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EmbodyingSeven5
08-20-2014, 11:14 PM
I really miss the combat from AC and ezios trilogy. I thought it encouraged you use more of the tools and moves you had, instead of memorizing the specific buttons to kill an enemy. who agrees with me?

D.I.D.
08-20-2014, 11:55 PM
No, not at all. I'm really interested to try Unity's new system, especially if it's hard to perform.

Something that really killed my enjoyment of Revelations was the sheer range of tools, many of which did pretty much the same thing as each other. They weren't even a variety of tools so much as a menu of ways to watch Ezio win. The bombs even had predicted bouncing, so you knew exactly where they'd go. Even the most simplistic FPS is going to make you use judgement with your aim of grenades to adjust for distance.

I like games that give me tasks to master, so that I'm a bit hamfisted at first but I gradually learn and earn the ability to best the computer in most encounters. AC1 had that to some extent, but I don't remember ever feeling like the combat had become fun. I enjoyed Black Flag a lot, but nonetheless I'm happy to see anything and everything changed if it might bring forth a better system.

SixKeys
08-21-2014, 12:11 AM
ALL AC games up until Unity have been based on a simplistic counter system. You can button-mash your way to victory without breaking a sweat. In ACB it was literally impossible to die in combat as the final health square would always regenerate before an enemy could deal a fatal blow. Having so many tools also meant you could "cheat" your way out of every battle even if you were losing: just drop a smoke bomb and insta-kill every enemy within its radius.

I can't judge Unity's combat before the game is out, but the idea of a rock-paper-scissors approach at least sounds marginally more challenging than just standing there mashing a single counter button.

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2014, 12:15 AM
AC2 had the absolute worst combat in the series. Not difficult, just everyone is so damned slow and there is no strategy to it. Sometimes enemies block you and sometimes they don't.

LoyalACFan
08-21-2014, 02:14 AM
I really miss the combat from AC and ezios trilogy. I thought it encouraged you use more of the tools and moves you had, instead of memorizing the specific buttons to kill an enemy. who agrees with me?

Um... what? Pre-AC3 combat had two moves that won any fight in the game; counter and killstreak. It didn't make you use any strategy or variation at all.

rprkjj
08-21-2014, 02:24 AM
I was replaying AC1 somewhat lately, and timing your strikes to get insta-kills is actually pretty fun. It's satisfying to mop up a group of thugs, not letting them even go for a kill besides the last one, then finishing him off with a hidden blade counter. It's more or less the same in AC2, besides more options and a more forgiving hidden blade counter window. AC3/AC4 combat is stylish until it turns into a giant mess of clipping.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 02:27 AM
I really miss the combat from AC and ezios trilogy. I thought it encouraged you use more of the tools and moves you had, instead of memorizing the specific buttons to kill an enemy. who agrees with me?

Not with the introduction of killchain, aka "insta-win" that was introduced in ACB.

Shahkulu101
08-21-2014, 02:32 AM
Nope.

It might have got repetitive but memorising button sequences to defeat all the different archetypes in AC3 was fun. It flowed better and was more fun than AC2-ACR's system.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 02:33 AM
Nope.

It might have got repetitive but memorising button sequences to defeat all the different archetypes in AC3 was fun. It flowed better and was more fun than AC2-ACR's system.

Actually I though AC:B combat was fun. Even though it was the easiest combat system ever with the killchain, I absolutely loved the way it looked and flowed together. The transitions between the killchain were much smoother than AC3 too, AC3 had a weird quarter second stop between kills

Shahkulu101
08-21-2014, 02:37 AM
Actually I though AC:B combat was fun. Even though it was the easiest combat system ever with the killchain, I absolutely loved the way it looked and flowed together. The transitions between the killchain were much smoother than AC3 too, AC3 had a weird quarter second stop between kills

Yeah, I liked ACB's and ACR's for the fun factor and flow as well, but AC3 is easier for me to chain kills due to the counter window and it feels awesome once you memorise the button sequences for each archetype and can just cut through them like butter. Not to mention the animations - oh and ASSASSIN TOMAHAWK.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 02:42 AM
Yeah, I liked ACB's and ACR's for the fun factor and flow as well, but AC3 is easier for me to chain kills due to the counter window and it feels awesome once you memorise the button sequences for each archetype and can just cut through them like butter. Not to mention the animations - oh and ASSASSIN TOMAHAWK.

Talking about animations, I hate how after the Ezio trilogy, the weapon animations seem to have halved. There aren't that many tomahawk/sword/club animations in AC3, not to mention the knife animations are tomahawk animations. And it got worse in AC4 with Edwards dual swords. There were about 6 "finishing" kill animations and the building up was pretty much all the time dual slash left, dual slash right.

I hope with Unity they have more combat animations to make it seem less repetitive.

Shahkulu101
08-21-2014, 02:46 AM
Talking about animations, I hate how after the Ezio trilogy, the weapon animations seem to have halved. There aren't that many tomahawk/sword/club animations in AC3, not to mention the knife animations are tomahawk animations. And it got worse in AC4 with Edwards dual swords. There were about 6 "finishing" kill animations and the building up was pretty much all the time dual slash left, dual slash right.

I hope with Unity they have more combat animations to make it seem less repetitive.

I'm sure there will be a ton of new animations considering this is a essentially a reboot in terms of gameplay.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 03:06 AM
I'm sure there will be a ton of new animations considering this is a essentially a reboot in terms of gameplay.

So was AC3, that was completely overhauled too minus the new parkour in Unity

D.I.D.
08-21-2014, 03:46 AM
In ACB it was literally impossible to die in combat as the final health square would always regenerate before an enemy could deal a fatal blow.

This isn't entirely true. I tested this recently by putting the controller down to see what would happen, after seeing so many people say it. Ezio will die. I didn't test every combat situation because I only tried it with groups (not that it makes much difference, given the "no, after you!" offensive strategy of the NPCs), but if you walk into a contested Borgia Tower and stop moving, they are going to kill you.

SixKeys
08-21-2014, 03:55 AM
This isn't entirely true. I tested this recently by putting the controller down to see what would happen, after seeing so many people say it. Ezio will die. I didn't test every combat situation because I only tried it with groups (not that it makes much difference, given the "no, after you!" offensive strategy of the NPCs), but if you walk into a contested Borgia Tower and stop moving, they are going to kill you.

There used to be a video showing Ezio fighting a bunch of Romulus followers where the fight literally went on for minutes and the last health square kept regenerating. The player did nothing and Ezio would sometimes automatically block anyway, and when he didn't, the Romulus guys stopped hitting him for a few secs to allow his health to regenerate. The video seems to be gone now as I can't find it. Maybe some enemy types are more aggressive than others, or maybe there are differences between the console and PC versions (although I doubt it).

Edit: Found it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Racru_cmFnk

D.I.D.
08-21-2014, 03:59 AM
I was playing on PC. I'm sure nobody's better at not touching the controls than I am ;)

I wasn't testing against Romulus followers, only the Borgia guard. Get a group of angry guards around you, stop doing anything at all, and you'll see Ezio die.

Obviously, I'm not going to contest the fact that it was ridiculously hard to die as long as you put any effort at all into trying to live!

Ureh
08-21-2014, 04:12 AM
I did kinda like AC1's combat progression system. After each target, Altair earned more knives, health, better equipment, abilities, etc. It did feel like Altair was becoming stronger and more awesome. And I thought the "idle" guard state during combat was pretty interesting. When guards are daydreaming or scared of Altair, they become vulnerable to the hidden blade (the Jagers in AC3 were also similarly susceptible to streaks when they flinched from Connor). And the "disarm" ability to break a guard's defense also required you to do a quick-step first. So that was pretty cute too. :)

AC2 has about only one thing I sorta miss and that is the ability to break a spear when the guard tries to sweep Ezio off his feet. It didn't happen often enough!

Jexx21
08-21-2014, 04:15 AM
I actually think that in Brotherhood, it's easier to die in combat if you're actually playing and taking part in combat than if you're just standing there doing nothing.

Fatal-Feit
08-21-2014, 05:09 AM
Nope. The old combat was easy and broken as hell. In AC:2, you only needed 2 buttons. In Brotherhood, you can win with literally one button and the analog against 200+ guards. In AC:2-Revelations, you were chocked-full of ammo and supply. Literally, you can take over a thousand hits because of all the medicines. And let alone the ample supplies, the tools were way too OP. Just compare the hidden gun to the handguns in recent titles. You didn't need to reload, and Ezio had about 40 ammo to double tool-kill on, whereas the Kenway had to settle with 1-4 bullets a match, inwhich you had to reload to continue double tool-kills as well.

Sesheenku
08-21-2014, 09:14 AM
I liked AC1 and ACR combat. ACR had kill streaks but spear men required that you either kill them with a kill streak, stun them first, break their defense, or dodge and combo.

Then AC3 dumbed it down even more, as if combat wasn't already overly simplistic now they gave you like 2 full seconds to choose the right button, then forced you to disarm enemies and stab them repeatedly till death.

It was very dull and even easier than before, they tried to add false difficulty by reducing variety in options.

Like I said Spearmen were immune to a direct counter in ACR but you could kill them several other ways, AC3 practically forces you to stab them repeatedly. Lol what a funny video gamer you are, what you think Assassins know how to stab their enemies in lethal areas? HAHAHAHAHH oh you crack me up!

ACB was at least quick and painless, you got in and you got it over with in less than second.

3 and 4 though... are an atrocious and brutal raping of the combat, thrown onto the corner after the fact, bloody, bruised, and tragically broken.

Fatal-Feit
08-21-2014, 09:35 AM
Like I said Spearmen were immune to a direct counter in ACR but you could kill them several other ways, AC3 practically forces you to stab them repeatedly. Lol what a funny video gamer you are, what you think Assassins know how to stab their enemies in lethal areas? HAHAHAHAHH oh you crack me up!

No, AC:3 offered you just as much variety to kill each enemy. You had tool-counter, double tool kills, human shield, guard break, etc.

