybe that is due to the writing. However I doubt it was written like that intentionally because of this theory.

Edit: you can probably tell that I am still confused lol....

HypeR.tgL
08-30-2014, 09:24 AM
Wow that is one incredible theory.

Mind == blown;

Hans684
08-30-2014, 09:38 AM
Good theory but we are reliving them how they lived them, not how they remember them. As said a memory can be altered by the person but can a genetic memory be altered by the person? I don't think so. We are reliving their lives, so unless they have time travel POE to alter their lives by going back in time to change what they did, I don't see the theory likely. It's a long shoot.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 10:25 AM
Another theory is that the animus could decide if a charachtar looks evil or not, the animus generates everything we see and hear such as landscape and language from aready gathered information such as old maps, descriptions and paintings etc it could do the same with charachter models. Most actions and interactions are set in stone but it does leave room for speculation on wether what we see is
How accurate the animus thinks everything should look and sound historically
Or
How everything should look and sound based on subjective memories
Or
How it should look/sound based on exact memories

It lends to both arguments for and against the original theory
That of course all depends if my knowledge on the animus is correct

purplekurple
08-30-2014, 10:48 AM
Ezio was in his 40s during brotherhood.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 10:51 AM
Ezio was in his 40s during brotherhood.
Your point is?

jayjay275
08-30-2014, 10:54 AM
Wasn't Ezio 38 at the end of AC2?

king-hailz
08-30-2014, 10:56 AM
Good theory but we are reliving them how they lived them, not how they remember them. As said a memory can be altered by the person but can a genetic memory be altered by the person? I don't think so. We are reliving their lives, so unless they have time travel POE to alter their lives by going back in time to change what they did, I don't see the theory likely. It's a long shoot.

I agree... genetic memories can't be altered by the individual. For example. A bird learns how to catch it prey because of its ancestors genetic memory. If it parent had a broken leg and had to do it a different way, the younger bird wouldn't change the way it catches prey!

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 10:57 AM
Why does his age matter

Gin0r
08-30-2014, 02:14 PM
Hey, I thought of something similar, posted about it in another thread about a week ago, but cannot remember for the life of me which one it was... It was in answer to something about Charles Lee being characterized differently in Connor’s part of the game in comparison to Haytham’s.

Anyway, yeah, I also think the memories we view are a case of "unreliable narrator". That explains the cases of cartoon villain templars, the over the top badassery, Ezio’s James Bond level of womanizing etc.

Think about it: When you remember somebody who has wronged you, is your immediate thought "well, I guess he had perfectly reasonable motivations to do what he did" or is it "christ, what a *******" ;)

rprkjj
08-30-2014, 02:39 PM
Didnt say it applied to everyone, perhaps it DOES apply to Altair but it lasted for a shorter amount of time--until Robert owned him and then he started wisening up slowly till the end of his game where his wisdom led to see Al-mualim's treachery.


Lol, life being difficult has nothing to do with progression and logical character arc, which Ezio lacked in AC II and no, he did not get his revenge (he botched it after killing 12 men then sparing the last one) and he did not fight for freedom his whole life--His fight in AC II was for revenge, which lasted 23 years and his fight in Revelations was a personal Journey--he only fought for anyone other than himself in Brotherhood (and THAT is even debatable)


Ezio didn't change one bit throughout AC II. He was the same playboy joker that he started out as in the beginning and it took 3 GAMES to actually change at all.


Doesn't negate the fact that Ezio was completely uninspired, inconsistent and one dimensional. Preference? sure, it's all subjective--they can prefer whatever they want, wont change the facts.

Those aren't really facts. Like you said, it's preference. One person might not find him to be one dimensional, inconsistent, or uninspired.

rob1990312
08-30-2014, 10:31 PM
Hey, I thought of something similar, posted about it in another thread about a week ago, but cannot remember for the life of me which one it was... It was in answer to something about Charles Lee being characterized differently in Connor’s part of the game in comparison to Haytham’s.

Anyway, yeah, I also think the memories we view are a case of "unreliable narrator". That explains the cases of cartoon villain templars, the over the top badassery, Ezio’s James Bond level of womanizing etc.

