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p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 10:28 AM
had a quick look at hardballs program thingy and thought id compair to mossie specs i have.

the mossie we will have ( IV ) will struggle to out run a 109 f2 and above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

mossie speed is 380mph (612) or with the saxophone exhausts 366 (589kph) at 6400metres. we got the saxophone exausts :|

109 f2 does 614 at 5,200metres according to hardball
so we can run from that if we higher...

F4 does 637 at 5,800metres http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i dont have a sea level speed for the mossie, but its gotta do over 300mph tobe competitive.

funny enuff all ive read is interception was very hard cos of mossies speed. had about 5mph over 190 in book i read (with the saxophone exhausts) and didnt say what 190...

so we may well end up with a useless mossie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
i hope im wrong :\

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p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 10:28 AM
had a quick look at hardballs program thingy and thought id compair to mossie specs i have.

the mossie we will have ( IV ) will struggle to out run a 109 f2 and above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

mossie speed is 380mph (612) or with the saxophone exhausts 366 (589kph) at 6400metres. we got the saxophone exausts :|

109 f2 does 614 at 5,200metres according to hardball
so we can run from that if we higher...

F4 does 637 at 5,800metres http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i dont have a sea level speed for the mossie, but its gotta do over 300mph tobe competitive.

funny enuff all ive read is interception was very hard cos of mossies speed. had about 5mph over 190 in book i read (with the saxophone exhausts) and didnt say what 190...

so we may well end up with a useless mossie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
i hope im wrong :\

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JG52Uther
06-27-2004, 10:44 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .Axis pilot here! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/me109JG1.jpg JG52 The Butcherbirds

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 10:50 AM
your not a very good luftyboy
for a start u have a 109 but it says butcher bird?


mossie caused hell for the germans, no wonder your pleased http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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JG52Uther
06-27-2004, 10:57 AM
Fly both pingu!it is quite sad though as it would be nice to see a mossie up against a jU88c(castrated mossie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif)

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/me109JG1.jpg JG52 The Butcherbirds

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 11:03 AM
ahhaha
the mossie was a far better night fighter than ju88 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
4x 20mm hispano eats anything im afraid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

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DeBaer.534
06-27-2004, 12:25 PM
umm, the Ju88 Nightfighters (G) have 4/6 20mm cannons, too....

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 12:29 PM
yeah, but slower http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
better at taking out bombers, but not other night fighters.
like p51 vs 109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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DeBaer.534
06-27-2004, 12:31 PM
i know the speed difference.
but from what you posted, it sounded like the weapons were the main reason for the mossie to be better.
and no, its not like P51 and Bf109.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 12:33 PM
:P
well mossie went after night fighters (admittiedly large ones) and ju88 went after lancs etc.
so http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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DeBaer.534
06-27-2004, 12:36 PM
agreed.
but then i could bring up the Me262 nightfighters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif
ok, lets stop it here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Mossie is a nice plane, looking forward to it.

No601_prangster
06-27-2004, 01:08 PM
The sea level speed of the mossie was 354MPH only just slower than it's high altitude performance. This chart shows the performance of a MKVI at combat load with exaust covers and slip tanks.
http://www.ijeremiah.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/perform.jpg
So stay low and fast and Jerry wont catch you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Prangster
No.601 Squadron
Tangmere Pilots
http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/

JG52Uther
06-27-2004, 01:15 PM
My old headmaster at school was a mossie navigator,they got shot down in France and he got thrown out when they crash landed.The pilot died. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif.....There is a scene in the film 633 Squadron just like that!

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/me109JG1.jpg JG52 The Butcherbirds

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 01:55 PM
yay http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

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p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 02:06 PM
about the same as the 190 A6 then, but we can drop tanks and bombs aswell http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

190a9 does 588 kph = 365.366261 mph at SL.
cmon prise off those saxophones, u know u want too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
D9 does 600 kph = 372.822715 mph
LA73xb20 is fastest prop ingame at 613 kph = 380.900541 mph

i didnt realise the curve was so flat, most planes get way faster. i think later mark mossies where really good up high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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VW-IceFire
06-27-2004, 02:41 PM
Pingu, the one we'd be flying is the Mark VI which is the fighter version. While the top speeds aren't as high as the top speeds of other aircraft, the reality is that the acceleration and average speed ability give the Mossie and advantage against a fighter attempting to manuver for intercept.

Unless the fighter has substantial altitude advantage, the Mossie flying in a straight line and not loosing any energy will have the speed advantage.

Depends on the situation.

I've read about a night fighter Mosquito that closed the gap between it and a FW190 that it was pursuing. Blew the guy out of the sky with his cannons in a very short burst.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 03:58 PM
read that too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
u have a point, i got my I and V round the wrong way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif
VI got that big cannon tho didnt it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

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No601_prangster
06-27-2004, 04:07 PM
An early air ministry report on the Mossie:

DE HAVILLAND MOSQUITO IV

BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE AIRCRAFT
General
The Mosquito is a mid-wing monoplane of wooden monocoque construction, powered
with two Merlin 21 engines of 1,150 hp each. The bomber version carries no
armament. The present maximum all-up weight of the aircraft is 19,400 pounds.
This constitutes a full load of petrol and 1,500 pounds of bombs and gives a
total operational range of approximately 1,400miles. With long-range tanks
fitted in the bomb bay it is capable of about 1,800 miles. Crew The crew of two
consists of a pilot and an observer, who also acts as bomb-aimer, radio operator
and navigator.

Cockpit
The pilot's cockpit is well laid out though a trifle cramped and this together
with the pilot's upright position may cause fatigue on a long flight. The
various controls and instruments are well placed and easily accessible. The
pilot sits on the left side and the observer normally sits beside the pilot
where he carries out his duties as navigator, radio operator and look-out. The
bomb sight is situated in the nose forward of the pilot and it is necessary for
the observer to move into this position before bombing. A clear view panel is
provided for bomb aiming. The heating of the cockpit is exceptionally good, and
even in winter at altitude no bulky flying clothing need be worn. In summer the
cockpit may prove to be rather too warm .


View
The crew have a good view above the horizontal to the sides, front and above and
can see moderately well to the rear. Their view downwards and backwards,
however, into the area they must search carefully is particularly bad, partly
due to the blind spot and partly to the fact that both members of the crew are
facing forwards and so it is difficult for them to search thoroughly when they
can look only over their shoulders. On some occasions the observer knelt on his
seat facing backwards and this made a certain improvement. It was found during
the trials that a fighter could often approach from the rear and below without
the crew being aware of its attack. Blisters are fitted to the sides of the
cockpit but are difficult to use in full flying kit. Experiments were carried
out with mirrors in the blisters and these were found to be a definite advantage
for keeping a look-out to the rear and slightly below.

Armour
The pilot is protected from behind by armour plate of 7mm thickness, extending
from the level of his seat to the top of his head. The observer is similarly
protected from behind by arm our plate of 9mm thickness, and there is a circular
section of bullet proof glass behind his head so that his rearward view is not
hindered. The upper part of the armour plate is hinged to enable the observer to
operate the wireless which is behind it. There is no armour protection for the
engines.

Fuel and Oil Tanks

Fuel is carried in 10 self-sealing tanks as follows: 4 Outboard wing of 118
galls 4 Inboard wing of 289 galls 2 Centre fuselage of 136 galls 543 galls 2
Fuselage long range tanks if fitted.) 155 galls TOTAL CAPACITY 698 galls Oil is
carried in two self-sealing tanks, one in each engine nacelle and a third can be
carried in the fuselage if the long range tanks are fitted.

Bomb Load

The maximum bomb load at present is 1,500 pounds and is made up of two 500
pounders and two 250 pounders. It is understood, however, that it may be
possible to increase the load to a maximum of 2,500 pounds when bombs with
collapsible fins are available.

Radio
The aircraft is fitted with the standard Marconi installation for bombers which
is satisfactory and the intercommunication between pilot and observer is very
good.

FLYING CHARACTERISTICS
The Mosquito is very manoeuvrable both light and fully loaded. The controls are
light and positive at all speeds, the rudder being rather heavier than the
elevators or ailerons.

Performance
The Mosquito is capable of a high top speed. Comparative trials were carried out
with a Spitfire VB in which both aircraft carried full operational loads. The
Mosquito carried a full load of petrol and 1,000 pounds of bombs throughout the
majority of the trials, though very little difference was noticed when the bombs
were removed. At 21,000 feet without using emergency boost the Mosquito appeared
4 to 5 mph faster than the Spitfire which was using its emergency boost in an
attempt to keep up. This gives the Mosquito a true top speed of about 375 mph.
At 600 feet both aircraft attained approximately the same speed but the Spitfire
was again using emergency boost while the Mosquito was not. Above 24,000 feet
the performance of the Mosquito appears to fall off in comparison with the
Spitfire.

The Mosquito climbs quickly, especially when light. At its maximum rate of climb
it can reach 20,000 feet in just over 9 minutes from the start of the take-off
run, which is only about 2\1/2 minutes longer than the time taken by a Spitfire.
The addition of bomb load does not seriously detract from its performance. The
operational ceiling appears to be around 30,000 feet. When diving the Mosquito
accelerates well and in a slight dive at altitude quickly reaches the limiting
speed of 360 mph indicated.

Single-engine flying was carried out with each engine feathered in turn and it
was found that the Mosquito can maintain height and climb comfortably on one
engine, there being enough rudder trim available to enable the aircraft to be
flown hands off. Again the bomb load of 1,000 pounds appears to make very little
difference to the single-engined handling. Turns with and against the live
engine were carried out with ease.

Instrument Flying
The blind flying panel is well placed and instrument flying is comfortable. At
cruising speeds the aircraft is very stable and can be trimmed easily to fly
hands off. No difficulty was experienced in night flying, the lighting being
good for all-essential instruments and cockpit controls without causing
reflections on the cockpit hood. The exhaust flames, however, which cannot be
seen from the cockpit, are rather bright when viewed from behind. Formation
Flying No second Mosquito was available for testing the qualities of the
aircraft in formation, but it is thought that this will present no difficulty.
Since formation is normally resorted to only by aircraft having defensive
armament in order to give mutual fire support, there is unlikely to be any need
for unarmed aircraft to fly operationally in formation. This would simply
present a larger target to Flak and fighters and hamper evasive action.

FIGHTING MANOEUVRES
General
Interceptions and attacks were attempted by Spitfire V aircraft at various
altitudes. If the fighter was allowed to close range, the Mosquito was unable to
throw it off as its lower safety factor of 6 does not allow sufficiently violent
manoeuvring with safety. Owing to the high speed and light elevator control of
the Mosquito, high acceleration forces are easily imposed but will normally be
avoided as the upright position of the crew reduces the amount of 'g' that can
be withstood without 'blacking out'. If the Mosquito is cruising fast, the only
present-day fighters which are likely to be dangerous will have to dive down
from a greater height than the Mosquito in order to attain enough speed to carry
out an attack. Those that are climbing up from below will never come in range
and any on the same level as the Mosquito, if seen in time, can be kept out of
range if the Mosquito accelerates quickly.

