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Hans684
08-22-2014, 09:03 PM
No this is not a racist/sexist thread, leave such outside this discussion. The question is how far are any of you willing to push the historical protagonists stories?

Here is one of my ideas.

"I support such ideas highly, thing is it might be to "controversial" among fans. People are already screaming against Rogue because they won't kill their "brothers" and play the "bad guy". This series should have so much grayness that people would be confused about what side to choose. Equal treatment of both orders is my proposal, the Templars have been show in black and white view because of the Ezio trilogy. So why not have something like "Mafia's Creed"(because that's what people would call it if Ubisoft did even with the AC name, same case with Pirates(BF)). Obviously the name of the game won't the "Mafia's Creed", it will be AC [number or not and or subtitle related to theme/focus]. An AC during times where Mafias had creat influence and fought agains each other. Now let's say each Mafia order is a broken part of a big disagreement in the entire Assassin Order. Because of that the Assassins split up but all their goal still collide so they fight each other "for a better future"(their usual main goal). That's something I'd love to explore and in such a game the Templars will be the authority hunting the Mafia.

Or we can turn that idea on it's head, the order still split up and fight but we are a Templar Agent(and cop) hunting the Mafia(Assassins/criminals). It can be considered an Assassin Civil War from both perspectives but in one we are in the middle of it and in the other we try to stop it." - My reply to the AC Civil War thread.

Now it's your turn, how far would you push it? Do you scream "WE NEED MORE GRAYNESS!!" yet turn around and call Assassins "good guys"? I don't care either way, I just want to know your limit. It's not from a gameplay perspective. This is further story ideas that might be to "controversial" for fans like playing the corrupt Mentor of a corrupt Assassin Order. It's about pushing the limits and inspire the writers. If they do push more limits like with Rogue(from story perspective) I'll enjoy the Assassin/Templar war even more. It's boring to always be "good". Like with AC3, we played Haytham, he saved slaves, killed he slaver and Edward Braddock. He gave the Templars a good side, a human side.

RinoTheBouncer
08-25-2014, 01:35 PM
I like your idea. I’m interesting in seeing the Assassins going through dark times and corruption and I’m totally WITH moral grayness cause that’s what ACI was. Yes, some of the villains were bad in an exaggerated way, but the speeches we had with them made the differences become gray rather than black and white and that’s what I loved about it. ACII, AC:B and AC:R are my favorites but those mainly had the typical “bad” villains, most of the time and there wasn’t much debate about who’s right. I loved how ACIII got that feeling back with Haytham and it faded away again with ACIV:BF.

I’ll be really happy to see such stuff happening, linking the Assassins to the Mafia, and then having this whole civil war between them. It’s interesting and perhaps you can be Templar agent who ends up allying with the “good Assassins” for one reason or another and ends up respecting what they stand for and help them against the corrupt ones..etc. I’d also love to see a game about the Illuminati, perhaps. I mean so many conspiracy theories talk about the Freemasons or the Bavarian Illuminati existing before and vanishing and others say they exist until now and they just control everything from behind the scenes. From one look, they appear to be the Templars who seek control and are known for wealth and power.

I remember a member here long ago saying something interesting about them which is that “they’re the illuminated/enlightened ones, the ones who work in the darkness to serve the light” so that makes them more like Assassins. So who knows? I believe this topic itself is worthy of discussion and it’s a real life conspiracy theory and a large part of it is a fact regarding their origins in back in the 13th century.

Fatal-Feit
08-25-2014, 03:03 PM
I like your idea. I’m interesting in seeing the Assassins going through dark times and corruption and I’m totally WITH moral grayness cause that’s what ACI was. Yes, some of the villains were bad in an exaggerated way, but the speeches we had with them made the differences become gray rather than black and white and that’s what I loved about it. ACII, AC:B and AC:R are my favorites but those mainly had the typical “bad” villains, most of the time and there wasn’t much debate about who’s right. I loved how ACIII got that feeling back with Haytham and it faded away again with ACIV:BF.