Think about it: When you remember somebody who has wronged you, is your immediate thought "well, I guess he had perfectly reasonable motivations to do what he did" or is it "christ, what a *******" ;)
Or it could be that its a video game but thats probably too wild a theory

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 10:42 PM
Those aren't really facts. Like you said, it's preference. One person might not find him to be one dimensional, inconsistent, or uninspired.
They are when provided with evidence as I have explained numerous times. Ezio has no internal struggle from AC II till Brotherhood, his character does not progress, his motivation does not progress much and his character arc is very faulty. Hey, people say that about Connor all the time, that he's poorly written...etc, I don't think that's true and I provide evidence why. You can prefer a character but it doesnt necessarily mean that he's not inconsistent because he IS inconsistent and uninspired...Ezio is LITERALLY a homage to the old James Bond characters--a suave, charismatic Assassin. There's just no other way around that when the character is a copy and paste from the James bond archetype.

wvstolzing
08-30-2014, 10:47 PM
I hope one day we get an Assassin who's a homage to Tommy Vercetti.

RinoTheBouncer
08-30-2014, 11:09 PM
I really like your theory. I mean itís well-thought and could be real if the Animus was real or if the writers put that much thought into it. I mean everyone including you, knows how much I love Ezio and his games, but the idea that the Animus shows you history from perspective of the Assassinís point of view makes a lot of sense. A lot of time, we get to feel a certain way about a certain person, place or time and that feeling or idea always colors that memory whenever we go back to it. Sometimes we hate a place because we got a text that broke our heart so much or we love a certain food or restaurant so much because thatís where we met the love of our life.

So I guess itís only natural that the way we remember things also effects how the memory appears, even though weíre never told that this is the case and the Animus could be just a device that views the memory visually from the Assassinís perspective and nothing more. So we become the Assassin and we see and hear what he heard and saw, but we werenít told that how we remember things has no effect, either and we donít know by what means the synchronization system works. I mean we have an open world to explore as the Assassin remembers this whole city, but we donít know how the speech was done. Did we speak every sentence exactly how they spoke them? were they the same context/meaning but different words? or did Desmond just freeze while the Animus did the job and played the speech like a cutscene in the game? we donít know that just as much as we donít know if this great theory is valid or not.

So I personally choose to believe it, even though I feel like the case with AC games, their links and what we analyze from the ďhintsĒ and the various loose ends are more like what some fans of Lady Gaga do when they see her. She walks in a certain way and they say ďGaga did that pose which resembles that statue of Venus, so the next single is probably VenusĒ while in reality, she did not intend any of that. So this could be the case here that we make smart theories out of the loose ends and the creative thinking of ours when the developers couldnít have thought that far.

But again, I love your theory and it makes a lot of sense.

rprkjj
08-30-2014, 11:17 PM
They are when provided with evidence as I have explained numerous times. Ezio has no internal struggle from AC II till Brotherhood, his character does not progress, his motivation does not progress much and his character arc is very faulty. Hey, people say that about Connor all the time, that he's poorly written...etc, I don't think that's true and I provide evidence why. You can prefer a character but it doesnt necessarily mean that he's not inconsistent because he IS inconsistent and uninspired...Ezio is LITERALLY a homage to the old James Bond characters--a suave, charismatic Assassin. There's just no other way around that when the character is a copy and paste from the James bond archetype.

But the evidence you give is more evidence for why he's uninspired to you then it is evidence actually proving he's an objectively one dimensional, inconsistent, or uninspired character. Even if someone did think that about Ezio, it might not even affect their opinion of him. Subjective is subjective.

Assassin_M
08-30-2014, 11:39 PM
But the evidence you give is more evidence for why he's uninspired to you then it is evidence actually proving he's an objectively one dimensional, inconsistent, or uninspired character. Even if someone did think that about Ezio, it might not even affect their opinion of him. Subjective is subjective.
Oh well, you can also say that the evidence for the wetness of water is only evidence to me and someone may still think water is not wet. It doesn't matter what their opinion about him is, Ezio has nothing special about personality--he's a copy paste of James Bond leads--I already explained Ezio's inconsistency and him being one dimensional falls in the same line with progression and character arc, which was one dimensional...he never changed until his last game, he never showed any internal conflict until the last game--you can't disagree with that unless you make stuff up.


