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View Full Version : Re-learning to dogfight...........



Jumoschwanz
07-16-2004, 09:15 PM
In late 2001 and early 2002 when I first started hanging out on Hyperlobby, I spent most of my time on servers that were set up as Full Real with Padlock. There were quit a few of them back then. At first I just used the numberpad to look around, that was a b1tch. When I first tried padlock it was hard to get used to, but once I got the hang of it it was a great tool for keeping my eye on an opponent in a one on one dogfight. I developed my style around this and was as good as most at it.

Once track IR came out most servers dropped the padlock option and I was out of luck. I tried track IR, yes with all the latest drivers and updates and never liked it as much as others seemed to. So I just quit dogfighting. I went to the zoom and boom style and stayed out of one on one contests unless it was absolutely neccessary.

But I miss dogfighting like hell. Now and then I can find a cockpit on, padlock server like I learned on and I have a blast. With padlock limited to 3k it is not so useful as a "padlook" as it was in the old days. I would still like to see it limited to 1k or have it's range settable by the server, then it would be what it should be, merely another utility for turning your virtual head, like the hat switch or track IR, or god knows what these kids are using now days.

As for me, I have been trying to learn a combination of hat switch and stick buttons that will let me dogfight somewhat as I used to with padlock. But it is tough. I regularly get my *** kicked in one on ones these days. I still have fun, but I think I bore a lot of opponents to death with my newbie-like dogfighting ability.

It is really tough for me to fly and manipulate the hat-swithch and buttons at the same time. I don't enjoy the work, but I enjoy the game so much I will stick with it and hopfully improve some. Thanks for your time and listening to my rants and ramblings,

Jumoschwanz

Jumoschwanz
07-16-2004, 09:15 PM
In late 2001 and early 2002 when I first started hanging out on Hyperlobby, I spent most of my time on servers that were set up as Full Real with Padlock. There were quit a few of them back then. At first I just used the numberpad to look around, that was a b1tch. When I first tried padlock it was hard to get used to, but once I got the hang of it it was a great tool for keeping my eye on an opponent in a one on one dogfight. I developed my style around this and was as good as most at it.

Once track IR came out most servers dropped the padlock option and I was out of luck. I tried track IR, yes with all the latest drivers and updates and never liked it as much as others seemed to. So I just quit dogfighting. I went to the zoom and boom style and stayed out of one on one contests unless it was absolutely neccessary.

But I miss dogfighting like hell. Now and then I can find a cockpit on, padlock server like I learned on and I have a blast. With padlock limited to 3k it is not so useful as a "padlook" as it was in the old days. I would still like to see it limited to 1k or have it's range settable by the server, then it would be what it should be, merely another utility for turning your virtual head, like the hat switch or track IR, or god knows what these kids are using now days.

As for me, I have been trying to learn a combination of hat switch and stick buttons that will let me dogfight somewhat as I used to with padlock. But it is tough. I regularly get my *** kicked in one on ones these days. I still have fun, but I think I bore a lot of opponents to death with my newbie-like dogfighting ability.

It is really tough for me to fly and manipulate the hat-swithch and buttons at the same time. I don't enjoy the work, but I enjoy the game so much I will stick with it and hopfully improve some. Thanks for your time and listening to my rants and ramblings,

Jumoschwanz

BM357_Raven
07-16-2004, 11:36 PM
you know something. if anyone had problems and was turned off by TrackIR it was me. Any problem you can think of-- I had it.

Then one day, one of my buddies who had it, gave me some hints and emailed me his profile, and I gave it another shot. IT WAS WORTH IT.. For me in the end, it changed the face of simming forever.

That being said, I can completely relate to putting it on the shelf. I owned it for almost six months before I gave it a second shot.

The preferred system, FOR ME, if TrackIR didnt exist, is mouse-look.

It takes 4-6 weeks to master. It has drawbacks too, though. The biggy is that your left hand is on the mouse 90% of the time.

But for ages, before our squad become full proficient in IL2, my teammates would use the hat switch against me in with the mouse, and when we'd get in tight battles, I'd out-fly 'em all and still make it home.

Slowly-but-surely, one-by-one, they all learned the mouse-trick and things became much more disappointing for me.

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take from it what you will...

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BM357_Raven
07-16-2004, 11:39 PM
Also, I mean not now, cause I'm outta practice, but I used to be able to out-fly most TrackIR pilots I came across with the mouse-trick.

Kind of an arogant thing to say, dont you think? Man whata prk.

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Tully__
07-17-2004, 12:32 AM
Have a look at NewView (http://www.sh.zp.ua/il2/il2.html) and JoyToKey (http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA016823/joytokey/english.html)

They're two little utilities that allow some form of mouse emulation on a hat switch. Many have found one or the other helpful when TrackIR isn't suitable or isn't economically feasible.

=================================================


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Salut
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Chivas
07-17-2004, 12:44 AM
I hear ya Jumo. A friend is using my Track IR ... got tired of turning my head and while keeping my eyes straight ahead. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I also agree with changing the padlock to 1K or even 500 meters.