AC:IV was not black and white. It was morally grey like AC:3.

aL_____eX
08-25-2014, 03:08 PM
Sorry, but where was ACIII 'morally grey'? Templars are bad, Assassins are good (okay, maybe that's not entirely true) but the game had much black-white thinking in it. Although Connor started being skeptical about everything, the roles were still clear.

I-Like-Pie45
08-25-2014, 03:09 PM
A World War II game where you play as an Assassins on the side of the Axis

Ultimate Moral Ambiguity

RinoTheBouncer
08-25-2014, 03:18 PM
AC:IV was not black and white. It was morally grey like AC:3.

For Edward it was, yeah since he basically didn’t belong here or there and he was just doing missions for both sides not knowing who’s good and who’s bad but I kinda felt like the Templars were obviously bad guys. There wasn’t much to debate about them. While for example Haytham really convinced me of a lot of things and same for Al Mualim.

Fatal-Feit
08-25-2014, 04:18 PM
For Edward it was, yeah since he basically didn’t belong here or there and he was just doing missions for both sides not knowing who’s good and who’s bad but I kinda felt like the Templars were obviously bad guys. There wasn’t much to debate about them. While for example Haytham really convinced me of a lot of things and same for Al Mualim.

I agree with that to end extent. The Templars did get more screen time, and arguably more charming characters in AC:3, but they weren't the bad guys. They have sympathetic morals and goals that are arguably more justified than Edward and the Assassins. For example, the west indies Templars were also tired of the crown. Tired of all the taxes, false promises, and lies. That is why they wanted the crystal skull to blackmail. Compare that to, well... What did the pirates do with all the freedom for the past two years? Literally nothing. They pissed it all away. Ben Hornigold, Burgess, and Cockram all had a point.


Sorry, but where was ACIII 'morally grey'? Templars are bad, Assassins are good (okay, maybe that's not entirely true) but the game had much black-white thinking in it. Although Connor started being skeptical about everything, the roles were still clear.

The Templars' actions were considered bad, but their goals weren't. They wanted freedom, but not the way the rebels or Connor wanted. And if anything, their methods would have caused a whole lot less bloodshed. For example, if Johnson bought the natives' lands, it would be his property and in theory, no one can disturb the natives as long as he's in control.

CoachAssassin
08-25-2014, 04:24 PM
Well in previous games except ACBF we saw the story purely from the assasins POV, we saw what he was seeing and got connected with him. If he has the commitment to kill these people because he truly believes they are evil, we will too. Altair doubted his targets intentions, thats why we see doubtful character kills as well. These upcoming games are products prepared or delivered by Abstergo with possible hacked versions. We will see stories much more from the templars side, instead of morally gray.


I just hope it doesn't end in happy cohesion with templassins fighting to save the world.


Don't ship that mayrice, don't.


















I'm dead serious... don't.

ze_topazio
08-25-2014, 04:43 PM
Everything is morally grey provided you agree with them to an extent, even Rodrigo and Cesare, Rodrigo never explained why he so desperately wanted to open the vault, one can assume it was for the greatness of the order, Cesare wanted to unite Italy to put an end to the constant conflicts as explained by Lucrecia.

However the Templars are black to me, because I can't possibly agree with them, the only Templars who truly explained their methods and purposes were the ones from the first game, no matter how good their intentions were, they sounded like crazy men, same for Haytham, he spoke of peace but like all the other Templars his final goal was a dictatorship.

The Templars speak of peace and good intentions all the time but their methods and final objectives are clearly evil, and they have always been portrayed as evil, sometimes more subtly than others but always as being the ones in the wrong.

Helforsite
08-25-2014, 05:07 PM
@ze_topzio:
What the hell are you talking about? The Templar's goal is peace through control. They are however prepared to do anything to gain that control and peace which often involves violence. Does that make them bad? Maybe.
The Assassin's goal is also peace, but contrary to the Templars, they want the people to be free even if that means destruction, war, murder etc. Does that make them good? Maybe.