I really like your theory. I mean itís well-thought and could be real if the Animus was real or if the writers put that much thought into it. I mean everyone including you, knows how much I love Ezio and his games, but the idea that the Animus shows you history from perspective of the Assassinís point of view makes a lot of sense. A lot of time, we get to feel a certain way about a certain person, place or time and that feeling or idea always colors that memory whenever we go back to it. Sometimes we hate a place because we got a text that broke our heart so much or we love a certain food or restaurant so much because thatís where we met the love of our life.

So I guess itís only natural that the way we remember things also effects how the memory appears, even though weíre never told that this is the case and the Animus could be just a device that views the memory visually from the Assassinís perspective and nothing more. So we become the Assassin and we see and hear what he heard and saw, but we werenít told that how we remember things has no effect, either and we donít know by what means the synchronization system works. I mean we have an open world to explore as the Assassin remembers this whole city, but we donít know how the speech was done. Did we speak every sentence exactly how they spoke them? were they the same context/meaning but different words? or did Desmond just freeze while the Animus did the job and played the speech like a cutscene in the game? we donít know that just as much as we donít know if this great theory is valid or not.

So I personally choose to believe it, even though I feel like the case with AC games, their links and what we analyze from the ďhintsĒ and the various loose ends are more like what some fans of Lady Gaga do when they see her. She walks in a certain way and they say ďGaga did that pose which resembles that statue of Venus, so the next single is probably VenusĒ while in reality, she did not intend any of that. So this could be the case here that we make smart theories out of the loose ends and the creative thinking of ours when the developers couldnít have thought that far.

But again, I love your theory and it makes a lot of sense.
you're most likely correct, that the writers most likely did not think that far ahead nor was that their intention. I was really just trying to explain the dumbing down of historical characters and taking their special qualities and giving them to Ezio.

Namikaze_17
08-31-2014, 12:04 AM
you're most likely correct, that the writers most likely did not think that far ahead nor was that their intention. I was really just trying to explain the dumbing down of historical characters and taking their special qualities and giving them to Ezio.

^ This... Where was the Ceasre that could've the best opponent for Ezio? Someone that had more money, power, and Overall genius than him? But at the same time, very justifiable in what he believed in. THAT was the type of man Machaiavelii admired and respected. And not to mention they dumbed him down like hell to make Ezio look like a genius that always had a plan and answer to EVERYTHING.

But that's why Revelations Ezio is my personal fav. He was actually Human that made some mistakes, and actually made a change in his character.

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 12:15 AM
Oh well, you can also say that the evidence for the wetness of water is only evidence to me and someone may still think water is not wet. It doesn't matter what their opinion about him is, Ezio has nothing special about personality--he's a copy paste of James Bond leads--I already explained Ezio's inconsistency and him being one dimensional falls in the same line with progression and character arc, which was one dimensional...he never changed until his last game, he never showed any internal conflict until the last game--you can't disagree with that unless you make stuff up.

Observations aren't subjective, but art in the form of story and characters can be received any way. What is uninspired, one dimensional, or inconsistent to one person is not necessarily that way to another. Subjective.

Fatal-Feit
08-31-2014, 12:16 AM
But that's why Revelations Ezio is my personal fav. He was actually Human that made some mistakes, and actually made a change in his character.

In Darby, we love. :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 12:19 AM
Observations aren't subjective, but art in the form of story and characters can be received any way. What is uninspired, one dimensional, or inconsistent to one person is not necessarily that way to another. Subjective.
Copy-paste from another lead = uninspired.
No internal conflict, no tests for character and no progression = one dimensional
Faulty character arc = inconsistent

I don't see how this is subjective.

Fatal-Feit
08-31-2014, 12:30 AM
Water is purple, the sky is brown.

It's all subjective, guys.

Xstantin
08-31-2014, 12:41 AM
Copy-paste from another lead = uninspired.
No internal conflict, no tests for character and no progression = one dimensional
Faulty character arc = inconsistent

I don't see how this is subjective.