AC:R gave players loot-counter and hook-counter but those were mostly gimmicks for the sake of innovation.

Sesheenku
08-21-2014, 05:03 PM
No, AC:3 offered you just as much variety to kill each enemy. You had tool-counter, double tool kills, human shield, guard break, etc.

AC:R gave players loot-counter and hook-counter but those were mostly gimmicks for the sake of innovation.

Please Alpaca. That's not variety, that's ERMAGERD LOOK AT ALL DA PURDY NEW KILL MOVES!!!! ERRRRRMAAAAGGGGEEEERD I JUST SHOT HIM WITH MY PISTOL IN MY COUNTER KILL!

Human shield is just a defensive maneuver...

Guard break isn't new.

That's not game play variety, all they do is change the cinematic kill.

In the end it all boils down to counter killing or stabbing repeatedly those are your choices to end the fight, either that or knock the enemy down with rope darts or defense break and stabbing them in the back or shooting them in the face.

In most cases you don't have a choice with stronger enemies you MUST take their defense down somehow or shoot them in the face with a pistol. Either that or stab them repeatedly wondering why Connor is too derpy to stab them in the throat to instantly kill them even though they have no weapon.

CalvyB
08-21-2014, 05:05 PM
Mixed views. I much prefer the weapon wheel styling in 3 / revelations to what was in ac4 for example. the ability to set dpad to specific weapons made combat much smoother.

in 4 for example it annoys me if I'm fighting a groups of guys and I can't drop picked up weapons or switch weapons easily. I find it especially irritating on the defensive side of things. switching from pistols to smoke bombs or something in mid combat just feels awkward. and even more awkward to drop disarmed weapons or picked up weapons in mid fight.

in earlier titles for example I could disarm an enemy and tap up on the dpad and instantly drop the weapon I took of him without any hassle. or switching from sword to dagger just as seamlessly. and it felt much quicker to select what you needed when you needed it. so in that regard I think the earlier titles were better.

another thing I didn't like about 3/4 were the actions weren't consistant rather than having specific buttons for specific stuff I felt in 3/4 o and x never did what I wanted them to. one second x is disarm. the next its break defense the next its grab them as a human shield. and I often felt I didn't quite have control.

so control wise I think yeah i do prefer brother hood / revelations. but in terms of visual effect i think the later games are cool. there's a much greater variety of attacks which makes combat look better. i just feel that the player doesn't quite have enough control over which attacks take place... as such can sometimes feel a little disconnected from the action.

Am happy to see a proper stealth / cover system in untiy though. really pleased about that.

Megas_Doux
08-21-2014, 05:10 PM
AC III remains my favorite combat up to this date! But I just want a different, harder one for the franchise right now.

Fatal-Feit
08-21-2014, 05:26 PM
Please Alpaca. That's not variety, that's ERMAGERD LOOK AT ALL DA PURDY NEW KILL MOVES!!!! ERRRRRMAAAAGGGGEEEERD I JUST SHOT HIM WITH MY PISTOL IN MY COUNTER KILL!

No, that's what Revelations was. There's no difference between regular counter, tool-counter, or hook-counter. They are just little cheap gimmicks of each other, or how you said, ''all they do is change the cinematic kill'' , but literally as well. AC:3 on the other hand offered a variety for each situation. No, double-tool-kills isn't the same as human shields, and neither are the same as tool-counters. And neither are the same as double counter kills.


In the end it all boils down to counter killing or stabbing repeatedly those are your choices to end the fight, either that or knock the enemy down with rope darts or defense break and stabbing them in the back or shooting them in the face.

In most cases you don't have a choice with stronger enemies you MUST take their defense down somehow or shoot them in the face with a pistol. Either that or stab them repeatedly wondering why Connor is too derpy to stab them in the throat to instantly kill them even though they have no weapon.

You can double-tool-kill strong enemies, chain-kill strong enemies, tool-counter a strong enemy, disarm double-tool-kill strong enemies, or double counter kill strong enemies. I'm sorry but these are actually a whole lot more varied than before. And each requires a different flow and timing in comparison to the previous wait and counter methods.

Maybe you just need more practice with the system.

Ureh
08-21-2014, 09:38 PM
Mixed views. I much prefer the weapon wheel styling in 3 / revelations to what was in ac4 for example. the ability to set dpad to specific weapons made combat much smoother.


I agree too. hotkeys with the d-pad were better. I also like how the AC2/B/R weapon wheels pops up instantly as soon as you want it.

GunnerGalactico
08-21-2014, 09:56 PM
I like the combat system in ACR the best, it felt smoother than ACB's and I found the hookblade use at times. I also enjoyed AC3's, even though it was dumbed down. It has the best counter-kill animations, even if it was repetitive at times. I really enjoyed using the tomahawk, as opposed to using a sword :cool:

SpiritOfNevaeh
08-21-2014, 10:13 PM
I LOVE the combat in AC3, especially dem animations <3

But as long as we don't get anything like the AC1 combat, I'm good. :o

Sushiglutton
08-21-2014, 10:13 PM
Lol no. Combat is AC's weakest pillar for sure. The combat system in Sands Of Time (and improved further in Warrior Within) was really good for its time. Since then I feel Ubi has stagnated and what they have produced for the first six ACs has been extremely disapointing. Shallow, clunky, basic misstakes, inefficient controls and just not exciting in any way except some cool animations. Hard to to understand how such a great company, with all the experience, could have failed so spectacularly in this area.

Anyhow I hope they can finally make something cool for Unity, because I love good melee combat in games!

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 10:19 PM
Lol no. Combat is AC's weakest pillar for sure. The combat system in Sands Of Time (and improved further in Warrior Within) was really good for its time. Since then I feel Ubi has stagnated and what they have produced for the first six ACs has been extremely disapointing. Shallow, clunky, basic misstakes, inefficient controls and just not exciting in any way except some cool animations. Hard to to understand how such a great company, with all the experience, could have failed so spectacularly in this area.

Anyhow I hope they can finally make something cool for Unity, because I love good melee combat in games!

PoP SoT Trilogy is my favourite combat still to this day. Don't know know how they screwed up Forgotten Sands.

Sushiglutton
08-21-2014, 10:23 PM
PoP SoT Trilogy is my favourite combat still to this day. Don't know know how they screwed up Forgotten Sands.

I actually replayed SoT last fall (I think) and I was suprised how fun it still is. Sure, you don't have that many moves to choose from, but it's still kind of cool.

Forgotten sands is just another example of a game that fails because it has no faith in the player at all (same as AC3 etc). Combat just becomes a chore when there's no threat and no way to really play it well. It's a shame, because it seems like FS kind of killed the franchise for the foreseeable future.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 10:27 PM
I actually replayed SoT last fall (I think) and I was suprised how fun it still is. Sure, you don't have that many moves to choose from, but it's still kind of cool.

Forgotten sands is just another example of a game that fails because it has no faith in the player at all (same as AC3 etc). Combat just becomes a chore when there's no threat and no way to really play it well. It's a shame, because it seems like FS kind of killed the franchise for the foreseeable future.

Agree, I don't even know why it was a thing. The gap between SoT and WW didn't need to be filled, and they already had the reboot. The only highlight of FS was they bought the old voice actor back for it

Sushiglutton
08-21-2014, 10:31 PM
Agree, I don't even know why it was a thing. The gap between SoT and WW didn't need to be filled, and they already had the reboot. The only highlight of FS was they bought the old voice actor back for it

I guess 2008 performed poorly and so they kind of panicked and decided to go "back to the roots"? I dunno, don't really get it either.

I agree getting the old VA back was cool! I also like some of the platforming towards the end when you used the waterfreezing ability in some pretty crazy ways. Felt good when you got into the flow.

pacmanate
08-21-2014, 10:35 PM
I guess 2008 performed poorly and so they kind of panicked and decided to go "back to the roots"? I dunno, don't really get it either.

I agree getting the old VA back was cool! I also like some of the platforming towards the end when you used the waterfreezing ability in some pretty crazy ways. Felt good when you got into the flow.

Oh yeah, defo the highlight of the game that ending segment! I loved stringing every power together

Sushiglutton
08-21-2014, 10:43 PM
Oh yeah, defo the highlight of the game that ending segment! I loved stringing every power together

That should have been the first 30min of the game and then they should have built from there ;)!

Sesheenku
08-22-2014, 03:55 AM
No, that's what Revelations was. There's no difference between regular counter, tool-counter, or hook-counter. They are just little cheap gimmicks of each other, or how you said, ''all they do is change the cinematic kill'' , but literally as well. AC:3 on the other hand offered a variety for each situation. No, double-tool-kills isn't the same as human shields, and neither are the same as tool-counters. And neither are the same as double counter kills.

Who cares about different counters? I was never talking about different counters. I was talking about Spearmen not being so immune to everything.

Bro what's up with your comprehension today? I never said human shield was the same as anything else.... I said it's nothing but a defensive move... It's not variety, it's basically what dodge was except it's for musket fire. It's good to have but it doesn't mix things up, you basically have to use it if you don't wanna take half a bar of damage from shots.


You can double-tool-kill strong enemies, chain-kill strong enemies, tool-counter a strong enemy, disarm double-tool-kill strong enemies, or double counter kill strong enemies. I'm sorry but these are actually a whole lot more varied than before. And each requires a different flow and timing in comparison to the previous wait and counter methods.

Maybe you just need more practice with the system.

Counter and disarm is all it boils down to. You could always chain kill strong enemies and you need to start a chain to do that and how do you start a chain? You counter. I'll give you the double tool kill for strong enemies, I'd forgotten about it but in any case tools have always been an easy way to kill things.

If anything you've proved that it only has as much variety as Revelations. It just dresses them up in different ways to make them seem different.

Like I said in Revelations you didn't need to break defense either and on top of that your hidden blades weren't useless, a dodge after an attack and a quick 2 or 2 hit combo while an enemies defense is down kills them off. Tools are useful there too, a Datura bomb makes short work of an entire group, lambs blood gets them out of my way entirely, hidden gun is the equivalent of the pistol.

So where's the extra variety? Because now you can kill with double tools? Same as if they remade Revelations and said now instead of one bombs, you can throw two!

Did I mention that they made hidden blades into butter knives? Connor combos a lot slower than Ezio and despite his attacks being clearly more brutal they no longer had combat usage. Which is ridiculous, if the enemy is disarmed you should easily be able to stab them in the throat and be done with them.

Most of that stuff you said is just you can disarm with this or you can counter with that now. So what? That's basically the equivalent of buying a new weapon in old AC games, I can counter with an axe but it's still a counter. It's not more variety.

Sorry man, if anything you've at least proved that it doesn't have less variety but it doesn't have more either.

I don't need more practice with AC3 though, I've mastered combat systems with actual depth, AC3 is like the rest of the games, close your eyes and win.

SixKeys
08-22-2014, 04:00 AM
Bro what's up with your comprehension today? I never said human shield was the same as anything else.... I said it's nothing but a defensive move... It's not variety, it's basically what dodge was except it's for musket fire. It's good to have but it doesn't mix things up, you basically have to use it if you don't wanna take half a bar of damage from shots.

Not to mention half the time it didn't work. At least they fixed it in AC4.

Sesheenku
08-22-2014, 04:05 AM
Not to mention half the time it didn't work. At least they fixed it in AC4.

Indeed, I did have that problem quite a bit.

Fatal-Feit
08-22-2014, 10:25 AM
Who cares about different counters? I was never talking about different counters. I was talking about Spearmen not being so immune to everything.

That wasn't lost in AC:3. AC:3 had the same amount of variety with their own immunities each as well.


Bro what's up with your comprehension today? I never said human shield was the same as anything else.... I said it's nothing but a defensive move... It's not variety, it's basically what dodge was except it's for musket fire. It's good to have but it doesn't mix things up, you basically have to use it if you don't wanna take half a bar of damage from shots.

Still, that's my point. It's effective against Jagers since the AI has foot soldiers snipe you when Jagers are on the field.


Counter and disarm is all it boils down to. You could always chain kill strong enemies and you need to start a chain to do that and how do you start a chain? You counter. I'll give you the double tool kill for strong enemies, I'd forgotten about it but in any case tools have always been an easy way to kill things.

You can't do a follow up chain kill on brutes or Jagers. And yes, it does mostly revolve around counter and disarm, but that's the system we've always worked with. AC:3 evolved it.


If anything you've proved that it only has as much variety as Revelations. It just dresses them up in different ways to make them seem different.

No, as I've said. They are more situational, and better for an aggressive flow instead of waiting to counter. They require different timing, different button prompts, and aren't all counters.


Like I said in Revelations you didn't need to break defense either and on top of that your hidden blades weren't useless, a dodge after an attack and a quick 2 or 2 hit combo while an enemies defense is down kills them off. Tools are useful there too, a Datura bomb makes short work of an entire group, lambs blood gets them out of my way entirely, hidden gun is the equivalent of the pistol.

The Hidden Gun is much more OP than the pistol. You don't need to reload, you have more ammo, and they aim faster. --Let alone the infinite double-tool-kill-chain combo. Pistols can only load up to 1,2, or 4 at all times during a battle. And double-tool-kills with pistols requires more timing, and can't chain against brutes or Jagers.

If anything, I'd compare pistols to the rope dart, but you only had up to 5 rope darts in AC:3. Tool balancing is where AC:3 succeeds.

Tools have always been OP in the Ezio Trilogy. And the bombs are no exception.

The hidden blades are subjective. Hidden blades were broken since AC:2. They made every other blunt weapon irrelevant. Especially when you're just countering since the magical hidden blade pierces through everything. They weren't as useful in AC:3, but ideally they are part of the balancing.


So where's the extra variety? Because now you can kill with double tools? Same as if they remade Revelations and said now instead of one bombs, you can throw two!

You didn't debunk the variety, you only debated it. The Revelations analogy doesn't make sense.


Did I mention that they made hidden blades into butter knives? Connor combos a lot slower than Ezio and despite his attacks being clearly more brutal they no longer had combat usage. Which is ridiculous, if the enemy is disarmed you should easily be able to stab them in the throat and be done with them.

You can kill after a disarm, but it takes timing and practice. As I've said, you can also double-tool-kill right after, as well.

Everyone's attacks were slower in the AnvilNext. They revamped the combat, and changed the pacing.


Most of that stuff you said is just you can disarm with this or you can counter with that now. So what? That's basically the equivalent of buying a new weapon in old AC games, I can counter with an axe but it's still a counter. It's not more variety.

You're not comprehending it correctly. That analogy makes no sense. Everything I mentioned can be done with any weapon at your disposal. It's a matter of situation and timing.

Sesheenku
08-22-2014, 10:41 AM
That wasn't lost in AC:3. AC:3 had the same amount of variety with their own immunities each as well.