Search
The Mosquito having no armament, the only tactics open to it are evasion either
by speed or manoeuvrability. The key to the effectiveness of either lies in
seeing the fighter in time and the view of the crew, though good forward and
above the horizontal, is very blind backwards and downwards. A sharp lookout is
essential at all times, especially in a danger area, and wide weaving is
necessary to keep the blind spots in view as much as possible, otherwise a
fighter can dive down and overtake slightly below to carry out an attack without
being seen at all. It was found very difficult even with quite wide weaving to
pick up a single fighter which was more than I,OOO feet below. During the trials
a few successful fighter attacks were not observed at all although the crew were
expecting the attacks, due partly to the blind spot and partly to the difficulty
of searching thoroughly in any direction other than that in which they were
facing. In particular when approaching the target area, when the observer is
over the bomb sight, the pilot must try to cover the whole area of search behind
and below by himself. This difficult task was eased considerably by adjusting
the mirror fitted in the starboard blister to help in covering the starboard
quarter.

High Altitude
The best performance of the Mosquito being obtained at 21,000 feet, the majority
of altitude interceptions and attacks were carried out at or just above this
height. The Mosquito being superior in speed to the Spitfire at all heights
below about 24,000 feet, its best evasion was by accelerating away and
preventing the fighter coming into range. If the Spitfire attacked with a 3,000
foot advantage, the Mosquito was never able to accelerate enough from fast
cruising to prevent the Spitfire from diving down below and getting in a burst
of fire of fairly long duration from astern. But if the Spitfire was only about
2,000 feet above and 1,000 yards away on the beam, the Mosquito could get away.
In each case the Mosquito's acceleration was helped by its going into a slight
dive. It appears therefore that the best operating height is one that is above
21,000 feet, to allow the Mosquito to accelerate in a dive down to its rated
altitude.

During these trials the Mosquito had to weave and turn as soon as the Spitfire
dived down behind and below in order to keep it in view, and it attempted
evasion by means of turning when the fighter came into range. This was not
particularly effective as the Mosquito could not go into a turn at high speed
which was violent enough to throw the fighter off or upset his aim unduly at
short range.

As an alternative, when the Spitfire was coming into range the Mosquito
attempted a corkscrewing movement, diving about 500 feet in a turn and
recovering by a climb and turn in the opposite direction. During the first
attempts the engines cut badly at the top of this manoeuvre when the aircraft
was put into a dive and the movement was hardly violent enough to be effective.
RAE type restrictors as fitted to Merlin xx and 45 engines in Fighter Command
were placed in the fuel supply pipe lines and gave a great improvement,
preventing the cutting of the engines under 'negative g' and making the
manoeuvre quite effective. At high speed, pilots found it uncomfortable to make
sudden movements in the fore and aft plane and at heights above about 20,000
feet it felt as if this evasion was so slight that it was not putting the
fighter off his aim. In actual fact it has been found that very slight movements
by a target travelling at high-speed forces a fighter pilot to allow
considerable deflection and this form of evasion, even at altitude, usually
prevented the fighter from taking an accurate aim. Since the fighter on occasion
was able to remain in range dead astern for a considerable period, this evasion
was found necessary and more effective for upsetting his aim at long range than
an attempt to turn. It had the added advantage of allowing the Mosquito to
remain more or less on its original course.

Medium Altitude
The Mosquito's performance at low altitudes still being superior to that of the
Spitfire, similar results were obtained at the rated altitude for the 'M'
Supercharger, i.e. about 15,000 feet, but the corkscrewing movement was easier
to carry out at this height. If the Mosquito therefore is unable to operate as
high as 21,000 feet it should try to fly slightly above 15,000 feet in order to
benefit from the acceleration picked up in a dive down to the lower rated
altitude.

Low Altitude
Trials were also carried out below 1,000 feet in a similar way to those at
altitude and with similar results. The Mosquito had afar better chance of
spotting fighters as they were usually attacking from above and if seen in time
it could always accelerate away. The forward view from the Mosquito being
extremely good, low flying can be carried out quite easily and with practice
fairly steep turns and evasive manoeuvres can be carried out at high speed. Such
turns provided more effective evasion than at altitude but even so the fighter
if in close range was presented with a fairly easy shot. The corkscrewing
manoeuvre, however, could be carried out far more easily than at altitude and
was the more effective, especially as the fighter was frequently forced into the
slipstream which he found particularly uncomfortable near the ground.

Effects of Opening the Bomb Doors
The reduction in speed caused by opening the bomb doors and the time to open and
close were noted, and attacks were carried out on the Mosquito with the bomb
doors open. It was found that at a high cruising speed the Mosquito lost about
20 mph over a period of 3 minutes by opening the bomb doors. The doors opened in
13 seconds and closed in II seconds and the time taken to accelerate back to the
original speed was approximately 30 seconds from the commencement of closing.
During the attacks which were subsequently carried out at 24,000 feet, it was
found that the Mosquito could just keep out of range of a fighter seen for
instance 2,000 feet above and 1,200 yards away if the bomb doors were closed
immediately and the Mosquito accelerated in a slight dive. During attacks
carried out at 1,000 feet, however, the doors had to be closed while the fighter
was much further away, as it was impossible for the Mosquito to dive far to gain
speed.

Evasion by Climbing
The rate of climb of the Mosquito being so good, a few attacks were carried out
while it flew between 1,000 and 2,000 feet below cloud. Unless the fighter was
allowed to get nearer than 1,000 yards, the Mosquito had no trouble in gaining
cloud cover . Slipstream The slipstream behind the Mosquito covers only a very
small area and is encountered on the level, being most noticeable slightly to
port. Though strong from 400 yards inwards, it did not disturb the fighters
except when the Mosquito was at very low altitude and corkscrewing, when they
flew into it frequently and found difficulty in sighting. At 600 yards and over
its effects were negligible.