I'm not even a big Ezio fan, but if you start tearing things apart A) everything is a copy paste, and it's ok cause Shakespeare did it first B) there is always a test and progression if you dig deep enough C) inconsistent character arc arguably makes a character more human yada tada creative nonsense

Namikaze_17
08-31-2014, 12:51 AM
And the war Continues as Ubi is laughing at us...

Doing this:
http://i.giftrunk.com/jzxmvb.gif

BATISTABUS
08-31-2014, 12:58 AM
Works for me.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 01:08 AM
I'm not even a big Ezio fan, but if you start tearing things apart A) everything is a copy paste, and it's ok cause Shakespeare did it first
Didn't say it wasn't okay..just said that it was uninspired, which it is.


B) there is always a test and progression if you dig deep enough
Deeper than 100 replays of AC II, ACB and ACR?


C) inconsistent character arc arguably makes a character more human yada tada creative nonsense
It's really just faulty writing when there's nothing to imply that the character is meant to be human if the writers themselves did not intend to write a real character.

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 01:10 AM
Copy-paste from another lead = uninspired.
No internal conflict, no tests for character and no progression = one dimensional
Faulty character arc = inconsistent

I don't see how this is subjective.

Basically what Kevt said.

Copy-paste from another lead (debatable) = uninspired to you.
No internal conflict, no tests for the character (debatable) = one dimensional to you.
Faulty character arc (debatable) = inconsistent to you.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 01:14 AM
Copy-paste from another lead (debatable) = uninspired to you.
No internal conflict, no tests for the character (debatable) = one dimensional to you.
Faulty character arc (debatable) = inconsistent to you.
I don't neither see how it's debatable nor how it's JUST to me. So the sky is only blue to me if someone else says it's green?

Xstantin
08-31-2014, 01:20 AM
In this particular situation you're arguing about absolutes which is not the best thing when it comes to fiction tbh. Heck, if people followed your logic modernist writing should be pretty much out of the window cause you know a lot of times it tries to prove that sky is green and all that.

Namikaze_17
08-31-2014, 01:20 AM
That's the main problem with Ezio...he's pretty much perfect.

I don't relate to perfect Characters...that why superman isn't my favorite superhero, or Sora from KH is my favorite character because they, like Ezio, are Mary Sue's. Hell, even the guy in my Avatar and signature is one as well.

So with all that Ezio has just as much realism to his character as this guy:


http://a3.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTIwNjA4NjMzNzAzNzI4NjUy.jpg

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 01:35 AM
In this particular situation you're arguing about absolutes which is not the best thing when it comes to fiction tbh. Heck, if people followed your logic modernist writing should be pretty much out of the window cause you know a lot of times it tries to prove that sky is green and all that.
Okay, how about if it's an average, B-story, medium of fiction? ca I argue about absolutes then?

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 01:39 AM
I don't neither see how it's debatable nor how it's JUST to me. So the sky is only blue to me if someone else says it's green?

It observable that the sky is blue. But story can be interpreted in pretty much any way. Ezio can be interpreted as uninspired, but he can also be interpreted to not be uninspired.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 01:41 AM
It observable that the sky is blue. But story can be interpreted in pretty much any way. Ezio can be interpreted as uninspired, but he can also be interpreted to not be uninspired.
How so?

Xstantin
08-31-2014, 01:41 AM
Okay, how about if it's an average, B-story, medium of fiction? ca I argue about absolutes then?

Of course you can. Ezio is awful :)

SixKeys
08-31-2014, 01:47 AM
Copy-paste from another lead = uninspired.
No internal conflict, no tests for character and no progression = one dimensional
Faulty character arc = inconsistent

I don't see how this is subjective.

Well, for one thing at least one of your points is flat-out incorrect.

Ezio had internal conflict at the end of AC2 when he hesitated to kill Rodrigo. You can argue about bad writing all day long, but it's a FACT that he experienced internal conflict then, so one of your points is already moot.
"Copy-paste of James Bond leads" is an iffy statement as well, considering James Bond's character changes with each actor. Timothy Dalton's Bond was grim and serious, Roger Moore's was a charming joker. You obviously want to compare Ezio to some kind of archetype, but haven't clearly defined what that archetype is and hence can't make factual claims about him being a copy-paste.

If you still think your point of view is objective instead of subjective after you've been presented with facts, well, I don't know what else to tell you.