Salute

georgeo76
07-17-2004, 12:55 AM
I know where youā're coming from. I figured that PL would make a comeback when it got limited to 3K, but it hasnā't happened. I honestly donā't know how someone could get by w/ a hat switch, itā's a big disadvantage. I started playing w/ pan view and PL. I found it hobbling to join a server w/o PL. I couldnā't afford TIR, but I did get an X-45.

I donā't know what kind of joystick you use, but an X-45 would help you w/ your view problems, even if you just use the throttle. The throttle has a hat switch (w/ built in mouse emulation) for your left thumb. Iā've never tried TIR, but I doubt that itā's more effective than the mouse hat on the X-45.

Dnmy
07-17-2004, 04:18 AM
To me it's completely logical that you'd be hardpressed to find a FR padlock server nowadays. FB's already crippled padlock got even more crippled with the range reduction. As a result less and less people would use it anyhow. I mean why would you want to use something that's becoming ever more useless? To me, FB's padlock is one of the worst in the business. I'd be using it if it were something i could work with. As it stands now i'm much better off using other methods than the built in padlock.

The purpose of padlock in a sim is to allow the player to view in a natural handsfree kind of way. But if you cut down on the padlock range you will cut down on padlock's effectiveness automatically. Reduce the range even further to e.g. 500 m. and you will be using the hatswitch a lot more then actually using padlock. Which in turn totally defeats the purpose of padlock.

People use all kinds of third party software/hardware to bypass FB's built in view system because the built in just doesn't cut it for them.

So cutting down on that padlock range will only have an adverse effect. The padlock users should be rallying to have a good working padlock instead. With e.g. a padlock range of 10km. Then you'd see a lot more padlock use.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Jumoschwanz
07-17-2004, 05:37 AM
I have the same MS Precision 2 I have been using since sometime in 2001. I have button seven on the base set for straight up. This, along with the hat switch lets me go to any view angle without taking my hands off the stick. Works well for me.
And Chivas(good to hear fromone of the old guard), yes that is my number one problem with track IR, it is unnatural, awkward, and stupid to me, to turn your head away from the monitor/what you want to see, everytime you want to see something!
IF padlock is used as a utility solely to keep your eyes on an opponent during a one on one encounter, then it is surely not hobbled by a range reduction to one kilometer. ONe of the big and valid arguments against padlock is its use to locate aerial and ground targets. This is not a realistic use of it. I don't have any problem spotting things in the sim running 1200x1600 perfect mode.
But there is an art to using padlock that once learned makes it a beautiful utility for turning your pretty little virtual head. For instance; looking at and approaching a furball, you learn to be able to lock onto any opponent you choose by adjusting the attitude of the plane so the cockpit bars mask out what you do not want to lock onto, similiar to how you use the cockpit parts to mask out part of the sun when an opponent is trying to hide in it.

I will keep on using my hatswitch and getting my a$$ kicked. This is okay for me because I still have a blast. Getting shot down is not as much of a downer as it was a few years ago. JUst think of the joy and practice my virtual death gives to all! Bring it on........

Jumoschwanz

Dnmy
07-17-2004, 07:24 AM
Padlock is not limited in use for sole 1 on 1 fights.

The most important point to remember is that padlock is supposed to allow the virtual pilot a handsfree natural way of tracking instead of fumbling with hatswitch or mouse.

Whether that be in a furball or in a 1 on 1. Handsfree tracking has been the purpose of padlock ever since the day it was invented (falcon3). But obviously it's become more and more obsolete now with trackIR, which provides true handsfree tracking.

And a max. 1km padlock range doesn't even make sense. It's like telling a pilot he is not allowed to track aircraft outside 1km range but only aircraft within 1km range. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif
Aircraft at 1.1km. he'd have to track using the hatswitch/mouse. Not only is that ridiculous, but what good is padlock then if you're using the hatswitch most of the time anyway? You'd be better off using just the hatswitch, saves you a lot of padlock button presses anyway for that short duration of time you'd actually be able to use padlock.

No, if i were to use a good padlock i would want it to padlock dots out to 10 km. and further, i'd never want it to lose track behind a cockpit obstruction and certainly not lose track on bandits behind the wingline near the tail. It should only lose track in the clouds.

So it's beyond me why padlock users willingly desire to cripple their own padlock even further by reducing the range even more.

And the argument of radar padlock, has become invalid for me. Reducing padlock range is throwing away the baby with the bathwater. Besides, the radar feature wouldn't even be an issue at all if the mid range visuals were a lot better than they are now. It's not the radar padlock that's the issue, it's the bad mid range graphics. That's why carefully configured icons in combination with padlock would present a much better compromise.

With a good padlock nobody would even have to even learn the highly unrealistic fumbling with hatswitch or mouse. They'd just have to have some padlock buttons. That's how i see it anyway.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Jettexas
07-17-2004, 07:44 AM
If your not digging the Tir, I can recommend the NewView program already suggested to you by a previous poster, its free, the setup is ugly but not that difficult and it works realtively well in that you can drag opponents in to scissors with some hope of keeping tracking/SA long enough to get the flyby.
I use it in conjunction with Nostromos N50/n52 speed pad (30$) and have the hat pan mapped to the thumbpad on this device (left hand) this leaves the stick free to fly the plane and pull the trigger.(using the hat alone I found it difficult to look one way and turn the A/c in another and left handed mouse look is counterintuitive at least to me.)