Prangster
No.601 Squadron
Tangmere Pilots
http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/

[This message was edited by No601_prangster on Sun June 27 2004 at 04:06 PM.]

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 04:51 PM
:O Nice report http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Magister__Ludi
06-27-2004, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
had a quick look at hardballs program thingy and thought id compair to mossie specs i have.

the mossie we will have ( IV ) will struggle to out run a 109 f2 and above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

mossie speed is 380mph (612) or with the saxophone exhausts 366 (589kph) at 6400metres. we got the saxophone exausts :|

109 f2 does 614 at 5,200metres according to hardball
so we can run from that if we higher...

F4 does 637 at 5,800metres http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i dont have a sea level speed for the mossie, but its gotta do over 300mph tobe competitive.

funny enuff all ive read is interception was very hard cos of mossies speed. had about 5mph over 190 in book i read (with the saxophone exhausts) and didnt say what 190...

so we may well end up with a useless mossie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
i hope im wrong :\

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


pingu, a bomber does not need to be faster than the fighters to be difficult to intercept. A fighter has to locate the bomber, climb to bomber altitude then try to close in within the fire range. If the bomber is fast it becomes very difficult to catch. At the beginning of the war a bomber that had a max speed of around 450km/h was considered a fast bomber. Later in the war this thresold rise to 550km/h.

Light bombers that had a speed above 600km/h were considered nearly impossible to intercept. In this category there weren't many planes. Mosquito is one such example. Bf-110 was another light bomber very difficult to catch - though it did not have an internal bomb bay, it usually carried the same bomb load with Mossie. Me-210C and Me-410 series are another fine examples. Ar-234B were fast bombers though mostly used as recce planes. Ju-388 series were medium bombers (not light bombers) that could fly at speeds above 600km/h (with smaller bomb bay and Jumo213 with MW50 they could even fly at 700km/h) though, like Ar-234, they were used as recce planes.

My favorite here is Me-210C & Me410. It was as fast as Mossie (the bomber and fighter bomber variants) but it also had defensive armament, therefore it wasn't constricted to fly at night (as Mossie flew most of the time). It could dive bomb so it was capable of accurate bombing, and thanks to the glazed nose it could dive bomb at smaller angles than Stuka with similar precision. Mossie was strictly a level bomber and was never an accurate bomber. Bombing accuracy was out of the question since most variants were fighter bombers that did not even have a bombsight (and a glazed nose). They just did low level bombing (though the visibility from the cockpit to the ground was very bad) or they launched the bombs when the command was given from a glazed nose Mossie. In plus Me-410 could maneuver like a fighter (not with a bombload of course), it was limited to 7G like a fighter should be. Mossie was limited to 3G like any other level bomber. Do not expect to blackout with Mossie (and keep the wings on).

It's very difficult to understand why Me-210C series was not produced instead of Bf-110F and G series. It's true that DB603 was not available in '42, but DB605 was. IIRC there were over 3500 Bf-110F and G series produced from 1942 on. Me-210C was available for production from '42 and did not have any of the Me-210A problems. Why produce Bf-110G when Me-210C was a much more capable light bomber?

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 05:45 PM
mossie was bar far the most acurate bomber the allies had.
u dont know how many low level raids mossies did against the gestapo.
at below rooftop height http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

and the 210 had lots of problems..

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p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 05:51 PM
210 specs according to hardball (as in il2 i guess)

SL us 461 kmph, 6,7000 is 583

so mossie speed up high nearly (ish), but not down low.
thats compaired to IV mossie aswell...

there was a 410 with rear gunner or guns, faster but not liked at all because wasnt fast enuff

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Magister__Ludi
06-27-2004, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
mossie was bar far the most acurate bomber the allies had.
u dont know how many low level raids mossies did against the gestapo.
at below rooftop height http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

and the 210 had lots of problems..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any bomber that drops the bombs from 50m can do it accurately. Its nothing special to it. But this kind of bombing restricts you to targets that are lightly defended by flak.

And "210 had lots of problems" is something very generic. Only first 80 planes had problems, the rest of them were completed as Me-210C which had no problem. Unfortunatelly first 80 planes were sent in service, despite their stability problems.

The story of those first Me-210A is not very well known. Me-210 originated in a prewar specification that requested a new twin engine fighter bomber. Me-210 and Ar-240 were competing for contracts. And despite what various websites say Me-210 was not awarded a contract. Instead Milch requested a modification of Bf-110C powered by the yet on the drawing boards DB603 and having an internal bombload of 500lb.

Messerschmitt saw the oportunity to launch the production of Me-210 despite the fact that it design was not yet completed. Without consulting Milch but with Udet's approval he lauched the production thinking that even if problems would have been encountered on first machines produced they would be easily rectified, until the DB603 reaches production.

When Milch found out he was outraged. He suspended imediatelly the production and the unfinished (untested) aircrafts were sent to service, problably to undermine the very good image Messerchmitt had among high ranked LW officials (this conflict poisoned completely the relationship between Milch and Messerschmitt). Of course those machines were almost imediatelly lost in accidents and though a modification that corrected all the problems was ready it wasn't applied.

Hungary however bought some uncompleted airframes with the modification plans and launched its own production line. The aircraft called Me-210C served with great success and the pilots were very pleased about the plane. IIRC almost half of the Hungarian Me-210C served with Luftwaffe. Me-410 was basically a Me-210C fitted with more powerful DB-603 instead of DB-605.