Although less immunities than AC3. I can at least get rid of them quickly in a chain if I start one.


Still, that's my point. It's effective against Jagers since the AI has foot soldiers snipe you when Jagers are on the field.

It's not variety... it's just a block for guns. A feature that should have been in the game since they started including guns.




You can't do a follow up chain kill on brutes or Jagers. And yes, it does mostly revolve around counter and disarm, but that's the system we've always worked with. AC:3 evolved it.

Hence my problem, the series was long overdue for FAR more than a simple evolution.


No, as I've said. They are more situational, and better for an aggressive flow instead of waiting to counter. They require different timing, different button prompts, and aren't all counters.

Throwing a Datura bomb in a guards face isn't a counter. Different timing? Please the games are so piss easy there's hasn't been actual timing since AC2. There's no difficulty in pulling off anything in AC3 as long as you know how.


The Hidden Gun is much more OP than the pistol. You don't need to reload, you have more ammo, and they aim faster. --Let alone the infinite double-tool-kill-chain combo. Pistols can only load up to 1,2, or 4 at all times during a battle. And double-tool-kills with pistols requires more timing, and can't chain against brutes or Jagers.

If anything, I'd compare pistols to the rope dart, but you only had up to 5 rope darts in AC:3. Tool balancing is where AC:3 succeeds.

I wonder what balance has to do with variety. Now you're just making a case for my original argument and show casing that 3 has more restrictions.


Tools have always been OP in the Ezio Trilogy. And the bombs are no exception.

Every game can be played with your eyes closed while you're drunk, high, and haven't slept in a week anyways the assassins themselves are OP. I still don't know what this has to do with variety.


The hidden blades are subjective. Hidden blades were broken since AC:2. They made every other blunt weapon irrelevant. Especially when you're just countering since the magical hidden blade pierces through everything. They weren't as useful in AC:3, but ideally they are part of the balancing.

At least in AC2 the timing wasn't quite as mindlessly simple as the games that came after it. It's actually possible to mess up when fighting a brute, spearmen, runner, and standard guard with the hidden blade.



You didn't debunk the variety, you only debated it. The Revelations analogy doesn't make sense.

And this doesn't debunk my argument, You can't just say nope to an argument. You have to explain why it doesn't make sense. C'mon Alpaca, if you're gonna debate with me keep up with the standards.




You can kill after a disarm, but it takes timing and practice. As I've said, you can also double-tool-kill right after, as well.

I'm aware of it but it's not variety but restriction, you are restricted to timing it when before you weren't.


Everyone's attacks were slower in the AnvilNext. They revamped the combat, and changed the pacing.

And I hated all of it ;P


You're not comprehending it correctly. That analogy makes no sense. Everything I mentioned can be done with any weapon at your disposal. It's a matter of situation and timing.


Once again this debunks nothing, you must elaborate on why something doesn't make sense, else I can just do the same and say that doesn't make sense and leave it at that.

You're acting like just cause you can use all your weapons means they all do different things, if they can counter they counter, if they can insta kill they can insta kill.

Situational crap and more timing doesn't add to variety.

Fatal-Feit
08-22-2014, 11:35 AM
Although less immunities than AC3. I can at least get rid of them quickly in a chain if I start one.

Nah, the Janissaries were more restrictive than the Jagers. You can't quickly take down Janissaries in a chain, counter, or double took kill. You have to chain at least 3 times against them. My examples for taking out Jagers were quicker.


It's not variety... it's just a block for guns. A feature that should have been in the game since they started including guns.

That's clearly variety... Whether or not it's too simple, or a simple means of blocking, it's still part of the variety.


Hence my problem, the series was long overdue for FAR more than a simple evolution.

Sure, but that's subjective. AC:3 was a big overhaul for a lot of people, excluding yourself.


Throwing a Datura bomb in a guards face isn't a counter. Different timing? Please the games are so piss easy there's hasn't been actual timing since AC2. There's no difficulty in pulling off anything in AC3 as long as you know how.

You just were complaining about how you couldn't instantly slid a guards' throat as soon as you disarmed him. And the fact that most of your methods resulted in spamming the X buttons during combat instead of said methods. :p

But yeah, I agree about AC needing a harder combat. AC:IV was a step back as well.

The Datura Bomb was a tool. That's like shooting a guard's face with a bow. Almost all the tools are exploitable. AC:3's trip mines can take down a squad if you countered with it.


I wonder what balance has to do with variety. Now you're just making a case for my original argument and show casing that 3 has more restrictions.

No, I'm show casing that 3 has more balancing. You can still tool-counter, double-tool-kill, or plain shoot during combat. The older titles don't even have tool-counters.


Every game can be played with your eyes closed while you're drunk, high, and haven't slept in a week anyways the assassins themselves are OP. I still don't know what this has to do with variety.

You said the hidden blades were useless in AC:3. I'm regarding that with balancing issues.


At least in AC2 the timing wasn't quite as mindlessly simple as the games that came after it. It's actually possible to mess up when fighting a brute, spearmen, runner, and standard guard with the hidden blade.