S!
Jett

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charshep
07-17-2004, 12:16 PM
Jumo, I was in your boat for a long time, as you know. We used to fly together on Aviar's server all the time. I bought TIR also but I never made the transition that a lot of other people have managed. For me NewView was the key to breaking the PL habit. After about a week I was where I was with PL and now I wouldn't use PL even if it was available. So, I'm enjoying flying and dogfighting more now than ever. Stick with it!

Fred_77
07-17-2004, 01:23 PM
I have to agree with the above posters, go with NewView. It was a pain to get set-up as the instructions and interface were all in Russian, but I think there is an English version out now. Once you get it working you will find it better then FB's crappy PL. I only use 1 button for return to center, so it frees up more buttons then when using PL. NewView is just as good as having a TIR. Cheaper too!

S!
Fred.

von_Albert
07-17-2004, 01:40 PM
I don't know if you've ever tried it, but I use the mouse to look around while flying. I have my stick in the right hand, and mouse in the left. It takes about an hour or so to get used to, but then it very quickly becomes second nature. I mapped the mouse wheel for throttle control and then set the right mouse button to cycle through the 3 preset zoom views. I made the left mouse button the brakes for better control while taxiing. If I'm acting as a gunner, obviously the mouse still works great to aim, but I had to map a key on the keyboard to fire them. Overall, it works much better than padlock and lets you quickly track multiple targets, or take a quick glimpse to the back or the front while keeping an eye on your target.

I still keep the hat switch on my stick (a microsoft FFB 2) mapped for looking around as well, but only use it for quickly centering the view again by tapping it in any random direction, or I'll also use it for looking around while the map is open so I can look for landmarks while navigating. The throttle on my stick now controls prop pitch.

For a while I considered buying track IR, but I just can't see how it would help, because I have complete control over looking around and true HOTAS control of the aircaft. I can't see buying a throttle for the same reason. It has the same functionality as the mouse wheel except I would lose the ability to look around unless I then purchesed track IR.

As a side benefit of this setup, I don't need to use the numberpad on the keyboard at all anymore, and have mapped the number pad for quickly jumping to any position in a bomber. It took me a long time to work it all out (it could probably still be improved) but I have literally every function in the game logically, for me, mapped to the keyboard and am all set even if we ever get 8 engined aircraft. I'm very happy with my current settings and I think they also allow for somebody on a budget to compete with the most advanced control setups that some people have. You just have to spend that hour or so training your left hand and get used to using the mouse.

HotCarl73
07-18-2004, 12:15 AM
i have a trackir3 pro, sidewinder gamevoice, and msffb2. i never have to touch the keyboard or mouse. if you set up a good profile for trackir you move your head very little. i would say 10 degrees at most head left or right gives me the exorcist behind the head view. if i keep my eyes straight ahead they wouldn't even make it to the edge of my monitor. it's less eye movement than it is to look at your speed bar. i just got my trakir and it has greatly increased my enjoyment of simming. i have been using the game voice since it came out, and i can't believe it never caught on more, and then got discontinued. my printed profile for il2 is 5 pages long and i have every possible thing you could imagine at the sound of my voice. with macros, i can set "flaps down"(v), "takeoff flaps"(v,v), "landing flaps"(v,v,v), "flaps up"(f), "flaps retract"(f,f,f). that's all the stuff i have just for flaps. i use it to cycle icons, select any view, padlock, zoom, center trims, switch lights, select engines, automatically pump manual landing gear up and down, bring up and refresh the map, even turn the FPS display on and off. i have every single function that the sim can perform no more than one or two words away. i only have trims and brakes mapped to my joystick. and one button that serves to tell gamevoice to listen for my command. i regularly fly for hours and hours at a time touching only my joystick and 98% of the time the only button i push is the gamevoice command button. (and the trigger of course). i'm sure you've all read th e hate it or love it posts about the trackir. personally i love it. but i recommend to anyone even remotely interested in flight sims, try to find a used gamevoice on e-bay or find some kind of voice control software. i hardly have any idea what keyboard keys to press to do anything in il2, but it's easy to just say what you want it to do. i never read anything about voice commands in these (or any other forums). am i just stupid, or does anybody use this stuff.


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif sorry about rant

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Dnmy
07-18-2004, 03:22 AM
It's all nice and dandy. And whatever works, works.

However it's not about re-learning to dogfight.
It's about re-learning to manipulate views. Those are 2 different things.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

trumper
07-18-2004, 04:21 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
you know something. if anyone had problems and was turned off by TrackIR it was me. Any problem you can think of-- I had it.

Then one day, one of my buddies who had it, gave me some hints and emailed me his profile, and I gave it another shot. IT WAS WORTH IT.. For me in the end, it changed the face of simming forever.

QUOTE]

Would you be able to share the settings of TIR please,i have just bought TIR 3 and i am pleased with it but it could do with some tweaking help please,many thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif