PDA

View Full Version : Can Someone explain how to fly in formation. And some hope for PF.



adadaead
08-05-2004, 04:08 PM
I can't fly in formation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. I've played Il-2 for a year and still can't figure it out, i ethier fly to fast or to slow sometimes even when i lead poor ai is trying to properly follow me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. What do i do, i know that it have to do something with pitch and power (magnetos? what are they for). I just what to learn it for Pacific expasion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

O yeah i hope in Pacific Fighters there is a mission where a squadron of P-38 was sent out to down a plane(transport) where the general who was responsible for Pearl Harbor its just a historical mission. And i hope there will be an autopitch thing is on every plane i know it not realistic but i've never seen a joystick with two throttles. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ot vinta http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be."

adadaead
08-05-2004, 04:08 PM
I can't fly in formation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. I've played Il-2 for a year and still can't figure it out, i ethier fly to fast or to slow sometimes even when i lead poor ai is trying to properly follow me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. What do i do, i know that it have to do something with pitch and power (magnetos? what are they for). I just what to learn it for Pacific expasion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

O yeah i hope in Pacific Fighters there is a mission where a squadron of P-38 was sent out to down a plane(transport) where the general who was responsible for Pearl Harbor its just a historical mission. And i hope there will be an autopitch thing is on every plane i know it not realistic but i've never seen a joystick with two throttles. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ot vinta http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be."

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 04:15 PM
turn on auto pilot and note engine rpm. turn off auto pilot and target that rpm range.

let the game teach you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

_VR_ScorpionWorm
08-05-2004, 04:31 PM
Thats one way to do it, but if you look closely the AI moves the throttle up and down over and over to stay 'within' an RPM range, Ive flown almost perfectly with the AI and I had to constantly move my throttle from 50% up to 60% back and forth to stay in good formation, too much of a hassle IMHO.

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 04:33 PM
Nah man... You just get it a little higher than you think you need and choke her down with prop pitch. If your way up high, back the mix off (depends on the plane/ altitude). With a little practice you'll get the sweet-spot figured out.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

_VR_ScorpionWorm
08-05-2004, 04:50 PM
Hmm, Ill give this method a try BaldieJr. Maybe Ill do better when in the number two spot and stop making number 3 do loops when I fall behind. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

Atomic_Marten
08-05-2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _VR_ScorpionWorm:
Thats one way to do it, but if you look closely the AI moves the throttle up and down over and over to stay 'within' an RPM range, Ive flown almost perfectly with the AI and I had to constantly move my throttle from 50% up to 60% back and forth to stay in good formation, too much of a hassle IMHO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the main reason why is diffcult to fly in AI formation. On the other hand it is not SO difficult if you are willing to glue your eyes to the A/C next to you and constantly adjusting your power (usually in range 40-60%).

adadaead the only way to learn flying in formation is practice. That way you will be able to maintain your position in AI formation and even accelerate time if neccesary without losing your position in formation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. U can even make yourself mission in FMB to practice formation flying.

Breeze147
08-05-2004, 05:26 PM
You have to work the throttle constantly. I haven't gotten into CEM yet. But I know once you catch up to the formation, you can stay between .8 and 1.0 away from your wingie by working the throttle. Once you find the sweet spot, it's only about a 2% adjustment, either way. I don't get closer to my wingman because I want to keep an eye out for sudden movements that can cause a mid-air collision. The AI flies at .2 and that is too close for comfort for me. I hope this helps.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap16.jpg

Bikewer
08-05-2004, 06:12 PM
I find it to be a hassle as well, and I've been fooling with it for years. For some unknown reason, the entire flight will frequently seem to chop throttle, letting you overshoot. I usually just hang back a few hundred yards.

Of more concern are the constant stream of vectors that, if followed, would put you somewhere near Antartica.
Hopefully, this will be corrected in PF; I don't fancy wandering the Pacific for hours.

Treetop64
08-05-2004, 06:57 PM
You could fly as if you are pursuing your wingman to shoot him, but hang slightly to the left or right depending on the formation.

You are not going to fly perfectly in the formation, just make sure you are at least keeping up with your flight. It takes much concentration to maintain proper formation - it is not easy by any means.