[This message was edited by Magister__Ludi on Sun June 27 2004 at 05:53 PM.]

Magister__Ludi
06-27-2004, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
210 specs according to hardball (as in il2 i guess)

SL us 461 kmph, 6,7000 is 583

so mossie speed up high nearly (ish), but not down low.
thats compaired to IV mossie aswell...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a mistake. Me-210C was as fast as Bf-110G. And because they were fitted with the same engines, if max speed at altitude is the same, then the max speed at sea level is the same, roughly slightly over 500km/h. Me-410 was doing 550km/h at sea level.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
there was a 410 with rear gunner or guns, faster but not liked at all because wasnt fast enuff
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Me-410 was not liked? who told you this??

Bewolf
06-27-2004, 07:04 PM
I think Oleg once said, in trials russians prefered the 410 over the mossie. No idea what version though. It's years ago.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

mhuxt
06-28-2004, 12:32 AM
Hiya:

Let me chime in at this point. That speed curve, the fast one, is for a Mosquito FB. VI using 150-octane fuel, +25 lbs/sq.in boost (well, +23.9 to be exact), ejector (stub) exhausts and drop tanks.

The slower speed curve is for the same aircraft with 100-Octane, +18 lbs/sq.in boost, saxophone exhausts and drop tanks.

The remainder of that report indicates another FB.VI, used for earlier speed tests, was sub-par and not representative.

If I had data for a "clean" representative VI with ejectors, I'd post it. I'm not sure it exists. If it does, it's in the Public Records Office in the U.K. I'm in Sydney, so...

The saxophone exhausts (basically for flame damping) were acknowledged from earlier tests to knock 10-15 mph off top speed. The drop tanks took off a further 5. Obviously, the flame dampers were used for night operations, however the speed effect of ejector exhausts were known from the earliest operations, and Mosquitos fitted accordingly.

As for accurate - both bombers and fighter-bombers hit individual structures at low level, despite local defences (airfields, V-1 sites, railway stations, power stations, factories, you name it). They tended to do better at low level than, for example, Blenheims and Venturas, though of course there was at least one famous raid in which dozens of Lancs raided successfully from low level in daylight.

Cheers,

Mark

p1ngu666
06-28-2004, 02:35 AM
the single pilot 410 wasnt liked cos only a little faster, and it was ment to go after b17's.
was easy meat for a p51, 410 was faster but not enuff and out numbered etc.
no secrety of rear gunner aswell

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BennyMoore
06-28-2004, 03:17 AM
In short, yet another cool aircraft is porked.

NegativeGee
06-28-2004, 04:01 AM
It is sometimes difficult to look at the Me 210/410 objectively because of its difficult development. In addition negative combat reports (that are widely quoted in histories) when the type was sent against escorted heavy bomber formations tend to crop up despite the fact that no 2 seater twin in service with any airforce at that time could have expected significantly better surviability in such a dangerous role.

The 210 is interesting as it shows what can happen when unreserved faith is placed in a manufacturer (in this case Messerschmitt AG) to deliver a new design, without either evidence of flight performance or any serious competition being considered (the Ar-240 was, in the RLM's eyes at least a "token" alternative).

Contracts for production (1000 "off the drawing board"- note the similarity between the Me-210 and Martin B-26 Marauder in this regard) and supply were drawn up for the 210 from the designs origins in 1938, so Dr Ing Hermann Wurster's report of the first test flight in 1939 came as a great shock as the airplane suffered longitudinal instability that not only presented a severe handicap to its performance as a bomber and a gun platform but was actually dangerous to the aircraft itself.

To rememdy the issues the flight test had raised required significant re-design of the 210- in particular a lenthening of the rear fuselage. This in itself was not a problem apart from the fact large quantities of parts to fit the aircraft had already been produced and tooled for. In light of this, the fuselage lengthening was not carried out by Messerschmitt and the 210 was stuck with the worst of its dangerous flight characteristics (although some redesigning did take place at this stage, such as the adoption of a single tail fin and a wider tail plane).

With its contractual obligations looming, Messerschmitt pressed ahead with testing and the first production aircraft were assembled in 1941.

It was not until 352 Me-210's had been built/entered assembly that Messerschmitt was finally ordered to lengthen the fuselage by the RLM, and Goring also took the step of suspending the production run until the problems were rectified (and the famous demand for Willy Messerschmitt's resignation from the Me's Board of Directors- although this seems to have been another another episode in the Milch/Willy Messerschmitt personal emnity contest). The much needed correction arrived in March 1942 with Me-210 V17 which incorporated an extension of the rear fuselage.

By the start of 1943 much progess had been made- the new engines and redesigned wing saw the appearance of the Me 410, and along with re-enginnered 210's and improvements to the FDL 131 system saw the type finally furfill its potential. It is perhaps a little ironic that the type only reached production in time for 1160 or so examples to be made between January 1943 and September 1944, and at a time when the war situation forced it to be deployed in uses which limited its success.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Günther Rall

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Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Wannabe-Pilot
06-28-2004, 04:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:

It's very difficult to understand why Me-210C series was not produced instead of Bf-110F and G series. It's true that DB603 was not available in '42, but DB605 was. IIRC there were over 3500 Bf-110F and G series produced from 1942 on. Me-210C was available for production from '42 and did not have any of the Me-210A problems. Why produce Bf-110G when Me-210C was a much more capable light bomber?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering the same thing. The whole 210/410 series was a major improvement over the 110. Once the 210 overcame its teething problems (which any aircraft will have, it's inevitable), it was just as fast as the latest 110 G model, with better manuverability, stronger defensive armament, and with more potential to evolve into a fast light bomber (having an internal bomb bay so as not to impede performance with a full bomb load). Also, the 110 was nearing the end of its operational life, its airframe was already upgraded to its full potential it reached its peak, while the 210 series still had a lot of untaped strenght, as the 410 will show. The overall appearance of the plane was very elegant and sleek, and with more powerful engines it could well pass the 600 kph mark.