Hans684
08-25-2014, 05:08 PM
Sorry, but where was ACIII 'morally grey'? Templars are bad, Assassins are good (okay, maybe that's not entirely true) but the game had much black-white thinking in it. Although Connor started being skeptical about everything, the roles were still clear.

Do you call criminals with a creed good, or is it just regarding AC? And Connor started a war, yet he's good but if Templars do their bad. Double standards. Consider you view Assassins kinda good only shows how much grayness we need, any story ideas? Don't hold back anything unless it's black and white, that's not the kinda stories this thread aim for.


I like your idea. I’m interesting in seeing the Assassins going through dark times and corruption and I’m totally WITH moral grayness cause that’s what ACI was. Yes, some of the villains were bad in an exaggerated way, but the speeches we had with them made the differences become gray rather than black and white and that’s what I loved about it. ACII, AC:B and AC:R are my favorites but those mainly had the typical “bad” villains, most of the time and there wasn’t much debate about who’s right.

Thing is that I don't want dark times and corruption, if we have it that way it would just be corrupt Assassins. They'd be directly bad if it was an Assassin Civil War. No corrupt brotherhood during an Assassin Civil War, we'd play the "good" side anyway if that happen. Think about it this way, there is a major disagreement within the how to do things and what to focus on, so they reach a point where one side says "Fuc!k It" and leaves with those who agree. So we end up with 5+ Mafia groups(the split order) and each with it's own Mentor etc...They split up but no corruption, after a quiet while(days, months etc...(depends on a Mafia history). Their goals and way of working collide and couses them to fight each other. A dark age but not a corrupt one. Or have everyone corrupt and make the Templars "good" by being cops etc... Hunting the mafia. Like this guy but as an Assassin Mentor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Riina <--- This fella is still controversial. It might be to soon but they we can go further back in Mafia history.


I loved how ACIII got that feeling back with Haytham and it faded away again with ACIV:BF.

Read some history on Torres, you can find the same in the AC Encyclopedia. Torres in and his order is the nicest one so far. The only one that can be labeled bad is our captain Woodes Rogers, he's a slaver. He's actually the only slaver in the order and he got thrown out of Templars in England for it.


I’ll be really happy to see such stuff happening, linking the Assassins to the Mafia, and then having this whole civil war between them. It’s interesting and perhaps you can be Templar agent who ends up allying with the “good Assassins” for one reason or another and ends up respecting what they stand for and help them against the corrupt ones..etc. I’d also love to see a game about the Illuminati, perhaps. I mean so many conspiracy theories talk about the Freemasons or the Bavarian Illuminati existing before and vanishing and others say they exist until now and they just control everything from behind the scenes. From one look, they appear to be the Templars who seek control and are known for wealth and power.

The Mafia is hardly any good(read the link), the Templars would be the good guys ending the chaos coused by a disagreement leading to murders left and right. A good moment for a Templar protagonist who is a cop hunting the Assassins(Mafia), I'm not that good at history but Bmark can clean any incorrections. I simply can't see the Templar Agent(and cop) allying with any of the split orders. It's far to chaotic during the time that she/he would only support the Templars even more. Sure the can be a few true Assassins but without supporters themselves they'd hunted and assassinated with twice as much force than Shay ever will have. They be sleeping with the fishes before sunrise. While I love the idea of an illuminati AC it might make things even worse consider the current situation, their the ones behind the scenes just like Assassins and Templars. I can't see it happen anytime soon but if they appear they won't be as relevant as the Assassins/Templars and the First Civ. I expect them to be like an old school Initiates watching but only act when it's right/wrong for ? purpose.


I remember a member here long ago saying something interesting about them which is that “they’re the illuminated/enlightened ones, the ones who work in the darkness to serve the light” so that makes them more like Assassins. So who knows? I believe this topic itself is worthy of discussion and it’s a real life conspiracy theory and a large part of it is a fact regarding their origins in back in the 13th century.