Also, you'll want to be aware that if you are flying as a fighter pilot and you are flying the pattern for CAP, at every turn of the "triangle" your flight will cut their throttle and gain altitude briefly before settling back down to the assigned altitude and normal cruising speed. You'll want to do the same or else you will overshoot.

Remember, fly as if you are pursuing your lead instead of thinking strictly of flying in formation. That simple thought helped me considerably.

horseback
08-05-2004, 08:16 PM
My experiences with flying formation with AI lead me to believe that the best way to do it is to make sure he doesn't have a canopy frame to hide behind for an extended period. If he's going to accellerate or slow to a hover, that's when the bastage will do it.

I can't count the number of times I've finally almost caught up to my formation right on the edge of engine overheat, gotten to about .06km away from my 'wingie', let him slip behind the canopy frame for 5 seconds, and found him .70km away when he reappears.

The AI is treacherous, and bears constant watching. He knows you have no peripheral vision, and he's just waiting for the opportunity to embarrass or collide with you.

You're much safer trailing off to one side IMO.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Tully__
08-06-2004, 07:27 AM
Fly with cockpit on, flying in formation is easier that way.

Once you have speed matched, trim elevator (when trim is available) to maintain level flight at that speed.

When trimmmed, work out what throttle setting you need to maintain that speed.

Using throttle to control altitude and pitch to control speed, re-match you flight lead speed and altitude. Altitude is obvious, but for speed fly a bit to one side and set yourself up so that he's not moving backwards or forwards in your field of view.

From there, very small throttle (less than +/-3%) and pitch adjustments should keep you in place.

With practice you'll be able to maintain less than 0.15 distance.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

flyboy_112th
08-06-2004, 07:46 AM
Thanks Tully. That's pretty much where I'd arrived at.

Here's a tip while learning though: If you padlock your leader (yeah yeah let's not have that debate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) then put him on your ten o'clock you can use relative motion of the cockpit to help you determine your relative speeds. If your POV starts to move forward, then up your prop pitch a bit to gain speed, if backwards then lower it a tad.

As long as you keep him in the same place in your window then that's one less thing to worry about.
There *are* a couple of potential gotchas though:

1) When your lead turns he'll sometimes gain height, roll to retain your sight picture rather than pulling back on the stick or you'll find yourself in a world of pain.

2) Watch his apparent size. If you are going to keep his relative bearing absolutely fixed, then any overspeed will manifest in you getting closer to him rather than pulling past him. It doesn't take a genius to work out where that will end up (!) so be prepared to knock that throttle back a bit if necessary.

http://112th.redhalibut.co.uk/112thflyboysig270704.jpg

Zayets
08-06-2004, 07:58 AM
What do you call formation?Being as close as possible to your leader?If it's so , doesn't worth the effort because much of your attention will be distracted to the leader plane instead of you performing the most vital part of your mission:scanning the horizon.
Is very easy to stay between 0.5 - 0.8 and that should suffice.I don't know why ppl want to fly like on a parade since this is pretty much dangerous.Collision or missing that spot in the sky which eventually will shoot you down.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

tsisqua
08-06-2004, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
O yeah i hope in Pacific Fighters there is a mission where a squadron of P-38 was sent out to down a plane(transport) where the general who was responsible for Pearl Harbor its just a historical mission. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, Mate!

If you download Uberdemon's software at http://www.uberdemon.com/ you will find many, MANY missions . . . one of them is called "The Death Of Yamamoto", and is exactly the mission that you described. You have to kill Admiral Yamamotot's transport plane to complete the mission.

Make sure that you get this utility, and read very carefuly the instructions for installation at Uberdemon's site. This is a free utility. Yes, FREE (do I have your attention, now?) and is arguably the best third party mission creator for IL2/FB/AEP out there.

I have flown this mission several times, and still, I am not tired of it. As you are taking off, you will see another group of P-38's taking off, at the same time, to your left . . . yep, simultaneous takeoff. Not a single mission included with the game will allow you to do this, and the realism is very immersive.

If you have any trouble with the software, just post back here . . . there are alot of us willing to help.