On the other hand, since it carried 2 crew members, it could still be used in the nightfighting role, which was the primary battleground for the 110 from '42 onwards, even more successfully since it was faster.

Truly a very strange decision not to go ahead with mass production of this aircraft in favour of the 110.. The output of 110 in 1942 was 580, and it went up to 1580 in 1943 and 1525 in 1944. Even though many production lines were already changed to start producing 210 in 1941, the German industry had to shift back to producing 110 after the 210 didn't prove itself in combat immediatelly. Couldn't they just waited a little while longer with all these changes at the factories for the 210 to come of age, and continue producing the 110 in the meantime, and then go for an all out mass output of this improved Zerstorer once the design was perfected, from 1942 onwards? Instead they fumbled with the production lines which had an adverse effect on the production of an already established and badly needed (as a night fighter and ground attack) 110 only to drop the whole thing like a hot potato and produce more than three times as many 110 in the 1942-44 period than the more advanced 210 or 410. Barely 1000+ examples of an improved (and excellent, IMO) Me-410 were produced from early 1943- 1944, when the type was discontinued.

By the way, is anybody modelling the 410, the Mossie and the Beaufighter for Il-2? If so, when will these planes perhaps be finished?

Mr_Nakajima
06-28-2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:
My favorite here is Me-210C & Me410. It was as fast as Mossie (the bomber and fighter bomber variants) but it also had defensive armament, therefore it wasn't constricted to fly at night (as Mossie flew most of the time). It could dive bomb so it was capable of accurate bombing, and thanks to the glazed nose it could dive bomb at smaller angles than Stuka with similar precision. Mossie was strictly a level bomber and was never an accurate bomber. Bombing accuracy was out of the question since most variants were fighter bombers that did not even have a bombsight (and a glazed nose). They just did low level bombing (though the visibility from the cockpit to the ground was very bad) or they launched the bombs when the command was given from a glazed nose Mossie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the Me 410 acctually used as a dive bomber through? By the time it was in service I would have thought that the quantity of Allied AA fire was such that it would have been suicidal. The Ju 87 abandoned the dive bombing role for that very reason.

Bombing accuracy can also depend very much on the technology carried. For example, Mosquitoes with Oboe were very accurate indeed.

Edit: PS not trying to start an ***grim-style 'my aeroplane is better than your aeroplane because my country/ideology is better than yours' argument, but I have never heard that the 410 was used as a dive bomber, or was even capable of it - were crews trained to dive bomb in it, was it assigned to StG units rather than KGs, did it have dive brakes, etc? Any information gratefully received.

[This message was edited by Mr_Nakajima on Mon June 28 2004 at 11:51 AM.]

p1ngu666
06-28-2004, 12:22 PM
they was used as bombers abit, mossies shot em down over england http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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Magister__Ludi
06-28-2004, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Contracts for production (1000 "off the drawing board"- note the similarity between the Me-210 and Martin B-26 Marauder in this regard) and supply were drawn up for the 210 from the designs origins in 1938, so Dr Ing Hermann Wurster's report of the first test flight in 1939 came as a great shock as the airplane suffered longitudinal instability that not only presented a severe handicap to its performance as a bomber and a gun platform but was actually dangerous to the aircraft itself.

To rememdy the issues the flight test had raised required significant re-design of the 210- in particular a lenthening of the rear fuselage. This in itself was not a problem apart from the fact large quantities of parts to fit the aircraft had already been produced and tooled for. In light of this, the fuselage lengthening was not carried out by Messerschmitt and the 210 was stuck with the worst of its dangerous flight characteristics (although some redesigning did take place at this stage, such as the adoption of a single tail fin and a wider tail plane).

With its contractual obligations looming, Messerschmitt pressed ahead with testing and the first production aircraft were assembled in 1941.

It was not until 352 Me-210's had been built/entered assembly that Messerschmitt was finally ordered to lengthen the fuselage by the RLM, and Goring also took the step of suspending the production run until the problems were rectified (and the famous demand for Willy Messerschmitt's resignation from the Me's Board of Directors- although this seems to have been another another episode in the Milch/Willy Messerschmitt personal emnity contest). The much needed correction arrived in March 1942 with Me-210 V17 which incorporated an extension of the rear fuselage.

By the start of 1943 much progess had been made- the new engines and redesigned wing saw the appearance of the Me 410, and along with re-enginnered 210's and improvements to the FDL 131 system saw the type finally furfill its potential. It is perhaps a little ironic that the type only reached production in time for 1160 or so examples to be made between January 1943 and September 1944, and at a time when the war situation forced it to be deployed in uses which limited its success.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What is very important to note here is that RLM did NOT contracted Me-210 "off the drawing board". It contracted a Bf-110 modification with DB-603 engines and a small internal bomb bay of 500lb (Bf-110 did not have an internal bomb bay). Those are the 1000 aircrafts contracted. It was thought that the modification was minimal, so they could be delivered fast. The contract was awarded in 1940 and it was expected that those aircrafts to be ready for service in April 1941 for the start of the Russian campaign (Jenschonnek plans included those aircrafts at the moment of invasion).