It does fit both, this thread is for stories pushed to questionable limits. Illuminati has just as much to do with it. Make the thread if you want, it might be best.

ze_topazio
08-25-2014, 05:27 PM
@ze_topzio:
What the hell are you talking about? The Templar's goal is peace through control. They are however prepared to do anything to gain that control and peace which often involves violence. Does that make them bad? Maybe.
The Assassin's goal is also peace, but contrary to the Templars, they want the people to be free even if that means destruction, war, murder etc. Does that make them good? Maybe.

The Templars goal is to create a worldwide dictatorship no matter what they say, they are even willing to use mind control, have you ever heard of a free and peaceful dictatorship that ended well? is there any purpose in living like a zombie? they want peace but their way of achieving peace is definitely wrong.

Hans684
08-25-2014, 05:55 PM
The Templars goal is to create a worldwide dictatorship no matter what they say, they are even willing to use mind control, have you ever heard of a free and peaceful dictatorship that ended well? is there any purpose in living like a zombie? they want peace but their way of achieving peace is definitely wrong.

And the assassins is going to create worldwide chaos for free will. Assassins have used mind control, no one cares what the assassins do. They could kill your family right in front of you and people would praise them for what they say. Notice I said what they say, both orders is more alike that people believe and have you ever heard of a free and peaceful anarchy that ended well? Is there any purpose to support criminals that would kill you for a "better future" with nothing to stop them? They want peace but how many they'd murder for it is wrong. Then again assassins can be compared with terrorist, they use their creed to justify the chaos.

ze_topazio
08-25-2014, 06:17 PM
The Assassins don't support anarchy and chaos, their only purpose is to stop the Templars and let humans evolve naturally, Ezio let Lorenzo in peace even though Lorenzo was a despot, Connor let Washington in peace even though Washington was a native killer and supported slavery, but the Assassins are not good since their only method is killing every Templar even if the death of said Templar can potentially create chaos, Ezio was willing to kill Rodrigo even though Rodrigo was the pope and the murder of a pope was bound to create confusion, in the long run is better to stop said Templar though even if at the cost of little confusion.

Long story short, the Templars want to decide how mankind should behave, the Assassins want to let mankind decide by themselves.

Helforsite
08-25-2014, 06:58 PM
The Templars want to control mankind to achieve peace while the Assassins want to let mankind to what they want even if that means death and destruction. Of course the Assassins dont say it like: Hey, we are going to let you have your free will so you can continue to murder eachother and destroy everything. But the Templars on the other hand are honest and say what their intentions are: taking away free willl to achieve peace. For me both are not the solution.

CoachAssassin
08-25-2014, 07:04 PM
The templars state that humanity in its whole is corrupted in it's nature and will ruin eachother if not controlled by those who mean well. They believe they are the ones to lead humanity to peace, even if it means enslaving them and robbing them of free will. Their intentions might be somewhat morally okay if you theorize about it, but there is absolutely no proof that they are able to make those decisions. The assassins are basically a reaction of nature itself, keeping the balance. They are in no way any better, just the other side of the same coin keeping that coin named humanity in balance.

Hans684
08-25-2014, 08:56 PM
The Assassins don't support anarchy and chaos, their only purpose is to stop the Templars and let humans evolve naturally, Ezio let Lorenzo in peace even though Lorenzo was a despot, Connor let Washington in peace even though Washington was a native killer and supported slavery, but the Assassins are not good since their only method is killing every Templar even if the death of said Templar can potentially create chaos, Ezio was willing to kill Rodrigo even though Rodrigo was the pope and the murder of a pope was bound to create confusion, in the long run is better to stop said Templar though even if at the cost of little confusion.

Long story short, the Templars want to decide how mankind should behave, the Assassins want to let mankind decide by themselves.

