PDA

View Full Version : BF109F4 versus I16 advice please?



oddglob
09-09-2004, 12:15 AM
Hi all,

I have decided to make the BF109F4 my favoured FB/ AEP "mount", as I find the aircraft great fun and an excellent challenge to fly.

I have been flying it in the offline campaigns with reasonable success. When I say that, I don't mean I've been scoring victoty after victory - I just mean I have been holding up my end of the bargain as a journeyman squadron member.

That was until last night when I was playing my first mission of the Moscow 1941 offline campaign. In the first mission I came across what I later confirmed was an "ace" AI flying an I-16.

We became locked in a one-on-one dogfight over the town of Vyazma that lasted some 40 minutes real time, during which I was completely unable to get the upper hand at all. I was unable to out turn him and really did not seem to have the sheer grunt and firepower needed to use energy tactics. If I tried to climb away, he would simply climb right with me, so that made it almost impossible to gain sufficient height for energy tactics.

To be honest, in hindsight, I think had this happened in real life it would have been more sensible to break off and fly flat out back home. But since it is just a game, a since the squadron leader never seems to be able to excercise restraint, I kept at it.

Finally, with neither of us having got anywhere at all after some 40 minutes, his demise came when he crossed to closely to my six in a scissors manouever. He traded his 1 x whole right wing for my 1 x left elevator and 1 x rudder. Needless to say, that was the end for him (he didn't even bail out) and I managed to get back home without any problems.

What I am wondering is what are the best tactics to use against these pesky little aircraft? Out-turning seems to be out of the question and I did not seem to have much of a climb or speed advantage at all. The only thing I think could help is long range (+300 metres) use of the nose cannon, but that takes a lot of skill on a target like the I-16.

Since I get the impression that most of you here are easily able to dispose of any of the AI in the game using any aircraft, I would appreciate you passing on some (non-egotistical) tips on how to deal with this particular opponent. Thanks.

oddglob
09-09-2004, 12:15 AM
Hi all,

I have decided to make the BF109F4 my favoured FB/ AEP "mount", as I find the aircraft great fun and an excellent challenge to fly.

I have been flying it in the offline campaigns with reasonable success. When I say that, I don't mean I've been scoring victoty after victory - I just mean I have been holding up my end of the bargain as a journeyman squadron member.

That was until last night when I was playing my first mission of the Moscow 1941 offline campaign. In the first mission I came across what I later confirmed was an "ace" AI flying an I-16.

We became locked in a one-on-one dogfight over the town of Vyazma that lasted some 40 minutes real time, during which I was completely unable to get the upper hand at all. I was unable to out turn him and really did not seem to have the sheer grunt and firepower needed to use energy tactics. If I tried to climb away, he would simply climb right with me, so that made it almost impossible to gain sufficient height for energy tactics.

To be honest, in hindsight, I think had this happened in real life it would have been more sensible to break off and fly flat out back home. But since it is just a game, a since the squadron leader never seems to be able to excercise restraint, I kept at it.

Finally, with neither of us having got anywhere at all after some 40 minutes, his demise came when he crossed to closely to my six in a scissors manouever. He traded his 1 x whole right wing for my 1 x left elevator and 1 x rudder. Needless to say, that was the end for him (he didn't even bail out) and I managed to get back home without any problems.

What I am wondering is what are the best tactics to use against these pesky little aircraft? Out-turning seems to be out of the question and I did not seem to have much of a climb or speed advantage at all. The only thing I think could help is long range (+300 metres) use of the nose cannon, but that takes a lot of skill on a target like the I-16.

Since I get the impression that most of you here are easily able to dispose of any of the AI in the game using any aircraft, I would appreciate you passing on some (non-egotistical) tips on how to deal with this particular opponent. Thanks.

Dammerung
09-09-2004, 12:21 AM
Dive from high up, attack at 600kph, zoom back up.

Hit it in the cockpit and boom...

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

Rab03
09-09-2004, 12:48 AM
Outturn Rata? Impossible in most planes, except biplanes. It is quite simple to get rid of Rata menace-fly high and fast, don't engage in turn fight. Use your superior speed to climb steeply-he won't be able to follow you. Near top of the climb, you can choose wheteher you'll use some sort of hammerhead, dive on him and blast him away. If you miss him, climb, then dive again.
Once you gain speed and height advantage, don't lose them, under what ever circumstances.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

pres_
09-09-2004, 12:49 AM
I had the same problem exactly, I used to love the F4 and I used to have hell with the i-16's. This is the tip passed on to me : spiral climb against them. You will gain the upper hand with E, then use that E to advantage. Turning with the little buggers can be a most frustrating experience.

