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Charlie_52ndVFW
02-04-2004, 10:17 AM
We did a complete test and review on the CH Products Fighterstick USB and Pro Throttle USB.

http://www.virtualflightproductions.com/reviews/chproductsreview.htm

http://www.52ndvfw.com/52ndCharlie.jpg (http://www.52ndvfw.com)

Charlie_52ndVFW
02-04-2004, 10:17 AM
We did a complete test and review on the CH Products Fighterstick USB and Pro Throttle USB.

http://www.virtualflightproductions.com/reviews/chproductsreview.htm

http://www.52ndvfw.com/52ndCharlie.jpg (http://www.52ndvfw.com)

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-04-2004, 10:56 AM
Who is "We"?

I've used CH products for many years and have considered other possibilities...only to always return to them with good results. Currently I'm using a MSFF2 JS with the Pro Pedals and Pro Throttle. I have a Fighterstick that occupies a spot on my desk, but haven't taken the dive yet to set it up completely and configure. Mostly because of the fact it is strictly right-handed and I like having FFB. I know, without a doubt, that it's only a matter of time before I decide to go "righty", but those who have lurked around these boards know I'm very much a non-conformist in that regard.

Whenever given the opportunity though I am glad to "mark out" on behalf of CH. Their products really are that good.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Woof603
02-04-2004, 10:56 AM
For anyone looking for a stick, pedals or throttle, I endorse this review whole heartedly.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Bearcat99
02-04-2004, 02:28 PM
I never knew MS & Logitech had a HOTAS.......

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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arcadeace
02-04-2004, 02:41 PM
I won't consider buying from them untill they do build for lefties. Which probably means never http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

Xnomad
02-04-2004, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I never knew MS & Logitech had a HOTAS.......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose they just mean that these companies' joysticks have a throttle on them so the term Hands On Throttle And Stick still applies.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

resev
02-04-2004, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
I won't consider buying from them untill they do build for lefties. Which probably means never http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


They do build a letfy joystick.
It may be fugly as hell, but it retains all the quality from CH.
Only a severely stupid company would "waste" money on a dedicated lefty controler, and because of that, the best you will ever see coming from any company, is an ambidextruous design.
As i said, its fugly, but when it comes to construction, rest assured that it is of very high quality.

Here you go:http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_flight_stick.html

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

BM357_Raven
02-04-2004, 03:13 PM
I am a hot-glue gun super-enthusiast. I am always looking for something to hot glue.

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

BM357_Raven
02-04-2004, 03:20 PM
Now you might be wondering why I bring that up. Or you might be thinking, "yeah you know, hot gluing is a helluva lotta fun.."

Regardless of which camp you subscribe to, one can not fail to admit that there are always applications for hot glue that cannot be denied. The big question is whether this idea for application of hot glue has any merit:

What about taking a joystick that has been ergonomically molded for a right hand and adding layers of hotglue to it until the ridges no longer conflict with left-handed use?

Please vote:

1) STUPID IDEA YOU FRIGGIN BIRD BRAIN
2) RAVEN YOU ARE INSANE BUT BRILLIANT
3) WHAT ON EARTH IS HE TALKING ABOUT?

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

resev
02-04-2004, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
We did a complete test and review on the CH Products Fighterstick USB and Pro Throttle USB.

http://www.virtualflightproductions.com/reviews/chproductsreview.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Congratulation on the review.
With maybe the exception of Frugal's, there aren't that many reviews made for the CH products.

Perhaps you boys could have done a little bit more.
Maybe talking about the tension force of the controllers when compared to other products on the market, and the weight and stability of the whole set.

Its a sugestion.

Cheers.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

[This message was edited by resev on Wed February 04 2004 at 05:03 PM.]

JG27_Arklight
02-04-2004, 03:41 PM
The only 2 problems I have with the CH concern the Fighterstick and Preo Throttle, and this is just my opinion, is that the springs on the Fighterstick are WAY to loose (not enough tension) and the the Throttle isn't very ergonomic.

Those are the teo reasons I bought a Cougar in addition to all the CH Stuff.

I don't doubt the CH stuff one bit. Quality appeared to be high and installation was as easy as it gets but the two reasons above were just too annoying to contend with.