That's mostly because of clunky controls and player limitations in comparison to the future installments. Brotherhood and Revelations had the same window, IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong.


And this doesn't debunk my argument, You can't just say nope to an argument. You have to explain why it doesn't make sense. C'mon Alpaca, if you're gonna debate with me keep up with the standards.

I am. And I"m explaining it. All you're doing is repeating the old; ''Well that should have done that loooooong time ago.'' Or argue about how stupid/bland/repetitive/bad and how much you hated said features are instead of the main point. :p


I'm aware of it but it's not variety but restriction, you are restricted to timing it when before you weren't.

The variety I'm concerned with was double-tool-kill after a disarm.


Once again this debunks nothing, you must elaborate on why something doesn't make sense, else I can just do the same and say that doesn't make sense and leave it at that.

You're acting like just cause you can use all your weapons means they all do different things, if they can counter they counter, if they can insta kill they can insta kill.

Situational crap and more timing doesn't add to variety.

''So what? That's basically the equivalent of buying a new weapon in old AC games, I can counter with an axe but it's still a counter. It's not more variety.''I did, here''Everything I mentioned can be done with any weapon at your disposal. It's a matter of situation and timing.'' Meaning, not going shops and using an entirely different weapon. Also, Axes in AC:3 has its own tool attack.

Your definition of variety is different from mine. All those different range of attacks and options are varieties, not reskins. Things like hook-counter and regular counter are reskins, not variety.

Fatal-Feit
08-22-2014, 11:50 AM
Like I said Spearmen were immune to a direct counter in ACR but you could kill them several other ways, AC3 practically forces you to stab them repeatedly. Lol what a funny video gamer you are, what you think Assassins know how to stab their enemies in lethal areas? HAHAHAHAHH oh you crack me up!


No, AC:3 offered you just as much variety to kill each enemy. You had tool-counter, double tool kills, human shield, guard break, etc.

AC:R gave players loot-counter and hook-counter but those were mostly gimmicks for the sake of innovation.

Instead of debating for days like last time let's make a civil list. Gimmicks and whatever are allowed.

AC:R
- Loot-counter
- Hook-counter
- Counter
- Tools (bombs, guns, etc)
- Double Tool Kill
- Chain-kill
- Back-stab
- Combo kill (repeated attacking)
-
-

AC:3
- Double Tool Kill
- Tool Counter
- Counter
- Tools (bombs, guns, etc)
- Guard shield
- Double counter
- Chain-kill
- Back-stab
- Wall or platform kill (kicking enemies off roof or against wall/tables/etc)
- Combo kill (repeated attacking)
-
-


Feel free to add onto it.

Sesheenku
08-22-2014, 12:04 PM
Nah, the Janissaries were more restrictive than the Jagers. You can't quickly take down Janissaries in a chain, counter, or double took kill. You have to chain at least 3 times against them. My examples for taking out Jagers were quicker.

You can still kill them with tools. They can be taken down quickly if you want to do that.


That's clearly variety... Whether or not it's too simple, or a simple means of blocking, it's still part of the variety.

Doesn't fall under variety for me. It's a block. We've always been able to block. Now they just added it for guns it doesn't add variety it's something you HAVE to do or get your *** shot.




Sure, but that's subjective. AC:3 was a big overhaul for a lot of people, excluding yourself.

Indeed it is but that's an opinion of mine that won't change. I was pretty exasperated with the game play and then 3 made it worse for me instead of better.


You just were complaining about how you couldn't instantly slid a guards' throat as soon as you disarmed him. And the fact that most of your methods resulted in spamming the X buttons during combat instead of said methods. :p

But yeah, I agree about AC needing a harder combat. AC:IV was a step back as well.

I'm not talking about what I do in game, merely pointing out how it's easy whatever way you do it and ends up as tedious as ever imo.


The Datura Bomb was a tool. That's like shooting a guard's face with a bow. Almost all the tools are exploitable. AC:3's trip mines can take down a squad if you countered with it.

What about it? I was talking about how the timing isn't difficult and can be done easily.





No, I'm show casing that 3 has more balancing. You can still tool-counter, double-tool-kill, or plain shoot during combat. The older titles don't even have tool-counters.

A tool counter is the same as any other counter, just with a different animation. That's false variety cause it doesn't have an impact on game play, just the animations.



You said the hidden blades were useless in AC:3. I'm regarding that with balancing issues.

It's poor balance in a combat system that's still mindlessly easy. There's no sense in trying to make it more difficult if you don't actually make it difficult. I would have preferred they copy AC1 and not allow it to attack in combat if they wanted to make it unfeasible in combat.



That's mostly because of clunky controls and player limitations in comparison to the future installments. Brotherhood and Revelations had the same window, IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No AC2's window is smaller and more particular, in ACB you can press really early or really late. ACB and ACR windows are more similar not exactly but not different enough for me to go on about.