ELEM
09-09-2004, 01:13 AM
You both made your ammo last for 40 minutes??

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as a member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/dhm_787_small.jpg

WTE_Galway
09-09-2004, 01:14 AM
the F4 can almost hold its own in a turn fight with the I16 while it has more energy but almost is not good enough

one tactic that worked for me if i was silly enough to get slow and low was to get right on the deck and skim within a few metres of the ground .. suicide against a human pilot but it seems to throw the AI out

kit_lg2002
09-09-2004, 01:29 AM
Whatever you do dont turn with Rata, i use z&b and it works, mostly i fly the g2 but in the f4 must be the same, try to get higher then the i16 and then when you get behind him or in a teep dive just a few rounds must be enough to flame him.
corect me if i`m wrong but the rata seems to be very vulnerable at the engine, and cockpit off course :d.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/kit_lg2002/avatar.jpg

oddglob
09-09-2004, 02:22 AM
Wow, lots of good advise and fast as well. Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So, just with the z&b and height advantage, what sort of altitudes should I be looking at both above ground level and relative to the I16 before I engage in the dogfight?

It looks like the mistake I made was to engage them at only a slight height advantage. Maybe I should have kept my distance and gained the altitude first?

I did try ground skimming but that just didn't work - this AI pilot seemed to be extremely "good".

Oh, as for my ammo lasting 40 minutes, he was only in my sights for around 5 seconds of the total 40 minutes. I suppose if I was a better shot I could have nailed him with the cannon. The F4 doesn't seem to be the most stable gun platform out there, not that I am making excuses.

clint-ruin
09-09-2004, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oddglob:
Oh, as for my ammo lasting 40 minutes, he was only in my sights for around 5 seconds of the total 40 minutes. I suppose if I was a better shot I could have nailed him with the cannon. The F4 doesn't seem to be the most stable gun platform out there, not that I am making excuses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get Il-2 Compare - link to it should be in the sturmovik essentials thread. It's great for making performance numbers meaningful to you in visual terms - how fast exactly in how many seconds can a plane do a sustained turn, max climb speed, max speed height, etc, as compared to another plane, all graphed out.

You want to try to drag the I16s up with you - 6000m is the most acute performance difference between the I-16 and 109F4 in FB. Since the AI is stupid it will do this and let you kill it as it tries to get up there with you, and if you are playing against humans they need to remember where their mix/charger settings kick in at which alts, which can help you if they're distracted. If you keep your speed above 300 or 400kmh, you will outclimb the I-16. Coincidentally, at around 300-400kmh the F4 also out-turns the I-16. Get to where you are fast, stay at your best speed/alt to maximise any superiority you have over the opposition, and pick your fights. You can always run, gain alt, come back and surprise the target if you miss on your first high speed pass. The 109 has a lot of advantages over the I-16, and if you make use of them the I16 will lose and you will win.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

oddglob
09-09-2004, 03:58 AM
Thanks. I was wondering what that graph-like thing was I saw the other day comparing the aircraft. I wil defintely get that, as I wanted it when I saw it.

I went back and found I was having more luck with the BF109G series, but I am still struggling with the F series. I think the chandelles mentioned earlier in this thread are useful, because it seems that is the only way I can both climb and not lose sight of him. If I just do a straight climb I can't really tell when I have gained enough distance to safely pull a hammerhead or similar.

Anyway, practice obviously doesn't make perfect, but it sure will help me improve.

Rab03
09-09-2004, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ELEM:
You both made your ammo last for 40 minutes??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Ammo set to real, also goes for fuel, engine, etc. I had a good show last night. My aim was working like a dream.

To oddglob: you don't have to do hammerhead, you can apply slow immelman (something like half-loop), you will have much better chances of seeing him. After you see him, decide whether it's safe to dive on him. Some pilots even flew upside dow for short periods of time to see if there's someone below.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

pres_
09-09-2004, 09:16 AM
Bearing what clint said in mind, the F4 becomes a reasonably stable gun platform above 350km/h too.

Jumoschwanz
09-09-2004, 10:04 AM
Here is a tactic to defeat any AI.

Get them to chase you just out of gun range. Get at least five hundred meters alt then roll upside down and pull back on the stick smoothly so you change direction by 180 degrees and are flying toward them on the deck. Smoothness is paramount because you need speed. Next climb at about a forty five degree angle, when your speed falls to 250 on the speedbar go vertical.

The AI will try and follow you but will not execute this manuever well at all. The do not do it smoothly and do not gain the speed you will.

When you stall out at the top of your vertical climb they will be below you waiting for your shells. From here you will be able to repeat zooming and booming and increase or maintain the edge you have gained. f4 against rata should be a breeze with this technique.

Jumoschwanz