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 02:12 AM
How so?

Those words have definitions, but they aren't specific enough to perfectly define any element of something as subjective as personality, even the personality of a fictional character. Especially not specific enough to warrant a label like "terrible." The only thing you have to base that off is comparisons, but personality shouldn't be uniform or constricted in that way. Even then, whatever you're comparing it to might be better or worse than whatever you might compare THAT thing to. That's inevitable considering there's no gold standard of character, because not every possible personality trait is 100% attractive to every person. Because it's subjective.

ze_topazio
08-31-2014, 04:31 AM
Well, for one thing at least one of your points is flat-out incorrect.

Ezio had internal conflict at the end of AC2 when he hesitated to kill Rodrigo. You can argue about bad writing all day long, but it's a FACT that he experienced internal conflict then, so one of your points is already moot.
"Copy-paste of James Bond leads" is an iffy statement as well, considering James Bond's character changes with each actor. Timothy Dalton's Bond was grim and serious, Roger Moore's was a charming joker. You obviously want to compare Ezio to some kind of archetype, but haven't clearly defined what that archetype is and hence can't make factual claims about him being a copy-paste.

If you still think your point of view is objective instead of subjective after you've been presented with facts, well, I don't know what else to tell you.

There's also that moment he shared with Rosa, I don't even remember the exact content of the conversation but Ezio was having doubts of some kind.

Shahkulu101
08-31-2014, 04:41 AM
There's also that moment he shared with Rosa, I don't even remember the exact content of the conversation but Ezio was having doubts of some kind.

"It's me birthday Rosa, and I ain't even 'appy. A killed all these plonkers and for what?"

That bit?

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 04:45 AM
There's also that moment he shared with Rosa, I don't even remember the exact content of the conversation but Ezio was having doubts of some kind.
"it's my birthday"
"it's been 10 years since I watched my father and brothers die...ten years hunting the men responsible...i'm so close to the end now but....no closer to knowing what any of it was for"

Conflict?


Those words have definitions, but they aren't specific enough to perfectly define any element of something as subjective as personality, even the personality of a fictional character. Especially not specific enough to warrant a label like "terrible." The only thing you have to base that off is comparisons, but personality shouldn't be uniform or constricted in that way. Even then, whatever you're comparing it to might be better or worse than whatever you might compare THAT thing to. That's inevitable considering there's no gold standard of character, because not every possible personality trait is 100% attractive to every person. Because it's subjective.
We're talking about preference then, which is of course subjective.


Well, for one thing at least one of your points is flat-out incorrect.


Ezio had internal conflict at the end of AC2 when he hesitated to kill Rodrigo. You can argue about bad writing all day long, but it's a FACT that he experienced internal conflict then, so one of your points is already moot.
Okay, When did Ezio hesitate to kill Rodrigo? explain to me the internal conflict that Ezio had (why did he hesitate), how it was demonstrated and how you came to think that it was an internal conflict please.........or just tell me when did he hesitate and i'll concede to the point, man...that was a lot for you to explain.


"Copy-paste of James Bond leads" is an iffy statement as well, considering James Bond's character changes with each actor. Timothy Dalton's Bond was grim and serious, Roger Moore's was a charming joker. You obviously want to compare Ezio to some kind of archetype, but haven't clearly defined what that archetype is and hence can't make factual claims about him being a copy-paste.
Most people would say that James Bond is synonymous with Roger Moore's rendition more, as Ubisoft themselves have described Haytham as an evil James Bond.


If you still think your point of view is objective instead of subjective after you've been presented with facts, well, I don't know what else to tell you.
I always think my point of view objective, sixkeys, what are you talking about?


Of course you can. Ezio is awful :)
Ah

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 07:44 AM
"it's my birthday"
"it's been 10 years since I watched my father and brothers die...ten years hunting the men responsible...i'm so close to the end now but....no closer to knowing what any of it was for"

Conflict?


We're talking about preference then, which is of course subjective.




Okay, When did Ezio hesitate to kill Rodrigo? explain to me the internal conflict that Ezio had (why did he hesitate), how it was demonstrated and how you came to think that it was an internal conflict please.........or just tell me when did he hesitate and i'll concede to the point, man...that was a lot for you to explain.