I am. And I"m explaining it. All you're doing is repeating the old; ''Well that should have done that loooooong time ago.'' Or argue about how stupid/bland/repetitive/bad and how much you hated said features are instead of the main point. :p

I've already explained WHY I feel they're repetitive/bad/bland. Indeed this is a series so you're damn right at some point I expect far more than more of the same or a meager attempt to move up that somehow fails and retains many of the same issues.



The variety I'm concerned with was double-tool-kill after a disarm.

It's hardly variety, it's nice to have don't get me wrong but it all leads to killing something after you disarm it. It's just a different animation.


''So what? That's basically the equivalent of buying a new weapon in old AC games, I can counter with an axe but it's still a counter. It's not more variety.''I did, here''Everything I mentioned can be done with any weapon at your disposal. It's a matter of situation and timing.'' Meaning, not going shops and using an entirely different weapon. Also, Axes in AC:3 has its own tool attack.


Your definition of variety is different from mine. All those different range of attacks and options are varieties, not reskins. Things like hook-counter and regular counter are reskins, not variety.

You'll notice I never mentioned the hook blade, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up, I'm not such a fool that I would come on here and try to claim that the hook blade offers variety in combat, it doesn't do **** in combat. So stop mentioning it already as if I'm arguing it as the king of variety, I haven't even mentioned it till now.

Those "different" range attacks all function too similarly to old stuff for me to not feel them as reskins especially when the combat is basically an easier version of previous combat with the addition of being able to counter with more than just weapons.

But a counter is a counter, a disarm is a disarm.

Variety would be more like simply using the rope dart which allows you to knock an enemy down quickly.

I may be a fan of this series but I do not easily digest similarity for too long. It might have been ignore in 3 for me if 3 hadn't made the changes that I explained why I dislike but it did and for that reason I find it worse off.

As you said though in 4 it's much worse which is among the top reasons I also dislike 4. They made the combat even worse.

Fatal-Feit
08-22-2014, 12:35 PM
I made a list for a more organized debate. I'll make this reply short and quick, and be done with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------


You can still kill them with tools. They can be taken down quickly if you want to do that.

Well, any enemy can be taken care of quickly with tools.


Doesn't fall under variety for me. It's a block. We've always been able to block. Now they just added it for guns it doesn't add variety it's something you HAVE to do or get your *** shot.

It kills an enemy in the process.

There's other methods of not getting shot. Like hiding behind an enemy, wall, tree, etc. Or running out of the way. Using your tools to interrupt is another method, as well.


Indeed it is but that's an opinion of mine that won't change. I was pretty exasperated with the game play and then 3 made it worse for me instead of better.

Let's hope Unity satisfies us both.


I'm not talking about what I do in game, merely pointing out how it's easy whatever way you do it and ends up as tedious as ever imo.

Not tedious, IMO. Counter in the earlier iterations were more tedious.


What about it? I was talking about how the timing isn't difficult and can be done easily.

Tools in neither games required good timing.


A tool counter is the same as any other counter, just with a different animation. That's false variety cause it doesn't have an impact on game play, just the animations.

Tool-counter bypasses brutes, officers, and Jagers immunity to normal counter kills.


It's poor balance in a combat system that's still mindlessly easy. There's no sense in trying to make it more difficult if you don't actually make it difficult. I would have preferred they copy AC1 and not allow it to attack in combat if they wanted to make it unfeasible in combat.

A lot of people found AC:3's combat to be a perfect balance of difficulty. Especially since it's also not exploitable like Brotherhood's. It was a fair adjustment, not one in vain.


No AC2's window is smaller and more particular, in ACB you can press really early or really late. ACB and ACR windows are more similar not exactly but not different enough for me to go on about.


I've already explained WHY I feel they're repetitive/bad/bland. Indeed this is a series so you're damn right at some point I expect far more than more of the same or a meager attempt to move up that somehow fails and retains many of the same issues.


It's hardly variety, it's nice to have don't get me wrong but it all leads to killing something after you disarm it. It's just a different animation.

Of course all the killings have different animations in combat... :rolleyes:


You'll notice I never mentioned the hook blade, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up, I'm not such a fool that I would come on here and try to claim that the hook blade offers variety in combat, it doesn't do **** in combat. So stop mentioning it already as if I'm arguing it as the king of variety, I haven't even mentioned it till now.

Those "different" range attacks all function too similarly to old stuff for me to not feel them as reskins especially when the combat is basically an easier version of previous combat with the addition of being able to counter with more than just weapons.

But a counter is a counter, a disarm is a disarm.

Variety would be more like simply using the rope dart which allows you to knock an enemy down quickly.

I may be a fan of this series but I do not easily digest similarity for too long. It might have been ignore in 3 for me if 3 hadn't made the changes that I explained why I dislike but it did and for that reason I find it worse off.

As you said though in 4 it's much worse which is among the top reasons I also dislike 4. They made the combat even worse.

Our original argument is that the previous AC, AC:R specifically, has more variety. If you take loot-counter and hook-counter away, you really don't have all that much variety in comparison. That is why I keep mentioning them. You also brought it back with the hidden blade, so.

Okay, so your definition of variety are ways of killing. Well, I made a list for that. Let's end this and add onto it. :p