Yet they only create chaos, they purpose is to let them humanity find it's way at all cost. At all cost, the Templars is their "natural" enemy so to speak. Torres order is hardly worth killing expect Rogers(a Templar and slaver). Ezio trusted Lorenzo blindly, he was errand boy sent to deal with a few Templar(good since it's focused on the war) but the longer in the story you get the more personal Lorenzo made his contracts. He sent us to kill some guy he didn't like for some reason and had us get him a painter after killing the solider who hired him first.

"Native killer", no better than Jonson then? Jonson is better, he actually wanted it to be done without bloodshed but Connor just loves Tea Partys. One that fails he is forced(by Connor & Co due to destroying the tea) to make a deal with them but they resist so after all that the only option is force(even when he said he could protect them they said no of asked for weapons etc...), so try to kill their leaders and then gets Assassinated. At least his last option was force unlike dear Washington who's excuse was the Seven Years war and repeats that by trying again but gets stopped by Connor after Haytham revealed his orders. Haytham's involvement let him save his people. "Supported Slavery", just like Rogers. Their equal on that front but at least Rogers ain't hypocritical about it by leading a war for freedom.

And I like how you twisted it, giving Templars blame for chaos when they fight for control, equality and guidense. They usually have control over chaotic events unlike Assassins who piss in everyones beer. Rodrigo is a bad example, he was power hungry and the story was black and white. It's the Dark Age of the Templar Order. The Assassins need their own Dark Age equal treatment for gray stories, is one of the points of this thread. What the Assassins or Templars goal is depends on the era their in, Colonial Templars or Torres Templar Order is nothing like Rodrigo or MD Templars. Al Mualim is nothing like Ezio, you get the point.

Is that the only reason the Assassins isn't good? Because they kill? They don't even let their own members retire, Nikolai left the orders and they kidnaps his wife and one of his children in the middle of chaos back to Russia "for safety". Then they send one agent to get Nikolai back but the agent treated to kill his son if he didn't come, he also said they had his wife and other child but after not finding them himself he believes their dead. Anyway the Nikolai kills the agent and prepares for an attack with his son. Good people don't do that, where is freedom fighting in this situation? No where, Nikolai was more free than ever, he couldn't even choose his life style because of his father(Assassin(just like Desmond)). So much for freedom right? I could give more examples but I have a feeling it won't matter anyway, correct?

Helforsite
08-25-2014, 09:02 PM
Yet they only create chaos, they purpose is to let them humanity find it's way at all cost. At all cost, the Templars is their "natural" enemy so to speak. Torres order is hardly worth killing expect Rogers(a Templar and slaver). Ezio trusted Lorenzo blindly, he was errand boy sent to deal with a few Templar(good since it's focused on the war) but the longer in the story you get the more personal Lorenzo made his contracts. He sent us to kill some guy he didn't like for some reason and had us get him a painter after killing the solider who hired him first.

"Native killer", no better than Jonson then? Jonson is better, he actually wanted it to be done without bloodshed but Connor just loves Tea Partys. One that fails he is forced(by Connor & Co due to destroying the tea) to make a deal with them but they resist so after all that the only option is force(even when he said he could protect them they said no of asked for weapons etc...), so try to kill their leaders and then gets Assassinated. At least his last option was force unlike dear Washington who's excuse was the Seven Years war and repeats that by trying again but gets stopped by Connor after Haytham revealed his orders. Haytham's involvement let him save his people. "Supported Slavery", just like Rogers. Their equal on that front but at least Rogers ain't hypocritical about it by leading a war for freedom.

And I like how you twisted it, giving Templars blame for chaos when they fight for control, equality and guidense. They usually have control over chaotic events unlike Assassins who piss in everyones beer. Rodrigo is a bad example, he was power hungry and the story was black and white. It's the Dark Age of the Templar Order. The Assassins need their own Dark Age equal treatment for gray stories, is one of the points of this thread. What the Assassins or Templars goal is depends on the era their in, Colonial Templars or Torres Templar Order is nothing like Rodrigo or MD Templars. Al Mualim is nothing like Ezio, you get the point.

