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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 02:23 PM
I recently had the opportunity to visit the Huertgen Forest and its battlefields.
The Huertgen Forest became famous due to one of the biggest and longest battles the US army has ever fought. The battle was fought from September 1944 until February 1945. Both sides took a heavy toll in this battle. The cemeteries around Huertgen speak the story, Killed in Action: Germany 12000 US 55000.
The battlefield does not favour the attacking force, air support is indecisive because you just can't see the army below.

Does anyone have more information about the Huertgen battle?

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 02:23 PM
I recently had the opportunity to visit the Huertgen Forest and its battlefields.
The Huertgen Forest became famous due to one of the biggest and longest battles the US army has ever fought. The battle was fought from September 1944 until February 1945. Both sides took a heavy toll in this battle. The cemeteries around Huertgen speak the story, Killed in Action: Germany 12000 US 55000.
The battlefield does not favour the attacking force, air support is indecisive because you just can't see the army below.

Does anyone have more information about the Huertgen battle?

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 02:29 PM
AdiGlunz wrote:

-
- Does anyone have more information about the Huertgen
- battle?
-

This should keep you happy for a while:

http://www.hurtgen1944.homestead.com/Index.html

On a personal note, I believe the whole Huertgen Forest tragedy to be a symptom of British/US rivalry. It would have made sense to use the resources in a terrain that favoured the attacker, not the defender. As in NW Europe/Germany.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 02:29 PM
Isnt that the battle where during a cease fire both sides went out to help the wounded, no matter the nationality?

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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 03:13 PM
AdiGlunz wrote:
- I recently had the opportunity to visit the Huertgen
- Forest and its battlefields.
- The Huertgen Forest became famous due to one of the
- biggest and longest battles the US army has ever
- fought. The battle was fought from September 1944
- until February 1945. Both sides took a heavy toll in
- this battle. The cemeteries around Huertgen speak
- the story, Killed in Action: Germany 12000 US 55000.
- The battlefield does not favour the attacking force,
- air support is indecisive because you just can't see
- the army below.
-


The web link listed above gives far different casualty figures:



"Approximately 120,000 Americans, plus individual replacements augmenting that number by many thousands fought in the battle. More than 24,000 Americans were killed, missing, captured and wounded. Another 9,000 succumbed to the misery of trench foot, respiratory diseases and combat fatigue. In addition, some 80,000 Germans fought in this battle and an estimated 28,000 of them became casualties."

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 03:14 PM
Are you referring to this?

If not it still makes you think!

http://www.afn.co.kr/archives/readings/truce.htm

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 03:55 PM
Not long ago I saw a movie on television about this battle.
Fogot the name but I'm sure somebody remembers it.

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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:05 PM
The flick was called When Trumpets Fade.

Was the Truce in the Forest a true story?

It's a sobering read. People are the same the world over regardles of race or culture, the sooner we realise this the sooner we can make advances to word peace.

But instead we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes time again.

Sad stuff.


"Do unto others before they do unto you"

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:15 PM
More US lives were lost than any other campaign, that's what happened. Eisenhower allowed the replacement of front line troops "as needed" and the commanders just keep sending in replacements without actually going out to the front to see what was happening. Men where picked off in there foxholes 2 by 2 as German 82mm motars slowly zeroed in on them. I checked out a very depressing book "Death of an American Division" on how the "Bloody Buckets" were decimated. It's a famous military study on how NOT to run a war. The HBO movie didn't portray the battle to well. Most important thing is that the Americans could've gone around the forest and captured the dams which would've forced the germans to evacuate their well forified position or be flooded out. -jim-

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:21 PM
B16Enk wrote:
- Are you referring to this?
-
- If not it still makes you think!
-
- <a
- href="http://www.afn.co.kr/archives/readings/truce
- .htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.afn.co.kr/archives/readin
- gs/truce.htm</a>
-
-
-


Thank you, B16Enk. Every soul here should read this story, if they haven't already.


http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/images/proctorZeke.jpg
"My ancestors didn't come over in the Mayflower--they met the boat."


http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:23 PM
The question about the wisdom of attacking in the Huertgen can never be answered because the battle was never finished. That is, just as the Allies were on the point of victory; i.e., were going to attack the dams that, if captured, would have allowed a breakthrough into the Reich, the Germans launched the Battle of the Bulge rendering all that had gone before irrelevant. When initial reports of the Bulge offensive were received by the American high command, it was misinterpreted as a spoiling attack to prevent the capture of the Roer River dams. If those dams had been captured and if a subsequent invasion of Germany by that path was successul, we might now be discussing what a brilliant strategy it was to attack where the Germans didn't expect it.