Good Hunting,
Tsisqua

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-bird1.JPG

ZG77_Lignite
08-06-2004, 09:21 AM
Also note: If your flying Dgen (or DCG for that matter) campaign missions, the AI is programmed to fly at a certain airspeed, normally 350kph (true). This is your target speed, and gives you another reference point (along with your flight).

On another subject, that seems to be the exact Wrong speed for the aircraft I fly (FW190), 400kph is much easier to maintain, for me at least. I was able to get a DCG campaign going, and upped the 'cruise' speed, and it is much easier to hold position, for whatever reason.

As a historical side note, one of the most effective tactics of the Germans was the relaxation of formation flying, which up to that point had been quite strict ('where the hell are you!?!'). Adoption of the 'Rotte', similar to American 'Loose Duece', allowed for more effective scanning for enemies, and paid less attention to strict formation flying, allowing for improved SA and improved combat initiation. Of course all the airforces adopted this technique at some point. So don't feel too bad if your not 5 meters off your leaders wing.

mortoma
08-06-2004, 02:01 PM
You can't really explain how to fly formation in a thread. But I suggest you pratice in the Jug, it's the easiest to fly in formation, although no planes are really hard to fly formation in. The 109s are fairy throttle power peaky and harder than most. As for the jets, well get good at the props first. All I know is I can fly perfect formation with any plane in the sim, whereas a while back I couldn't fly any of them in formation very well. So there's hope. It's called experience and practice.

mortoma
08-06-2004, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
What do you call formation?Being as close as possible to your leader?If it's so , doesn't worth the effort because much of your attention will be distracted to the leader plane instead of you performing the most vital part of your mission:scanning the horizon.
Is very easy to stay between 0.5 - 0.8 and that should suffice.I don't know why ppl want to fly like on a parade since this is pretty much dangerous.Collision or missing that spot in the sky which eventually will shoot you down.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nonsense, I have flown more offline missions in camapaign mode than probably anybody around. And the AI will ALWAYS spot the enemy for you and announce it every single time. I have absolutely never had any trouble due to fly in formation and not maintaining situational awareness in this sim. Online it might be a factor but offline it never is. Not ever, not one single time. Not in thousands of missions, not in offline mode flying with and against AI.]
You have plenty of time to get ready once they announce the bogies too. In this sim, you only need situational awareness once combat begins, period.

Zayets
08-06-2004, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
What do you call formation?Being as close as possible to your leader?If it's so , doesn't worth the effort because much of your attention will be distracted to the leader plane instead of you performing the most vital part of your mission:scanning the horizon.
Is very easy to stay between 0.5 - 0.8 and that should suffice.I don't know why ppl want to fly like on a parade since this is pretty much dangerous.Collision or missing that spot in the sky which eventually will shoot you down.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nonsense, I have flown more offline missions in camapaign mode than probably anybody around. And the AI will ALWAYS spot the enemy for you and announce it every single time. I have absolutely never had any trouble due to fly in formation and not maintaining situational awareness in this sim. Online it might be a factor but offline it never is. Not ever, not one single time. Not in thousands of missions, not in offline mode flying with and against AI.]
You have plenty of time to get ready once they announce the bogies too. In this sim, you only need situational awareness once combat begins, period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And your point being?Where do you see offline in my post?And even offline,if you are flight leader you can wait untill judgement day for your schwarm mates to announce the enemy.But then again,you are flying as you want,the rest has to follow and if this is the AI then they do it good.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Bearcat99
08-06-2004, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Fly with cockpit on, flying in formation is easier that way.

Once you have speed matched, trim elevator (when trim is available) to maintain level flight at that speed.

When trimmmed, work out what throttle setting you need to maintain that speed.

Using throttle to control altitude and pitch to control speed, re-match you flight lead speed and altitude. Altitude is obvious, but for speed fly a bit to one side and set yourself up so that he's not moving backwards or forwards in your field of view.

From there, very small throttle (less than +/-3%) and pitch adjustments should keep you in place.

With practice you'll be able to maintain less than 0.15 distance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is correct Tully. I read an article in PC Pilot or Computer Pilot.. I dont remember which.. a few months ago about formation flying and the way it was done was once you matched settings you used visual cues from the AC you were trying to stick with. Like say having the back of his canopy or plane... a spar or something.. in a certain part of your view and keeping it there. That was how they did it.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!