Messerschmitt on the other hand knew very well that DB603 is years away from delivery date (not even DB605 was available until mid '42 and it was reserved for fighters). So he thought that he can use the money and built a new production line for Me-210 and by the time DB603 was available he will correct all the problems that could rise by producing Me-210 before the tests were completed. Apparently he did not try to negotiate a delay for the delivery date and all his enemies jumped right on his neck when his plan was revealed.

Milch found this to be the perfect occasion to demonstrate his strenghts. He suspended the production of Me-210 on April 25 1942 after the modified Me-210 demostrated excellent flight characteristics a month before (in 1942 LW was still waiting for the aircraft, which was basically ready for production in spring - Messerschmitt got an initial delay when it was clear that neither DB603 or DB605 will be available in '41). Then he forced Messerschmitt AG to pay all the contractors the materials for the 1000 scheduled planes (only materials for 370 of them were bought at that time) for a sum of 68 mil marks, basically bankrupting the company. He did not allowed to make the required modifications to the already 80 or so Me-210A already put in service with Luftwaffe. Messerschmitt AG succeded to sell the uncompleted airframes to Hungary which completed the planes and demonstrated that Me-210 with modifications incorporated was an outstanding plane (now renamed to Me-210C).

With this sell Messerchmitt AG diminished the losses to 38 mil marks. But it will never get contracts for new designs from RLM. It will remain with the old Bf-109 and Bf-110, just like Heinkel was forced to produce only the outdated He-111. For the delays DB was also punished by forcing all aircraft designers to avoid the use of new DB powerplants (which were considered the best by all German designers). New designs comming from Messerschmitt, Heinkel or DB were kept at a very low output: planes like Me-410 or He-177A-5 (He-177 was also corrected from mid '43) or engines like DB-603 or DB-610. The only exception was the Me-262 which was given top priority only when convinced by Galland, Milch realized that only Me-262 could stop indefinitelly on the Allied bombing campaign. Prior to Galland fervent recommendation Me-262 was also a low priority project, just like Me-309, Me-209 and so on.

Montgomery Python
06-28-2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:

VI got that big cannon tho didnt it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 57mm? XVIII, IIRC. Notable mainly because a German destroyer one shot up became the only ship to surrender to an aircraft. They flew around out of AA range ( I suspect "most" AA range ) and shot holes through it's engines. Coastal Command decided rockets were a better idea, though... be fun to have, I don't think it was any different to the equivalent FB model aside from the cannon pack, but not historically that significant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gotta get those flame dampers off, until we get lit up airfields night missions are a monstrous pain :P

Magister__Ludi
06-28-2004, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_Nakajima:

Was the Me 410 acctually used as a dive bomber through? By the time it was in service I would have thought that the quantity of Allied AA fire was such that it would have been suicidal. The Ju 87 abandoned the dive bombing role for that very reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stuka never abandoned dive bombing, they did it until the end of war. Just that Stuka could not be operated in unfriendly skies (surely it could not be used against England late in the war because of the total air superiority that Allies enjoyed there). Also dive bombers are much harder to hit by AA than level bombers, because AA hits at a single height. When dive bombers start the bomb run AA defending the objective cannot hit them with more than small caliber AA.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Bombing accuracy can also depend very much on the technology carried. For example, Mosquitoes with Oboe were very accurate indeed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oboe's only success was the attack of V-1 sites, then it was successfully jammed, therefore relagated to secondary duties like dropping "food bombs". Anyway, Oboe was poorer than optical level bombing which is nowhere as accurate as dive bombing.
Some Mosquitos were fitted with H2S which gave better range for guidance (more than 300 miles of the Oboe system) but it was much less precise. However, H2S proved more difficult to jam.

If we are at radar bombing, then Y-Verfahren deserves a mention. Though the system had short range (120 miles) it was much more accurate than British designs. It could home in on a certain large buiding if prior electronic mapping was done. Y-Verfahren was used extensivelly late in the war.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Edit: PS not trying to start an ***grim-style 'my aeroplane is better than your aeroplane because my country/ideology is better than yours' argument, but I have never heard that the 410 was used as a dive bomber, or was even capable of it - were crews trained to dive bomb in it, was it assigned to StG units rather than KGs, did it have dive brakes, etc? Any information gratefully received.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I remember yes. At least some planes were fitted with dive brakes and had a dive bombsight installed. One mention here: as long the plane was cleared for dive bombing it could dive bomb without dive brakes. Dive brakes only diminish the dive acceleration, making the aiming a bit easier. But the use of dive brakes imposes a lower dive speed limit, so the lenght of the dive is basically the same.

I'm sure Me-410 did not served in StGs, just like Ju-88A-4 did not serve in StGs, though they performed dive bombing.

mhuxt
06-29-2004, 06:07 AM
"Oboe's only success was the attack of V-1 sites, then it was successfully jammed, therefore relagated to secondary duties like dropping "food bombs". Anyway, Oboe was poorer than optical level bombing which is nowhere as accurate as dive bombing."

Where are you getting this from? Seriously, what's your source? I've never heard this before and would like to know more.

From the RAF Bomber Command History Site:

22/23 January 1943: 2 Mosquitos attacked Cologne without loss. This was the first Oboe attack on Cologne and the damage reported (55 houses damaged, 5 people killed and 22 injured) show that a few aircraft using modern aids could sometimes cause as much damage as the forces of up to 100 bombers which had often been sent to Cologne in marginal weather conditions in 1941 and 1942.

27/28 January 1943: "Ground marking' used for the first time in a raid on Düsseldorf by 162 aircraft - 124 Lancasters, 33 Halifaxes, 5 Mosquitos. 3 Halifaxes and 3 Lancasters lost, 3.7 per cent of the force.