I have often thought that a Huertgen simulation or game would be great fun. The overhanging branches of the trees in conjunction with he early morning fog and filly terrain cause very limited line of sight. Attacing into the unknown against a dug in enemy.

I know not what course others may choose, but as for me, give me computer games or give me television!

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:48 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
-
- The web link listed above gives far different
- casualty figures:
-
-
-
- "Approximately 120,000 Americans, plus individual
- replacements augmenting that number by many
- thousands fought in the battle. More than 24,000
- Americans were killed, missing, captured and
- wounded. Another 9,000 succumbed to the misery of
- trench foot, respiratory diseases and combat
- fatigue. In addition, some 80,000 Germans fought in
- this battle and an estimated 28,000 of them became
- casualties."
-
-
-
-

Yes I saw that myself, but go take a look for yourself you get a different impression. I have never been to a war cemetery before. I saw elderly people walking the rows, crying. Just like in the movie "Saving Private Ryan". I did not dare talk to them. They must have been children of a father lost. So many graves without a name.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 05:03 PM
- dams. If those dams had been captured and if a
- subsequent invasion of Germany by that path was
- successul, we might now be discussing what a
- brilliant strategy it was to attack where the
- Germans didn't expect it.

The dams could have been captured if commanders had decided to go around the thickest part of the forest. The attack was a matter of "we've got 'em, let's use 'em" and has been declared nothing but an unmitigated disaster from all sources, second only to Clark's attacks in Italy. Even interviews with german soldiers after the war were greeted with nothing but head shakes and comments on how they couldn't believe the americans would do such a foolish thing. -jim-

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 05:12 PM
Here is a link to another anlysis of the battle:


http://members.aeroinc.net/breners/buckswar/hist_text.html

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 05:23 PM
The trio of Eisenhower's generals is now complete-those men who must bear much responsibility for the debacle in the Hürtgen. The first was Courtney Hodges, commander of First Army. The second was Leonard Gerow, V Corps commander. [Norman] "Dutch" Coda was the third. Their mistakes led to the death of a division.

-Cecil B. Currey, Follow Me and Die, (p. 42).


My bad. This was the book I read; confusion with the falaise gap book I read. It's a good read if you don't mind something that shows the Americans in a very poor light. Most of the information was heavily suppress until lately -jim-

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 05:51 PM
Ernest Hemingway who was an war correspondent and eyewitness in the battle in the Huertgen forest, completely changed his mind on war, which he glorified until this battle. He wrote that there were plenty of replacements, but he thought, it would have been easier to shoot them on arrival, instead of later trying to recover their bodys where they had fallen.

Gerneral James Gawin, Commander of the 82. Airborne Division assessed after the battle that it had been the most costly, unproductive and bad led Battle, the U.S. Army has ever fought.

Not only misinterpretions of the strategic situation were made on the U.S. side, which ultimately led to this battle, but also on the tactical side of things during the course of the fighting, which prolonged the carnage unnecessary. The U.S. Army misjudged the dangers of fighting in densely wooded terrain, as AFV´s, Artillery and Airforce could not be effectively deployed. The extra time U.S. troops took to replenish supplys before trying to occupy the area around Huertgen, was utilized also by the germans to resupply and fortify the terrain with bunkers, minefields and other obstacles. Unlike the U.S. Army, the Wehrmacht also had experience with fighting in forests, this is why the relatively weak and bad equipped german forces were able to offer significant resistance in the Huertgen forest, regardless of their shortage on personnel and weapons.

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.