Ark

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I fear nothing, for I am driving a Frogfoot.
------------
2.4C @ 3.6 Default Volt.
ASUS P4C800-E (Rev. 11)
1GB Mushkin PC3500 LvL2 Black @ 2-2-2-5
Radeon 9800XT (Cat. 3.10)
SB Augigy Gamer
Antec True550
Zalman 7000A-CU HSF
4 Case fans/1 120mm Blowhole

BfHeFwMe
02-04-2004, 04:04 PM
Don't think you'll last long in the review business. Not too cool dissing the cougar when you don't have one to evaluate. What would it take for CH to get dissed, a freebie from Saitek? Even the CH company can't fail but notice that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FMJ3G
02-04-2004, 04:08 PM
I use the fighter stick USB and Pro Pedals USB. I will pick up the Throttle USB soon. The CH products are great performers, and are tough as nails.

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:09 PM
cougar, saitek, ms are crap. nothing compares to ch. so the springs are a little loose so what. just adjust the sensitivity.

if you wanna be as good as me buy CH. I cant make any promises though.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Freycinet
02-04-2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
We did a complete test and review on the CH Products Fighterstick USB and Pro Throttle USB.

http://www.virtualflightproductions.com/reviews/chproductsreview.htm

http://www.52ndvfw.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

now that was a brown-nose review if there ever was one. sorry to say it like that, but that's how it is...

JG27_Arklight
02-04-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
cougar, saitek, ms are crap. nothing compares to ch. so the springs are a little loose so what. just adjust the sensitivity.

if you wanna be as good as me buy CH. I cant make any promises though.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Spoken just like somebody who has never owned any of the others.

Figures.

BTW...adjusting the sensitivity does nothing for the springs. Can you adjust the deadzones? Yes. Can you adjust the spring tension? No.

Ark

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I fear nothing, for I am driving a Frogfoot.
------------
2.4C @ 3.6 Default Volt.
ASUS P4C800-E (Rev. 11)
1GB Mushkin PC3500 LvL2 Black @ 2-2-2-5
Radeon 9800XT (Cat. 3.10)
SB Augigy Gamer
Antec True550
Zalman 7000A-CU HSF
4 Case fans/1 120mm Blowhole

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:43 PM
had a saish!t and it broke. i knew someone that bought a cougar he said it sux and breaks. ms triggers fall off- no thanks. i had a logitech but it wouldnt stay calib, P.O.S. if i ever saw one. so anything other than a ch i say 'no thanks.'

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

JG27_Arklight
02-04-2004, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
had a saish!t and it broke. i knew someone that bought a cougar he said it sux and breaks. ms triggers fall off- no thanks. i had a logitech but it wouldnt stay calib, P.O.S. if i ever saw one. so anything other than a ch i say 'no thanks.'

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Never had any issues with my CH (except spring tension and the throttle is kind of kooky feeling), My Cougar runs GREAT, and my last Saitek lasted for close to 3 years.

Now my Logitech on the other hand lasted about 30 days. What a P.O.S that thing was.

Ark

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I fear nothing, for I am driving a Frogfoot.
------------
2.4C @ 3.6 Default Volt.
ASUS P4C800-E (Rev. 11)
1GB Mushkin PC3500 LvL2 Black @ 2-2-2-5
Radeon 9800XT (Cat. 3.10)
SB Augigy Gamer
Antec True550
Zalman 7000A-CU HSF
4 Case fans/1 120mm Blowhole

BM357_Raven
02-04-2004, 05:44 PM
Actually what GK said is true for me. I've had three MS FFB2 and all of the triggers have failed forcing me to use my thumb button to fire with...

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

x6BL_Brando
02-04-2004, 05:57 PM
On the lefty front, I can say for sure that you can convert a ch fighterstick to a southpaw. Since I lost my right arm and started simming I've converted quite a lot of hardware to my new shape! Next to the CH, the best I ever worked with was the original FF pro from M$. That had good build quality, and I hardwired the Shift function to a foot switch to get all the options available from the old Sidewinder software. The advent of WinXP and FB meant going to the FF2 which, imo, is too cheaply constructed to be convert-able. And there is positively NO backup from M$ products, no spares, nuttin.
For a long while I messed with various sticks, but apart from the ambidextrous Saitek Cyborg I found nothing comfortable. (I know the S'tek Force is either way too - but I ain't flyin' a Klingon Bird of Prey!) In the end I went for the CH gear, based on reviews, and I'm really not disappointed. The build quality is superb, the software is great (once understood) and the tech support & spares situation is way more than most.