This was the first occasion when Oboe Mosquitos carried out 'ground marking' - now the standard form of target marking - for the Pathfinders. Other Pathfinder Lancasters 'backed-up' the Oboe-aimed markers. There was a thin sheet of cloud over the target and, without Oboe and the new target indicators, this raid could have almost certainly been another failed attack on the Ruhr. Bombing was well concentrated on the southern part of the city. The local report lists damage at a wide variety of property 66 people were killed and 225 injured.

4 aircraft to Texel and the Frisians minelaying; 1 Stirling lost."


15/16 February 1943: 6 Oboe Mosquitos bombed Essen, Rheinhausen and the German night-fighter airfield at St Trond; a map from Essen shows that bombs were dropped on the southern part of the Krupps factory. 4 Stirlings laid mines in the River Gironde and 2 OTU Wellingtons dropped leaflets over France. No aircraft lost.


5/6 March 1943: "Essen was the target for 442 aircraft - 157 Lancasters, 131 Wellingtons, 94 Halifaxes, 52 Stirlings, 8 Mosquitos - in the first raid of the 'Battle of the Ruhr'. It was on this night that Bomber Command's 100,000th sortie of the war was flown. 14 aircraft - 4 Lancasters, 4 Wellingtons, 3 Halifaxes, 3 Stirlings - lost, 3.2 per cent of the force.

The only tactical setback to this raid was that 56 aircraft turned back early because of technical defects and other causes. 3 of the 'early returns' were from the 8 Oboe Mosquito marker aircraft upon which the success of the raid depended but the 5 Mosquitos which did reach the target area opened the attack on time and marked the centre of Essen perfectly. The Pathfinder backers-up also arrived in good time and carried out their part of the plan. The whole of the marking was 'blind', so that the ground haze which normally concealed Essen did not affect the outcome of the raid. The Main Force bombed in 3 waves - Halifaxes in the first wave, Wellingtons and Stirlings in the second, Lancasters in the third. Two thirds of the bomb tonnage was incendiary; one third of the high-explosive bombs were fused for long delay. The attack lasted for 40 minutes and 362 aircraft claimed to have bombed the main target. These tactics would be typical of many other raids on the Ruhr area in the next 4 months. Reconnaissance photographs showed 160 acres of destruction with 53 separate buildings within the Krupps works hit by bombs. Small numbers of bombs fell in 6 other Ruhr cities.

7 aircraft of No 4 Group were sent minelaying in the Frisian Islands without loss."


So, the info. I have says that Oboe was used to deliver bombs from individual aircraft accurately (indeed, in one of the earlier tests, Bomber Command asked for the Krupps works to be hit, the technicians said that wasn't specific enough, so the request was changed to the machine shop, which was duly hit). The info also says Oboe was used to mark for large raids, including those on specific industrial sites, with a precision not previously possible, at least a year before the raids on V-1 sites.

Cheers,

Mark

Hoarmurath
06-29-2004, 06:48 AM
Am i the only one who think it is really incredible to have some people start complaining before even knowing if the plane will ever be included in the sim?

You are training for the day it become available?

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

No601_prangster
06-29-2004, 07:00 AM
Yes I have to admit it's a little silly but I think it has been quite fun and informative. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.ijeremiah.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg
http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/

mhuxt
06-29-2004, 07:07 AM
Imperial Chinese Government Service Test time Prangster


*tell*us*all*you*know


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,

Mark

No601_prangster
06-29-2004, 07:20 AM
I've talked to Oleg and am still non the wiser! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." British Prime Minister Winston Churchill speaking about Russia in 1939.

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mhuxt
06-29-2004, 07:27 AM
Heheheh

OK, you pass.

Cheers,

Mark

p1ngu666
06-29-2004, 07:56 AM
i think itll be included, cos oleg wouldnt be able to leave britain if it wasnt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

i didnt know the mossie speed curve was so flat, most planes get much quicker, eg the german ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. never came across stuff that said at so and so height etc.

and hoarmurath, theres plenty of things in fb for u already.
all those bridges http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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tttiger
06-29-2004, 10:38 PM
Dammit mhuxt, if you're gonna fly this sim, don't just post! Get in here and fly! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Great to see ya, Hux!

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

tttiger
06-29-2004, 10:47 PM
As to the Mossie, I don't know what all this blather about night fighters is about. Without radar, no one has night fighters and we don't have radar.

The FBVI was a fast NOE hit and run ground attack aircraft. It also (still staying below radar) was used to vulch (they called it flying "intruder" missions) German planes as they returned to their bases. Nasty.

Obviosuly, it would be pointless to fly the FBVI in that manner with icons on.

Further, since a distant low-flying aircraft appears as a small white dot, it may well be too easy to spot even with the icons off.

While I look forward to it very eagerly, I'm not sure how effective it will be in FB. It certainly will not be a DF plane but great for Coops and Virtual Wars if it can fly undetected. Stealth is essential.

We'll see...

BTW, Hux and I were squaddies in a WarBirds Mossie squad and he is a walking encyclopedia on the Wooden Wonder. He also served as the consultant for the Mossie we (hopefully) will get. If he says something about a Mossie, you can take it to the bank http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

mhuxt
06-30-2004, 12:05 AM
ttiger!

Hiya! &lt;S&gt;

Not flown any sim regularly for some time now - baby stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How's things out your way - still on the Tropical Island Paradise?

You know me too well - if there is a Mosquito discussion going somewhere, I can't resist...

All the best ttiger,

Mark