Most people would say that James Bond is synonymous with Roger Moore's rendition more, as Ubisoft themselves have described Haytham as an evil James Bond.


I always think my point of view objective, sixkeys, what are you talking about?


Ah

Preference as well as interpretation is subjective. As for Ezio's inner conflict, I saw the ending as more of a resolution than directly expressing that conflict. Resolution is still evidence of an inner conflict though. Up until that point, Ezio had been mostly about revenge.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 07:48 AM
Preference as well as interpretation is subjective.
So....someone can say that Ezio had internal conflict in AC II, when he did not?

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 07:56 AM
So....someone can say that Ezio had internal conflict in AC II, when he did not?

No, someone can say that when he did. To them.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 08:05 AM
No, someone can say that when he did. To them.
But he didn't...there's no to them or to me, he either showed internal conflict or he did not, there's no way around it.

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 08:10 AM
But he didn't...there's no to them or to me, he either showed internal conflict or he did not, there's no way around it.

There is a to you or to me, because people interpret things differently. Seriously, I'm trying not to go in circles here, but that's about as base as I can put it.

RinoTheBouncer
08-31-2014, 10:40 AM
you're most likely correct, that the writers most likely did not think that far ahead nor was that their intention. I was really just trying to explain the dumbing down of historical characters and taking their special qualities and giving them to Ezio.

Yeah, and the theory makes sense in this case. Since the Animus is used as a way to justify a lot of things that happen in the game from being unable to swim in AC1, to the translation of languages to English..etc. this could be another explanation as well. Most Hollywood movies like to do this ďdumbing downĒ thing to everyone from the police to politicians to the army and the president all in favor of showing the great role of a hero/heroine in a movie. I donít see it as a very negative thing but itís not a very positive one, either.

ze_topazio
08-31-2014, 12:36 PM
"it's my birthday"
"it's been 10 years since I watched my father and brothers die...ten years hunting the men responsible...i'm so close to the end now but....no closer to knowing what any of it was for"

Conflict?

In the beginning of the game he wouldn't question "what any of it was for", he was taking revenge and cleaning his family name, but as the story progress he got more in to the Assassin's creed and started working more for the brotherhood and justice than for the revenge, that moment was when he was in middle of the transition.

I think AC2 just like AC1 is a lot more crude in their presentation, the animus is showing us key moments of the ancestors lives as they observed, no monologues, no major conversations in moments of peace, nothing, only what matters for Desmond, we are supposed to see the evolution in the case of AC1 by the conversations Altair has with others, in the case of Ezio for his actions and how he speaks of what he's doing.
In the beginning it was only revenge, as the story progressed it became more because they were Templars, even that final moment with Rodrigo, when he air assassinates him, for a moment he was overwhelmed by his old revenge sentiments, when he claims "I thought I was beyond this", it shows that for a while revenge was no longer his main purpose, when Rodrigo proved to be alive, Ezio had time to cool his head and he return to the Assassin mission, in the end he spared him to prove a point to Rodrigo and himself, which proved to be a mistake.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 07:09 PM
In the beginning of the game he wouldn't question "what any of it was for", he was taking revenge and cleaning his family name, but as the story progress he got more in to the Assassin's creed and started working more for the brotherhood and justice than for the revenge, that moment was when he was in middle of the transition.
Nothing suggests that he was doing these things for the Assassins Creed. He doesn't know what the murder of his father and brothers was for, it was just a convenient set-up to what's going to happen next "Oh Rodrigo did all of that to find the find the vault, okay" Mario already explained in the beginning why Rodrigo murdered his father and it made sense, why is he wondering again?

He himself says that for the past 10 years, he was hunting the men responsible for the death of his father and brothers so I don't know how you concluded that he was working for Justice and the Brotherhood when he himself says that he has been hunting them for the death of his father and brothers and then Rosa tells him that it's better in Venice because of the things he's done. I don't think it's a conflict--an internal conflict is when someone struggles with a mental obstacle...Ezio has no obstacle in his head whatsoever, i think at that point...he's just been killing for 10 years now and he's like "oh gee, I wonder why they killed my father and brothers" really? after 10 years, you're wondering now?