Conversion-wise, I sawed off the stick-mounted top-hat flush with the handle and mounted it on the left edge of the base, where I also set the mode button. I drilled the RHS of the stick and mounted a small pot inside with the shaft & thumbwheel sticking out right under where my thumb rests. That's my throttle! (I reckon that'd be a good mod for a lot of sticks LH or RH) I also dismounted the stick & and rotated it 180o around the shaft, thereby bringing the elevator trimwheel within reach and allowing a clear view of the mode LEDS, obscured when using the left hand. Finally, I drilled four holes in the base and glued in captive nuts, so that I can bolt the beast onto its floorstand.
The programming is cool: on just one hat I can raise & lower I-16 gear, hydraulic gear, flaps, pitch, rad, wep, supercharger and mixture. Using TrackIR, I still have 3 more hats for practically all the commands you can think of.
I dont have any beef with the springing - it always returns to centre smoothly (think Saitek X45!) and it can be trimmed for level, hand(s)-off flight.

My main point is: what other stick could handle all the drilling , sawing and major re-wiring that I inflicted on the Fighterstick and still fly as sweetly? Nothing I've encoutered.

"Stuff the Fugitive - here comes the one-armed man" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

resev
02-04-2004, 06:15 PM
Brando, hats off to you, mate.

"Necessity is the mother of invention"
Never a clichª was so well put into prespective, i would say.

Good show, see you in the blue.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

Bearcat99
02-04-2004, 08:54 PM
I have the same MS stick that I got 2.5 yrs ago.. actually my son has it now.... and it still works great...trigger and all.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

AFJ_Locust
02-05-2004, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
I won't consider buying from them untill they do build for lefties. Which probably means never http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They Do !!!!!

http://www.flightsimcentral.com/fligprousb.html

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-05-2004, 03:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Don't think you'll last long in the review business. Not too cool dissing the cougar when you don't have one to evaluate. What would it take for CH to get dissed, a freebie from Saitek? Even the CH company can't fail but notice that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Belive me there is no other Stick better than CH

Ive used them ALL & CH Rules !!! Hands down

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

Capt.LoneRanger
02-05-2004, 04:34 AM
Tested quite a couple of sticks, including AfterBurnerII from TM and X45, just to name the most renown. I'm still playing with my almost 10 years old gameport CH-HOTAS. Nothing beats it's precision, durability and modability. I've never seen a joystick that was that easily adjustable in terms of spring-resistance.

I think I'll switch to USB sometime in the future, but I'll surely stick with CH!


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

OJ_79
02-05-2004, 06:29 AM
Awful review!

Having said that, I ditched my CH Flightstick 2 years ago in favour of x-45.

I bought my Flightstick in 1992 to play AV8B harrier assault, strike commander and f-15 3.

It worked perfectly till last year when the pots started to severely spike!

Additionaly, I realised that 2 buttons, axis trim and throttle wheel really weren't enough for today's games!

I really, really want the Fighterstick - the twin axis system really is the best.

oeqvist
02-05-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by resev:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
I won't consider buying from them untill they do build for lefties. Which probably means never http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


They do build a letfy joystick.
It may be fugly as hell, but it retains all the quality from CH.
Only a severely stupid company would "waste" money on a dedicated lefty controler, and because of that, the best you will ever see coming from any company, is an ambidextruous design.
As i said, its fugly, but when it comes to construction, rest assured that it is of very high quality.

Here you go:http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_flight_stick.html

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you have missed the legendary Saitek Cyborg 3D stick? That was both left and right handy without being ambidextrous which isn´t necessary a bad thing.

That is the most comfortable joystick for any hand ever made. Totally customable and even came with it´s own tool.

I got the Saitek Cyborg Force stick and sadly it isn´t as customable as the Cyborg 3D stick but it´s a bit cheaper and it´s more comfortable than any right hand joystick I have tried. I think especially Microsoft and Thrustmaster seem to overdo their design on their joysticks. A PC joystick don´t have to look like the real thing really.

PriK
02-05-2004, 08:38 AM
The bottom line, once you get past all the fanboy talk here, is that your stick needs are going to depend on what other equipment you have already. If you just want a stick and aren't into flight sims enough to warrant more gear, than go with a reliable stick that has lots of buttons and good ergonomics. If you plan on building the full setup (pedals, throttle, stick) than I would suggest the MSFFB2 if you can still find one.

The only drawback to the MSFFB2 is a lack of buttons really and somebody mentioned buttons that may deteriorate although mine is fine after 3-4 years. If you are a serious combat flight simmer you will want the force feedback (modded to taste) so you can feel approaching stalls and speed of your aircraft without having to rely on less realistic visual cues or arcade settings.

Too each their own however.

The CH throttle is indispensible, especially when assigning a shift button so you will never need to touch your keyboard while flying unless you want to chat.