Is that the only reason the Assassins isn't good? Because they kill? They don't even let their own members retire, Nikolai left the orders and they kidnaps his wife and one of his children in the middle of chaos back to Russia "for safety". Then they send one agent to get Nikolai back but the agent treated to kill his son if he didn't come, he also said they had his wife and other child but after not finding them himself he believes their dead. Anyway the Nikolai kills the agent and prepares for an attack with his son. Good people don't do that, where is freedom fighting in this situation? No where, Nikolai was more free than ever, he couldn't even choose his life style because of his father(Assassin(just like Desmond)). So much for freedom right? I could give more examples but I have a feeling it won't matter anyway, correct?

True dat!

Hans684
08-25-2014, 09:07 PM
True dat!

Thanks but I'm not pro-Assassin or pro-Templars, I'd give them equal judgment as I can. I don't see "good guys", only bad guys killing bad guys for a "better future" when what both only do is creating chaos(the A vs T War) because of different views.

RinoTheBouncer
08-25-2014, 10:44 PM
Do you call criminals with a creed good, or is it just regarding AC? And Connor started a war, yet he's good but if Templars do their bad. Double standards. Consider you view Assassins kinda good only shows how much grayness we need, any story ideas? Don't hold back anything unless it's black and white, that's not the kinda stories this thread aim for.



Thing is that I don't want dark times and corruption, if we have it that way it would just be corrupt Assassins. They'd be directly bad if it was an Assassin Civil War. No corrupt brotherhood during an Assassin Civil War, we'd play the "good" side anyway if that happen. Think about it this way, there is a major disagreement within the how to do things and what to focus on, so they reach a point where one side says "Fuc!k It" and leaves with those who agree. So we end up with 5+ Mafia groups(the split order) and each with it's own Mentor etc...They split up but no corruption, after a quiet while(days, months etc...(depends on a Mafia history). Their goals and way of working collide and couses them to fight each other. A dark age but not a corrupt one. Or have everyone corrupt and make the Templars "good" by being cops etc... Hunting the mafia. Like this guy but as an Assassin Mentor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Riina <--- This fella is still controversial. It might be to soon but they we can go further back in Mafia history.



Read some history on Torres, you can find the same in the AC Encyclopedia. Torres in and his order is the nicest one so far. The only one that can be labeled bad is our captain Woodes Rogers, he's a slaver. He's actually the only slaver in the order and he got thrown out of Templars in England for it.



The Mafia is hardly any good(read the link), the Templars would be the good guys ending the chaos coused by a disagreement leading to murders left and right. A good moment for a Templar protagonist who is a cop hunting the Assassins(Mafia), I'm not that good at history but Bmark can clean any incorrections. I simply can't see the Templar Agent(and cop) allying with any of the split orders. It's far to chaotic during the time that she/he would only support the Templars even more. Sure the can be a few true Assassins but without supporters themselves they'd hunted and assassinated with twice as much force than Shay ever will have. They be sleeping with the fishes before sunrise. While I love the idea of an illuminati AC it might make things even worse consider the current situation, their the ones behind the scenes just like Assassins and Templars. I can't see it happen anytime soon but if they appear they won't be as relevant as the Assassins/Templars and the First Civ. I expect them to be like an old school Initiates watching but only act when it's right/wrong for ? purpose.



It does fit both, this thread is for stories pushed to questionable limits. Illuminati has just as much to do with it. Make the thread if you want, it might be best.

I agree with your thoughts. I think anything that has to do with a mess within the brotherhood or something that makes the Templars play a good role or perhaps ally with some Assassins over others would be very interesting.

I made a thread about the Illuminati, by the way ;)


The Templars goal is to create a worldwide dictatorship no matter what they say, they are even willing to use mind control, have you ever heard of a free and peaceful dictatorship that ended well? is there any purpose in living like a zombie? they want peace but their way of achieving peace is definitely wrong.

Can’t help but remembering this when I look at your awesome signature :P

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m19eyr2yFf1qd5roro1_500.gif