I think AC2 just like AC1 is a lot more crude in their presentation, the animus is showing us key moments of the ancestors lives as they observed, no monologues, no major conversations in moments of peace, nothing, only what matters for Desmond, we are supposed to see the evolution in the case of AC1 by the conversations Altair has with others, in the case of Ezio for his actions and how he speaks of what he's doing.
That would be awesome but I didn't see it, to be honest. The conversation with Rosa seemed like a set up for the news to come next, rather than anything as deep as a transitional period.


In the beginning it was only revenge, as the story progressed it became more because they were Templars, even that final moment with Rodrigo, when he air assassinates him, for a moment he was overwhelmed by his old revenge sentiments, when he claims "I thought I was beyond this", it shows that for a while revenge was no longer his main purpose, when Rodrigo proved to be alive, Ezio had time to cool his head and he return to the Assassin mission, in the end he spared him to prove a point to Rodrigo and himself, which proved to be a mistake.
Ahhhh, now it's starting to get good. I think when Ezio says that he was beyond this, he was more referring to his years as an official Assassin from 1488 and on wards, not before and I could concede to the point of Ezio feeling his thirst revenge overtaking then his head cooling down, which results in him sparing Rodrigo--which also means that he used his emotions instead of his duty as an Assassin to finish his mission, which would then explain why in Brotherhood he made the same decision he made 23 years ago when he thought his battles were after killing Uberto.


Yeah, and the theory makes sense in this case. Since the Animus is used as a way to justify a lot of things that happen in the game from being unable to swim in AC1, to the translation of languages to English..etc. this could be another explanation as well. Most Hollywood movies like to do this “dumbing down” thing to everyone from the police to politicians to the army and the president all in favor of showing the great role of a hero/heroine in a movie. I don’t see it as a very negative thing but it’s not a very positive one, either.
Agreed. It's why I really thought that ACB butchered it with characterization. AC Is better than Hollywood


There is a to you or to me, because people interpret things differently. Seriously, I'm trying not to go in circles here, but that's about as base as I can put it.
Well, you failed and went in circles.

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 07:35 PM
Nothing suggests that he was doing these things for the Assassins Creed. He doesn't know what the murder of his father and brothers was for, it was just a convenient set-up to what's going to happen next "Oh Rodrigo did all of that to find the find the vault, okay" Mario already explained in the beginning why Rodrigo murdered his father and it made sense, why is he wondering again?

He himself says that for the past 10 years, he was hunting the men responsible for the death of his father and brothers so I don't know how you concluded that he was working for Justice and the Brotherhood when he himself says that he has been hunting them for the death of his father and brothers and then Rosa tells him that it's better in Venice because of the things he's done. I don't think it's a conflict--an internal conflict is when someone struggles with a mental obstacle...Ezio has no obstacle in his head whatsoever, i think at that point...he's just been killing for 10 years now and he's like "oh gee, I wonder why they killed my father and brothers" really? after 10 years, you're wondering now?


That would be awesome but I didn't see it, to be honest. The conversation with Rosa seemed like a set up for the news to come next, rather than anything as deep as a transitional period.


Ahhhh, now it's starting to get good. I think when Ezio says that he was beyond this, he was more referring to his years as an official Assassin from 1488 and on wards, not before and I could concede to the point of Ezio feeling his thirst revenge overtaking then his head cooling down, which results in him sparing Rodrigo--which also means that he used his emotions instead of his duty as an Assassin to finish his mission, which would then explain why in Brotherhood he made the same decision he made 23 years ago when he thought his battles were after killing Uberto.


Agreed. It's why I really thought that ACB butchered it with characterization. AC Is better than Hollywood


Well, you failed and went in circles.

Sorry, but I can't help it when you don't understand something that simple.

Assassin_M
08-31-2014, 07:37 PM
Sorry, but I can't help it when you don't understand something that simple.
are you calling me an idiot?

I understood what you meant, man..nothing wrong with a bit of playful dragging

rprkjj
08-31-2014, 07:49 PM
are you calling me an idiot?

I understood what you meant, man..nothing wrong with a bit of playful dragging

Heh, nah.

I get ya man, no harm done.