I do have a question though for any CH pedals users out there, since I just got mine for Christmas: Is there supposed to be a bit of "play" when they are centred? As nice as they are, I find them a bit stiff and with a slightly annoying "snap" when centred. Also, the "play" in center makes it a bit less accurate when taxiing. Not a big deal but I wondered if I might have got a set that aren't fully tightened up.

http://charvel.acwos.com/chbanner.jpg

Prangerman
02-05-2004, 02:51 PM
I recently upgraded from my old gameport CH Products Force FX stick, pro pedals and pro throttle to the USB equivalents - unfortunately there is no force feedback stick, so opted for the Fighterstick. The old rig had done some 7 years of valiant service enduring torrid use and abuse thru' Flying Corps, F22 DID, EAW, Apache Havoc and Il2 and FB.

I don't know how good other sticks are, but CH stuff is very strong and reliable - and now with Track IR2 from my lady wife, I have so many buttons to programme.

x6BL_Brando
02-05-2004, 04:28 PM
Prik................"I do have a question though for any CH pedals users out there, since I just got mine for Christmas: Is there supposed to be a bit of "play" when they are centred? As nice as they are, I find them a bit stiff and with a slightly annoying "snap" when centred. Also, the "play" in center makes it a bit less accurate when taxiing. Not a big deal but I wondered if I might have got a set that aren't fully tightened up."

Several differing points here... The "snap" will ease off after a while, though they will stay self-centering. There is some centre-play as in any analog set-up, but there are a couple of ways to get around this.

Use the tail-wheel lock. Remember that tail-draggers need to yaw to see where they're going when taxi-ing, and that taxiing speed is only just at the threshold of control surface effectiveness.

If you were using the CH Control Manager it would be possible to alter the sensitivity of the rudder.

And time will do it anyhow...I struggled for a while, but it came...just like learning to ride a bike http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Quote:
"Brando, hats off to you, mate.

"Necessity is the mother of invention"
Never a clichª was so well put into prespective, i would say.

Good show, see you in the blue."

resev,

I hope so mate! A big salute to you too!

If I ever learn how, I will post a picture of my BMW K100RS and its Russian sidecar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It don't fly (much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) but it sure can taxi fast!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Stuff the Fugitive - there goes the one-armed man&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JG27_Dacripler
02-05-2004, 07:17 PM
I have the Fighter Stick and really enjoy it. I also have the rudders to go along with it. When I first went to use the set-up about 6 months ago, initially it was a true pain in my azz. First, when I played the stick it was vastly different because it has no twist not does it have that return to center like my previous MSFF2 (IMHO is a top stick). But as the time passed I am still learning the stick with the rudders that I bought along with it. I notice the differences right away when I play the game with the FFB2 vs the CH. CH gives you pin-point accuracy when it comes to moving the stick in any direction where the FFB2 is left behind. CH has a certain quality feel about it that my best instincts tell me this baby is gonna last a lot longer than the 3 yr. warantee it backs with it. If you look at the two side by side the CH is HUGE and loaded with options to delight. I don't know if I have became any better by using it but I believe if your getting involved with advanced games and sims then you need not to look for any other. I like it and am pleased to say the company does give you a quality stick for a good value.

Hristo_
02-05-2004, 11:40 PM
Was a TM guy for years. After owning and hating the Cougar, switched to CH. Simply much better !

Charlie_52ndVFW
02-06-2004, 09:26 AM
To cover many questions or comments in one post....

"We" refers to Virtual Flight Productions, mainly Zak and myself.

There is a good friend of ours in town who has a F-16 mock up and uses the cougar. We sp0ent quite some time playing with it prior to doing this review whenver we are over at his place. So, to say we havent used the cougar is false. We have. We still like the CH better. While I was in-different to the cougar, Zak hated it. Either way, our friend had to send it in twice for repairs and updates and he is sick of it. His words were something like "If I hadnt paid $350 for this, it would have been replaced long ago".

Brown nose review? Uhm, No. We call it like it is. I used a X45 for 2 years prior to picking up the CH gear. Ive used the cougar off and on for about a year when I have the chance. I used the Logitek Wingman Extreme for years before the X45. I called it like I see it. These are my opinions. If you dont like them, dont read our review.

We are not in the review business. We design and build simulators. This is something we do on the side to help the community know more about products they are thinking of buying. Thats why we have very few reviews out compared to others.... its not our main business.

OJ: Seeing as how your first lasted from 1992 until 2003, thats pretty good if you ask me. Bummer you didnt like the review. Oh well. I did. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.52ndvfw.com/52ndCharlie.jpg (http://www.52ndvfw.com)